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    Russian made Scopes and Optics

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    GarryB

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    Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 06/09/10, 12:44 pm

    Russia to start production of French’s licensed thermal imaging cameras for T-90 tanks
    Posted by ThunderBolt on May 21st, 2010

    MOSCOW,, Russia will launch in July the licensed production of thermal imagers developed by a French firm as part of efforts to gain access to advanced foreign technologies, a Russian daily said on Friday.

    A plant in the city of Vologda in central Russia will assemble the Thales-developed Catherine FC thermal imaging cameras for T-90 tanks in service with the Russian army.

    “It is not a simple knock down assembly. We use Russian-made components to assemble the control system. After 2012 we will start using Russian optics and mechanics on these devices,” the Gazeta newspaper quoted the plant’s general director Alexander Korshunov as saying.

    Localized production will allow Russia to reduce production and maintenance costs by at least 5-10% and manufacture thermal imagers for civilian purposes in the future.

    Thermal imagers could be used for monitoring the efficiency of thermal insulation and detection of heat leaks, among other applications.

    Russia might only be able to export thermal imagers produced at its plant with the permission of the French authorities. The list of potential customers will exclude so-called rogue states such as Iran. (RIA Novosti)
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    Kysusha

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  Kysusha on 05/10/10, 02:49 am

    My concern is the increasing reliance of Russia on “foreign” technology! This has to be at the detriment of domestic industry and research.

    There is a steadily growing reliance on French armament factories – including naval gear. I suspect that this is linked to the expansion of Russian interests in the French Energy sector – but for whatever reason – it has to be to the longer term detriment of Russian defence contractors.

    I witnessed the almost demise of MOLOT last year and I see other factories are seriously struggling to remain viable, especially against a resurgent Chinese Armament industry who’s workers are paid a bowl of rice a day.

    Russia had the capability, it must resurrect that capability and not only protect it but advance it. Western Israeli backed industries are infiltrating the market with remarkable success.

    Вставай, Россия


    Last edited by Kysusha on 05/10/10, 08:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 05/10/10, 07:59 am

    Thales are showing this Russian company how to make Catherine Thermal imagers.

    It is costing money, but the result is a huge step up for Russia.

    Remember a lot of Soviet optical devices were not made in Russia so now Russia will be making a thermal imager of a very high standard and they can take the knowledge they gain and the money they earn from production for their own R&D.

    After going 20 years without sales of products and without proper funding of course they are at an enormous disadvantage to the world standard in any technology level.

    This isn't the first time they solved technology gaps with licences to produce foreign items... the Russian Maxim M1910 machine gun is a Maxim machine gun. Before that they had bought the Gatling gun design too. The Nagant Revolver was designed by Nagant... a Belgian. The jet engines they used in the immediate post WWII period were British... the Nene and the Derwent. The point is that in general they took those designs into use and absorbed the lessons and started creating on their own.
    They didn't get hooked on British engine technology, though they didn't ignore it either. There was no Russian replacement for the Nagant revolver till the 1930s though Broomhandle Mauser pistols were very popular.
    The replacement pistol was based on the Browning swinging link design but had a number of things that made it unique. First and foremost it had no manual safety which was justified by the fact that the Nagant didn't have a safety either. The hammer mechanism was a single block component that could be removed as one unit and the lug on the end of the barrel that was part of the swinging link operating mechanism was a complete ring around the barrel which could be machined on the lathe and needed no further finishing which made it simpler and cheaper to make than the original.
    Most importantly there were other pistols competing with the TT-30 and later improved TT-33 but the pistol based on Brownings design won and that is the pistol that went into production.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Russian Optics

    Post  IronsightSniper on 18/10/10, 12:25 pm

    I realized today I don't know too much in this regards. I know that the T-90 uses THALES optics, and that the OLS-30 is a nice IRST but that's about it. I'd like to know the specs on most of this stuff, including the magnifying powers of designated marksmen optics. I read that the POS telescopic sight for the SVD had a magnifying power of 4x, which is awefully low. If I was wrong on that, just more proof for this thread. I want dat info.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  Vladimir79 on 18/10/10, 01:41 pm

    It is an embarrassing topic for Russia. UOMZ can't make optics for shit, so they buy them from France. Thales pretty much dominates the industry here and anything that isn't Thales, will soon be.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 18/10/10, 01:55 pm

    Traditionally the optics for Soviet sights came from belarus and other soviet states.

