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    Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:16 pm

    @TheArmenian: no problem buddy, thanks thumbsup

    This would be 220 mm version




    300 mm one


    And there is a combo version also. Although, I am pretty sure they could get away with using smaller truck...

    Can't post source because OP did not bother to post one... dunno
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:30 pm

    From what i conclude, Tornado is only modernization of older MRLSs? Not completely a new system?


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  franco on Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:56 pm

    George1 wrote:From what i conclude, Tornado is only modernization of older MRLSs? Not completely a new system?


    Not sure about how much the actual rockets have been modernized but the rest of the system is totally new. And would appear to also replace the Smerch by combining them into one vehicle with interchangeable rocket pods.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:39 pm

    technically this is just a serious upgrade of the electronics of the Grad, Uragan, and Smerch... the main difference however is that the Uragan and Smerch seem to now have a unified platform, and they are loaded in pallets instead of individually.



    This seems to show another 122mm pallet with 3 rows of 5 rockets in each pack.

    Has anyone see the 220mm rocket pallets?

    The 300mm 6 packs are visible in the picture above too.

    I would expect a 220mm rocket pack would include about 8 tubes so it equates (with two pallets) to the 16 tubes of Uragan... the Smerch 300mm rockets have 6 tubes each which matches the original system when two pallets are used of 12 rockets. The above 15 shot pallets of Grad 122mm is just short of the original system 30 instead of 40 which perhaps explains why the Grad has been replaced with a Grad with 40 fixed tubes instead of pallets.


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  franco on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:technically this is just a serious upgrade of the electronics of the Grad, Uragan, and Smerch... the main difference however is that the Uragan and Smerch seem to now have a unified platform, and they are loaded in pallets instead of individually.



    This seems to show another 122mm pallet with 3 rows of 5 rockets in each pack.

    Has anyone see the 220mm rocket pallets?

    The 300mm 6 packs are visible in the picture above too.

    I would expect a 220mm rocket pack would include about 8 tubes so it equates (with two pallets) to the 16 tubes of Uragan... the Smerch 300mm rockets have 6 tubes each which matches the original system when two pallets are used of 12 rockets. The above 15 shot pallets of Grad 122mm is just short of the original system 30 instead of 40 which perhaps explains why the Grad has been replaced with a Grad with 40 fixed tubes instead of pallets.

    A 12 round 220mm rocket pack (660x880) would be pretty close in size to a 6 round 300mm rocket pack (600x900) but I have not seen anything yet.

    Also those 122mm pods are 4x5 or 20 rounds each.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:technically this is just a serious upgrade of the electronics of the Grad, Uragan, and Smerch... the main difference however is that the Uragan and Smerch seem to now have a unified platform, and they are loaded in pallets instead of individually.



    This seems to show another 122mm pallet with 3 rows of 5 rockets in each pack.

    Has anyone see the 220mm rocket pallets?

    The 300mm 6 packs are visible in the picture above too.

    I would expect a 220mm rocket pack would include about 8 tubes so it equates (with two pallets) to the 16 tubes of Uragan... the Smerch 300mm rockets have 6 tubes each which matches the original system when two pallets are used of 12 rockets. The above 15 shot pallets of Grad 122mm is just short of the original system 30 instead of 40 which perhaps explains why the Grad has been replaced with a Grad with 40 fixed tubes instead of pallets.

    Look closer. 4x5.

    The Grad is being replaced by a Tornado-G model, but AFAIK it looks more or less the same as a normal Grad. So maybe its just a modernization, while the 122mm pallets will be used on similar size but new trucks tha might not be ready yet; which explains why we've only seen Uragan and Smersh sized trucks
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:58 am

    Well duh... I should look at these images at full size rather than glancing at the thumbnails.

    The Grad is being replaced by a Tornado-G model, but AFAIK it looks more or less the same as a normal Grad. So maybe its just a modernization, while the 122mm pallets will be used on similar size but new trucks tha might not be ready yet; which explains why we've only seen Uragan and Smersh sized trucks

    That is possible, but I suspect that the future plan is for the Grad lookalike Tornado-G to just replace the Grad vehicles... they seem to have fixed tubes rather than loaded pallets.

    TO me therefore I suspect the other vehicle we see with the separate pallets that seems to be a replacement for both the Uragan and Smerch that can carry two pallets so assuming 122mm, 220mm and 300mm pallets in any combination should be a useful flexible vehicle.

    On other vehicle we have seen is a light truck with a single pallet... now assuming the single pallet light truck uses standard pallets that means it could carry one 122mm, 220mm 0r 300mm pallet to support different units over different ranges of targets.

    This would mean for light units that use light rockets (122mm) they could use Tornado-G, while light mobile units might use the light truck Tornado with a single pallet capacity, while heavier units or units than need heavy fire power could use the other Tornado with the two pallets.


