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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

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    Austin

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:43 am

    A nice FireArm FAQ

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:01 am

    Repeats the old myth about looser tolerances making the AK more reliable but less accurate than other western rifles.

    This is BS.

    Take a modern AK and you will find the tolerances are not loose... nothing rattles. It is designed to operate with excess energy so if the weapon is dirty the mass of the bolt carrier is something like 5 times more than the mass of the bolt so it has plenty of energy to cycle the action no matter how dirty the weapon is.

    The only issue regarding accuracy with the old AK was that the heavy projectile wasn't travelling very fast so it has a fairly curved trajectory... especially past 300m. From 300m to 400m the bullet drop is something like 1m so if you aim centre chest at a target that is 400m away with the sights set to the battle sight position of 300m then your bullet will be hitting their feet or in rough uneven ground the dirt in front of them.

    What is important however is that at any range up to about 340m you can aim for the chest and get a good hit.

    At 300m with the sights set for 300m, then if the target is 10m in front of you you will hit them a few centimetres above the centre chest aimpoint. At about 100m you will get a low head shot with a central chest aimpoint. At 150m you will get a centre face head shot, and at 200m you will get a throat hit. At 250m you will get an upper chest hit and at 300m you will get a central chest hit. At about 340m you will likely get a gut shot.

    All with the same 300m battle setting using a centre chest aim point in an emergency you should get a decent hit on a target.

    Once beyond 300m the bullet starts to fall rapidly however and range to target becomes vital to get a clean hit.

    Smaller faster rounds don't drop as much and make getting hits easier at longer ranges because range estimation errors influence the impact point less.

    With accurate range to target information the 7.62 x 39mm is no worse than 5.56... in fact it is rather heavier so it retains energy and is less effected by cross winds or less likely to be deflected by light cover.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:19 pm

    The only really flaw about Russian subsonic armor piercers is that even their 'best' subsonic round for the VSSK (12.7 mm) can't penetrate the best armor that is used throughout the world (NIJ class IV or GOST class VI).
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:49 am

    Is it really a flaw?
    It all comes down to a trade off... the heaviest body armours are very tiring to wear all the time and so are often reserved for explosive ordinance disposal and mine clearance and many types of body armour have weak areas... maximum protection for the chest area for example.
    A 50 cal round to the gut, or taking off an arm or leg is still a life threatening injury... and of course a round to the head will likely be fatal unless it is a glancing blow.
    A full power high velocity 12.7mm armour piercing round should penetrate any body armour at a wide range of combat ranges when being quiet is not important any more of course.
    Even MRAP vehicles are not safe any more...
    ...the Russians are developing a single shot bolt action 30mm weapon for use against MRAP vehicles and at a stretch I suspect it could also be used against the most heavily protected enemy soldiers.

    The other option of course that most units available to them will be an RPG launcher with large thermobaric warheads that kill by crushing rather than penetrating.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:47 pm

    Actually, yes. If your goal is to design a suppressed heavy body armor penetrator that can be used by your Special Forces, than it damn well better penetrate the best vests that everyone uses. AFAIK, people who do buy body armor either purchase NIJ class IIIA (good for shotgun and pistols) or NIJ class IV (good for 7.62 AP sniper rounds). For the former you can use the VSK but for the latter the VSSK won't cut it.

    And really, if your solution is to use a TGB-7V v.s. "heavy body armor" than why even develop the VSSK? IMO, instead of developing a 30 mm round for sniper rifles, Russia should just develop sabot penetrators for smaller calibers, like the 12.7 mm SLAP or the 25 mm APDS that we have, which can both penetrate MRAPs as they are.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 01, 2011 1:45 am

    Actually, yes. If your goal is to design a suppressed heavy body armor
    penetrator that can be used by your Special Forces, than it damn well
    better penetrate the best vests that everyone uses.

    You seem to be missing an important factor... these weapons have to be quiet... they are suppressed sniper rifles that can handle most targets out to extended ranges.
    They can defeat the heaviest body armour by aiming for the legs or face... a 50 cal bullet though thigh is lethal fairly quickly without medical attention if it hits the main artery there.
    I would also point out that the heaviest body armour is actually very heavy and generally only offers full protection to the chest area so a shot to the side or gut will still likely penetrate.

    AFAIK, people who do buy body armor either purchase NIJ class IIIA (good
    for shotgun and pistols) or NIJ class IV (good for 7.62 AP sniper
    rounds). For the former you can use the VSK but for the latter the VSSK
    won't cut it.

    In which case a 50 cal sniper rifle that uses full power ammo like the OSN-96 would be used in that unlikely event.

    And really, if your solution is to use a TGB-7V v.s. "heavy body armor" than why even develop the VSSK?

    Sure, you don't understand the concept of using the tools you have... I am sure western special forces will see the enemy guards have heavy body armour and realise their VSSKs wont penetrate so they will just give up and go home without trying anything else. Rolling Eyes
    Russian special forces on the other hand will want to get the job done even if it means they have to sneak right up and use a knife to cut the guards throat.... or if they can't get that close because of open terrain batter them to death with a HE rocket.

    IMO, instead of developing a 30 mm round for sniper rifles, Russia
    should just develop sabot penetrators for smaller calibers, like the
    12.7 mm SLAP or the 25 mm APDS that we have, which can both penetrate
    MRAPs as they are.

    They already have SLAP type rounds according to western experts I respect. And the 30mm round is their standard 30mm round... not a new development, so in that sense they are basically using a 25mm portable gun... except their gun is rather more powerful and carries a more significant HE payload.
    The development of this new gun I suspect will result in an APHE round being developed because the effect of a single shot Sabot round would be pretty weak unless you are actually targeting the driver or a specific location of the target like the engine. An APHE round would be much more effective at injuring or killing the occupants of light armoured vehicles in a package that is light and portable for special forces. The same ammo is used by all branches of the Russian military so ammo resupply should not be a problem.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun May 01, 2011 5:35 am

    [quote="GarryB"]
    Actually, yes. If your goal is to design a suppressed heavy body armor
    penetrator that can be used by your Special Forces, than it damn well
    better penetrate the best vests that everyone uses.

