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    Russian APC/AFV armor

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    Militarov
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:46 am

    kvs wrote:
    Benya wrote:Guys, I really don't want to join into your argument, but...

    ... I cannot understand that how can you start a 2 pages long argument about...

    Weldings.

    I cannot comprehend that some botched up weldings can start a "flame war". I'm perfectly aware of the fact that bad weldings can cause structural problems and whatnot, plus they can somewhat hinder the protection quality of the armor, but it's none of our business as we cannot judge them by just looking at it, and our opinion will hardly affect the way that the welders of ArzamasMashZavod will weld the armor plates of BTRs.

    I have to admit that I'm not an expert welder, but indeed, those are some really bad looking welds, but wheter they are bad or not, only physical tests can tell.

    So, "bad looking" shouldn't always mean "bad quality".

    By that logic, I mean if that this "badly welded BTR" successfully passes through factory and then field tests then it can be accepted into service. If that bad look is really a serious issue, then all they have to do is to grab an angle-grinder and some liters of paint, and the thing is done.

    If it fails, then it will be sent back for some rework. The earlier they spot the problem, the earlier they can fix it. It is still better if the BTR fails in peacetime (from field tests to military exercises/drills), than in wartime, when it can cost lives of Russian soldiers.

    Plus, if one BTR has bad looking weldings, that doesn't mean that the entire fleet of BTR-80s/82s of the Russian Army could fall into pieces at any moment.

    The only reason there is a "flame war" is because a couple of trolls insist that readers of this board believe without question their
    claim that they can evaluate the quality of these welds based on inspection of a few internet posted photos.   That is simply certifiable.
    It is physically impossible to state based on the posted photos that these welds are bad.  There is no obvious sign of cracking, excessive
    perforation and plate deformation.   The only thing these two trolls have is their subjective criterion for smoothness of the weld.    I posted
    an example of a perfect weld which clearly fails this BS criterion.   Thus both these trolls fail and should be banned from further posting in
    this thread.

    You are naturally aware welds are first inspected visually right? Apparently not.

    Oh yes, ban me please, i wont be able to live anymore.
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    GarryB
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:57 am

    Yes we are trolls, thats is why i have 5000 posts on Russian defence forum, because i am troll... from Serbia... trolling Russians...serving in Serbian military, married to a Russian... right.... if that makes sense go for it.

    The "black people can't be racist" defence... Doesn't wash.

    Bad-to-horrible BTR-80 welds seems to make Garry and others uncomfortable.

    I could care less about the wields on an armoured vehicle. It was the circle jerk by you and Mil that somehow no one in russia could wield that got my attention as being obvious trolling.

    Pointing out the obvious seems to get a talibanesque treatment in this forum from the strοnk crowd.

    The obvious wasn't the problem. The leap from "This is a bad wield" to no one at Arazmas can wield any more was the problem.

    Then depending on where or what the welds are they get inspected by x-rays or various other equipment for cracks and quite long list of other defects.

    Don't you mean photos are posted on the internet and experts like you and KG evaluate them...

    Why bother with equipment like portable xray equipment if you can just determine the quality visually from a photo on the internet?

    Oh yes, ban me please, i wont be able to live anymore.

    Drama queen.


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    Militarov
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Yes we are trolls, thats is why i have 5000 posts on Russian defence forum, because i am troll... from Serbia... trolling Russians...serving in Serbian military, married to a Russian... right.... if that makes sense go for it.

    The "black people can't be racist" defence... Doesn't wash.

    Bad-to-horrible BTR-80 welds seems to make Garry and others uncomfortable.

    I could care less about the wields on an armoured vehicle. It was the circle jerk by you and Mil that somehow no one in russia could wield that got my attention as being obvious trolling.

    Pointing out the obvious seems to get a talibanesque treatment in this forum from the strοnk crowd.

    The obvious wasn't the problem. The leap from "This is a bad wield" to no one at Arazmas can wield any more was the problem.

    Then depending on where or what the welds are they get inspected by x-rays or various other equipment for cracks and quite long list of other defects.

    Don't you mean photos are posted on the internet and experts like you and KG evaluate them...

    Why bother with equipment like portable xray equipment if you can just determine the quality visually from a photo on the internet?

    Oh yes, ban me please, i wont be able to live anymore.

    Drama queen.

    /care
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    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:46 pm

    Jesus guys, we have first hand evidence of Russian/Soviet military making up with scraps for a long time. During Crimean blockade, we saw Franken 74M's, here it's reconditioned BTR80's into 82's. Why this fuss. In Ukraine we saw fucking Frontal Glacis improperly arranged on T64 BV's. Yes sometimes these things will happen when you need the output. Why is this so hard to either get over or accept?

    It's a damn shame, these things can't be dealt with some calm and tranquillity. No, it's no personal offense to anyone here to point out people cutting corners.
    Hell this is what a military minded forum (or any trade minded forum should look too).

    Hell I'm of the opinion such "fails" should be gotten together in a maxi thread. How much the MIC is ready to fuck you up for the buck/kopek.

    Jesus calm the fuck down.
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    KiloGolf
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:56 pm

    kvs wrote:Yo, retard, your eyeballs can't determine the quality of these welds from a few photos.

    Visual inspection is key for welds, especially those horrible examples.

    yo lol1
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:Don't you mean photos are posted on the internet and experts like you and KG evaluate them

    I am actually but that's not the point, I'm posting here neither as an Engineer nor a Weld specialist. We pointed out the obvious and you started foaming and trolling with strοnkisms. Can't wait for more walls of text now (...)
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:18 am

    You did not point out the obvious.

