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    Russian APC/AFV armor

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    KiloGolf
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:21 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:So no western vehicle has had any welding quality problem?

    BTW can poor welds be redone?

    Not the Leos we built, at least not that I know of.

    We actually faced severe and pre-mature (relative to cyclic life) turret armor cracking problems in the first production batch of the tank which was eventually rectified. That delayed entry to service for a good year or two. But general welding quality was high as per strict TUV certification that METKA followed. So inspection during quality control sufficed to keep welds to the proper standard. The military also repeated inspections during acceptance and in fact they found the aforementioned cracking problems.

    When you pay hard cash you try and keep these things in check. So in short welding quality is not a problem that correct protocols can't control/fix.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:31 am

    Russian quality improves overtime, that weld is horrible but it could just be a one time f*** up type thing. I like the way our BTR-82As come out now a days. Too bad I could never see one in person Sad
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:32 am

    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.

    Yeah... the Germans said as much during WWII about those T-34s.

    A fairly simple RWS with a 50 cal and/or a GMG would've been better.

    Wat?

    How could a simple remote weapon station with a 50 can and or a rifle calibre machine gun be better than a manned turret with a 14.5mm HMG and a PKT machine gun?

    The former would cost rather more than the latter and still not have better performance.

    Fuel line got a spark. Probably bad ammo storage to boot.

    Usually takes more than a spark to get Russian diesel burning... no surprise with those tires burning but I suspect more than just a spark and leaking fuel.

    The problem with that BTR is that their welders have no idea what they're doing or simply nobody checks on their work thoroughly.

    Internet warriors jump to conclusions...

    Now, sorry if i might hurt your feelings, i tend to agree with someone who spent lifetime working on armor, than someone who spends days barking on everyone on forum for pointing out anything wrong about Russian military or industry, and insulting them calling them nazis and similar.

    Photos have been posted out of context... please complete a full report on the vehicles involved and who the customer was and further information as to why their wields are the way they are.

    For all we know they might have been taken in the Ukraine which means they might have been very early preproduction models done in a hurry and dumped as soon as possible to help out a neighbour.

    Of it might just be that the wields are fine but look rather bad externally and you are just being a prissy bitch about it.

    Also, seriously, stop insulting everyone who is disagreeing with you, you are being annoying sack of shit.

    So you are basically telling him to stop insulting people (you) and then you insult him. Makes me feel better about calling you a prissy bitch... Smile

    Is weld quality a chronic issue or are these welds a few bad apples? Can we expect other russian AFVs to have similar weld quality? Is there a chance the factory has a labour shortage and accepts lower skilled workers. It seems that they put some effort in the weld, but just have a lack of skill.

    Obviously no body in Russia can wield metal... the skill has been lost.

    Mil and KG should move to Russia right now and make millions showing them how to do it right...


    Skilled welders are lacking everywhere, so i saw many bad welds on Serbian Lazar 2/3 for an example too, same like on Russian counterparts simply painted over... so its not only Russian thing.

    There you go Komissar Bojanchev... It is not a Russian thing to wield badly... it is a prissy bitch western thing to whine about it on internet forums...



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    Militarov
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:24 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Are there any examples of badly welded first line NATO vehicles, such as Challenger 2, Puma, or VBCL?

    Occasionally, yes. Germans rarely allow themself such things, but i saw personally shitty welds on French AMX-30 for an example.

    Now its hard to see quality of welds on many modern IFVs-APCs as they are with addon armor very often. But i saw that Slovenian welding on their Patria variant was....perfect.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:39 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Are there any examples of badly welded first line NATO vehicles, such as Challenger 2, Puma, or VBCL?

    Many years ago I was part of a chat with some of our people that inspected the BMP-3, when there were thoughts of purchasing it.
    Their comments on the welding and hull quality were unanimous, it was very poor, terrible. Especially given the money that the Russians asked.

    Our guys were experienced in this as our Leopard 2A6HEL were built and welded here.
    TUV certified stuff.

    I do remember articles on Janes magazine regarding BMP-3 sales to Greece and issues with "comfort of the crew and production quality" but i did not know it was refering to welding, i was betting on cabling or something of a sort.

    Military police here had TAB-71 (Romanian variant of BTR-60 lets say), and they were probably welded by drunk left handers while hanging head-down from the factory roof, it was even worse than the photos above, like ALOT worse.