    You seem to be missing an important factor... these weapons have to be quiet... they are suppressed sniper rifles that can handle most targets out to extended ranges.
    They can defeat the heaviest body armour by aiming for the legs or face... a 50 cal bullet though thigh is lethal fairly quickly without medical attention if it hits the main artery there.
    I would also point out that the heaviest body armour is actually very heavy and generally only offers full protection to the chest area so a shot to the side or gut will still likely penetrate.

    I am not missing the suppressed factor of the VSSK, I am simply stating that as it is now, it cannot do it's job which is effective and silenced penetration of heavy body armor. What they should do is up the bullet's weight even more to keep in lieu with it's suppression requirement.

    AFAIK, people who do buy body armor either purchase NIJ class IIIA (good
    for shotgun and pistols) or NIJ class IV (good for 7.62 AP sniper
    rounds). For the former you can use the VSK but for the latter the VSSK
    won't cut it.

    In which case a 50 cal sniper rifle that uses full power ammo like the OSN-96 would be used in that unlikely event.

    That'd blow the Special unit's cover.

    And really, if your solution is to use a TGB-7V v.s. "heavy body armor" than why even develop the VSSK?

    Sure, you don't understand the concept of using the tools you have... I am sure western special forces will see the enemy guards have heavy body armour and realise their VSSKs wont penetrate so they will just give up and go home without trying anything else. Rolling Eyes
    Russian special forces on the other hand will want to get the job done even if it means they have to sneak right up and use a knife to cut the guards throat.... or if they can't get that close because of open terrain batter them to death with a HE rocket.

    Of course, the Russians always try to be cinematic but perhaps they've missed the idea if their gun designers wanted a suppressed heavy armor penetrator that doesn't actually penetrate the armor people actually wear. It'd be smarter to actually make a suppressed gun/ammo that can penetrate said armor while still maintaining the suppressed factor in it, instead of just being all gung ho and blowing shit up.

    IMO, instead of developing a 30 mm round for sniper rifles, Russia
    should just develop sabot penetrators for smaller calibers, like the
    12.7 mm SLAP or the 25 mm APDS that we have, which can both penetrate
    MRAPs as they are.

    They already have SLAP type rounds according to western experts I respect. And the 30mm round is their standard 30mm round... not a new development, so in that sense they are basically using a 25mm portable gun... except their gun is rather more powerful and carries a more significant HE payload.
    The development of this new gun I suspect will result in an APHE round being developed because the effect of a single shot Sabot round would be pretty weak unless you are actually targeting the driver or a specific location of the target like the engine. An APHE round would be much more effective at injuring or killing the occupants of light armoured vehicles in a package that is light and portable for special forces. The same ammo is used by all branches of the Russian military so ammo resupply should not be a problem.

    No, they don't. AFAIK, the only Russian small caliber that has a sabot is the 30 mm variant. I am talking 12.7 mm - 25 mm calibers. For example, the .50 SLAP that we have can penetrate over 34 mm of steel at 500 m, which is slightly more than the 14.5x114 mm B-32 API round can penetrate at 500 m. In fact, the 25 mm M919 APDS round can penetrate more than the 30x165 mm APDS round that the Russians use, 62 mm compared to 50 mm at 1.5 km.

    Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a 14.5 mm HMG rolling around spraying tungsten penetrators.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 05, 2011 8:18 am

    The VKS (VSSK) was developed for the FSB, not the Russian Military and its purpose was to defeat targets in cars or those wearing body armour.

    According to this page:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/rus/vks-vssk-vychlop-e.html

    Particularly this:
    High penetration bullet can defeat Russian Class 5 (US NIJ Type III /
    High-Powered Rifle) body armor at 100 meters or 16mm steel plate at 200
    meters.

    It meets the requirements set for it.

    That'd blow the Special unit's cover.

    Or they can take head shots...

    Of course, the Russians always try to be cinematic but perhaps they've
    missed the idea if their gun designers wanted a suppressed heavy armor
    penetrator that doesn't actually penetrate the armor people actually
    wear.

    And how many people actually wear body armour capable of stopping 7.62mm armour piercing ammo on a regular basis?

    It'd be smarter to actually make a suppressed gun/ammo that can
    penetrate said armor while still maintaining the suppressed factor in
    it, instead of just being all gung ho and blowing shit up.

    Of course. They turn up to the target area and see the targets are all sitting in M1 Abrams tanks so they quickly increase the bullet mass of the rounds in their guns and fire quietly.

    If for some reason the VKS rounds are not penetrating then the people not being killed will likely be shouting that there is an attack under way... in such a situation being quiet is no longer a problem is it and a single quite loud shot from a 50 cal rifle firing supersonic AP ammo suddenly makes sense... because if you can't be quiet you can over power them with heavy fire power.

    No, they don't. AFAIK, the only Russian small caliber that has a sabot
    is the 30 mm variant. I am talking 12.7 mm - 25 mm calibers.

    You believe that do you?

    So they will make a 12.7 x 54mm round especially for special forces use to take down targets with body armour, and they will develop and issue a 9 x 39mm round and assault and sniper rifles to fire it for recon units within motor rifle units, but they wont develop a simple round similar to the 50 cal SLAP round...

    Again I say it is interesting that you think that.

    For example, the .50 SLAP that we have can penetrate over 34 mm of steel
    at 500 m, which is slightly more than the 14.5x114 mm B-32 API round
    can penetrate at 500 m.

    And a Russian 50 cal SLAP round has similar performance because it is a very similar round, but imagine the performance of a 14.5mm SLAP round...

    In fact, the 25 mm M919 APDS round can penetrate more than the 30x165 mm
    APDS round that the Russians use, 62 mm compared to 50 mm at 1.5 km.

    Would be amused to see where you got those figures from. The 25 x 137 is hardly the biggest cannon round around... especially compared with the 30 x 165 Russian round.

    Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a 14.5 mm HMG rolling around spraying tungsten penetrators.

    SLAP rounds don't make sense with machine guns... a SLAP round has high velocity and low drag so there is little point firing it out of the same tube you are also firing ball and HE rounds out of because no two shots would land in the same firing range...
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat May 14, 2011 9:23 am

    GarryB wrote:The VKS (VSSK) was developed for the FSB, not the Russian Military and its purpose was to defeat targets in cars or those wearing body armour.