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    MLRS "Smerch" and "Tornado-S" will receive guided missiles

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:37 pm

    MLRS "Smerch" and "Tornado-S" will receive guided missiles

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151121/1325676321.html
    After Yandex translator:

    MOSCOW, 21 Nov — RIA Novosti. Guided missiles will be developed for reactive systems of volley fire (MLRS) "Smerch" and "Tornado-S", said Saturday the Deputy chief of Rocket troops and artillery (Rvia) of Russian Land forces the General-major Alexander Drahomaretskiy.
    "For "Smerch" and "Tornado-S" in the future will be developed guided missiles, which will carry out the exact defeat of the purposes",- said the General-the major in radio station interview "Russian news service".
    Earlier it was reported that MLRS "Tornado-S" will greatly enhance the capability of the troops. It will enhance the combat potential of the existing "Tornado" through the creation of a new family of rockets, new approaches and improvements that are associated with a geodetic reference guidance

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  George1 on Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:11 pm

    About 50 units of multiple launch rocket systems "Smerch", "Grad" and "Uragan" motorized rifle entered service in Western Military Region

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=3&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151202/1334254321.html&usg=ALkJrhgSIuo8Uc2qgolUoSCrqL5FXE5ObA


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  George1 on Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:37 pm

    Western MD artillery formation received 8 Uragan MLRS



    One of the Western MD artillery formations received 8 Uragan multiple launch rocket systems and 16 transport-loading vehicles. These systems are to raise combat capabilities of the formation while defensive and offensive operations.

    These MLRS are designed for engaging covered manpower, light-armored and armored combat hardware, artillery, tactic missile complexes, command and communication centers, and other infrastructural objects of the enemy.

    The 220mm Uragan systems are capable to perform firing by single projectiles as by full barrage at targets located in the area of about 40 hectares at the distance up to 35 kilometers. Each projectile weights 280 kg.

    It takes no more than three minutes to prepare the system for firing. Full barrage is performed in 20 seconds. The MLRS battery is ready to perform marching in a minute after firing.

    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12078125@egNews


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  airstrike on Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:47 am










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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:57 pm

    Russia will outfit its Smerch and Uragan heavy multiple rocket launchers with specially designed canvas tents to make them invisible to enemy satellites and radar, the Moscow-based newspaper Izvestia wrote.

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/russia/201701171049670624-russia-smerch-cloak/


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:49 pm

    MLRS "Uragan-1M" in St. Michael's military academy

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2429120.html


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:10 pm

    Since this thread is about Soviet era rockets launchers shouldn't it be relocated to the USSR history thread?
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:21 am

    Good point.


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  George1 on Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:23 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Since this thread is about Soviet era rockets launchers shouldn't it be relocated to the USSR history thread?

    i had it in Russian army because these old MRLS are still in service. And there are still news for these systems, e.g. Modernization of Grad, Uragan deployment etc
    MiG-29 and Su-25, Su-27 also are of soviet era but still in service with russian army


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  franco on Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:14 pm

    First new modern Smerch MRLS arrived at T'ver (79th brigade). First upgraded unit should be operational by summer.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12119092@egNews
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:55 am

    George1 wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Since this thread is about Soviet era rockets launchers shouldn't it be relocated to the USSR history thread?

    i had it in Russian army because these old MRLS are still in service. And there are still news for these systems, e.g. Modernization of Grad, Uragan deployment etc
    MiG-29 and Su-25, Su-27 also are of soviet era but still in service with russian army

    Makes sense.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:04 am

    franco wrote:First new modern Smerch MRLS arrived at T'ver (79th brigade). First upgraded unit should be operational by summer.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12119092@egNews

    "Seven Smerch multiple rocket launchers have arrived for the Western Military District’s rocket artillery brigade stationed in the Tver Region as part of the troops’ planned rearmament with modern weapon systems and equipment. Late this month, the arrival of another five combat vehicles is expected," the district’s press office said.
    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/941779


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:37 pm

    Scorching Power: Russia to Roll Out New Armata-Based Heavy Flamethrower

    A brand-new heavy flame-throwing system will enter service with the Russian Armed Forces in the next few years.

    The Russian Armed Forces is due to get the advanced heavy flame-throwing system Tosochka which will replace the TOS-1A Solntsepyok (Sunheat) heavy flamethrower currently in service.

    RIA Novosti quoted Nikolai Makarovets, chief designer of the Russian research and production association Splav, as saying that the Tosochka heavy flamethrower will be delivered in line with Russia's state armaments program for 2018-2025. Splav is dealing with the development of the Tosochka systems.

    "This is the development of the Solntsepyok project and unlike Solntsepyok, the new system will be equipped with a wheeled chassis. Experience of operating heavy flamethrowers in desert areas has indicated wheeled chassis are the best option," Makarovets during the ongoing MAKS-2017 airshow.