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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:50 am

    kvs wrote:More purty pictures that are supposed to prove that the eyeballs of the Cruise Princess and his sidekick can evaluate weld quality from
    a few photos without any indication of cracking or plate deformation.   The appearance of welds on the T-34 was not purty but did its job.  
    And to trot out pictures of machine generated welds and then use them "evaluate" hand welds is just retarded.    If the BTR welds required
    machine level control they would have used a machine.   Here you show that you are a NATzO fanboi by implicitly claiming that Russia does
    not have such capability.

    Take this fanboi crap to the myriad of NATzO circle jerk fora where you can prove to yourselves over and over what superior
    lifeforms you are and how nothing Russia or the USSR ever produced had any serious job performance because the welds were
    all shit and such.

    https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/170220-when-talking-about-armor-quality/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Welding/comments/18b133/t34_tank_welds/


    Cracking and plate deformation from welding? Well that would be a sight. If welder manages to deform steel plate while welding with conventional welding he should seek other job, like asap.

    Guess what, T-34 was wartime production where it was welded by women and teenagers, 70 years ago. Do you have any idea how welding changed since? How precise modern welding equipment is compared to what we available back then. Its like saying how it doesnt matter if Ford Focus is rusting alot, Ford-T was rusing too... yeah... 80 years ago it did.

    Also judging by my father T-34 welds shattered more than once on low temperatures during exploatation in Yugoslavia, so additional welding and even reinforcing was done on those examples. So T-34 is really bad example to justify bad welding.

    Those photos are hand-made welds not machined ones, with a difference that guy is good, very good actually.

    And can you... for the love of God.... stop chanting BS about nazis, Nato.. fanboys... its driving me nuts. Either give some argument or stop replying to me i am not interested.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:54 am

    This is why you don't throw a picture (or ten) and run away with it.

    1. No body tried to find a BTR close up (there's one at PrimePortal so you can compare).
    2. No body tried to find context to these pictures (just like with the BTR-82 flaming, no one has a context, just heee hoo).
    3. No body tries to get a grip on "welds" and their usage, but we've gone as far as having the external casing of the Aistenok as the proof Russians can't weld.

    Now allow me to retort.

    The welds for the GR BTR's are all from reconditioned hulls, all of them. You can see one has had a Capital repair on the frontal bulge, not unlike the early BTR80A conversions. All the rest is proof some of these hulls the RG is getting, come out of storage.


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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:00 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:So no western vehicle has had any welding quality problem?

    BTW can poor welds be redone?

    They probably do, however good welders in Germany (for an example) get paid obscene amounts of money and quality control forces them to fix bad welds when they occur. Welds get inspected both visually and with means of various dedicated equipment, there are an actual people called Certified Welding Inspector.

    And yes, welds in most of the cases can be redone or repaired, if not then depends, you cut the decayed metal, and make two welds with an insert, or similar, but that depends on application and is being decided mostly by engineers rather than welders.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  kvs on Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:39 pm

    Militarov wrote:




    Anyone who thinks the above hand welds are bad is either ignorant, malicious or both.    Clearly hand welds were considered sufficient
    for these elements of the vehicle.     I dare you Russian-hating twats to show me vastly superior NATzO hand welds.    Come on,
    you love to post pictures as if you have a clue as to what they mean.  

    The key detail here, you hater prats, is that hand welds were used.  



    Oh my gawd what a horrible weld since it don't look all purty and nice at the surface.[/quote]
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:03 pm

    kvs wrote:Anyone who thinks the above hand welds are bad is either ignorant, malicious or both.    Clearly hand welds were considered sufficient
    for these elements of the vehicle.     I dare you Russian-hating twats to show me vastly superior NATzO hand welds.    Come on,
    you love to post pictures as if you have a clue as to what they mean.  

    You picked the good-ish ones.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:22 pm

    You guys are tempting me to become vehicle a welder in Russia Smile
    More pay than in Bulgaria, cheap living. Less competition. And I would be getting close to AFVs which would make the work interesting.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:44 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:You guys are tempting me to become vehicle a welder in Russia Smile
    More pay than in Bulgaria, cheap living. Less competition. And I would be getting close to AFVs which would make the work interesting.