    According to this page:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/rus/vks-vssk-vychlop-e.html

    Particularly this:
    High penetration bullet can defeat Russian Class 5 (US NIJ Type III /
    High-Powered Rifle) body armor at 100 meters or 16mm steel plate at 200
    meters.

    It meets the requirements set for it.

    ...I'm not talking about meeting the Designer's requirements, I'm talking about meeting real life requirements. Like I've said, you're seldom to find a guy wearing anything other than a NIJ class IIIA or NIJ class IV vest/plate out there. The VSSK therefore, will usually fail to do it's role.

    That'd blow the Special unit's cover.

    Or they can take head shots...

    So the question goes down to, "If I design a gun that can't penetrate that guy's armor, why make the gun at all?" Not to mention that the VSSK is not special purpose because it can do headshots, which most guns can anyways.

    Of course, the Russians always try to be cinematic but perhaps they've
    missed the idea if their gun designers wanted a suppressed heavy armor
    penetrator that doesn't actually penetrate the armor people actually
    wear.

    And how many people actually wear body armour capable of stopping 7.62mm armour piercing ammo on a regular basis?

    Every competent professional army's infantryman does.

    It'd be smarter to actually make a suppressed gun/ammo that can
    penetrate said armor while still maintaining the suppressed factor in
    it, instead of just being all gung ho and blowing shit up.

    Of course. They turn up to the target area and see the targets are all sitting in M1 Abrams tanks so they quickly increase the bullet mass of the rounds in their guns and fire quietly.

    If for some reason the VKS rounds are not penetrating then the people not being killed will likely be shouting that there is an attack under way... in such a situation being quiet is no longer a problem is it and a single quite loud shot from a 50 cal rifle firing supersonic AP ammo suddenly makes sense... because if you can't be quiet you can over power them with heavy fire power.

    But then you've again missed the point. The point of the VSSK is supposed to allow a quiet entry into some compound while dealing with Heavy-body armor equipped soldiers. If all they had to do was do headshots then why not just give them a VSK instead? If everyone started rolling around in tanks then again, the VSSK designers have missed the point. But because no one actually does, they've still missed the point.

    No, they don't. AFAIK, the only Russian small caliber that has a sabot
    is the 30 mm variant. I am talking 12.7 mm - 25 mm calibers.

    You believe that do you?

    So they will make a 12.7 x 54mm round especially for special forces use to take down targets with body armour, and they will develop and issue a 9 x 39mm round and assault and sniper rifles to fire it for recon units within motor rifle units, but they wont develop a simple round similar to the 50 cal SLAP round...

    Again I say it is interesting that you think that.

    Well, do they? Prove to me they do, pictures, text, links etc. Until then they don't.

    For example, the .50 SLAP that we have can penetrate over 34 mm of steel
    at 500 m, which is slightly more than the 14.5x114 mm B-32 API round
    can penetrate at 500 m.

    And a Russian 50 cal SLAP round has similar performance because it is a very similar round, but imagine the performance of a 14.5mm SLAP round...

    That's what I'm saying, Russia needs SLAP rounds! Of course, they haven't got that far yet in their thinking.

    In fact, the 25 mm M919 APDS round can penetrate more than the 30x165 mm
    APDS round that the Russians use, 62 mm compared to 50 mm at 1.5 km.

    Would be amused to see where you got those figures from. The 25 x 137 is hardly the biggest cannon round around... especially compared with the 30 x 165 Russian round.

    You don't know what a APFSDS DU can do then.

    http://collinsj.tripod.com/protect.htm

    At the very bottom.

    And from a "certain tank forum":

    25x137 Oerlikon APDS - 30mm/60°/1000m, 25mm/60°/2000m
    25x137 Oerlikon APFSDS - 36mm/60mm°/1000m, 31mm/60°/2000m
    25x137 Alliant APFSDS FANG - 31mm/60°/2000m

    Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing a 14.5 mm HMG rolling around spraying tungsten penetrators.

    SLAP rounds don't make sense with machine guns... a SLAP round has high velocity and low drag so there is little point firing it out of the same tube you are also firing ball and HE rounds out of because no two shots would land in the same firing range...

    It makes sense for penetrating light vehicles or light armor. There were exactually many penetrations recorded by 12.7 mm SLAP rounds used during the Gulf Wars v.s. ancient Soviet tanks.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 15, 2011 6:55 am

    ...I'm not talking about meeting the Designer's requirements, I'm talking about meeting real life requirements. Like I've said, you're seldom to find a guy wearing anything other than a NIJ class IIIA or NIJ class IV vest/plate out there. The VSSK therefore, will usually fail to do it's role.

    It is a sniper rifle for cops they will rarely shoot military personel and they will never shoot at more than 300m or so.

    For this role the VSSK is fine.

    So the question goes down to, "If I design a gun that can't penetrate that guy's armor, why make the gun at all?" Not to mention that the VSSK is not special purpose because it can do headshots, which most guns can anyways.

    Its primary use will be chest shots against criminals but the guy shooting is hardly a moron. The heavier body armour is bulky and can't be hidden under normal clothes so a civilian in normal clothes will be shot in the chest. A civilian with heavy body armour will be shot in the head or perhaps the gut where there will be less protection even on the heaviest body armour.

    Every competent professional army's infantryman does.

    Why would FSB be shooting army personnel?


    The point of the VSSK is supposed to allow a quiet entry into some compound while dealing with Heavy-body armor equipped soldiers.

    No it isn't. It is for FSB and police use against crime gangs running drugs or some such thing. Some have started using light body armour under their civilian clothes so the FSB asked for a heavy quiet weapon to take down purps that are wearing body armour.


    Well, do they? Prove to me they do, pictures, text, links etc. Until then they don't.



    China makes HEI and APDS-T loadings for the 14.5mm. The designation for the latter is DGJ-02 and it fires a tungsten-cored 43.9g projectile at 1,250 m/s (the .50 SLAP tracer fires a 26.9g proj at 1,173 m/s).

    Tony Williams: post #38 on this thread: http://www.russiadefence.net/post?t=870&mode=reply


    That's what I'm saying, Russia needs SLAP rounds! Of course, they haven't got that far yet in their thinking.