    In an interview with Sputnik, Russian military expert Viktor Murakhovsky specifically focused on characteristics of the Tosochka system.

    Referring to Solntsepyok, he recalled that "the heavy flame-throwing system was first mounted on the chassis of the T-72 battle tank and then – on the T-90 tank's chassis."


    "The main elements of the TOS system include a transport launch canister which contains an unguided rocket equipped with a warhead with a flamethrower-incendiary mixture. There is another option, with a thermobaric warhead which is related to the so-called vacuum ammunition," Murakhovsky said.

    He added that "the next stage of the development of this system stipulates increasing the range of fire and equipping the system with corrected projectiles which hit the target more accurately and effectively."

    According to him, the Tosochka flame-throwing system can be mounted on the sophisticated Armata tracked vehicle platform.

    "Also on the table is the option that one of the vehicles of the Armata family — a new generation of Russian armored vehicles — will also be used as a chassis for the new heavy flame-throwing system," Murakhovsky said.

    He noted that the heavy flame-throwing systems are widely used in the fight against terrorists.

    "For example, the Iraqi Armed Forces used them during the liberation of Mosul, and these systems were also seen in Syria," Murakhovsky concluded.

    The TOS-1A Solntsepyok, in turn, is an upgraded version of the TOS-1 Buratino heavy flame-throwing system which underwent its first combat tests in Afghanistan in 1988-1989.

    In his article for the National Interest last year, defense analyst Sebastien Roblin described the TOS-1 as one of "the most devastating explosive weapons short of tactical nuclear weapons."

    The current effective firing range of the TOS-1A system is about six kilometers. The new shell is expected to increase the new Tosochka flame-throwing system's range to ten kilometers, that is, by 40 percent. The improved range is expected to be achieved in part via a new fuel/explosive mixture inside the shell.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707221055782339-russia-flamethrower-development-armata-platform/


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:28 pm

    Here a quick question why is it that the west never used a similar system to BM-21? They used systems similar to BM-27 & BM-30 but not the grad. It's almost similar situation with 2S1. Where the west mostly focused on 155mm SP artillery.

    One think you notice is that the soviets/Russia always had loads of Bm-21 and 2S1 to provide commanders and troops on the ground ready fire support. When I was in the forces we had to depend on 81mm mortars. 105mm light gun, AS-90 and MLRS was on the battlefield but when you requested fire support it was normally rejected as some other priority came up which is fine but then troops on the ground suffer and it hampers progress or puts in danger defensive lines. I know British troops would love to have access to 2S1 or Bm-21 as fire support and this would still free up the heavier stuff like AS-90 and MLRS. I always thought that we were always lacking firepower amongst other things. The Soviets even have 120mm mortars and 82mm automatic mortar 2B9 vaselik which I think is brilliant system and more versatile that standard 82mm mortar .
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  Interlinked on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:43 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:Here a quick question why is it that the west never used a similar system to BM-21? They used systems similar to BM-27 & BM-30 but not the grad. It's almost similar situation with 2S1. Where the west mostly focused on 155mm SP artillery.

    One think you notice is that the soviets/Russia always had loads of Bm-21 and 2S1 to provide commanders and troops on the ground ready fire support. When I was in the forces we had to depend on 81mm mortars. 105mm light gun, AS-90 and MLRS was on the battlefield but when you requested fire support it was normally rejected as some other priority came up which is fine but then troops on the ground suffer and it hampers progress or puts in danger defensive lines. I know British troops would love to have access to 2S1 or Bm-21 as fire support and this would still free up the heavier stuff like AS-90 and MLRS. I always thought that we were always lacking firepower amongst other things. The Soviets even have 120mm mortars and 82mm automatic mortar 2B9 vaselik which I think is brilliant system and more versatile that standard 82mm mortar .


    Because they were confident of their fighter bombers, IMO. There are advantages and disadvantages, and it would be great to have both whenever they are needed, but that's the only thing I can think of.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:52 am

    Not strictly true... the West Germans had the LARS system in 110mm calibre.

    Very simply cheap simple weapons don't have enough profit potential so the idea never really took off.

    The US MLRS had an expensive chassis (based on the Bradley IFV which only the US uses so NATO countries adopting MLRS have to adopt a new vehicle too) and rather expensive but still not guided standard missiles and options for much more expensive guided missiles.

    The west also had smaller calibre artillery guns than the 155mm... the British Abbott springs to mind in 105mm.

    Their main problem was lack of an effective gun in a smaller calibre.... the 105 was a good tank gun, but not very efficient in the artillery role.

    The Soviets even have 120mm mortars and 82mm automatic mortar 2B9 vaselik which I think is brilliant system and more versatile that standard 82mm mortar .

    The Germans were so impressed with the fire power of the 120mm mortars they adopted them and deployed them widely during WWII.

