Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Share
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1310
    Points : 1335
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  eehnie on Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:43 pm

    Surely the strongest Sovietic designs of the post World War II were done in the 1970s. There is still a good number of them that remain in production and very actual, then it would be too early to select the bests.

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic

    Posts : 57
    Points : 59
    Join date : 2016-10-13

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  MonkeymodelBananaRepublic on Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:16 am

    I was wondering, what has russia done with the 14,000 AFV that it retired a few years ago?

    When Putin ordered the T55,T62 & T64 to be withdrawn from active service were they sold off or scraped or put into storage? What exactly is the plan for all these vehicles?

    When vehicles are put into storage in russia what are the conditions like, is it facilities protected from weather or are they just left out in the open to rust?

    If you are going to leave them out in the open exposed to elements and they are going to decay why not just scrap them strait away, at least you make jobs for a period of time and can get some use out of old materials...

    Ive seen on wikipedia (dont know how reliable) that russia still has 7,000 BMP1's. Whats the current plan for all those, are they going to swap out main guns on them to BMP2 in future or let them rust in junkyards, sell them or auto-mate them into robot tanks?

    Ive seen american documentary that afghanistan is still using t62's why doesnt russia supply them with replacement t62s to reduce its arsenal? They currently have 40 working vehicles left i think - just type into google "t62 stars and stripes"

    With the reduction in defence budget and the surplus of hulls will they go ahead with the t55 heavy infantry transport to save costs and increase protection ?

    I am not sure I follow the understanding between the active russian army and the reserve russian army - this reserve army used for fighting in the CIS for low technology wars - is this the same as the amalgamation of the interior ministry troops, border guards and drug units? Is the intent to keep t72, t80 and t90 for the contractor/professional full time army and to use up all the t64,t62,t55,bmp1/2 in the reserve army?

    Will this reserve army be manned by conscripts or contractors as well?

    How do the russians think about return on investment in terms of equipment? I mean it cost them billions to make all these vehicles, how much use or return do they aim to get out of each vehicle before they decide to chuck them out? Is there a pre-determined number or rough goal? e.g. if they got 30 years service out of a single t62 then what happens to it next is not important as it achieved the desired return on investment so it doesnt matter if it gets scrapped, sold off, donated etc

    Sorry for the long list of questions, these are all thoughts i have been wondering about for the past 2 years or so
    avatar
    franco

    Posts : 2400
    Points : 2438
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  franco on Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:25 am

    I was wondering, what has russia done with the 14,000 AFV that it retired a few years ago? Junking or storage for possible sales.

    When Putin ordered the T55,T62 & T64 to be withdrawn from active service were they sold off or scraped or put into storage? What exactly is the plan for all these vehicles? Understand 55 & 62 to junk. T-64 storage for possible sale.

    When vehicles are put into storage in russia what are the conditions like, is it facilities protected from weather or are they just left out in the open to rust? Out in the open with at most a tarp. This includes used equipment. Just starting to build vehicle shelters.

    If you are going to leave them out in the open exposed to elements and they are going to decay why not just scrap them strait away, at least you make jobs for a period of time and can get some use out of old materials...

    Ive seen on wikipedia (dont know how reliable) that russia still has 7,000 BMP1's. Whats the current plan for all those, are they going to swap out main guns on them to BMP2 in future or let them rust in junkyards, sell them or auto-mate them into robot tanks? Most are junk. BMP-1 & 2's are not popular.


    Ive seen american documentary that afghanistan is still using t62's why doesnt russia supply them with replacement t62s to reduce its arsenal? They currently have 40 working vehicles left i think - just type into google "t62 stars and stripes"

    With the reduction in defence budget and the surplus of hulls will they go ahead with the t55 heavy infantry transport to save costs and increase protection ? Really don't see it.

    I am not sure I follow the understanding between the active russian army and the reserve russian army - this reserve army used for fighting in the CIS for low technology wars - is this the same as the amalgamation of the interior ministry troops, border guards and drug units? Is the intent to keep t72, t80 and t90 for the contractor/professional full time army and to use up all the t64,t62,t55,bmp1/2 in the reserve army? What reserve army are you talking about?