    You can't post an image on the internet and draw the conclusion that it be obvious that everyone at a company is incompetent.



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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:You did not point out the obvious.

    You can't post an image on the internet and draw the conclusion that it be obvious that everyone at a company is incompetent.


    I never claimed one can draw conclusions from all images, but most provide initial clues on welding going wrong.
    The gap between base metal plates is conclusive though.
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    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:11 am

    Once again so this can be laid to rest.

    The BTR(s) we are seeing in the picture are conversions from BTR-80 to newer standard.

    Here you can see the definitive tell tale of such conversion.





    Check where the huge 2 o'clock weld (which is a capital repair since it touches to the hull integrity) is, it actually serves as a patch to the 2 o'clock port.
    The welds on the breaking line are probably because the BTR was "strengthened" in some way (most probably the spall liner insertions required gutting) thus there was some rough play with the front hull.
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    Militarov
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:56 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Once again so this can be laid to rest.

    The BTR(s) we are seeing in the picture are conversions from BTR-80 to newer standard.

    Here you can see the definitive tell tale of such conversion.





    Check where the huge 2 o'clock weld (which is a capital repair since it touches to the hull integrity) is, it actually serves as a patch to the 2 o'clock port.
    The welds on the breaking line are probably because the BTR was "strengthened" in some way (most probably the spall liner insertions required gutting) thus there was some rough play with the front hull.

    I don have problem with WHY welds are there. I have problem with HOW the welds have been done. They wouldnt weld if there was no need to i am sure of that.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:08 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Once again so this can be laid to rest.

    The BTR(s) we are seeing in the picture are conversions from BTR-80 to newer standard.

    Here you can see the definitive tell tale of such conversion.





    Check where the huge 2 o'clock weld (which is a capital repair since it touches to the hull integrity) is, it actually serves as a patch to the 2 o'clock port.
    The welds on the breaking line are probably because the BTR was "strengthened" in some way (most probably the spall liner insertions required gutting) thus there was some rough play with the front hull.

    I don have problem with WHY welds are there. I have problem with HOW the welds have been done. They wouldnt weld if there was no need to i am sure of that.

    The welds were done because it was cheaper to convert, and because the liner has been problematic (find BTR-80A conversions, they were more or less done the same way). This doesn't mean the welds are good or AMZ has done a nice work but that these welds tend to be there and look the way they look because of structural integrity issues after modernization, including re-inforcing supports for the liner and element repairs within the hull, which means some vehicles were sliced in parts and put together from existing material.

    So yeah it looks ugly but every patched sweater looks ugly.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  kvs on Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:30 pm

    All of this talk about ugly is vapid subjective BS. Where are the objective metrics of structural integrity? The only thing the "experts"
    here have is their eyeballs perceiving weld roughness. I have posted a photograph of a rough weld where the joint is ideal and nearly
    identical to the steel in the adjoined plates. This one photograph nullifies all the yapping in this thread by eyeball roughness measurement
    "experts".

    NATzO vermin are utterly pathetic if they think they will defeat Russia because of weld roughness. Desperate, hysterical freaks who
    are completely insecure below their thin veneer of trash talking and pretensions of superiority.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:16 pm

    kvs wrote:All of this talk about ugly is vapid subjective BS.   Where are the objective metrics of structural integrity?   The only thing the "experts"
    here have is their eyeballs perceiving weld roughness.   I have posted a photograph of a rough weld where the joint is ideal and nearly
    identical to the steel in the adjoined plates.    This one photograph nullifies all the yapping in this thread by eyeball roughness measurement
    "experts".

    NATzO vermin are utterly pathetic if they think they will defeat Russia because of weld roughness.   Desperate, hysterical freaks who
    are completely insecure below their thin veneer of trash talking and pretensions of superiority.








    This is special NATO weld inspection board, its made specially to make these welds above to look bad. I made it together with Kilo and group of experts from NATO.



    Here, so you can get some basic knowledge about welds yourself.

    Ty, please, stop bothering us with your NATO obsessions its getting very....disturbing, to say at least.

    Could all now, switch back to BTR topic when we concluded this quality control issue, for the love of God.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 02, 2017 6:54 am

    Could all now, switch back to BTR topic when we concluded this quality control issue, for the love of God.

    But how can we possibly switch back to talking about the BTR when we know no one in Russia can wield.

    Ty, please, stop bothering us with your NATO obsessions its getting very....disturbing, to say at least.

    Understandable NATO obsessions when you and Kilo set the standard for NATO training on wielding:

    This is special NATO weld inspection board, its made specially to make these welds above to look bad. I made it together with Kilo and group of experts from NATO.

    If only them dumb Russians were as smart and clever and as well trained as NATO.

    Maybe you could set up a youtube channel and teach them?


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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Regular on Tue May 02, 2017 3:21 pm

    I've only seen problems with early SPM-1 Gaz Tigr. Interior troops were complaining that it was rusting to shit too. But it was 2009 so could be different now. It was widely discussed with scepticism back when Tigr was rare sight.
    I know plenty of Russian welders working in Celsa group factories (BRC and Rom) and Scotland (underwater welders) and last year I've met some of them in Dubai working when they were producing rebar and pilings for our object. Ofc it's not the same thing, but Russians are good specialists are sought internationally and only explanation would be that they rather be employed by civilian companies or do contract jobs abroad. Plenty of Russians working in China.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 02, 2017 3:25 pm

    Private sector is sought due to wages. Mil complex only recently (under rostec) seen wage increases. Probably due to demand in the trade fields. Can't compete against wages from Gazprom, rosneft, lukoil, etc.

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