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    T-90 MBT and Variants

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    Austin
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    T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:52 am

    Nice video of T-90 and Leopard comparision , use translation for content but video is good

    http://rian.ru/video/20110322/356548390.html

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Tue May 24, 2011 7:00 am

    Via Andy_UA

    Insight from ovtaga on heavy and support platform -
    Its not 100%, however chances are Armata'(heavy platform) is not going to be hybrid-electric driven or using electric transmission. They decided not to risk and use this unproven technology for a frontline machine, instead they opt for a advanced next gen diesel and hydrostatic drive transmission(that is new for Rus.tech)
    HOWEVER the intemediate platform is gonna be all-electric for extra power as many radio-electronic, radar, SAM, artllery, C4 variants are planned... It is developed by Uraltransmash

    vim
    "Uraltransmash makes a unified platform for air defense, artillery, electronic warfare, etc. Choosing an electric power explain the need for generation of a electric power, without any additional power plants. These machines most of the time work to feed the systems, rather than movement. **** said that the SAM people are very satisfied"


    Armata according to GUR KHAN(guy from UVZ):

    "...controlled suspension with blade dampers, the differential rotation mechanism with the hydrostatic drive, front like a ob.187/195 capsule for the crew of 3 people, external weapon like the 195 but the caliber is 125mm, FCS - symbiosis between developments on the 195 and 90m. H-APCs and H-BMP with front engine and rear hatch. In the variant of APCs armed with 12,7 mm machine gun. BREM - crane as BREM-1M, but with the "right" side, a pile of all sorts of useful tools and adjusted (do something resembling to BREM and logistics all in 1,

    Engine - not know yet either 2V12-3 or T series or V-99"

    T-90AM, SM, - Gur Khan story -
    In the picture a machine that was offered for export to one country. T-90M and T-90AM, it's the same thing.
    She has an index 188M - but it applies only to the turret, for now this is not a turret but a UBM (unified fighting module). There is a demonstrator of the tank with this turret, which has no official name yet. Conventionally, personally I coined the name "T-90M." Anyway ... somewhere in the 2004-05 year a proactive R&D "Breakthrough"was conducted, which has two sub-themes: "Advance 1" and "Advance 2. 1 - is an upgrade of the T-90A, 2 - modernization of T-90S. Accordingly here are the roots of "T-90AM" and "T-90SM" (II). Those pictures, which have been seen where the machine with a panoramic view and the open MG turret - it's sketches from 2006. These machines, among other things were offered to Algerians. Then they were issued a passport as a T-90SM. Over time, the design was changing. In particular - APU appeared and much more. I have already said here that since the first show show in the machine has recieved some upgrades. Now it is being issued a new ad passport. But its not ready yet. How it will be called according to it - only God and the MoD knows. Morevor ... now practically guarantee that our MOD won't take the T-90M. No claims to the bad desing of MG turret - there are options to choose from - what customer wishes and what he is willing to pay. If the customer is willing to pay for remote controlled turret - he will get a machine with one, no - will be clasic ZU or even do without it. Just one of the wishes of our MOD was exactly the installation of this MG turret. And this requirement was not yesterday, it was born when they issued RFP for "Burlak" and, accordingly, Tagil, while working on "breakthrough" as an option used it too. Mentioned in an interview a period of 5 months - this is nonsense! Oleg(SIenko - CEO of UVZ) consciously or unconsciously confused some things. In fact, over these 5 months was made a a new chassis for the demo machine, but it is new only by birth, structurally it is a selial T90A chassis.

    ammo as per the project was supposed to be on the outside. It remained only a stash on a motor partition as the most secure. In fact, the demonstrator chassis has everything in its place. Regarding the niche - there isn any! There on the butt of a turret hanging out is the armored box with the ammo. designer - Cherepanov NV, right now he is deputy Director. The demo has standard V-92S2 with 1000hp. On the stand is driven V-93. It has previously reported power of 1100 hp. Actually achieved - 1130 -1150hp. (Sienko cautiously called the lower figure). This engine is designed to further modernize the T-90 and can be installed without replacement and changes in the other systems for the T-90S andT-90A to replace 92. When V-93 is ready - turn comes up for the V-99. UBM provides a embedding of 2A46M-5 or2A82. 2A82 - this gun is a high ballistics and muzzle energy higher than the German L-55.

