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    National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee – NVA)

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    BTRfan

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    National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee – NVA)

    Post  BTRfan on Sat May 11, 2013 11:38 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The NVA [Nationale Volksarmee] was a joke compared to the Bundeswehr.

    Yeah... Germans... what would they know about fighting...


    I believe that their T-55s were seriously outclassed by the Leopard 1 series of tanks of the Bundeswehr, while the T-55s and M60 series tanks were on more equal footing, but the M60A3 series were clearly superior to the T-55s that the NVA had... As for the M48s and the T-55s, they were on essentially equal footing until the Bundeswehr began to deploy the heavily upgraded variants.

    Nobody could honestly claim that the NVA had any tanks even approaching the Leopard 2 series.



    In terms of quality of personnel, the Bundeswehr may well have had a leg up on the US Army.

    The Bundeswehr was a large for, especially for a NATO force... They were also well equipped and with quality weapons and weapons systems, for any force, NATO, WP, or other.



    Remember, the Soviets didn't trust the DDR with building their own heavy weapons or weapons systems. They basically only allowed the DDR to produce small arms, ammunition, and thin skinned vehicles.

    If the DDR had been allowed to produce their own T-72s, T-64s, or T-80s, they could have improved and modified/upgraded them and been quite a match for even the later versions of the Leopard 2. Heck, the basic T-80 is capable of going toe-to-toe with the Leopard 2 and it will be a true fight. But the T-64 would struggle against the Leopard 2 and the T-72 wouldn't last long... The T-55 would basically last as long as it took the Leopard 2 crew to see it, range it, and fire.
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    TR1

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    Re: National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee – NVA)

    Post  TR1 on Sat May 11, 2013 12:08 pm

    If anything, the M60 was a bigger challange to the T-55 than the Leo1.
    T-55 could penetrate Leopard with ease. Not the same is true with M-60.

    Btw contemporary T-72s could very well fight with contemporary Leopard 2s, as far as "hard" characteristics go.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee – NVA)

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat May 11, 2013 2:35 pm

    Well the joke at the time was that the NVA was a "real" German Army in the Prussian tradition while the Bundeswehr were a bunch of long haired hippies...

    Seriously though, the NVA was probably the best WP Army in terms of readiness and they had solid equipment

    BTRfan

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    Re: National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee – NVA)

    Post  BTRfan on Sat May 11, 2013 9:13 pm

    TR1 wrote:If anything, the M60 was a bigger challange to the T-55 than the Leo1.
    T-55 could penetrate Leopard with ease. Not the same is true with M-60.

    Btw contemporary T-72s could very well fight with contemporary Leopard 2s, as far as "hard" characteristics go.


    Are you talking about the T-72BA ERA?

    I'm not saying the Leopard 2 is better than modern versions of the T-72, but the basic T-72 that the DDR had in the late 1970s and early 1980s would have been easy pickings for the Leopard 2 of that era.
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    GarryB

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    Re: National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee – NVA)

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 12, 2013 1:19 pm

    I believe that their T-55s were seriously outclassed by the Leopard 1 series of tanks of the Bundeswehr, while the T-55s and M60 series tanks were on more equal footing,

    Sorry... what? A KV-1 had thicker frontal armour than a Leopard 1...

    At certain points in time different sides had different advantages... in the 70s I would say the thermal sight advantage of the west was not developed to a point where it would have as much an impact as most westerners seem to think. The advantage of the Soviets is that in almost every conceivable war it is a Soviet attack, which means the low mobility of the super heavy western tanks really counts against them. In the mid to late 1980s the improvements in electronics and armour shifts to the west but not completely, with Soviet tanks enjoying special armoured vehicles and ammo that is keeping pace with western improvements in armour, plus they have the enormous added advantage of the increasing deployment of Mig-29s and Su-27s with high off boresight missiles and helmet mounted sights... which would have been serious to the wests grip of the air... the Soviets could fight without air control... they learnt it and practise it and have their own air defence network. In the west the air defence is largely handled by their air forces.

    I'm not saying the Leopard 2 is better than modern versions of the T-72, but the basic T-72 that the DDR had in the late 1970s and early 1980s would have been easy pickings for the Leopard 2 of that era.

    I can't agree, you make it sound like it would be fought in a flat open desert where the Leopards could see the T-72s from great distances. Lets face it, the East Germans knew the Leopard has good optics so they will use smoke as a matter of course to negate their advantages, and of course use dead ground to get in close. I rather doubt the Leopard II would not do the same to ensure the effectiveness of its ammo.


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    BTRfan

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    Re: National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee – NVA)

    Post  BTRfan on Sun May 12, 2013 9:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    I can't agree, you make it sound like it would be fought in a flat open desert where the Leopards could see the T-72s from great distances. Lets face it, the East Germans knew the Leopard has good optics so they will use smoke as a matter of course to negate their advantages, and of course use dead ground to get in close. I rather doubt the Leopard II would not do the same to ensure the effectiveness of its ammo.


    If I am not mistaken the first several hundred Leopard 2 [initial version] tanks did not have thermal sights due to shortages and the fact that the thermal sights were not ready, but all other Leopard 2s [even the next bach of the initial/first version] had the thermal sights, and the original production run of 200 had the thermal sights put in soon after.

    Thermal sights are not impacted much by smoke, are they?
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    Regular

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    Re: National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee – NVA)

    Post  Regular on Mon May 13, 2013 2:30 am

    thermals can see through smoke no problem. Even WP smoke screen can only block vision when smoke is being produced by combustion but it doesn't last long. There is not much You can do to counter flir, anti-thermal covers weren't used back then
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    GarryB

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    Cold war tanks

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 13, 2013 3:43 pm

    There is not much You can do to counter flir, anti-thermal covers weren't used back then

    The use of dead ground and approaching from behind cover.


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    George1

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    Re: National People's Army (Nationale Volksarmee – NVA)

    Post  George1 Yesterday at 10:14 pm

    Participants in the combat groups of the working class (the armed paramilitary organization of the GDR) from Dresden during field training; 1978 year









    http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/1991593.html


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