    You admit that US 50 cal SLAP rounds provide only slightly better AP performance at 500m than the existing 14.5mm AP round.
    Why exactly does it need a SLAP round again?

    Second... as I said SLAP rounds are small calibre high velocity rounds with completely different trajectories than standard velocity standard drag rounds.

    The KPV HMG is a belt fed weapon... if you mix SLAP rounds with standard rounds how do you zero the gun? If you zero to the standard rounds the SLAP rounds will miss and vice versa. The KPV has an effective AP round and an effective HE round already... there is no advantage to firing a SLAP round with it except for very specialist uses.


    You don't know what a APFSDS DU can do then.

    I know exactly what nuclear waste can do, I also know that if you need more penetration from a weapon rather than scatter nuclear waste on the battlefield it makes rather more sense to go in calibre instead.

    In the 1990s the Russians are known to have tested a new 45mm calibre weapon and it has also been revealed that a 57mm round is being worked on for BMP use.

    Might come as a shock to you but the vast majority of battlefield targets are better dealt with using HE than with AP ammo... and that will not change any time soon.

    BTW listed armour penetration figures are like AAM missile range figures... there are plenty of factors that will effect performance in the real world.

    It makes sense for penetrating light vehicles or light armor. There were exactually many penetrations recorded by 12.7 mm SLAP rounds used during the Gulf Wars v.s. ancient Soviet tanks.

    Do you think those penetrations were from machineguns or from 50 cal rifles?
    Current standard in service Russian APCs include the BTR-80 and BTR-80A which are armed with 14.5mm and 30mm calibre weapons respectively. Most 12.7mm HMGs are air protection weapons mounted on the turrets of tanks.

    The SLAPs I have read about in 12.7 x 108mm will be used from 12.7mm calibre rifles and will likely be directed at weak spots on armoured vehicles. Firing them from machineguns only makes sense if that is the only ammo being fired from that machinegun due to ballistic matching issues.

    Very simply you fire a belt of ball, AP, and HE rounds at a target at 1,000m and they will all strike the target area around the same point. Add SLAP ammo to the belt and the ball and AP and HE rounds will strike around the same point at 1,000m and the high velocity low drag SLAP round will strike about 50 metres high and miss the target area completely.
    Firing it with all SLAP rounds doesn't make sense because for non armoured targets SLAP rounds are not particularly effective and for most targets the standard rounds are already good enough.

    From a Russian perspective if you want SLAP performance in an MG use a 14.5mm gun.
    If you want to exploit weak spots on an armoured vehicle then a Slap round through a rifle makes more sense... and according to Anthony Williams the Chinese make 14.5mm SLAP rounds... I remember reading in Rapid Fire somewhere that they make SLAP type rounds for their rifles in 12.7mm calibre.

    As I have said SLAP rounds for russian 12.7mm MGs doesn't make sense because most are for infantry support or mounted on tanks... if enemy armour is a problem the 125mm gun or RPGs of an enormous range of types makes more sense than a round with a completely different zero. With a rifle you can have a seperate setting for a SLAP round... so they have a 12.7mm Slap round.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon May 16, 2011 12:37 am

    [quote="GarryB"]
    ...I'm not talking about meeting the Designer's requirements, I'm talking about meeting real life requirements. Like I've said, you're seldom to find a guy wearing anything other than a NIJ class IIIA or NIJ class IV vest/plate out there. The VSSK therefore, will usually fail to do it's role.

    It is a sniper rifle for cops they will rarely shoot military personel and they will never shoot at more than 300m or so.

    For this role the VSSK is fine.

    If I'm a bad guy and I'm going to do something that warrants cops with VSSKs shooting at me I'd wear something more than plain Kevlar and probably an inch or so of ballistic steel in front of it; which would make it a hillbilly NIJ class IV package.

    So the question goes down to, "If I design a gun that can't penetrate that guy's armor, why make the gun at all?" Not to mention that the VSSK is not special purpose because it can do headshots, which most guns can anyways.

    Its primary use will be chest shots against criminals but the guy shooting is hardly a moron. The heavier body armour is bulky and can't be hidden under normal clothes so a civilian in normal clothes will be shot in the chest. A civilian with heavy body armour will be shot in the head or perhaps the gut where there will be less protection even on the heaviest body armour.

    Then the question again goes to, "Why design such a gun anyways?" The VSK can penetrate NIJ class IIIA vests just fine, and those vests aren't backed by Ballistic plates. "Heavy body armor" are almost always backed by a Ballistic plate, so if the goal of the VSSK is to do the job of the VSK, then why not just use the VSK instead? It's simply inadequate for it's job, the VSSK.

    Every competent professional army's infantryman does.

    Why would FSB be shooting army personnel?

    The FSB is Russia's new KGB, you'd expect some sort of James Bondy mission into some South American jungle-country, lots of explosions and lots of bad guys with big vests and large guns shooting at you.


    The point of the VSSK is supposed to allow a quiet entry into some compound while dealing with Heavy-body armor equipped soldiers.

    No it isn't. It is for FSB and police use against crime gangs running drugs or some such thing. Some have started using light body armour under their civilian clothes so the FSB asked for a heavy quiet weapon to take down purps that are wearing body armour.

    For light armor they have the VSK, that's warranted. For heavy armor they use the VSSK, which won't penetrate the "heavy armor" that's most likely going to be used.


    Well, do they? Prove to me they do, pictures, text, links etc. Until then they don't.


    China makes HEI and APDS-T loadings for the 14.5mm. The designation for the latter is DGJ-02 and it fires a tungsten-cored 43.9g projectile at 1,250 m/s (the .50 SLAP tracer fires a 26.9g proj at 1,173 m/s).

    Tony Williams: post #38 on this thread: http://www.russiadefence.net/post?t=870&mode=reply

    *link doesn't work

    Not to mention that China =/= Russia and that the .50 SLAP actually weighs about 23 grams and goes 1219 meters per second.

    That's what I'm saying, Russia needs SLAP rounds! Of course, they haven't got that far yet in their thinking.

    You admit that US 50 cal SLAP rounds provide only slightly better AP performance at 500m than the existing 14.5mm AP round.
    Why exactly does it need a SLAP round again?