    If you are really good welder, plenty of jobs especially in shipbuilding.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:47 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:




    Anyone who thinks the above hand welds are bad is either ignorant, malicious or both.    Clearly hand welds were considered sufficient
    for these elements of the vehicle.     I dare you Russian-hating twats to show me vastly superior NATzO hand welds.    Come on,
    you love to post pictures as if you have a clue as to what they mean.  

    The key detail here, you hater prats, is that hand welds were used.  



    Oh my gawd what a horrible weld since it don't look all purty and nice at the surface.

    "Anyone who thinks the above hand welds are bad is either ignorant, malicious or both. " - Or simply knows how good weld looks? Can you go and die now because nothing you say will make those welds good... welds are shit, you are shit, go away.

    Also, welds i posted are HANDMADE WELDS too. Majority of welds on tanks and IFVs are hand welds. Same is on Leo2, Merkava, Typhoon, Patria, BMP3...
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:53 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:This is why you don't throw a picture (or ten) and run away with it.

    1. No body tried to find a BTR close up (there's one at PrimePortal so you can compare).
    2. No body tried to find context to these pictures (just like with the BTR-82 flaming, no one has a context, just heee hoo).
    3. No body tries to get a grip on "welds" and their usage, but we've gone as far as having the external casing of the Aistenok as the proof Russians can't weld.

    Now allow me to retort.

    The welds for the GR BTR's are all from reconditioned hulls, all of them. You can see one has had a Capital repair on the frontal bulge, not unlike the early BTR80A conversions. All the rest is proof some of these hulls the RG is getting, come out of storage.


    No, they actually can weld, they just made them shit so they confuse military intelligence. Suspect

    Photos were taken upon recieving modernised BTR into unit from the factory.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.

    Yeah... the Germans said as much during WWII about those T-34s.

    A fairly simple RWS with a 50 cal and/or a GMG would've been better.

    Wat?

    How could a simple remote weapon station with a 50 can and or a rifle calibre machine gun be better than a manned turret with a 14.5mm HMG and a PKT machine gun?

    The former would cost rather more than the latter and still not have better performance.

    Fuel line got a spark. Probably bad ammo storage to boot.

    Usually takes more than a spark to get Russian diesel burning... no surprise with those tires burning but I suspect more than just a spark and leaking fuel.

    The problem with that BTR is that their welders have no idea what they're doing or simply nobody checks on their work thoroughly.

    Internet warriors jump to conclusions...

    Now, sorry if i might hurt your feelings, i tend to agree with someone who spent lifetime working on armor, than someone who spends days barking on everyone on forum for pointing out anything wrong about Russian military or industry, and insulting them calling them nazis and similar.

    Photos have been posted out of context... please complete a full report on the vehicles involved and who the customer was and further information as to why their wields are the way they are.

    For all we know they might have been taken in the Ukraine which means they might have been very early preproduction models done in a hurry and dumped as soon as possible to help out a neighbour.

    Of it might just be that the wields are fine but look rather bad externally and you are just being a prissy bitch about it.

    Also, seriously, stop insulting everyone who is disagreeing with you, you are being annoying sack of shit.

    So you are basically telling him to stop insulting people (you) and then you insult him.  Makes me feel better about calling you a prissy bitch... Smile

    Is weld quality a chronic issue or are these welds a few bad apples? Can we expect other russian AFVs to have similar weld quality? Is there a chance the factory has a labour shortage and accepts lower skilled workers. It seems that they put some effort in the weld, but just have a lack of skill.

    Obviously no body in Russia can wield metal... the skill has been lost.

    Mil and KG should move to Russia right now and make millions showing them how to do it right...


    Skilled welders are lacking everywhere, so i saw many bad welds on Serbian Lazar 2/3 for an example too, same like on Russian counterparts simply painted over... so its not only Russian thing.

    There you go Komissar Bojanchev... It is not a Russian thing to wield badly... it is a prissy bitch western thing to whine about it on internet forums...


    Aww, so we did not get better in welding for 70 years? If T-34 is going to be our metalurgical and welding etalon for 21st century we are not doing very well aint we.

    Actually Sevmash officials said they have severe shortage of skilled welders just a year ago. Good friend of mine worked in Sevmash as underwater welder till he moved to China, and he said they had constantly open welder employment program and even offered free 3 month entry course. What some guys did is get course done and move to Finland for 5 times higher sallary...