    Just a little more and you can stick X-type chelyabisk, there like in 1350 hp?
    They 1350 hp draw type for the civilian version, or more precisely as misinformation - really a 2V12-3 has 1500hp.

    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=335&p=27#p84376

    Info from GUR KHAN on advanced heavy vehicles engines -

    In Russia, there are at least three (3) promising motors of a heavy class with a capacity of 1500-2000 hp. In Ukraine there is no such thing. There is a 6TD-2 in 1200hp. - thats it. We have 2V12-3 - 1500hp (passed state test, less powerful engines in this family are long time in the series), we got XXX-XXX 1800hp. - it is now worked on in Barnaul. There are new T-Series - xxxxxxx with the stated 1500 - 2000hp. - it has recieved all papers and is ready for initial production and is now perfected . Besides we continue series V-2 - V-93 (1100 1150hp) and V-99 (1200 1300hp.)


    More- http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=335&p=29#p85761
    So the perspective engine situation is better than was known.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Tue May 24, 2011 5:50 pm

    Some thing about T-90AM ammo

    Gur Khan wrote (a):

    "Strengthening the firepower provided by the introduction of new ammunition, the so-called" long »(L = 740 mm) of BPS. Instead of a shot from the BPS 3VBM17 3BM42 Mango introduces high-power shots 3VBM22 with BPS 3BM59

    Lead-1 and 3VBM23 with BPS 3BM60" Lead-2. The use of these weapons gives the increase in armor penetration while increasing the distance of the actual shooting. "(CFV number 10 of 2009) be amended: in GABTUshnyh papers from 2004 for these shots was registered 4ZH63 charge, but in the" open "then the T-90A - already 4ZH96.

    APU for T-90


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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Tue May 24, 2011 6:56 pm

    Wouldnt L=740mm shorted then similar american rounds ?
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 25, 2011 1:56 am

    Wouldnt L=740mm shorted then similar american rounds ?

    Yes, but the American rounds are not being fired from the German L/55 gun.

    The new American rounds are to get similar performance from the L/44 that standard ammo gets from the newer L/55 gun.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

    How does the T-90 gun stand up viz a viz German L/55 gun ?
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 25, 2011 9:32 am

    You just posted this claim:

    UBM provides a embedding of 2A46M-5 or2A82. 2A82 - this gun is a high ballistics and muzzle energy higher than the German L-55.

    Higher muzzle energy means heavier faster moving projectiles.

    Quite a claim.

    Of course the Russian gun needs more energy because heavier western tanks have heavier armour and so Russian tanks need to penetrate more armour than western guns do.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Wed May 25, 2011 11:10 am

    From one of the poster above that I came across they are also working on advanced next gen diesel and hydrostatic drive transmission

    Although initial batch of Armata could be Hybrid model.

    What is the advantage of hydrostatic drive transmission and what could constitute advanced diesel engine ?

    Would a Hybrid Tank be more ambitious thing to do then a proven diesel system ?
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 26, 2011 3:11 am

    I suspect what they are talking about is like cars.

    Going straight to an all electric car is tricky because of range and speed/power issues.

    Instead of going from a petrol engine to an all electric system, they went for a hybrid that might change to a diesel engine together with an electric engine.

    This means that driving around town you can use the electric drive and save fuel and operate quietly and have all the low emission benefits of an electric car.

    When you get onto a highway however the fuel powered engine kicks in with real power to get high speed and relatively long range while likely charging the electric system a little too.

    What is the advantage of hydrostatic drive transmission and what could constitute advanced diesel engine ?

    A hydrostatic drive transmission uses hydraulics to transfer power from an engine to a wheel or electric motor instead of using the conventional transmission of gears, clutches and plates. It should be able to handle heavier loads without losing speed and be able to greatly increase torque without having to change gear if heavy equipment stalls... so it would be very useful on heavy machinery like a tank.

