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    T-90 MBT and Variants

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    GarryB
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:18 am

    Actually I immediately assumed the roof hatches in the bustle are for loading ammo... based mainly on their shape.

    The configuration that is visible has two long relatively narrow hatches.

    Without looking back at the image I thought they looked close together but now that I go back and zoom in I can see each hatch is at the outer edge of the actual turret bustle as shown in this picture I have enlarged and highlighted... the hatches in question in red and the outline of the actual turret bustle in light green to show the actual bustle rather than boxes and rails attached to it.

    Obviously the hatches are an ideal shape for loading ammo from outside the vehicle, but if there is, as there has been reported electronics inside the turret bustle they might also be access panels for maintainence and upgrades for the electronics... so it really doesn't prove anything.




    I should however point out that such panels... whether they are access panels or reloading panels in an internal explosion would work as blow out panels... all they have to do is "fail" before other openings fail and any blast from inside will be directed primarily out through them rather than into the crew compartment.

    Note just in terms of storage it would make sense to store the electronics closer to the turret and the ammo closer to the rear of the turret bustle as it would make the electronics easier to access from inside the vehicle.

    In terms of ammo access, even if they don't have an autoloader as such they will likely have an automated ammo rack that rotates to allow perhaps two loading positions at the rear of the turret for perhaps two rows of 9 projectiles and propellent stubs. To move the ammo from the rear of the turret bustle to where the gunner can reach the projectile and the ammo stub to load it into the underfloor autoloader would require a very simple straight line rammer to move the ammo forwards into the reach of the gunner. The ammo "chain" storage system would then rotate and the next round will be pushed forward for the gunner to load it into the underfloor magazine.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:58 pm

    The news i have found most surprising in this beginning of Nizhniy Tagil arms expo are the declarations of the NII Stali's President Valeriy Grigoryan.

    After having exposed briefly the truly outstanding capabilities of Relikt ( among which capability to defeat multiple EFP and tandem warhead in an ERA with double the effciency of actual K-5 tiles !!) it calmly add :


    "For us, Relikt is something in the past.Completely new systems that do not utilize explosives are arriving. We are using completely new energy substances that are much more effective and much safer than explosives,"

    I ask to myself if Armata heavy platform ,in its tank incarnation ,will see the integration of those revolutionary not explosive reactive armor much more effective (...for not say totally immune to multi warhead missiles ,virtually without limits for multiple hit and perfectly integrable in the main armor ...) than even the actual outstanding Relikt ERA.


    I am also in search of any news on Shtora-2 ,someone has some info on the system in question ?
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  KRATOS1133 on Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:44 pm

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  KRATOS1133 on Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:08 pm
























    Last edited by KRATOS1133 on Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:48 am; edited 3 times in total

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:11 pm

    WoW Nice , Any picture of the specs board of T-90AM ?

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:28 pm

    via mp.net




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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:32 pm

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  KRATOS1133 on Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:34 pm

    At 0:34

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:09 am

    Thanks for all pics guys, the new tank looks good Very Happy

    Mindstorm wrote:The news i have found most surprising in this beginning of Nizhniy Tagil arms expo are the declarations of the NII Stali's President Valeriy Grigoryan.

    After having exposed briefly the truly outstanding capabilities of Relikt ( among which capability to defeat multiple EFP and tandem warhead in an ERA with double the effciency of actual K-5 tiles !!) it calmly add :


    "For us, Relikt is something in the past.Completely new systems that do not utilize explosives are arriving. We are using completely new energy substances that are much more effective and much safer than explosives,"

    I ask to myself if Armata heavy platform ,in its tank incarnation ,will see the integration of those revolutionary not explosive reactive armor much more effective (...for not say totally immune to multi warhead missiles ,virtually without limits for multiple hit and perfectly integrable in the main armor ...) than even the actual outstanding Relikt ERA.

    Interesting news....like you said, it's likely that we'll see this new armour on the new Armata tank.

    I am also in search of any news on Shtora-2 ,someone has some info on the system in question ?

    Not much public info on it. There's speculation that it provides a counter to F&F type weapons.

    There is a Shtora-M (TShU-117M) available with increased capabilities

    Arrow http://www.zavodstella.ru/catalog/Zaschita_nazem/55

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:07 am

    "For us, Relikt is something in the past.Completely new systems that do not utilize explosives are arriving. We are using completely new energy substances that are much more effective and much safer than explosives,"

    That is NERA. or Non Explosive Reactive Armour.

    Austin posted a link to a magazine that mentioned it as a solution to protecting light armoured vehicles and ERA often did damage to the light vehicle structure.