    Not sure how is it there on NZ, but here welder is 3, somewhere even 4 year highschool, there are even university courses for welding engineering, and hundreds each year finish it, yet there is still severe shortage of welders and you got bunch of monkeys working that job that barely know anything about material fatigue, preheating, crystal structure...

    I am not sure whats up with you people defending those welds, as there is nothing to be defended there, its badly done job, nothing further to discuss really. Stop turning this forum in "Russia *****" shithole you already lost people because of that, dissing any kind of criticism is starting to remind me of the Mess and Armored Warfare forums where you cant say a thing aganist anything Murican.

    Shit welds, needs improvement, next topic for the love of God.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:15 am

    Aww, so we did not get better in welding for 70 years? If T-34 is going to be our metalurgical and welding etalon for 21st century we are not doing very well aint we.

    Yeah... the thing is that the lesson from WWII was that the troops at the front line with thousands of T-34s didn't care that the wields were not pretty to their enemies... what they cared about was that there were thousands of T-34s to support them.

    Obviously the Germans who lost that war and were clearly beated by the weather and lend lease and hitlers poor choices can tell us how wonderful the wields were on the Panthers and Tigers... yet both those German vehicles had that same early period of being unreliable pieces of junk until they got production just right and they improved to good enough... though there were never enough of them to actually matter.

    Actually Sevmash officials said they have severe shortage of skilled welders just a year ago. Good friend of mine worked in Sevmash as underwater welder till he moved to China, and he said they had constantly open welder employment program and even offered free 3 month entry course. What some guys did is get course done and move to Finland for 5 times higher sallary...

    Such abuse of what is basically a schollarship is common everywhere... Sevmash should have made them sign a contract to promise to work for 10 years for the training.

    Amusing that what you are saying is that Russia can train wielders to a level where they are valued in Finland and China but are no good at wielding... are you contradicting yourself again... or are you suggesting the bad wields above are by self taught wielders...

    I am not sure whats up with you people defending those welds, as there is nothing to be defended there, its badly done job, nothing further to discuss really.

    I am not defending those wields... I am saying that you and KG remind me of Vann when a fucking plane crashes... all of a sudden the sky is falling, there is no quality control in Russia and they can't make planes to save themselves and it is all Putins fault.

    Sure... you are just stopping at no one in Russia can wield as good as you could when you started to learn, but that does not make it any easier to stomach.

    Stop turning this forum in "Russia *****" shithole you already lost people because of that, dissing any kind of criticism is starting to remind me of the Mess and Armored Warfare forums where you cant say a thing aganist anything Murican.

    Between the two of you (you and KG) you have posted some images of some bad wields on a Russian vehicle and some perfect machine wields from a US company and now you are blaming me for Russia perfect America crap rants...

    Perhaps if you said the person who did the wields was not so professional and left it at that instead of claiming no one in Arzamas could wield anymore it might have been over before it started.

    Look at KVS's reply to your first post of photos... wow... just like you said... he bit your head off and then said every Russian wielder is a saint and every American wielder is useless... oops... no he didn't... he just said along the lines of... they are probably good enough for that class of vehicle.

    Then you posted battle damaged vehicle pictures of the same vehicle type and you and KG had a circle jerk about how all wielders in Russia must be crap etc etc.


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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Aww, so we did not get better in welding for 70 years? If T-34 is going to be our metalurgical and welding etalon for 21st century we are not doing very well aint we.

    Yeah... the thing is that the lesson from WWII was that the troops at the front line with thousands of T-34s didn't care that the wields were not pretty to their enemies... what they cared about was that there were thousands of T-34s to support them.

    Obviously the Germans who lost that war and were clearly beated by the weather and lend lease and hitlers poor choices can tell us how wonderful the wields were on the Panthers and Tigers... yet both those German vehicles had that same early period of being unreliable pieces of junk until they got production just right and they improved to good enough... though there were never enough of them to actually matter.

    Actually Sevmash officials said they have severe shortage of skilled welders just a year ago. Good friend of mine worked in Sevmash as underwater welder till he moved to China, and he said they had constantly open welder employment program and even offered free 3 month entry course. What some guys did is get course done and move to Finland for 5 times higher sallary...

    Such abuse of what is basically a schollarship is common everywhere... Sevmash should have made them sign a contract to promise to work for 10 years for the training.