    Will this reserve army be manned by conscripts or contractors as well? Not sure what you are talking about.

    How do the russians think about return on investment in terms of equipment? I mean it cost them billions to make all these vehicles, how much use or return do they aim to get out of each vehicle before they decide to chuck them out? Is there a pre-determined number or rough goal? e.g. if they got 30 years service out of a single t62 then what happens to it next is not important as it achieved the desired return on investment so it doesnt matter if it gets scrapped, sold off, donated etc ... Junk is junk. A T-62 would be 40-50 years old.

    Sorry for the long list of questions, these are all thoughts i have been wondering about for the past 2 years or so
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16324
    Points : 16955
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:51 am

    You generally get bare minimum return when scrapping tanks... you can't just take the hull and melt it down and suddenly have 40 tons of high quality steel to sell on the open market.

    Building shelters would cost more money than scrapping them will recover and then what do you do with the shelters when the contents are scrapped?

    Reserve forces are soldiers from the 90s and 80s and 70s that can still fight that will be called up when needed.

    Equipping them with weapons and equipment they likely trained on makes more sense than having to train them on the new stuff.

    There is no point in using old tank hulls to make new IFVs when the new tank based vehicles will have tank based everything anyway.

    Units that don't require tank level protection will operate in lighter vehicles.... for a reason.

    Note in terms of tanks being kept or not it is not an accident that the scrapped tanks had 100mm rifled guns and 115mm smoothbore guns and the tanks to be retained have 125mm guns... Re-gunning with new model guns would allow new model ammo to be used by all tanks... obviously new comms and APS and ERA etc would also be added and new sights etc.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5533
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:47 am

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic wrote:I was wondering, what has russia done with the 14,000 AFV that it retired a few years ago?

    When Putin ordered the T55,T62 & T64 to be withdrawn from active service were they sold off or scraped or put into storage? What exactly is the plan for all these vehicles?

    When vehicles are put into storage in russia what are the conditions like, is it facilities protected from weather or are they just left out in the open to rust?

    If you are going to leave them out in the open exposed to elements and they are going to decay why not just scrap them strait away, at least you make jobs for a period of time and can get some use out of old materials...

    Ive seen on wikipedia (dont know how reliable) that russia still has 7,000 BMP1's. Whats the current plan for all those, are they going to swap out main guns on them to BMP2 in future or let them rust in junkyards, sell them or auto-mate them into robot tanks?

    Ive seen american documentary that afghanistan is still using t62's why doesnt russia supply them with replacement t62s to reduce its arsenal? They currently have 40 working vehicles left i think - just type into google "t62 stars and stripes"

    With the reduction in defence budget and the surplus of hulls will they go ahead with the t55 heavy infantry transport to save costs and increase protection ?

    I am not sure I follow the understanding between the active russian army and the reserve russian army - this reserve army used for fighting in the CIS for low technology wars - is this the same as the amalgamation of the interior ministry troops, border guards and drug units? Is the intent to keep t72, t80 and t90 for the contractor/professional full time army and to use up all the t64,t62,t55,bmp1/2 in the reserve army?

    Will this reserve army be manned by conscripts or contractors as well?

    How do the russians think about return on investment in terms of equipment? I mean it cost them billions to make all these vehicles, how much use or return do they aim to get out of each vehicle before they decide to chuck them out? Is there a pre-determined number or rough goal? e.g. if they got 30 years service out of a single t62 then what happens to it next is not important as it achieved the desired return on investment so it doesnt matter if it gets scrapped, sold off, donated etc

    Sorry for the long list of questions, these are all thoughts i have been wondering about for the past 2 years or so

    This is how Object 187s look today, now imagine how look those 2k+ of T55s and T62s that RuMOD has in reserve.


    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1310
    Points : 1335
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  eehnie on Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:04 am

    Sorry for the long list of questions, these are all thoughts i have been wondering about for the past 2 years or so. They are ver interesting questions. I myself, I'm trying to find the answer to some.