    Cooperation with western companies should improve standard of optics, but in my experience Russian sights are as good as any american brand sight I have owned. Note American brand optics use Japanese lenses, while most european optics use German optics.
    As a rule of thumb if the lenses are made in the west anywhere other than Japan or West Germany they they are probably crap.
    Lots of Soviet stuff was good but simple...

    The Scope for the SVD had a magnification power of 4 because the rifle is normally used only to about 600m or so and were also intended to be used in low light so high magnification was seen as counter productive.
    Currently there is a 3-9 power variable scope called Giperon or something. Don't know whether it is being issued or just for export.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  IronsightSniper on 19/10/10, 10:53 am

    So what would the specs be for the day/night scopes of Russia's purpose built sniper rifle(can't remember the name, but Vladimir Putin defended journalists with one).
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 19/10/10, 03:37 pm

    The Russians have a range of sniper rifles.

    The SVD tends to have the standard PSO-1 or the 1PN59 Giperon (3-10 power) but it can also use the 1PN93-4 which is a third gen II nightscope.

    There is also the SV-99 in .22lr sniper rifle for built up urban areas, the SV-98 in 7.62 x 54R bolt action for up to 1,000m, various 9 x 39mm suppressed rifles like the VSS and the VSK 94 and of course for real accuracy and long range there is the Lobaev SVL which would be made to order rather than mass produced and issued in large numbers like the SVD, SVDS, VSS, SV-98 etc etc.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  IronsightSniper on 19/10/10, 05:37 pm

    Yeah, I said Purpose built for a reason, the SVD is a designated marksmen weapon, but now that you've mentioned it, I'm sure it's the Sv-98. Specs on it's sights?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 20/10/10, 06:12 am

    I have read that its sight is proving rather unpopular, and the rifle is far too expensive, though it is certainly accurate enough.


    http://izhevsk.club.guns.ru/eng/sv-98.html

    This is an old website that has been moved and the pictures don't seem to work properly because of this but it has information like:

    SV-98 is equipped with a new stronger PKS-07 optic scope, with magnification factor of x7.

    Here is a web page with info:

    http://www.gunscollecting.com/english/scopes/pks-07-collimating-sight/

    It is used on several Russian rifles for day use.
    For night use most of those same rifles use the PKN-03

    http://www.minprom.gov.by/images/products/309208.jpg

    These are both scopes from Belarus:

    http://diaproektor-eng.clan.su/



    Note the club guns webpage also mentions the SV-98 is available in 7.62 x 54 Russian, 7.62 x 51mm NATO, and they were planning on a 338 Lapua magnum model too.

    If you are interested in long range shooting I believe they have a scope for their 50 cal (that is Soviet 50 cal or 12.7 x 108mm, not US 50 cal or 12.7 x 99mm) that is x12 power magnification.
    It is called the POS 12 x 50 and the night equivelent is the PKN-05.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 20/10/10, 07:13 am

    If you are interested in Russian optics companies then try looking at these pages:

    http://www.tochpribor.com/product.php?idProduct=109

    (note includes built in laser range finder and ballistic computer that generates an aimpoint (the plus symbol) in the sight based on ammo type and range to the target entered by laser rangefinder).

    http://www.npzoptics.ru/catalog/dnevnye_pricely/

    http://www.katod-nightvision.com/night-vision-devices.php?ID=110

    http://www.nightvision.ru/eng/products/

    http://www.ckb-photon.ru/landforces/nightvision.htm

    http://www.vomz.ru/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=8&lang=en

    http://www.cyclone-jsc.ru/goshawk.html

    Now please note I have not bought any of these devices and have no idea of their performance (the sights or the companies).
    They are just sites I have found over time with things that interest me.

    From my reading of various forums I have the impression that the Dedal scopes are pretty good quality, though they are not cheap.