    Amusing that what you are saying is that Russia can train wielders to a level where they are valued in Finland and China but are no good at wielding... are you contradicting yourself again... or are you suggesting the bad wields above are by self taught wielders...

    I am not sure whats up with you people defending those welds, as there is nothing to be defended there, its badly done job, nothing further to discuss really.

    I am not defending those wields... I am saying that you and KG remind me of Vann when a fucking plane crashes... all of a sudden the sky is falling, there is no quality control in Russia and they can't make planes to save themselves and it is all Putins fault.

    Sure... you are just stopping at no one in Russia can wield as good as you could when you started to learn, but that does not make it any easier to stomach.

    Stop turning this forum in "Russia *****" shithole you already lost people because of that, dissing any kind of criticism is starting to remind me of the Mess and Armored Warfare forums where you cant say a thing aganist anything Murican.

    Between the two of you (you and KG) you have posted some images of some bad wields on a Russian vehicle and some perfect machine wields from a US company and now you are blaming me for Russia perfect America crap rants...

    Perhaps if you said the person who did the wields was not so professional and left it at that instead of claiming no one in Arzamas could wield anymore it might have been over before it started.

    Look at KVS's reply to your first post of photos... wow... just like you said... he bit your head off and then said every Russian wielder is a saint and every American wielder is useless... oops... no he didn't... he just said along the lines of... they are probably good enough for that class of vehicle.

    Then you posted battle damaged vehicle pictures of the same vehicle type and you and KG had a circle jerk about how all wielders in Russia must be crap etc etc.

    That was reconfigured BTR-80 hull, there was no mention of any battle damage to it. Yes, however T-34 welds were bad, and would shatter sometimes on weak spots during extremly cold winters during exploatation post war, we had few cases in Yugoslavia, it was wartime production with welders that had probably no training whatsoever and were learning on the spot. But that is not an excuse for peacetime in 21st century. Thompson submachine gun was of far lower quality during wartime production too, worse material actually, and same went for almost every weapon produced during WW2, even ammunition.

    First of all its just 3 month course, for people with highschool or even just elementary education, after that they become... assistants, i am not sure what is right term in english but there is specific term. What they were doing, is finish 3 month course, stay 2-3 months more for some bucks, and then move to Finland to shipyards there where they train welders further for specific roles, as they have welder shortage too. So they take people with some basic knowledge and/or experience and continue further with them. To become really good welder, alot more than 3 month course is required.

    Those are not machined welds, hand made welds or jackstand welds by engineer Scott Raabe, guy is however very, very good as far as welding goes. You can find tundreds of his welds online.

    Yes, everyone starts somewhere, my first welds were probably as bad as those, however i did not weld an ACP in defence industry, i welded balcony fence and construction to lay grapes...

    That, cant be good for anything, that kind of welding could pass tho in what they call reconstructive welding on tank hull for an example to soak the hole, where the point is to melt steel and fill the hole, but as actual constructor welds no.

    Its obvious they used all wrong welding settings for a start as i wrote above, everything was set too high from and guy probably was not very experienced either which resulted in all that "splash". I am not welding expert and i do not claim to be i weld as hobby, but my father is an exceptional welder. I just said welds are bad, and it was post from looong ago, now suddenly bunch of people necroed it and started fighting. If i saw such welds on Bradely i would call them shit to, not sure where are people getting all that "NAzO" stuff anyways, bad weld is bad welds, made in Germany, China, Russia or Serbia, its bad weld everywhere.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:Between the two of you (you and KG) you have posted some images of some bad wields on a Russian vehicle and some perfect machine wields from a US company and now you are blaming me for Russia perfect America crap rants...

    I am an Engineering and Manufacturing professional and this childish scope is so far beneath me. The reason you saw "US company" welds is because we were having a nice chat with Militarov and I do not speak Russian. I can't read any as well, thus I can't find such images as comfortably as I did with a familiar technique from Boeing, that I wanted to share. And not to troll.

    Not everything is Black vs White you know. Have some respect and faith to us mate.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:35 am

    That was reconfigured BTR-80 hull, there was no mention of any battle damage to it.

    post 162 and 163 in this thread. Random picture of burned out vehicle and then photo of a vehicle burning.

    But that is not an excuse for peacetime in 21st century.