    I am not sure I follow the understanding between the active russian army and the reserve russian army - this reserve army used for fighting in the CIS for low technology wars - is this the same as the amalgamation of the interior ministry troops, border guards and drug units? Is the intent to keep t72, t80 and t90 for the contractor/professional full time army and to use up all the t64,t62,t55,bmp1/2 in the reserve army? About the warfare, the active force includes the warfare working every day in the defense of Russia. The reserve includes the warfare owned by the Russian Armed Forces that is stored and out of the daily work (as consequence nothing to do with other security forces outside the Armed Forces that you mentioned). The reserve warfare is used in conflicts when the Russian gouvernment wants not to touch its active force and need not it. I look less about the soldiers and its status.

    When vehicles are put into storage in russia what are the conditions like, is it facilities protected from weather or are they just left out in the open to rust? For the warfare stored since years ago, the conditions have not been good. This begins to change for a little more modern warfare that begins to be stored recently.

    If you are going to leave them out in the open exposed to elements and they are going to decay why not just scrap them strait away, at least you make jobs for a period of time and can get some use out of old materials... The cost was very high for the big numbers of vehicles stored. Also to scrape them has a cost that was not affordable for all at the same time. The reserve warfare is to be used if needed, must be useful.

    Will this reserve army be manned by conscripts or contractors as well? The reserve warfare is used many times by former veteran soldiers that worked with them before.

    I was wondering, what has russia done with the 14,000 AFV that it retired a few years ago? According to the data these 14000 infantry armoured vehicles were moved from active service to the reserve. At the time it was not a reserve of infantry armoured vehicles, now there is a reserve of 15500 vehicles. Type by type the total numbers remain very close to the initial numbers. Only the BTR-50 disappeared.

    When Putin ordered the T55,T62 & T64 to be withdrawn from active service were they sold off or scraped or put into storage? What exactly is the plan for all these vehicles? Likely the first step was to move them also from the active service to the reserve. But in this case it has been more scrapping activity, as we can see in the reports of the sales and auctions of scrapping material. Also in this case the war of Syria had an important effect, since it has been reported the procurement of T-55 and T-62 to Syria. It is necessary to remember that the war started in 2011, almost at the same time than the plan of decommissions and scrapping.

    With the reduction in defence budget and the surplus of hulls will they go ahead with the t55 heavy infantry transport to save costs and increase protection ? Russia stoped in 2010 the development and procurement of most of the programs like this, this included. They do for other countries.

    Ive seen american documentary that afghanistan is still using t62's why doesnt russia supply them with replacement t62s to reduce its arsenal? They currently have 40 working vehicles left i think - just type into google "t62 stars and stripes" Surely the war in Syria is absorving the old Russian T-55 and T-62. Likely all them, in order to keep the strength of the Syrian Armed Forces in close levels to 2010.

    How do the russians think about return on investment in terms of equipment? I mean it cost them billions to make all these vehicles, how much use or return do they aim to get out of each vehicle before they decide to chuck them out? Is there a pre-determined number or rough goal? e.g. if they got 30 years service out of a single t62 then what happens to it next is not important as it achieved the desired return on investment so it doesnt matter if it gets scrapped, sold off, donated etc With higher investment on maintenance surely these vehicles would remain longer, but it requires more money. The strategy of scrapping the oldest material proved to be wrong for the US and their allies. Now the US backed militias in Syria must fight in trucks vs the Syrian Armed Forces, that have enough old tanks to keep the advantage despite some loses.

    Ive seen on wikipedia (dont know how reliable) that russia still has 7,000 BMP1's. Whats the current plan for all those, are they going to swap out main guns on them to BMP2 in future or let them rust in junkyards, sell them or auto-mate them into robot tanks? The Russian strategy of keeping the old material proved to be right in the War of Syria. The oldest material is proving to be good enough to win this war. The BMP-1 will likely wait its turn in the line of procurement.


    Last edited by eehnie on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic

    Posts : 57
    Points : 59
    Join date : 2016-10-13

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  MonkeymodelBananaRepublic on Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:25 pm

    Thank you for the informative replies!