    Second... as I said SLAP rounds are small calibre high velocity rounds with completely different trajectories than standard velocity standard drag rounds.

    The KPV HMG is a belt fed weapon... if you mix SLAP rounds with standard rounds how do you zero the gun? If you zero to the standard rounds the SLAP rounds will miss and vice versa. The KPV has an effective AP round and an effective HE round already... there is no advantage to firing a SLAP round with it except for very specialist uses.

    But like I've said, the 14.5 mm AP round is also a much more kinetically potent round, while the .50 SLAP is only different in penetrator design. For reference, the .50 AP can only penetrate 19 mm of steel at 500 m, compared to the 34 mm of steel that the .50 SLAP can penetrate at 500 m. That's an 80% improvement! Imagine what a 14.5 mm SLAP can do, and for another reference, the .50 Ball has about 18 kj of muzzle energy, compared to the 32 kj of muzzle energy from the 14.5x114 mm BZ AP.


    You don't know what a APFSDS DU can do then.

    I know exactly what nuclear waste can do, I also know that if you need more penetration from a weapon rather than scatter nuclear waste on the battlefield it makes rather more sense to go in calibre instead.

    In the 1990s the Russians are known to have tested a new 45mm calibre weapon and it has also been revealed that a 57mm round is being worked on for BMP use.

    Might come as a shock to you but the vast majority of battlefield targets are better dealt with using HE than with AP ammo... and that will not change any time soon.

    BTW listed armour penetration figures are like AAM missile range figures... there are plenty of factors that will effect performance in the real world.

    You can always use WC.

    It makes sense for penetrating light vehicles or light armor. There were exactually many penetrations recorded by 12.7 mm SLAP rounds used during the Gulf Wars v.s. ancient Soviet tanks.

    Do you think those penetrations were from machineguns or from 50 cal rifles?
    Current standard in service Russian APCs include the BTR-80 and BTR-80A which are armed with 14.5mm and 30mm calibre weapons respectively. Most 12.7mm HMGs are air protection weapons mounted on the turrets of tanks.

    The SLAPs I have read about in 12.7 x 108mm will be used from 12.7mm calibre rifles and will likely be directed at weak spots on armoured vehicles. Firing them from machineguns only makes sense if that is the only ammo being fired from that machinegun due to ballistic matching issues.

    Very simply you fire a belt of ball, AP, and HE rounds at a target at 1,000m and they will all strike the target area around the same point. Add SLAP ammo to the belt and the ball and AP and HE rounds will strike around the same point at 1,000m and the high velocity low drag SLAP round will strike about 50 metres high and miss the target area completely.
    Firing it with all SLAP rounds doesn't make sense because for non armoured targets SLAP rounds are not particularly effective and for most targets the standard rounds are already good enough.

    From a Russian perspective if you want SLAP performance in an MG use a 14.5mm gun.
    If you want to exploit weak spots on an armoured vehicle then a Slap round through a rifle makes more sense... and according to Anthony Williams the Chinese make 14.5mm SLAP rounds... I remember reading in Rapid Fire somewhere that they make SLAP type rounds for their rifles in 12.7mm calibre.

    As I have said SLAP rounds for russian 12.7mm MGs doesn't make sense because most are for infantry support or mounted on tanks... if enemy armour is a problem the 125mm gun or RPGs of an enormous range of types makes more sense than a round with a completely different zero. With a rifle you can have a seperate setting for a SLAP round... so they have a 12.7mm Slap round.


    There were actually cases of T-55s getting penetrated in their backs by .50 SLAP. With a 14.5mm SLAP you can probably penetrate the back parts of T-64s. They're essentially useful when the Soviet zerg-tank armies are your main enemy and you don't want to waste your Main Gun rounds on them, and so you just kill them with SLAP fire.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 16, 2011 5:22 am

    If I'm a bad guy and I'm going to do something that warrants cops with VSSKs shooting at me I'd wear something more than plain Kevlar and probably an inch or so of ballistic steel in front of it; which would make it a hillbilly NIJ class IV package.

    The VSSK was developed to deal with a specific threat in a specific scenario.

    If the target is wearing heavy body armour then the FSB have BTR-80s with 14.5mm HMGs so that isn't going to be a problem. If the target presents themselves and are clearly wearing heavy body armour then shots to the head with the VSSK sniper rifle will be used to take the felon down. If it is not clear they are wearing body armour then shots to the chest will be normal. If the criminal turns up in an MRAP then RPGs and high velocity 12.7mm calibre rifles and 30mm weapons will come in to play.

    Funny thing is that the western forces don't have anything like VSSK in service... what do they do?

    It's simply inadequate for it's job, the VSSK.


    Typical targets for the VKS are combatants in heavy body armor or behind covers

    SC-130VPS (СЦ-130ВПС) - increased penetration (76 gram bullet). Armour penetration : 16 mm of steel at 200 meters, or a heavy body armor at 100 meters.

    High penetration bullet can defeat Russian Class 5 (US NIJ Type III / High-Powered Rifle) body armor at 100 meters or 16mm steel plate at 200 meters.



    The FSB is Russia's new KGB, you'd expect some sort of James Bondy mission into some South American jungle-country, lots of explosions and lots of bad guys with big vests and large guns shooting at you.

    Hahaha... you are funny. A flechette round coated in quick acting poison aimed at the targets belly would make rather more sense as it would easily penetrate soft armour.

    For light armor they have the VSK, that's warranted. For heavy armor they use the VSSK, which won't penetrate the "heavy armor" that's most likely going to be used.

    You are the only one saying it wont penetrate heavy armour.





    *link doesn't work


    http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=29373&st=20

    Not to mention that China =/= Russia and that the .50 SLAP actually weighs about 23 grams and goes 1219 meters per second.

    You are talking about 25mm APFSDS ammo that is not American and with no proof any of it is even in service.

    That's an 80% improvement! Imagine what a 14.5 mm SLAP can do, and for another reference, the .50 Ball has about 18 kj of muzzle energy, compared to the 32 kj of muzzle energy from the 14.5x114 mm BZ AP.