    You don't know anything about the photos... there could be a dozen reasons, but you jump to conclusions anyway.


    Those are not machined welds, hand made welds or jackstand welds by engineer Scott Raabe, guy is however very, very good as far as welding goes. You can find tundreds of his welds online.

    I was referring to KGs photo of the Boeing companies machine wielder.

    Have some respect and faith to us mate.

    Sorry, but the two of you come across more as trolls every day.

    I don't care... I am sure those that survived WWII on the Soviet side were happy they didn't spend hours making their wields look pretty, and instead made more tanks. Any that cracked in the field due to the cold or to damage could be fixed in the field, or replaced by the dozens more they made because they weren't pissing around making their tanks look pretty for parades.


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    Militarov
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    That was reconfigured BTR-80 hull, there was no mention of any battle damage to it.

    post 162 and 163 in this thread. Random picture of burned out vehicle and then photo of a vehicle burning.

    But that is not an excuse for peacetime in 21st century.

    You don't know anything about the photos... there could be a dozen reasons, but you jump to conclusions anyway.


    Those are not machined welds, hand made welds or jackstand welds by engineer Scott Raabe, guy is however very, very good as far as welding goes. You can find tundreds of his welds online.

    I was referring to KGs photo of the Boeing companies machine wielder.

    Have some respect and faith to us mate.

    Sorry, but the two of you come across more as trolls every day.

    I don't care... I am sure those that survived WWII on the Soviet side were happy they didn't spend hours making their wields look pretty, and instead made more tanks. Any that cracked in the field due to the cold or to damage could be fixed in the field, or replaced by the dozens more they made because they weren't pissing around making their tanks look pretty for parades.

    You can see my comment on the photo of burning BTR, it was taken on some military exercise, no further info on why or how it was set ablaze, you can see Kotemore gave his opinion i had none.

    Yes we are trolls, thats is why i have 5000 posts on Russian defence forum, because i am troll... from Serbia... trolling Russians...serving in Serbian military, married to a Russian... right.... if that makes sense go for it.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:Sorry, but the two of you come across more as trolls every day.

    You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop posting walls of useless text.

    George1 wrote:i cant understand all this conflict in discussion. And all started from me by posting a BTR-80 variant for National Guard

    Bad-to-horrible BTR-80 welds seems to make Garry and others uncomfortable.
    Pointing out the obvious seems to get a talibanesque treatment in this forum from the strοnk crowd.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Benya on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:26 pm

    Guys, I really don't want to join into your argument, but...

    ... I cannot understand that how can you start a 2 pages long argument about...

    Weldings.

    I cannot comprehend that some botched up weldings can start a "flame war". I'm perfectly aware of the fact that bad weldings can cause structural problems and whatnot, plus they can somewhat hinder the protection quality of the armor, but it's none of our business as we cannot judge them by just looking at it, and our opinion will hardly affect the way that the welders of ArzamasMashZavod will weld the armor plates of BTRs.

    I have to admit that I'm not an expert welder, but indeed, those are some really bad looking welds, but wheter they are bad or not, only physical tests can tell.

    So, "bad looking" shouldn't always mean "bad quality".

    By that logic, I mean if that this "badly welded BTR" successfully passes through factory and then field tests then it can be accepted into service. If that bad look is really a serious issue, then all they have to do is to grab an angle-grinder and some liters of paint, and the thing is done.

    If it fails, then it will be sent back for some rework. The earlier they spot the problem, the earlier they can fix it. It is still better if the BTR fails in peacetime (from field tests to military exercises/drills), than in wartime, when it can cost lives of Russian soldiers.

    Plus, if one BTR has bad looking weldings, that doesn't mean that the entire fleet of BTR-80s/82s of the Russian Army could fall into pieces at any moment.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  kvs on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:31 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Sorry, but the two of you come across more as trolls every day.

    You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop posting walls of useless text.

    Claims the trolling prat.


    George1 wrote:i cant understand all this conflict in discussion. And all started from me by posting a BTR-80 variant for National Guard

    Bad-to-horrible BTR-80 welds seems to make Garry and others uncomfortable.
    Pointing out the obvious seems to get a talibanesque treatment in this forum from the strοnk crowd.

    Yo, retard, your eyeballs can't determine the quality of these welds from a few photos. People have been trying
    to point out this obvious physical limitation to you for a while, but being the retard that you are, you actually
    believe that you can see through the welds from a photo.