    The weathering on object 187 is terrible and its only 30 years old, I can understand the poor condition tanks built before mid 1980s must be in. My country has less than 100 tanks and these are taken care of religiously, its hard to imagine leaving thousands of MBT out to rust or let them go. The scales of industry are unimaginable. So it would appear that as best can made out that over the last 2 years t55 & t62 have been scraped or left to their fate in junkyards. Wikipedia is very wrong in its webpage list of russian ground forces equipment, its saying there are still thousands in storage. Not a super high quality source i know, but only one i can find in english, for some reason warfare.be and warfare.ru dont work on my browser so i cannot see numbers they are listing for different pieces of equipment.

    t64 is being given in small numbers to donbass and otherwise at this stage kept in storage for reserve forces to use for future hybrid conflicts similar to ukraine i suppose? I havent heard of any sales the last 2 years of t64s, only 50 or so to the congo and they were from ukraine I think. I think uzbekistan has something in the order of almost 1,000 t64 inherited from USSR. It sounds like BMP1 for now are still being used in small numbers but will then go for scraping and junkyards before the end of this decade with arrival of new platforms. With such large numbers of old soviet vehicles where are these junkyards, they must be colossal in their size!? Are they located in the middle of no-where in russia or are they close to populated areas? My country does not have military junkyards to my knowledge.

    My numbers are not good - I think these 3 types of MBT added together are only 6,000 vehicles. What happened to the other 8,000 vehicles were there any notable sales to central asia or africa of this second hand equipment? North korea and afghanistan might have use for some of this stuff? From what I have seen sales to central asia have mostly been new items, not second hand e.g. T90, new t72s, new aircraft, bmp3s as there is a much larger profit to be made and it keeps arms industry working (reasonable).

    Will the MTLBs be kept for future or are they slated to be pulled as well?

    I wonder, once the syrian war is over the country will need replacement armaments and it will be bankrupt. It might be a good place to sell reserve equipment to afterall they would be familiar with it and i imagine prices that russia could get for them would be small and thus affordable for syria. Currently is russia supplying syria with some of its reserve vehicles as replacements for syrian losses? In the media i have only seen russia supplying brand new weapons like the yaks and t90s.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5533
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:47 pm

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic wrote:Thank you for the informative replies!

    The weathering on object 187 is terrible and its only 30 years old, I can understand the poor condition tanks built before mid 1980s must be in. My country has less than 100 tanks and these are taken care of religiously, its hard to imagine leaving thousands of MBT out to rust or let them go. The scales of industry are unimaginable. So it would appear that as best can made out that over the last 2 years t55 & t62 have been scraped or left to their fate in junkyards. Wikipedia is very wrong in its webpage list of russian ground forces equipment, its saying there are still thousands in storage. Not a super high quality source i know, but only one i can find in english, for some reason warfare.be and warfare.ru dont work on my browser so i cannot see numbers they are listing for different pieces of equipment.

    t64 is being given in small numbers to donbass and otherwise at this stage kept in storage for reserve forces to use for future hybrid conflicts similar to ukraine i suppose? I havent heard of any sales the last 2 years of t64s, only 50 or so to the congo and they were from ukraine I think. I think uzbekistan has something in the order of almost 1,000 t64 inherited from USSR. It sounds like BMP1 for now are still being used in small numbers but will then go for scraping and junkyards before the end of this decade with arrival of new platforms. With such large numbers of old soviet vehicles where are these junkyards, they must be colossal in their size!? Are they located in the middle of no-where in russia or are they close to populated areas? My country does not have military junkyards to my knowledge.

    My numbers are not good - I think these 3 types of MBT added together are only 6,000 vehicles. What happened to the other 8,000 vehicles were there any notable sales to central asia or africa of this second hand equipment? North korea and afghanistan might have use for some of this stuff? From what I have seen sales to central asia have mostly been new items, not second hand e.g. T90, new t72s, new aircraft, bmp3s as there is a much larger profit to be made and it keeps arms industry working (reasonable).

    Will the MTLBs be kept for future or are they slated to be pulled as well?

    I wonder, once the syrian war is over the country will need replacement armaments and it will be bankrupt. It might be a good place to sell reserve equipment to afterall they would be familiar with it and i imagine prices that russia could get for them would be small and thus affordable for syria. Currently is russia supplying syria with some of its reserve vehicles as replacements for syrian losses? In the media i have only seen russia supplying brand new weapons like the yaks and t90s.