    (note http://www.nightvision.ru/eng/products/ is Dedal.)
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  IronsightSniper on 21/10/10, 02:49 pm

    Vlad(or anyone that reads Russian), could you please translate the first link on Garry's second post? Sight system looks similar in asthetics and functions to the OICW's sights.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  Russian Patriot on 21/10/10, 11:15 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:Vlad(or anyone that reads Russian), could you please translate the first link on Garry's second post? Sight system looks similar in asthetics and functions to the OICW's sights.
    It means precise machine, so its the optics precision.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 22/10/10, 04:50 am

    If you want the whole page translated here is Babels attempt:

    http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tochpribor.com%2Fproduct.php%3FidProduct%3D109&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

    Note it doesn't translate the text in the pictures and what it says still needs a little translation.

    For example where it says
    Sight has one or several those established ballastician, switched by the user (types of those installed ballastician they are determined with the order), and also it makes it possible to program ballistics according to the results of shooting to 3 different distances.

    This means that you can shoot to three different distances (ie perhaps 50m, 150m and 300m) and you can program where your rounds hit and it can use that to determine the trajectory of the round so you can use it with any calibre rifle. It will likely come preprogrammed with Russian calibres and possibly also NATO calibres too.

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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  IronsightSniper on 24/11/10, 08:21 pm

    So it's basically the sight from the XM29 OICW and the failure that it brought along. Interesting. Even more so if Russia adapts that sight unlike how we canceled it.

    In any case, I'm starting to notice that most Russian night optics are of the Gen II class, would this be true? Also, how long would you estimate it be the time from now till they fully integrate Gen III or Gen IV class Night vision into their forces?
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  Vladimir79 on 25/11/10, 02:01 am

    Whether NVD or IR, they do not go past 2nd generation. NVD never really hit the troops in any numbers to begin with. Some squad leaders had binoculars, but the nv scopes were too blurry to make out targets at range. I would have been happy with an NV monocle so I didn't trip in the forest but couldn't get that. Russian Army today has little capability to fight at night unless they launch illumination flares.

    As far as the future of light intensification, it is pretty much dead except for navigation monocles. The French systems have thermal devices for every soldier whether it be scope or binoculars. Driver scopes are even thermal much less FC and surveillance. As we test FELIN, we will want the same capabilities as we cannot produce domestic analogs of 3rd gen IR.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 25/11/10, 09:21 am

    The future of Image intensification will probably be with QWIP technology.

    Very simply if you think of it as a CCD camera chip with a big square array of light sensitive elements.
    The advantage is that these elements can be sensitive to a wider range of the light spectrum than most CCD cameras.

    If you have a digital camera then you actually have a basic first gen night vision device. Turn your camera on (digital video, or digital still camera) and look through the viewfinder at your TV remote control and push a button on the remote with the end you point at the TV pointed at the camera lens. You can see the flashing IR light in the remote because the light sensitive elements in the CCD chip are sensitive to normal light and IR light.

    A QWIP chip could be made that is sensitive to normal light and short, medium, and long IR wave light, and also to Ultraviolet light too. On a clear night with no moon there is actually a lot of UV light coming from the sky that III gen image intensification sights take advantage of.
    With a control chip the results from a QWIP chip can be managed so the sight can be used during the day using normal light without blooming like a IIIrd gen system does in urban areas. (IV gen solves this problem and can be used in urban areas to see in dark spaces even when there are lights around.)

    There is also digital night vision that is very similar but uses a CCD type chip to pick up normal light and a computer chip to boost the signal in low light levels. Not as good as III gen Image intensification but much cheaper and longer lasting etc.

    Regarding thermal sights the better quality models are impressive but target recognition has been a problem in the past.
    A good digital TV backup system that mixes the signals to give a more detailed image is what most countries are going for now.

    For example the sensors on the T-95 were supposed to combine a wide range of electro optical and other sensors including long, medium, and short wave IR (Long wave IR being good for detecting cold objects like an aircraft at 10,000m (30,000ft) where the air temperature is about -60 degrees C) as well as IRST and CM and MMW radar sensors. CM wave radar is good for tracking air targets, while MMW is good for ground targets and close in aerial targets because it is tough to jam. Lidar is also mentioned, which is a laser radar that uses a laser light instead of a radio beam to scan. It has uses against enemy optics including sniper scopes and the optics of incoming missiles. Such a system makes a dazzler possible and even a dedicated optics jamming system.
    The information I have is that these sensors (which other tanks do have) were actually combined to generate a more useful image for the crew.
    For instance a simple digital day image would not reveal a well camouflaged tank, but adding short wave IR image to the DTV image would reveal the heat of the tank through the camouflage.