    So they already get SLAP performance from their standard APC mounted HMG why bother wasting money and time and effort on a round that they can't use on their machine guns without a fire control system and a dual feed weapon?

    Like I said the 14.5mm gun fires from a belt of ammo and that ammo includes a mix of different types of rounds that can be varied based on the type of threat expected.
    If the target is armoured to the level that standard 14.5mm ammo wont penetrate then it makes rather more sense to use an RPG or Metis-M1.

    Adding a 14.5mm SLAP round to their BTRs and BRDMs would be really dumb... as I said they would not be ballistically matched so you either have a separate belt of the stuff with a separate zero setting or you miss the target... in which case the 80% improvement in penetration means nothing.

    Metis-M1 has much better range than SLAP rounds.

    You can always use WC.

    And in larger calibres it makes more sense... their 30mm 2A72 and 2A42 cannon are dual feed weapons so you can have one belt of HE and one belt of sabot rounds with the fire control system allowing for the completely different trajectory of each round.

    In 45mm and 57mm calibres the same applies.

    In 14.5mm and 12.7mm it simply doesn't make any sense at all.

    Like I said the Russians are believe to have a SLAP round for the 12.7 x 108mm round because they use that ammo in rifles. In a belt fed weapon it would be useless except when used as the only round type in the belt which reduces the effectiveness of the weapon in some roles.

    The Chinese clearly have a 14.5mm rifle as they are developing SLAP rounds for it as well.

    There were actually cases of T-55s getting penetrated in their backs by .50 SLAP. With a 14.5mm SLAP you can probably penetrate the back parts of T-64s.

    With standard 14.5mm rounds you can penetrate the rear of pretty much any tank so there is little point in bothering.

    BTW a few years back a European company made an anti material rifle based on the 14.5mm round though they necked it out to 15mm calibre and they were getting 40mm penetration at 1,000m or so.

    Nobody bought it.

    Despite its performance it is a very specialist weapon with a single role.

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/at/steyr-iws-2000-e.html

    Personally I like the NTW-20 better and think if the Russians did need a heavy anti armour rifle that a rifle like this would be better:

    http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/safr/mechem-ntw-20-e.html

    Except instead of having 14.5mm and 20mm barrels it could combine a 14.5mm rifled barrel, a 14.5mm smoothbore barrel specially for SLAP like rounds and a 23 x 114mm barrel. The 23 x 114mm round was created by taking a 14.5 x 114mm anti tank rifle shell case and fitting it with the 23mm cannon shell of the 23 x 152mm gun used in the Il-2 Shturmovik. It is a low velocity round with a big warhead that would have the punch of an automatic grenade launcher but a much shorter flight time to targets at extended ranges... 4-5km should be possible.

    They're essentially useful when the Soviet zerg-tank armies are your main enemy and you don't want to waste your Main Gun rounds on them, and so you just kill them with SLAP fire.

    But isn't that part of the problem... a SLAP 50 or 57 calibre round might damage a tanks engine but it wont kill it... it will just make it angry.
    Makes rather more sense to put a larger calibre shell in the rear of the turret.

    SLAP might work well on ancient Soviet Armour but with modern heavier armour practises plus anti spall liners and personal body armour... for most HMGs it is not worth the effort and for use with rifles... well I have never seen a solid bronze round for a Russian 12.7 x 108mm rifle but they use them for specialist rifles like the VKS.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:49 am

    Austin on another thread provided a link to a magazine website that had an article about various Russian programs for their new infantry combat systems that talked about new kit.

    None of them mentioned plans beyond about 2010 and none mentioned any future Kalashnikov rifle but it did mention a new standard optical sight that was to be used on the AKs.

    The new sight is called UT-1M XD4 and is a multi purpose sight. It can be used as a monocular or attached to a headset as a night vision goggle, or attached to a rifle as a rifle sight.

    It is designed to have low magnification so a magnification lens can be mounted in front of it so you can mount the UT-1M XD4 on your rifle and zero it and if you need to shoot at extended distances a x3 or x5 lens can be fitted in front of it to allow shooting at extended ranges like this:



    Note there are two scopes on the same mount... in this case a day sight that is zeroed as normal and the other is a night scope that amplifies available light so the shooter can see in the dark.

    Here is an image of the UT-1M XD4 sight itself:



    This is a night vision monocular that can be hand held, mounted to a mask or helmet, or attached to a rifle as a scope.

    I guess we can assume that after Ratnik infantry soldier equipment set that the next system will have components of FELIN included as well as the AK-200 in some form or another.

    I did read on one website speculation that the AK-200 might be a multi calibre system but I rather doubt it.

    In the field a multicalibre system would likely not be as useful as it sounds for the Russians.

    For a western unit that is largely all 5.56mm ammo then the ability to change a rifle to allow a 7.62 x 51mm ammo to be used might be very useful, but Russian units already have SVDS or SVD rifles available.

    Equally if they wanted to be flexible and change between 5.45 and 7.62 x 39 then the flexibility would not be that useful either because the weight and complexity of having to carry different barrels and different bolts and different magazines becomes a problem along with the possibility of loading 5.45mm ammo into a 7.62 x 39mm chamber might be a safety issue.

    It is far easier to simply issue AK-74M rifles and AK-105 carbines and RPK-74M light machine guns to units using 5.45mm ammo, and perhaps AK-103 7.62 x 39mm rifles and AK-104 7.62 x 39mm carbines and RPK-74M 7.62 x 39mm light machine guns to units where the heavier round might be useful... like in heavy jungle or in polar fighting where the heavier round penetrates heavier clothing and snow better.

    Of course the idea of a new multi calibre design able to fire 5.45 x 39mm, 7.62 x 39mm, and 9 x 39mm ammo could be potentially very useful... especially if they have built in suppressors and perhaps are bullpups with built in grenade launchers...

    In an article in a magazine Austin has posted a link to here on this forum a company that makes ammo for the Russian military said they were told that by 2020 they wanted ammo and rifles 2 to 3 times more powerful and much more accurate at extended ranges.