    Look even worse inside:




    Now when its about numbers of reserve, some broad estimates are that only about 3k of T-55s and T-62s remain with about same amout of T-64s. Rest seem to be mainly scrapped , turned into targets on proving grounds, some canibalised completely and sold for spares around the world.

    Scrapping the tanks is actually expencive job. You need metalworks with big enough cranes and furnaces that can lift whole body of the tank to the melting "pot"  because cutting them is verrryyy expencive. They just disasemble them and then lift piece by piece without cutting, if cutting is required it kinda gets horribly expencive.

    Price of T-55 and T-62 on the market is 120-150 USD per ton, hence they are so cheap its not even worth scrapping them.
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 10258
    Points : 10744
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  George1 on Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:50 pm

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic wrote:Thank you for the informative replies!

    The weathering on object 187 is terrible and its only 30 years old, I can understand the poor condition tanks built before mid 1980s must be in. My country has less than 100 tanks and these are taken care of religiously, its hard to imagine leaving thousands of MBT out to rust or let them go. The scales of industry are unimaginable. So it would appear that as best can made out that over the last 2 years t55 & t62 have been scraped or left to their fate in junkyards. Wikipedia is very wrong in its webpage list of russian ground forces equipment, its saying there are still thousands in storage. Not a super high quality source i know, but only one i can find in english, for some reason warfare.be and warfare.ru dont work on my browser so i cannot see numbers they are listing for different pieces of equipment.

    t64 is being given in small numbers to donbass and otherwise at this stage kept in storage for reserve forces to use for future hybrid conflicts similar to ukraine i suppose? I havent heard of any sales the last 2 years of t64s, only 50 or so to the congo and they were from ukraine I think. I think uzbekistan has something in the order of almost 1,000 t64 inherited from USSR. It sounds like BMP1 for now are still being used in small numbers but will then go for scraping and junkyards before the end of this decade with arrival of new platforms. With such large numbers of old soviet vehicles where are these junkyards, they must be colossal in their size!? Are they located in the middle of no-where in russia or are they close to populated areas? My country does not have military junkyards to my knowledge.

    My numbers are not good - I think these 3 types of MBT added together are only 6,000 vehicles. What happened to the other 8,000 vehicles were there any notable sales to central asia or africa of this second hand equipment? North korea and afghanistan might have use for some of this stuff? From what I have seen sales to central asia have mostly been new items, not second hand e.g. T90, new t72s, new aircraft, bmp3s as there is a much larger profit to be made and it keeps arms industry working (reasonable).

    Will the MTLBs be kept for future or are they slated to be pulled as well?

    I wonder, once the syrian war is over the country will need replacement armaments and it will be bankrupt. It might be a good place to sell reserve equipment to afterall they would be familiar with it and i imagine prices that russia could get for them would be small and thus affordable for syria. Currently is russia supplying syria with some of its reserve vehicles as replacements for syrian losses? In the media i have only seen russia supplying brand new weapons like the yaks and t90s.

    even if Russia wants to sell its old t-55/62/64, BMPs, MTLBs etc they must find customers to buy it. You cant expect that russia offers for example to Uzbekistan to sell them old stuff and they just say yes we buy it. Why to do it? Are they going to have a war to need even old tanks?? of course no
    North Korea is a different case. There is embargo from UN and Russia also support it. The only equipment they have sold to N.Korea after the USSR era are some old BTRs and in very small numbers. And they have copied those types and produse their own tanks on old soviet type tank basis.
    Afghanistan has taken old equipment from a lot of countries but i think its in the form of donation. I doubt that they can give money even to buy sth old. Their Mi-17s are with US payment.
    And what we havent consider enough is that old T-55, BMP-1 almost exist in all these countries we discuss. Afghanistan, african countries already have them from soviet era. Look the Nicaragua example, they recently took T-72s from Russia, they didnt take T-55/T-62

    So for this old stuff the options are scraping or donation in small numbers is my conclusion


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1310
    Points : 1335
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  eehnie on Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:20 am

    I do not know if the pictures of the object 187 are from 2016 or before. It is necessary to take into account that these are prototypes of a tank that was not accepted and entered not in service. I really do not think that the stored T-55 or T-62 since the 1980s would be in worse condition. I doubt it.