    Obviously such systems can be defeated with IR camouflage skirts like Nadkidka etc... but the potential is interesting.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 25/11/10, 09:23 am

    The fact that they are going to the expense of putting Thermal imagers on their tanks and MIFVs suggests they want to start working on a full night fighting capability.

    They have already trialed a thermal scope so one would assume they are aiming for more night vision equipment being introduced.

    Most of their ATGMs have optional thermal sights available. How many actually have them deployed is another matter.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 04/01/11, 01:32 pm

    Here is a page showing things currently being worked on:

    http://npzoptics.com/catalog/in_progress/

    These include quite a few items that clearly use picatinny rails rather than the traditional side rail... suggesting they are for the new AK-200. I would assume most other current in service weapons will also be modified to have such rails too.

    If you look at this page:

    http://npzoptics.com/catalog/earlier_issued_production/

    You can see the first generation II NSPUM-2 sight (1PN58) which comes with ballistic cams so if you know the range to the target you can dial it up on the scope and don't need any holdover.
    You can also see the second generation II NSPUM-3 sight (1PN51) which is a second gen II scope often seen on Soviet photos of night scopes. In fact 99% of photos of Soviet rifle night scopes were one of these two scope types.

    Current production night scopes are here:

    http://npzoptics.com/catalog/night_sights_1/

    And of course those in development are at the page I linked to first.

    The technology is certainly available to the Russian military but such equipment is expensive and relatively fragile so it was clearly not issued widely.

    I suspect that current attempts at a personal rifle mounted thermal sight for the VDV suggests a change in that policy and probably an acceptance that the Russian military will need to operate 24 hours a day so I would assume 3rd gen II for the grunts and thermals for the special formations like VDV and naval infantry and special forces etc.

    Certainly the picatinny rails all over the AK-200 suggests it will likely have an optic as a standard sighting method... perhaps something equivalent to the British SUSAT that is simple and basic that can have a night vision scope mounted in front of it so you can keep your existing zero and reticle pattern and shoot at night as well as day.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 05/01/11, 07:30 am

    I should add that in the "in progress" section in the first link above there is the LDM-2VK small sized laser range finder with the following capabilities:

    Laser rangefinder LDM-2VK measures distance as well as determines ambient temperature and atmosphere pressure, elevation of the target and its coordinates in the satellite systems GLONASS and GPS that allows the rangefinder to perform the following functions:
    -Calculation of corrections during the shooting from different types of hunting weapon. For calculation of corrections the following indices are considered: distance to the target, elevation of the target, ambient temperature and atmosphere pressure, direction and speed of wind, ballistic factor, initial velocity and weight of bullet, caliber, pitch and direction of the rifling in the bore, sight elevation over the barrel.
    - Target coordinates determination.
    - Determination of the target speed.
    - Setting of the rangefinder according to the type of weapon, bullet, satellite system, and also regulating of the display brightness and auto switching off function.

    It has x6 magnification and can range targets to 4km. It uses 4 AA batteries and weighs less than 1kg (900 grams).

    The LDM-3 is a range finder only and it says it can range to 20km but I suspect it should be 2km. It looks smaller and more compact and also weighs .9kg.

    Also on that page is the PN-21K which is a small monocular that is either 2nd or 3rd generation Image intensification. It can mount on a head set or helmet and two can be linked together to make night vision goggles. It can also be attached to a picatinny rail and used in front of a normal day scope so that it can turn your day scope into a night vision scope without having to rezero the scope or adjust it in any way.

    The PN21K-3 can do the same thing, comes in 2nd and 3rd gen II and can have a new front lense clipped on to turn it from a x1 mag monocular to a x3 scope. It can also be clipped together with another monocular or attached to a rifle.

    Other items on that page are holographic sights and the models with PT in their designation are thermal sights.

    The PT-1 for example can detect targets out to 2.7km and can be used to ID targets at 1km. With a focal length of 100mm and a weight of 1.5kgs.

    The PT-2 is hand held or helmet mounted and is for observation.

    The ZLN-2K is a laser target aim pointer and can be mounted on a picatinny rail. It has two seperate laser pointers... one in visible red light for day and dawn and dusk operation and one in infra red for use with night vision goggles.