    Bullpups make for long barrels while keeping the overall weapon size compact and handy, and offsets the forward weight of underbarrel grenade launchers and muzzle mounted suppressors.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:39 pm

    Some interesting guns seen recently , may be Garry can enlighten us

    Truvelo .50BMG


    http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4608/elberet545.64/0_63139_79b53d17_XXXL
    http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4406/elberet545.64/0_63127_42552646_XL.jpg
    http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/5906/elberet545.64/0_63138_fe30b438_XXXL
    http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/elberet545/view/405799?page=7
    http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/elberet545/view/405800?page=7
    http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/elberet545/view/405801?page=7

    http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/elberet545/album/146765/?&p=7
    http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/elberet545/album/146765/?&p=8
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:55 am

    Interesting... it is a South African 50 cal rifle designed for anti material use.

    They are likely using it for evaluation in comparison with domestic and foreign weapons to decide on which weapons to adopt.

    It is a 50 cal Browning Machine Gun calibre weapon, which some might find surprising but long range sniping has been a western obsession for decades, but there has been very little similar interest in the East till now.

    As a result there is a lot more match grade accurate long range ammo in 50 cal BMG than in the equivalent Russian/Soviet calibres.

    With investment and experience they could develop 12.7 x 108mm and 14.5 x 114mm ammo every bit as accurate as the western ammo but it is a relatively new development in Russia so good ammo will be scarce and expensive.

    Simply taking large calibre rounds off belts for HMGs is not good enough because their performance in accuracy terms will be mediocre at best except at very close range.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:52 pm

    Some news on Ak-200 induction and new weapons from scratch being built.

    Russia will replace the "Kalashnikov"
    http://lenta.ru/news/2011/07/08/newcarbine/

    Russian concern "Izhmash" began to develop a new machine differs from that of the Kalashnikov assault rifle . This was, according to ITAR-TASS , said Acting Director General of "Izhmash" Maxim Kuzyuk. According to him, the new machine "able to compete with modern analogues of small arms in the world." Under the program, the replacement of "Kalashnikov" will be created from scratch.

    Specifications promising machine Kuzyuk not specified. Meanwhile, "Izhmash" plans to continue producing and upgrading AK 200 series. According Kuzyuka which transmits RIA Novosti , upgraded machine will be more ergonomic, easy to use and accurate. In addition, a renewed arms will be modular, so that together with it will be possible to use the various options and systems of armaments.

    "We have an army, ground forces, special forces, and all of their demands. And create a platform that will perform various tasks and goals is our top priority," - said Kuzyuk.

    Russian forces began to buy Kalashnikovs for the 200 series in the spring of 2010. The volume of purchases of small arms is not specified. Currently, evaluation test machine conducts the Russian Defense Ministry, which plans to include in future programs of weapons of defense contracts.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:44 am

    Interesting.

    It seems they are talking about a brand new weapon system family to totally replace the Kalashnikov family.

    The AK-200 is an upgrade much like the T-90AM is an upgrade of the existing weapon, while this weapon is the Armata to the T-90AM.

    The new weapon will likely replace the AKS-74U, AK-105, AKS-74M, and RPK-74 in SMG, Carbine(compact Assault Rifle), Assault Rifle, and LMG roles if it is truly modular... there perhaps might even be a belt fed version in the LMG role.

    If it even can be changed to different calibres then the LMG model might even offer a GPMG role with a heavier calibre.

    They are developing the new weapon from scratch... I wonder if that includes new ammo?

    In the threads about future soldier stuff the propellent makers have said that they were approached by the Russian military with the requirements to make the ammo for Russian small arms 2.5-3 times "better".

    Russian forces began to buy Kalashnikovs for the 200 series in the spring of 2010.

    Calling the new AK the 200 series suggests they are repeating what they did for the AK-74M and upgraded their 7.62 x 39mm weapons and added 5.56mm weapons, so you would expect AK-201 through to AK-206, with standard barrel length and carbine models in 5.45, 5.56, and 7.62 x 39mm calibres. Perhaps even a RPK-207 and RPK-208 and RPK-209 for the three calibre model LMG versions of the AK-201.

    The real question is how ambitious will this new rifles design be... if it becomes very expensive or it wont be ready for 5 years or so then buying lots of AK-200 series weapons makes a lot of sense.

    Rifles get worn fairly quickly so you need a good stock of replacements to maintain operations and training so buying a few hundred thousand will probably be useful.

    Will be interesting.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  njb1 on Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:47 am

    Do we know if the Ak-200 has been displayed at the VTTV Omsk defence exhibition this year ?

    As regards the 'new' rifle its a very interesting development, my guess is they will at least look into a new calibre around 6mm and is more likey to contain a balanced recoil system then the AK-200 series.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:13 pm

    Keep in mind my suggestion of new ammo types is purely speculative.

    I suspect the AK-200 series will introduce picatinny rails all over the place, and should introduce a balanced recoil mechanism to improve full auto fire performance, and of course a 60 round magazine as standard.

    It is however limited as a overhaul of an existing type rather than from scratch complete redesign.

    The cost of a change of calibre would probably be rather too high... especially when the 5.45mm is actually an effective round that soldiers don't seem to be having problems with.

    I suspect if they do change a round it will be the rather old 7.62 x 54mm round first.

    By changing it into a 6.5mm calibre round with a 150 grain bullet at 850-900m/s using either a caseless round, or a cheap plastic case to reduce cost and waste they could probably reduce the weight of the round by 30% and also the size with a smaller charge of higher power powder.

    The new ADS rifle for the Marines and VDV is a bullpup with forward shell ejection like the A-91A so it can be fired left or right handed without any adjustment or change suggests perhaps the way forward. It is especially designed to fire standard 5.45mm ammo and special under water 5.45mm ammo with the flip of a switch.

    Regular units will not likely need underwater ammo, but issuing all troops with a standard rifle would make sense.

    Bullpup designs generally have the main problems of not being able to fire it left handed, and awkward reloads. With the forward ejection system of the ADS and the 60 round mags of the AK-200 both issues are minimised.

    Considering the mention of modular design first of all we need to be clear... carrying one rifle body with tops for SMG, short barrel carbine, rifle, and long heavier barrel LMG and long heavy barrel larger calibre belt feed GPMG sounds great on paper, but for those in the field you are not going to carry all the bits and reassemble the weapon you need when you need it. Five weapon setups with 4 calibre options sounds good on paper but a belt fed 7.62 x 54mmR SMG doesn't make sense.