    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16324
    Points : 16955
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:28 am

    My understanding was that they were very keen to get rid of the older tank types to reduce the types of ammo they need to stockpile for future use.

    Having T-34s in reserve means you have to keep 85mm ammo for them to be able to use.

    The same with the T-54/55 and T-62 where 100mm and 115mm ammo would need to be kept in stock to allow their use.

    AFAIK they actively removed old vehicles from the inventory including the T-64 and currently have only tanks with 125mm main guns.

    Upgrades and addons have mainly focussed on improving performance by replacing old equipment with new unified equipment.

    Originally the T-80 was a separate vehicle family that had nothing in common with the T-72 family except external looks. The current T-80s will have had upgrades and changes to make them more like the T72/90 family.

    As such I would say the T-54/55/62 vehicles you will see these days in Russia are for the purposes of selling upgrades to client states or target practise vehicles.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    d_taddei2

    Posts : 900
    Points : 1062
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:My understanding was that they were very keen to get rid of the older tank types to reduce the types of ammo they need to stockpile for future use.

    Having T-34s in reserve means you have to keep 85mm ammo for them to be able to use.

    The same with the T-54/55 and T-62 where 100mm and 115mm ammo would need to be kept in stock to allow their use.

    AFAIK they actively removed old vehicles from the inventory including the T-64 and currently have only tanks with 125mm main guns.

    Upgrades and addons have mainly focussed on improving performance by replacing old equipment with new unified equipment.

    Originally the T-80 was a separate vehicle family that had nothing in common with the T-72 family except external looks. The current T-80s will have had upgrades and changes to make them more like the T72/90 family.

    As such I would say the T-54/55/62 vehicles you will see these days in Russia are for the purposes of selling upgrades to client states or target practise vehicles.

    i agree, Russia should be pushing sales of T-54/55/62, i would imagine it would be fairly easy to upgrade the gun of the T-62 to 125mm and as for the T-64 i would also imagine T-72 upgrades could be applied. An upgraded T-64 would still pose a threat to other tanks. And as for the T-55 and T-62 these would still pose a threat to AFV, and be ideal to provide additional fire support for ground troops, i think the conflict in Syria has proved just how effective and usefull the T-55 has been and with only local upgrades in terms of caged armour and some basic North Korean upgrades have made them capable in this type of conflict. I think it all depends on many things, the current and future threat facing the purchasing country, cost, maintainence, ease of use/training, and if they currently have them already in stock. The T-55 is easy to use and maintain, light weight (in relation to other tanks) which in certain countries can be of use if there is many bridges and type of terrain which other heavier tanks might not be suitable.

    Russia is kinda lucky in the fact that they have something to sell for everyone in various budgets and needs, there will be some countries who currently have T-55/T-62 which might be looking for something heavier so Russia has the option of selling upgraded T-64 and T-72, and possibly T-80. And then they have the T-55/T-62 which they can sell upgraded for the cheaper/specific needs markets. And then the T-90 for countries who what and very good up to date modern fighting tank.

    A for Russia having T-55 in reserve this will be only for resale, Russia has enough T-72 to use these for reserve forces, and with upgrades these are very capable tanks, hence many T-72 have been brought back out of storage upgraded and replaced some of the more expensive to run T-80.

    I think the T-80 could prove a diffuclt item to sell on the international market, ideally the engine needs replacing to make it cost effective to maintain and use, but with upgrades already in existance for the T-72 (which Russia has 1,000's of) then it doesn't make sense to invest money in engine upgrades on the T-80. Although i am not sure if this has been done already or not. So the future of the T-80's i am unsure of what Russia has planned for them. Ideally Russia should focus on selling off T-55/T-62/T-64, then focus on selling the T-80 (if upgrades already exist) then on reducing T-72 numbers but keep enough in reserve for its own needs.