    Regarding Advanced Diesel... I don't know, but would guess a combination of more power with lower fuel burn and more compact size.

    Would a Hybrid Tank be more ambitious thing to do then a proven diesel system ?

    It is a half step toward an all electric tank. In that sense it seems more advanced than tank programs elsewhere that are talking about inservice dates before 2015.

    It adds some of the benefits of electric drive but with the performance from a fuel powered engine when the electric drive lacks the overall performance of a diesel engine.
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:38 pm

    Austin wrote:Wouldnt L=740mm shorted then similar american rounds ?

    The M829A3 projectile is about 900 mm long, and it's penetrator is about 800 mm long.

    GarryB wrote:
    Wouldnt L=740mm shorted then similar american rounds ?

    Yes, but the American rounds are not being fired from the German L/55 gun.

    The new American rounds are to get similar performance from the L/44 that standard ammo gets from the newer L/55 gun.

    Actually, the newest rounds we have surpass (by a bit) German rounds from their L/55. Some speculate that this is because we're using 3rd generation DU monoblocks which outperform WHA at under 2km, and that, the DU drives the M829A3 home compared to the DM66 despite having a slower muzzle velocity.

    Austin wrote:How does the T-90 gun stand up viz a viz German L/55 gun ?

    AFAIK, the T-90's gun is 125 mm L/48 while the Leopard 2's gun is 120 mm L/55, which means that respectively their barrel lengths are 6 m and 6.6 m long respectively. Despite a slightly larger muzzle bore and being almost 800 mm longer than the M256 120 mm L/44 that the Abrams uses, the main problem with the T-90's armament has been it's lack of utilization of long rod penetrators, which is attributed to the T-90's use of autoloaders. The problem has been slightly fixed in the newest models but the longest Russian penetrators are not as long as the Western ones, which bring down their penetrative powers.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:44 pm

    Ok so longer rod seems to be an issue although the T-90 gun has better muzzle velocity and slightly larger caliber , does the slightly larger caliber (thicker rod ) in any way offsets the longer rod advantage of 120 mm gun ?
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:53 pm

    A thicker rod is actually bad v.s. most tanks (unless they're using Kontakt ERA). The ideal "shape" of a penetrator is basically, long and skinny. Soviet and Russian APFSDS rounds tend to be shorter and fatter compared to their Western counterparts (although, Russian rounds have been getting longer and skinnier as of late, but not as longer or skinnier than their Western counterparts). The T-90's Muzzle velocity does not offset the superior penetrator design that the Western rounds have.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:59 pm

    Superior because they are skinnier and longer and use DU compared to Russian Tungsten or do they have other virtues ?
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:28 pm

    Pretty much sums it up. Just for reference, the German DM66 is made out of Tungsten and to get similar performance to the U.S.'s M829A3 which uses DU, it has to be fired from the L/55.
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:31 am

    The Soviets were experimenting with DU as a tank penetrator round in the 1970s just like NATO did and in their experiments they found that apart from the incendiary effect of the DU round on steel targets there wasn't much actual difference in penetration performance compared with Tungsten.
    They had plenty of Tungsten.

    AFAIK, the T-90's gun is 125 mm L/48 while the Leopard 2's gun is 120 mm L/55, which means that respectively their barrel lengths are 6 m and 6.6 m long respectively.

    Clearly you are assuming the 2A82 gun has the same barrel length than the gun fitted to current T-90s.
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:38 am

    Nope. Modern studies show that DU rounds have more penetrative capability at ranges under 2 km compared to Tungsten rounds.

    Clearly, if you paid attention, Austin never mentioned what variant of the T-90 so I assumed baseline.
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:30 am

    Nope. Modern studies show that DU rounds have more penetrative capability at ranges under 2 km compared to Tungsten rounds.

    It needs to be significantly more effective to warrant the cost of having to spend enormous amounts of money cleaning up the practice ranges.
    And in their tests it wasn't.