    Both you and the Cruise Princess have only your subjective aesthetic "baby's bottom of smoothness" criterion that
    no professional welder on the planet subscribes to as your "proof" of the inadequacy of these welds. It is now rather
    clear that it is you and the Cruise Princess that are mentally inadequate.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  kvs on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:35 pm

    Benya wrote:Guys, I really don't want to join into your argument, but...

    ... I cannot understand that how can you start a 2 pages long argument about...

    Weldings.

    I cannot comprehend that some botched up weldings can start a "flame war". I'm perfectly aware of the fact that bad weldings can cause structural problems and whatnot, plus they can somewhat hinder the protection quality of the armor, but it's none of our business as we cannot judge them by just looking at it, and our opinion will hardly affect the way that the welders of ArzamasMashZavod will weld the armor plates of BTRs.

    I have to admit that I'm not an expert welder, but indeed, those are some really bad looking welds, but wheter they are bad or not, only physical tests can tell.

    So, "bad looking" shouldn't always mean "bad quality".

    By that logic, I mean if that this "badly welded BTR" successfully passes through factory and then field tests then it can be accepted into service. If that bad look is really a serious issue, then all they have to do is to grab an angle-grinder and some liters of paint, and the thing is done.

    If it fails, then it will be sent back for some rework. The earlier they spot the problem, the earlier they can fix it. It is still better if the BTR fails in peacetime (from field tests to military exercises/drills), than in wartime, when it can cost lives of Russian soldiers.

    Plus, if one BTR has bad looking weldings, that doesn't mean that the entire fleet of BTR-80s/82s of the Russian Army could fall into pieces at any moment.

    The only reason there is a "flame war" is because a couple of trolls insist that readers of this board believe without question their
    claim that they can evaluate the quality of these welds based on inspection of a few internet posted photos.   That is simply certifiable.
    It is physically impossible to state based on the posted photos that these welds are bad.  There is no obvious sign of cracking, excessive
    perforation and plate deformation.   The only thing these two trolls have is their subjective criterion for smoothness of the weld.    I posted
    an example of a perfect weld which clearly fails this BS criterion.   Thus both these trolls fail and should be banned from further posting in
    this thread.
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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:43 am

    Benya wrote:Guys, I really don't want to join into your argument, but...

    ... I cannot understand that how can you start a 2 pages long argument about...

    Weldings.

    I cannot comprehend that some botched up weldings can start a "flame war". I'm perfectly aware of the fact that bad weldings can cause structural problems and whatnot, plus they can somewhat hinder the protection quality of the armor, but it's none of our business as we cannot judge them by just looking at it, and our opinion will hardly affect the way that the welders of ArzamasMashZavod will weld the armor plates of BTRs.

    I have to admit that I'm not an expert welder, but indeed, those are some really bad looking welds, but wheter they are bad or not, only physical tests can tell.

    So, "bad looking" shouldn't always mean "bad quality".

    By that logic, I mean if that this "badly welded BTR" successfully passes through factory and then field tests then it can be accepted into service. If that bad look is really a serious issue, then all they have to do is to grab an angle-grinder and some liters of paint, and the thing is done.

    If it fails, then it will be sent back for some rework. The earlier they spot the problem, the earlier they can fix it. It is still better if the BTR fails in peacetime (from field tests to military exercises/drills), than in wartime, when it can cost lives of Russian soldiers.

    Plus, if one BTR has bad looking weldings, that doesn't mean that the entire fleet of BTR-80s/82s of the Russian Army could fall into pieces at any moment.

    Welds are however first inspected visually in factory, Kilo can probably tell you more about this, i am not employed in industry atm. Then depending on where or what the welds are they get inspected by x-rays or various other equipment for cracks and quite long list of other defects. Thing is some of those welds are not even complete, like there is missing few mm between plates, and that cant pass anything really.

    And yes, as you said welds need to be grinded down most of the time (even almost perfect welds) so you can apply base paint to prevent rusting, if weld stays as it is most of the time it will allow gathering of moisture in small holes molten metal makes upon sudden change of temperature and that is were corrosion will start.

    That naturally as you said does not mean all of them are like that (actually its very unlikely), but apparently some are and that should change.

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    Re: Russian APC/AFV armor

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