    Rockets are very good for delivering a large amount of HE on the target rapidly. Tube artillery was good for hitting specific point targets without using up too much ammo.

    Rockets were also a good way of delivering chem and bio weapons in high concentrations rapidly...  Embarassed

    Because they were confident of their fighter bombers, IMO. There are advantages and disadvantages, and it would be great to have both whenever they are needed, but that's the only thing I can think of.

    That is the difference... the Russian Army does not expect air support 24/7.. the west clearly does.

    The irony is that the west has a powerful air arm but the Soviets had a very powerful air defence capability too... I don't know how long western air power could continue to operate over a battlefield covered in MANPADS and TOR and Tunguska et al.


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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:36 am

    Interlinked wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Here a quick question why is it that the west never used a similar system to BM-21? They used systems similar to BM-27 & BM-30 but not the grad. It's almost similar situation with 2S1. Where the west mostly focused on 155mm SP artillery.

    One think you notice is that the soviets/Russia always had loads of Bm-21 and 2S1 to provide commanders and troops on the ground ready fire support. When I was in the forces we had to depend on 81mm mortars. 105mm light gun, AS-90 and MLRS was on the battlefield but when you requested fire support it was normally rejected as some other priority came up which is fine but then troops on the ground suffer and it hampers progress or puts in danger defensive lines. I know British troops would love to have access to 2S1 or Bm-21 as fire support and this would still free up the heavier stuff like AS-90 and MLRS. I always thought that we were always lacking firepower amongst other things. The Soviets even have 120mm mortars and 82mm automatic mortar 2B9 vaselik which I think is brilliant system and more versatile that standard 82mm mortar .


    Because they were confident of their fighter bombers, IMO. There are advantages and disadvantages, and it would be great to have both whenever they are needed, but that's the only thing I can think of.

    Hell trying to get aircraft support was even harder than trying to get artillery support. The biggest problem was lack of artillery etc. There just wasn't enough and even was prioritised meaning it was unlikely any help would come a lot of the time we just had to depend on 81mm which the mortar were very accurate with normally on the second round they would be on target and sometimes it took third round but the guys were very good. But lacked power. So the soviets / Russians had it better not only fire power but also having enough to support their troops. They have variety of artillery /missile options as well Mi-24 and Su-25 while we had 81mm mortar, 105mm light gun, AS -90, MLRS, (that's only 4 options in small numbers ) and lynx armed with TOW (apache was just arriving into service) and harriers, tornado, and jaguars. But like I said they were mostly used on pre-planned missions and none these were nothing like Mi-24 or Su-25 which were more suitable for the job.
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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan. TOS-1

    Post  Interlinked on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:33 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:

    Hell trying to get aircraft support was even harder than trying to get artillery support. The biggest problem was lack of artillery etc. There just wasn't enough and even was prioritised meaning it was unlikely any help would come a lot of the time we just had to depend on 81mm which the mortar were very accurate with normally on the second round they would be on target and sometimes it took third round but the guys were very good. But lacked power. So the soviets / Russians had it better not only fire power but also having enough to support their troops. They have variety of artillery /missile options as well Mi-24 and Su-25 while we had 81mm mortar, 105mm light gun, AS -90,  MLRS, (that's only 4 options in small numbers ) and lynx armed with TOW  (apache was just arriving into service) and harriers, tornado, and jaguars. But like I said they were mostly used on pre-planned missions and none these were nothing like Mi-24 or Su-25 which were more suitable for the job.


    Absolutely true. Getting timely air support usually means that the appropriate type of aircraft needs to be loitering around the area, which most were not suited for if they were carrying a heavy payload. If they replace some of their payload with drop tanks, they can loiter longer but can't hit hard, or they can't go back for a second run if their first was not effective. Also, it was difficult if not impossible to prevent an artillery attack on your positions whereas it was possible to deter aircraft by employing heavy anti-aircraft systems or by incurring heavy losses, which are much harder to replace than tube or rocket artillery. But even if the anti-aircraft systems could not reliably shoot you down, being painted by powerful radar stations would make most pilots bugger off immediately. A stream of tracers flying at you would do the job as well. Countering the radar stations would require having a specialized ECM escort, but how many of those are available? With hindsight, it's obvious that investing in artillery was definitely the more rational choice.

    Soviet artillery was also just better. There's no other way to put it. Early on, the 130mm M-46 outranged practically all Western artillery pieces, even 155mm guns developed decades later like the M198. Newer guns like the Giatsint-B not only outranged all 155mm guns, but also featured innovations like a powered chain rammer so that a high rate of fire could be sustained. Red Army soldiers also had the fortune of having MT-LBs to tow those field guns. They could get artillery support practically everywhere, and fast moving divisions could be supported by the amphibious Gvozdika.

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