    Clearly, if you paid attention, Austin never mentioned what variant of the T-90 so I assumed baseline.

    And did you include the title of the thread in your thought process or his previous question about a comparison of the new gun in the T-90AM with the L55 120mm gun when you made that assumption?
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Nope. Modern studies show that DU rounds have more penetrative capability at ranges under 2 km compared to Tungsten rounds.

    It needs to be significantly more effective to warrant the cost of having to spend enormous amounts of money cleaning up the practice ranges.
    And in their tests it wasn't.

    Clearly, if you paid attention, Austin never mentioned what variant of the T-90 so I assumed baseline.

    And did you include the title of the thread in your thought process or his previous question about a comparison of the new gun in the T-90AM with the L55 120mm gun when you made that assumption?

    ...you don't clean up the practice ranges because you're not firing DU rounds, they're called practice shots...

    And from a 1980 US Army comparison of the two materials:

    "The significance of this difference can be seen in Table 7 where the effective range of the XM833 and XM82g are shown for DU and WA for several postulated targets representative of current and future Soviet tanks. Though the difference in effective range between the materials is evident with the conventional targets, the WA still provides
    However, as the targets become more difficult a reasonable effectiveness. The WA core effectiveness drops off to zero. Although it is recognized that a zero effective range versus a simulated target is an over-dramatization of ineffectiveness, the inability of the WA versions to penetrate critical areas of a future tank would seriously degrade the overall kill probability."

    http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:UDIKVRTRaz8J:doc.danfahey.com/DU-W-1980.pdf+Tungsten+v.s.+DU&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESikMOVj-jouO-7uZSqNZikUwsiB4Xr85TRW0BFxylcfYxoEbTzBskiiQDMpJyaa7ketgYfqvINqR-V4MeGDWVizN9O-a8bw0RZQwNvyc0xGFQF04PucfXK-R9Uql8pZBU3ZWwIu&sig=AHIEtbSAgmVBYjWsxb_JI3SvqnZQWMSovQ
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:37 am

    Don't know about US practise but most other places they normally use practise rounds and also fire off a few old stock rounds to give the crews experience in handling the real thing... or are those 400 flight hours per year for USAF pilots all on the simulator?

    http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

    Clearly shows they have both Uranium and Tungsten APDSFS rounds and that the current best known is not DU.

    The German military decided to fit a longer gun to their tanks to equalise the difference in performance.

    The US has upgraded the performance of its rounds to match the improved performance, but the improved gun improves performance of all rounds fired through it, so the Germans can have better performance simply by using the improved US rounds if that were necessary.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  IronsightSniper on Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:22 am

    You really don't know anything about "experience" do you? Flying in a plane for 400 hours, doing maneuvers, and occasional firing missiles gives you experience. It doesn't matter what the missile is or does as it's LOAL, and thus, is mostly care free for the pilot.

    Same can be said for a Tank crew. Driving a tank, doing maneuvers, and occasionally firing rounds gives you experience. It doesn't matter what the round is or does as the ballistic computer compensates for all the rounds the tank can fire, thus ensuring accuracy as long as the Gunner ain't an idiot.

    Anyways, if you knew anything about Tanks, you'd realize that the Soviet DU APFSDS were very "Russian", short and fat. Penetrator design, like I've said plenty of times, contributes more to penetration than sheer muzzle energy or penetrator material contributes. That's not to say shooting something at the speed of light or making the penetrator out of Admantanium won't improve it's penetration, but generally speaking, a long, thin, dense and hard, fast and accurate APFSDS is what to look for. So far the Russians are getting close to Western APFSDS but are still a ways off.
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:31 am

    That's not to say shooting something at the speed of light or making the penetrator out of Admantanium won't improve it's penetration, but generally speaking, a long, thin, dense and hard, fast and accurate APFSDS is what to look for. So far the Russians are getting close to Western APFSDS but are still a ways off.

    Amusing you talk about long and thin being the only solution...