    There is no information about the PTO but based on the fact that it has a human ID range of 400m day or night I would expect this is a digital night vision sight using a CCD chip that is sensitive in visible light as well as IR and UV frequencies that works much like a low light level television system (LLLTV).

    By the look of the lense cover with the window in it it probably works like an II scope so the cover is fitted during bright daylight conditions when there is plenty of light and taken off to use the entire objective lens to capture as much light as possible at night or in poor light conditions.

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    night vision in the russian army?

    Post  ak74m on 06/09/11, 06:12 pm

    at the moment do proffessional forces in the russian army ( such as the vdv and marines) have access to night vision devices? i dont neccessarily mean gogles, but any devices than increase visibility in the dark? and also when will the whole army get them ???
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 07/09/11, 10:33 am

    The situation with night vision in the Soviet Union and now Russia is a little strange.

    Soviet armour was actually well equipped with night vision equipment in the 60s and 70s, but the Soviets looked at low light level TV technology instead of thermal imaging which they saw as too expensive.
    Individual examples of Soviet night vision equipment has been captured in various wars, but it is not widely used.

    I should also mention of course that even today in armies like the British Army night vision goggles and rifle sights are not issued widely.

    Most British missions in Afghanistan are foot patrols that are strictly carried out during the day.

    Night vision is expensive and to actually fight effectively at night takes a lot of training and coordination because it is so easy to get confused and disoriented at night.

    Night vision equipment is fairly rare in Russian forces today, though with the new drive for high technology new gear is being introduced as standard equipment for soldiers, though it is rather likely elite forces will get this kit first and for some time the average soldier will not be equipped with night vision equipment.

    Most Russian military vehicles have some form of night vision equipment, though much of it is only second generation stuff, new tanks and IFVs will have state of the art French Catherine thermals that allow good visibility out to 5-8km at night in the right conditions.

    If you have a look at threads here on new Soldiers gear the Russian equivalent of Future Warrior includes a night vision monocular sight that can be hand held as a night vision device or attached to a rifle as a night scope, or attached to another similar device and attached to the helmet as NVG.
    They are also working on a thermal rifle sight to be issued to soldiers.

    Might be 20 years before it is common issue however.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  Cyberspec on 11/09/11, 06:04 am

    Various nights sights on link below

    http://www.arms-expo.ru/049048050048.html

    And something new that looks promising....a new Russian night vision system by "Geofizika-NV" that works in the UV spectrum.

    (shortened translation)
    Russian night vision systems - the best in the world. And only bureaucratic inertia hinders their widespread introduction into military and civil practice.

    Moscow "Geophysics NV" has presented the new technology. Similar technology around the world only present in the U.S. and even then not always.

    In one of the countries in the Middle East, completed testing of various night vision systems for helicopters where the Russian system proved better than American one. Some people speak of nanotechnologies in the future tense. In "Geophysics NV" created a platform for their systems based on nanotechnology. It's possible already to produce so-called strapdown surveillance system. Border guards are beginning to use systems that allow to see a see a man in the grass at a distance of nearly 4 km at night. And not only see but also to record the exact coordinates of the observed object.

    A helicopter, using the latest "night" spectacles, can see in the dead of night within a radius of several kilometers. For the first time in the world created electron-optical converters operating in the ultraviolet range. This is a revolution in night vision

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/6879/?PHPSESSID=7139fc2cd199df14721fc86a1319a605

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  GarryB on 11/09/11, 07:04 am

    Most 3rd gen image intensification sights can detect UV light as on a clear night there is a lot of UV light coming from the sky that can be used to make the view clearer.

    Having said that the Russians were working on some interesting things in II technology.

    For instance the light reflected from man made materials is not the same as natural light and they were working on an II system that highlighted artificial colours like those used on camouflage systems so that for instance a man wearing camouflage in front of natural material of the same colour would actually stand out clearly with this new technology...

    As mentioned above they have plenty of night vision gear and some of it is very good, but it is not widely used even today... with the future soldier type program that should change at some point however.

    With their vehicles all getting modern thermal sights they will start looking at night training no doubt and then purchases of night vision gear will no longer be an expensive option.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian made Scopes and Optics

    Post  Cyberspec on 11/09/11, 12:00 pm

    I think dedicated UV night vision sights are relatively new

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