    I wonder if NERA and ERA could be used in combination on heavy armoured vehicles?

    I would assume NERA didn't throw out metal plates so putting ERA on top of it wouldn't effect its ability to work properly.

    Regarding Shtora-M I would expect something they would have tried to fix was its range of effect... the old Shtora only worked in a range of something like -5 and +25 degrees, which of course would not cover diving top attack weapons like Spike and Javelin.

    What should of course be kept in mind is that despite the introduction of Spike and Javelin the vast majority of ATGMs out there are AT-3 and Milan and TOW like weapons and SHTORA offers good protection against these for a minor increase in weight.

    Edit: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/06/russian-nxra-for-lavs.html

    For info on Russian NERA.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:49 am

    Some details on the new tank out here, will have to use translator

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/blog-post_10.html

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:58 am

    Some details on the new T-90MS

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/blog-post_10.html

    1> Has a new Turret with enhanced protection of frontal projection, roof and sides.
    2> Has new ERA "Relic" It has an improved ability to withstand modern sabot projectiles and HEAT rounds
    3> Can withstand current and future anti-tank weapons , The level of protection of the new tank exceeds any competitor
    4> Weight increased by less than 2 Tons , Tanks weighs a little more than 48 T
    5 > T-90MS new fire control system "Kalina" is equal to the best world samples
    6 > Has implemented auto tracking of Targets
    7> The gunner has combined thermal sight, laser and optical channels. The commander has a panoramic multi-channel scope.
    8> The tank has a single automated control system at the tactical level. it is able to exchange information and receive indication from other machines Battalion ( BMS )
    9> Has satellite navigation system GLONASS-GPS and modern means of communication.
    10> T-90MS can be fitted with an existing gun or new gun of high power 125 mm caliber
    11> Has ammunition capacity of 40 rounds , in secure underfloor loader and rear bustle reducing the risk to the crew
    12 >T-90MS has a new 1130 horsepower engine
    13> Has electronic automatic gear change and motion control using the steering wheel
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  KRATOS1133 on Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:36 pm

    Does this mean that T-90MS will be exported to Algeria and Turkmenistan Question
    Вчера под Нижним Тагилом главе правительства показывали всю танковую мощь российской армии. Если сравнить выставку оружия с показом мод, то можно сказать, что демонстрировали коллекции прошлых лет. Новинкой можно назвать разве что модернизированный танк Т-90С. В феврале этого года на испытаниях наш танк показал себя лучше иностранных аналогов. Хотя есть эксперты, которые утверждают, что комплекс защиты и на этом новом танке уже устарел.
    В любом случае на поставки этого российского оружия заключены контракты с Алжиром и Туркменией. По оценкам экспертов, стоимость одной такой машины 70 млн. рублей.
    http://usa.kp.ru/daily/25751/2737477/
    Can anyone help me with a translation please Razz

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:45 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:What's this box like container at the rear of the T-90MS? ...the APU Question



    At mp.net some one confirmed that its an APU
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:36 pm

    KRATOS1133 wrote:В любом случае на поставки этого российского оружия заключены контракты с Алжиром и Туркменией. По оценкам экспертов, стоимость одной такой машины 70 млн. рублей.
    http://usa.kp.ru/daily/25751/2737477/
    Can anyone help me with a translation please Razz

    The quoted line says that contracts with Algeria and Turkmenistan have been signed. I wonder however if the journalists haven't mixed up the previous contracts with Algeria and Turkmenistan (ordered a small number of T-90S in 2010).
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:55 am

    What's this box like container at the rear of the T-90MS? ...the APU

    Could be, but the rear hatch sort of reminds me of those external phone systems so ground troops can communicate directly with the tank commander... a bit dangerous to use if the tank suddenly decides to reverse out of its position of course, but it means ground troops can talk directly to the commander of the tank and direct fire where the ground force want it.

    Can anyone help me with a translation please

    Yesterday at Nizhniy Tagil head of the government showed the entire tank strength of the Russian army. If you compare the show with a fashion show of weapons, we can say that exhibited a collection of past years. Novelty can be called unless the upgraded T-90S. In February this year to test our tank proved to be better than foreign analogues. Although there are experts who argue that the complex of protection and this new tank is already outdated.
    In any case, the supply of Russian arms contracts with Algeria and Turkmenistan. According to experts, the cost of one such machine 70 million rubles.

    There are experts that state Adolf Hitler is still alive on a base on the dark side of the moon and that in return for rocket technology the allies let him escape to there... Rolling Eyes

    I disagree with those experts and the ones saying the T-90MS is not cool...