    It is a western solution... common sense would dictate that that solution was arrived at after studying the problem... which would be Russian Armour structures.

    Couldn't possibly be that the Russians come to a different solution because they are not trying to penetrate Russian Armour structures but western armour structures... which are different...

    I remember reading research done in the west about the impossibility of an effective rocket propelled torpedo because the amount of thrust required exponentially increased drag and was therefore wasted energy that limited the speed of the weapon to levels already achieved with other propulsion methods.

    The paper was obviously written before Shkval was revealed to the west.

    ...but of course if western experts think it can't be done it must be impossible or wrong. Rolling Eyes

    BTW 200 years ago the very idea of an energy weapon that could be used to kill someone was preposterous because the energy needed to kill someone at a distance would surely kill the person using it first.
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:45 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]
    That's not to say shooting something at the speed of light or making the penetrator out of Admantanium won't improve it's penetration, but generally speaking, a long, thin, dense and hard, fast and accurate APFSDS is what to look for. So far the Russians are getting close to Western APFSDS but are still a ways off.

    Amusing you talk about long and thin being the only solution...

    It is a western solution... common sense would dictate that that solution was arrived at after studying the problem... which would be Russian Armour structures.

    Couldn't possibly be that the Russians come to a different solution because they are not trying to penetrate Russian Armour structures but western armour structures... which are different...

    I remember reading research done in the west about the impossibility of an effective rocket propelled torpedo because the amount of thrust required exponentially increased drag and was therefore wasted energy that limited the speed of the weapon to levels already achieved with other propulsion methods.

    The paper was obviously written before Shkval was revealed to the west.

    ...but of course if western experts think it can't be done it must be impossible or wrong. Rolling Eyes

    BTW 200 years ago the very idea of an energy weapon that could be used to kill someone was preposterous because the energy needed to kill someone at a distance would surely kill the person using it first.

    Ha nope. Western armor technologies have in fact, surpassed Soviet technologies. They both feature pretty much the same types of multi-layered arrays, but the Russians generally use Mass-effective materials while the West uses Thickness-effective materials. Generally speaking, yes, a long, thin, and DU penetrator will fair far better than some short and fat DU penetrator v.s. muli-layered arrays. The only reason to have short and fat penetrators would be against ERA, but after that's dealt with, the penetrator becomes far more degraded v.s. the main armor than a long and thin one doing the same thing. Hell, DU in fact, is the best material to use v.s. ERA, as it's resistance to the sheer forces (which is ERA like K-5's main kill mechanism) is what allows it to safely defeat said ERA. Simply said, the Russians have came to the same conclusion that they need longer and skinnier and denser/harder rounds, there's nothing wrong with that, but they're still behind.
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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:07 am

    Or is it the west that is behind?

    Tank on Tank warfare is actually very rare and most of the time a tank is not dealing with enemy tanks it is dealing with other threats and problems.

    Air power is a much greater threat to a Tank than another tank is, and there are plenty of tactics that can be applied when facing different threat level tanks.

    The basic and simple reality is that Russia wont be facing Western tanks in combat any time soon, the greater threat is from former Soviet Republics and the Chinese.

    NATO tanks will be dealt with using tactical nukes.

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:01 am

    Very interesting test done on T-90 and T-80 with K5 ERA and RPG-29 has penetrated the frontal arc of T-90 tank with ERA

    http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html

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    Re: T-90 MBT and Variants

    Post  Austin on Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:10 am

    Right now i would not speculate on what Armata , Boomerang and Typhoon could come with unless they officially show it and its still few years from now.

    Right now they should buy T-90AM which is a good tank and they should promote it actively to armies around the world , countries that use T-72 and T-80 can be one big customer base for T-90AM as it really matches western MBT on all paramaters and its cheaper compared to them , so its really a great opportunity and they should not loose it.

    They should buy 500 off T-90AM so that its easier to promote it as it is operated by host army which gives the customer confidence and then try to promote to IA which is a big customer of T-90.

    If they do small things right then they have good chance to export T-90AM globally till such time by end of decade Armata is available for export and is mass produced.

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