    They might go for the separate upper and lower section... and I am sure the AR crowd will jump up and down about how it is copying the M16, but my L1A1 has a pin that separates the rifle upper and lower and I believe it predates the M16 in service.

    My ideal new full replacement rifle will be a bullpup with forward ejection of cases to allow left and right hand firing. A design that is split in two main sections with the upper having the weapon feed, barrel and gas system, and the lower having the trigger mechanism and bolt assembly and a rear mounted magazine with either box magazine or a belt box. The uppers come in short SMG barrel (about 300mm or 12 inch)with downward facing 60 or 30 round standard box mag, slightly longer carbine barrel (415mm or 16 inch) with same 60 or 30 round box mag, Rifle with 20 inch or 510mm barrel and same 60 or 30 round box mag, LMG with 24 inch or 600mm barrel and a 100 round belt fed box... all in 5.45mm for Russian use, 7.62 x 39mm for export and in 5.56mm for export too, and finally a 7.62 x 54mm model with a 28 inch or 712mm heavy barrel and belt fed box of 100-200 rounds.

    All with balanced recoil mechanisms plus safety switches near where your thumb rests back from the trigger and with a nonreciprocating cocking lever mounted on the upper.

    The gas tube is mounted below the barrel to raise the muzzle closer to the iron and optic sight line.

    Instead of an adjustable stock like the AR series that can move their stock a few cms, these new weapons will have pistol grips that can be moved forward or back to adjust the length of pull. (ie if you are wearing heavy body armour it moves the trigger further away so being able to slide the pistol grip area back a few cms makes it easier to reach naturally.

    I would put a decent low power scope on as standard with a nice wide field of view but as the picatinny rail would be along the entire top of the rifle then a night vision scope could be fitted in front of it at night and a more powerful magnifying scope for longer range shots in front of that.
    Fold down iron sights will be permanently fitted in case the optics fail.

    Looking at a link from the link you gave Austin:

    http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=ru_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2flenta.ru%2fnews%2f2010%2f05%2f25%2fak1%2f

    It seems the Russian military has not accepted the AK-200 design yet, but that the FSB and MVD are buying it now.

    If they are developing a new rifle from scratch then it will be a while... especially if it is a modular weapon as that means lots of designs to design, develop and test and perfect.

    The special forces will likely get the new rifles first.
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:54 am

    I have posted this before, but this version has English subtitles:



    Will this be the new rifle of the Russian federation?

    The AK-200 will have to be pretty good to beat this.

    For those eagle eyes amongst you... did you notice anything interesting about the old type of ammo that is shown with the new round?

    To give you a strong hint look at the bullet tip... what does that normally mean?
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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:56 am

    GarryB wrote:I have posted this before, but this version has English subtitles:



    Will this be the new rifle of the Russian federation?

    The AK-200 will have to be pretty good to beat this.

    No...it's for naval commandos/frogmen

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  njb1 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:20 am

    I attended the UK DSEI defence show with Izhmash showing for the first time.

    No AK-200 was shown (though AK103 & AN94 was) talking to one of the staff an interesting point came out - Izmash is looking at a 'replacement' for western style attachment rails i.e a new system . This remineded me of the system used on the US HK XM8 program.

    No idea how far they have got with this or if its for the AK-200 series or the 'AK Replacement' system. They indicated that the use of rails on the bottom & sides of a fore arm produced an uncomforable firing position & hold and hence a new solution was in the offing for the attachment of 'extras'.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:56 am

    Very interesting njb1.

    The Soviets and Russians have a history of appearing to adopt western stuff but modifying it so that it is only one way compatible.

    A good example is the 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev round, based on a Mauser cartridge used in the Broomhandle Mauser very popular in Russia.

    They adopted the round and the calibre but increased the loading of the round so that it was no longer safe to use it in most of the weapons in the west designed for it.

    It is the same currently with the 9mm Parabellum round with pistol ammo loadings equating to P++ loads. P+ loads in the west are especially for SMG use and are not for use in pistols, whereas these Russian pistol rounds are even more hotly loaded.

    Will be interesting to see what they come up with.

    Also I mentioned on another thread that the new underwater ammo for the ADS still uses a very large and long penetrator that reaches back to the primer in the 5.45mm shell case. It also has a sabot around the projectile which will take up even more space so in the little space left in the shell case they have used increased power powder to get good ballistic performance from the round.

    It is quite common for enlarged bullets having problems ballistically because there is no enough room left in the shell case for propellent to drive it out at the velocities required.

    Would be interesting to see the effect of this new more energetic powder in the standard round, or perhaps with an 80 to 100 grain projectile. Long small calibre rounds require high rate of twists to stabilise them in air, but are better stabilised with fins like APFSDS rounds.
    A 100 grain 5.45mm calibre bullet with a hollow tip that is tail heavy and travelling at 950m/s would be a very interesting round... the extra mass should allow it to retain velocity better over greater distances than the lighter older rounds.

    There would be more recoil, but this might be an 800m effective range round and with the tradition 5.45mm design the lethality should be good to that distance too.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  njb1 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:07 pm

    Add balance recoil system to that and its a winner !.

    Again talking to the Izmash guys at the show I asked about balance recoil systems on the AK-200 - they indicated that the 'same system' as the AK 100 series would be used - however the conversation could have been slightly lost in translation.

    My bet is the AK-200 will not have it and and future replacement will.

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:28 pm

    That is pretty ambiguous as the AK-101-105 don't have it, but the AK-107 and AK-108 do have it.

    I really hope the AK-200 does have a balanced recoil system as otherwise it is just an AK-74M with rails and a 60 round mag... in other words cosmetic changes, but nothing fundamentally new.

    Balanced recoil mechanisms are not rocket science, in the mid 1970s there were rifles offered in competition to the AK-74 in the new calibre with balanced recoil mechanisms, but they were rejected and the AK was adopted because it was ready for full scale mass production... of course it was... it is an AKM with a different calibre and a new muzzle brake... I hope they aren't going to do that again... but I guess it is probably quite likely they will.... Sad

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    Re: Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns: Discussion

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      Current date/time is Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:42 pm