    If smooth bore gun of T-80 tank can fire HE-Frag round against bunkers, fortification etc why do they specially need rifled bore to fire HESH round ?

    The British are conservative and prefer rifled guns.

    Rifled guns are actually a pain for APFSDS rounds and HEAT rounds as you can't spin a long narrow APFSDS round fast enough to stabilise it... it needs fins, and the spin from a rifled barrel reduces the penetration effect of a HEAT round because centrifugal force spreads the plasma beam of penetrating material.

    Well the main reason why India went for rifled bore of Arjun was it could fire HESH round.

    Blind tradition.

    The quoted line says that contracts with Algeria and Turkmenistan have been signed. I wonder however if the journalists haven't mixed up the previous contracts with Algeria and Turkmenistan (ordered a small number of T-90S in 2010).

    I agree... the T-90MS hasn't been tested yet... and most of its net centric stuff will not work efficiently without a network to work within.

    IMO, that's the British influence coming to the fore. The British Army is the only one that insisted on rifled gun/HESH round capability in the whole of Nato.

    I remember the British bleeting on about how inaccurate the 115mm smoothbore gun of the T-62 would be without rifling. Then everyone started adopting them...

    BTW have you seen Igors page recently Austin?

    {quote]
    - He said 850 mm for APFSDS and 1200 mm for cumulative.[/quote]

    source: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2011/09/90ms-in-dynamics.html


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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:47 am

    GarryB wrote:

    BTW have you seen Igors page recently Austin?

    {quote]
    - He said 850 mm for APFSDS and 1200 mm for cumulative.

    source: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2011/09/90ms-in-dynamics.html

    [/quote]

    Thanks but what does that mean ?
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:57 am

    He means the export 125mm ammo of the T-90MS has that performance...

    At 2,000m at zero degrees impact the APFSDS rounds will penetrate 850mm of armour and the HEAT round will penetrate 1,200mm of armour.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:08 am

    GarryB wrote:He means the export 125mm ammo of the T-90MS has that performance...

    At 2,000m at zero degrees impact the APFSDS rounds will penetrate 850mm of armour and the HEAT round will penetrate 1,200mm of armour.

    Is that good for both rounds ?

    I think the latest Kornet has 1300 mm penetration capability for heat
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:37 am

    Kornet is 152mm calibre...

    The comparison would be previously known or estimated rounds... for APFSDS that is the 3BM-44M codenamed Lekalo with a 650mm penetration performance at 2,000m, and for the HEAT the 3VBK-27 round with the exotic triple charge and 800mm penetration...

    So 850 vs 650, and 1,200 vs 800... yup, that is improved. Smile

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:06 am

    GarryB wrote:Kornet is 152mm calibre...

    The comparison would be previously known or estimated rounds... for APFSDS that is the 3BM-44M codenamed Lekalo with a 650mm penetration performance at 2,000m, and for the HEAT the 3VBK-27 round with the exotic triple charge and 800mm penetration...

    So 850 vs 650, and 1,200 vs 800... yup, that is improved. Smile

    Nice , Thats indeed an improvement , considering it needed 650 mm of RPG-29 to penetrate the side Armour of M1A2

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:21 am

    There was a comparison chart shown to putin which compared M1A2SEP ,Leopard 2 ,T-90S and T-90MS ... the pictures i have seen of the chart is barely clear.

    Do we have a clear picture of the chart ?
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  coolieno99 on Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:54 am

    T-90S



    Source: Lenta.ru
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:00 am

    That chart shows vulnerable points of weak armour areas in the frontal area of a tank... it shows that the T-90MS or AM or whatever now only has the same weak areas every tank has... ie the turret ring and the main gun area.

    This picture however makes things interesting...



    Clearly shows three hatches...

    So there is very easy access to the contents of the turret bustle for maintainence and plenty of weak spots in case of an internal explosion... which are both very good things.

    The weak spots will mean any explosion will blow out the doors and reduce internal pressure levels so internal armoured doors are less likely to fail and expose the crew to the explosion.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:49 am

    I think the problem with T-90MS or T-90S is that there is space between turret and the chasis which will allow rounds to penetrate and blow the turret , while for other tanks there is no space between turret and the chasis , what do you think ?

    Another point i realised on a russian board is the presence of new autotracker on T-90MS means the missile can now be automatically guided with the tracker without any human intervention , this would probably leave the gunner to do other task.

    what is the penetration figures of Western Heat and APFSDS round ?

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