    As for the T-34 only real use now is infantry support where its 85mm gun still packs enough punch to destroy light armour/AFV, and ideal for bunkers/buildings. But lacking decent armour if could be vulnerable. Realistically its the chassis that has any use i know Syria has used it for mounting D-30 122mm howitzer, so you could ideally mount just about anything on it if you need a tracked chassis for the job, but then the MT-LB is better suited and a better vehicle.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16324
    Points : 16955
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:16 am

    i agree, Russia should be pushing sales of T-54/55/62, i would imagine it would be fairly easy to upgrade the gun of the T-62 to 125mm and as for the T-64 i would also imagine T-72 upgrades could be applied.

    Half the problem is that the countries that still operate T-54/55/62 are poor countries they are not going to make a huge amount of money out of... it is not a rich market.

    The other half of the problem is that most of the upgrades of the older tanks simply are based on putting equipment and systems from T-72 and newer vehicles on them... so it would be simpler to just sell upgraded T-72s or T-90s instead.

    the easiest and cheapest way to put a 125mm gun and its auto loader on a T-54/55/62 tank is to replace the turret with the turret from a T-72.

    The easiest way to upgrade the engine is to put the engine from an upgraded T-72 which will require the upgraded transmission from an upgraded T-72 as well.

    You end up replacing existing parts with parts from newer tanks... it is quicker and cheaper and easier to just sell upgraded T-72s or T-90s... the former as the cheap option and the latter as the better performance option.

    It is the same in aircraft... instead of MiG-23 or MiG-21 upgrades buying MiG-29M2 or MiG-35 is more in the interests of the Russian military industrial complex.

    An upgraded T-64 would still pose a threat to other tanks. And as for the T-55 and T-62 these would still pose a threat to AFV, and be ideal to provide additional fire support for ground troops, i think the conflict in Syria has proved just how effective and usefull the T-55 has been and with only local upgrades in terms of caged armour and some basic North Korean upgrades have made them capable in this type of conflict. I think it all depends on many things, the current and future threat facing the purchasing country, cost, maintainence, ease of use/training, and if they currently have them already in stock. The T-55 is easy to use and maintain, light weight (in relation to other tanks) which in certain countries can be of use if there is many bridges and type of terrain which other heavier tanks might not be suitable.

    For such customers the upgrade gun is not necessary... better optics and fire control systems, improved armour like cage and NERA, APS systems, and better communications systems are low cost but improve the performance and make them rather more effective.

    Russia is kinda lucky in the fact that they have something to sell for everyone in various budgets and needs, there will be some countries who currently have T-55/T-62 which might be looking for something heavier so Russia has the option of selling upgraded T-64 and T-72, and possibly T-80. And then they have the T-55/T-62 which they can sell upgraded for the cheaper/specific needs markets. And then the T-90 for countries who what and very good up to date modern fighting tank.

    Would be better if they could get rid of all the very old stuff and sell newer stuff instead as it would be easier to maintain and give better performance.

    There are many situations where any sort of tank is better than nothing.



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    eehnie

    Posts : 1310
    Points : 1335
    Join date : 2015-05-13

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  eehnie on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:16 pm

    By the end of 2017, after the last decommission wave, and the needs of supplies caused by the wars in Donbass and in Syria, some types of vehicles disappeared from the Russian arsenals. Only for the T-64 the timeline of potential supplies to friend countries of Russia can be longer. In some of these cases, not well updated sources like The Military Balance keep them as present still, but their data are erratic with the time. Bolded the weapons that have been present in Syria:

    SU-122

    ASU-57
    BM-14
    BM-16
    PT-76
    ASU-85
    ZSU-57-2

    FROG-7


    BTR-50 (TMB2004-2005 1000 units; TMB2017 >0 units)
    SA-9 (TMB2004-2005 >0 units; TMB2017 >0 units)
    BM-13 (TMB2004-2005 <50 units; TMB2017 100 units)
    T-62 (including engineering variants) (TMB2004-2005 3000 units; TMB2017 2500 units)
    T-55 (including engineering variants) (TMB2004-2005 <1360 units; TMB2017 >2800 units)
    T-64 (including engineering variants) (TMB2004-2005 4350 units; TMB 2017 2000 units )[/color]

    GT-MU
    T-54 (including engineering variants) (TMB2004-2005 0 units; TMB2017 >0 units)
    AT-T

    Sponsored content

    Re: Soviet era reserve vehicles.

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:15 am