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    Russian Air-to-Air missiles

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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:29 am

    Pretty big news...

    State machine-building design Bureau "Vympel im. I. I. Toropova" signed the state contract for manufacture and supply of "Izd 180".

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6601330

    Izd. 180 = K-77M / R-77M

    The R-77M-PD version was reportedly aimed to have max range of 200km
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:18 am

    I would expect work on the ramjet powered model was probably stopped and changed for work on a scramjet powered model... would be capable of much higher speeds and much greater ranges.

    I remember they mentioned they had stopped work on the ramjet model to complete the improved rocket longer ranged missile and I suspect this is that.

    I suspect they changed from working on a ramjet model, which would have similar speed to a rocket powered missile but rather better range and powered all the way flight, to a scramjet model which potentially could be twice as fast with much greater range due to it also being powered throughout its flight.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:55 am

    The PD variant is probably still in development...the most interesting part about the R-77M is that it's suppose to have an AESA radar seeker. I remember reading about it a while back that it would be difficult to shake off once a lock is achieved....the standard evasive maneuvers apparently wont work
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:43 pm

    Yes, but the PD variant has an air breathing ramjet motor... I suspect they will adapt their requirements and instead of making a ramjet model, a scramjet model would achieve rather better performance for a similar development effort as a ramjet.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:20 pm

    More pics of r-74M here 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1148272492697571328

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 pm

    Isos wrote:More pics of r-74M here 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1148272492697571328

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    Post  George1 on Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:20 pm

    For the first time in public, the new rocket was presented at the ARMY-2018 forum.



    More photos

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3700881.html
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:03 am

    More info on the Izd. 180 / K-77M...sounds pretty formidable Cool

    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 10 1378015

    In the framework of military-technical forum "Army-2019" design Bureau "Vympel" demonstrated its new development – a missile "air-air" which exceeds in its parameters the existing missiles of this class.

    "Product 180" is a new missile received index K-77M, which will be initially installed on su-57, and in the future may go for export abroad.

    And though the rocket received index K-77M, but it has nothing to do with the missile K-77. The rocket is produced with a new aerodynamic scheme with X-shaped wings that reduces drag and as a consequence increased range.

    Rocket in addition to the main wing (2 in diagram below) also added a stationary aerodynamic surface (4) before "driving" (3), which allowed to solve the main problem of all long-range missiles "air-air", namely the ability to maneuver at subsonic speeds. For example, the famous American missile AIM-120 and its recent modernization the AIM-120D have not been able to maneuver at speeds of less than 1200 km/h (while trying to maneuver increased angle of attack, and the rocket began to disintegrate.)

    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 10 Scale_2400%20%2836%29


    Also the missile is equipped with a double-pulse solid-propellant engine, which allowes  high-altitude maneuvering and enables a range of up to 192 kilometers.

    In addition, the missile is equipped with inertial navigation system and active radar homing head.

    All these changes make the new missile K-77M a truly unique and a real formidable weapon.

    Experts pay attention that apparently the Russian defense Ministry are very serious about the project su-57 and to develop this fighter is really unique weapons that have no analogues in the world. We already know that the su-57 would be installed a shorter version of hypersonic missile "Kinzhal" gliding cluster bomb "Drel", and now the missile K-77M. All of these types of weapons created recently and is unique in its characteristics.

    https://vladimir-krm.livejournal.com/5950713.html
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:39 pm

    I highly doubt it will have the same size as r-77 but with double range. More likely it will be something like the last on your picture.

    Too bad they didn't go for a scramjet version to create a new era for missiles.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:10 pm

    Isos wrote:I highly doubt it will have the same size as r-77 but with double range. More likely it will be something like the last on your picture.

    Too bad they didn't go for a scramjet version to create a new era for missiles.

    Zircon's development cycle isn't complete yet. After it's finished you'll see a 'modernization.'
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:22 am

    They haven't said anything about scramjet versions of AAMs, but what they have said is that they want long range missiles, and that the two options they had were an improved rocket motor mode, and a ramjet powered model.

    They have said they cancelled the ramjet project and focussed on the improved rocket motor version because it was a quicker and easier solution to the problem of getting a longer range medium AAM into production and service.

    But the enormous potential of scramjets suggests to me they likely cancelled the ramjet design but change to a scramjet design with much higher speed and also therefore range, but as mentioned it will take longer than the improved rocket propelled model or the now cancelled ramjet model to develop and put into service... being powered it could turn 180 degrees without becoming a dud...
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:49 pm

    Range is not important if your missile can't manoeuvre at max range. That was proven when pakistani and US fighters used them at max range against indian MKI and iraqi mig-25.

    Ramjet/scramjet makes it more dangerous at long range. And russia has a long experience of making them. It is weired they never finished the r-77 ramjet version.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:52 am

    These missiles will be moving at mach 5... this is not something you can dodge like they do in the movies and even if you could at the last seconds of interception the proximity fuse means it can miss the target by several metres and still achieve a kill.

    Ramjet/scramjet makes it more dangerous at long range.

    Is there any combat experience/data that actually shows that to be the case?

    On paper, I agree that with a working engine the missile will be able to manouver much better than a rocket powered missile whose fuel burnt out and is not coasting... but having an engine running does not allow a higher g turn, it just means when you pull a high g turn you lose less speed because you are still being pushed forward by the engine... so a high g turn at the last second of the intercept means both would likely miss... the question is, will that powered missile have the energy to do a full 180 degree turn and come around again and have another go at the target... but at the air speed these missiles are moving at a 180 degree turn might take an enormous volume of airspace... the SR-71 spy plane when flying at mach 3.2 couldn't turn 180 degrees and stay inside the airspace of the state of California... by the time it had turned around and headed back will the target still be there... and if it has dodged the missile once... is it not possible that it might dodge it again?

    And russia has a long experience of making them. It is weired they never finished the r-77 ramjet version.

    Not weird at all... perfectly logical.

    If they are making catapults for aircraft carriers right now they will make EMALS cats because any catapult system will be expensive and time consuming to develop so you might as well spend that money developing the new system rather than an old one.

    With missiles it is the same... across the board the Russians have been consistent in their weapons development programme... first upgrade existing tech as far as you can, and then introduce new generation tech... potentially upgrading the old with basic new tech for the new, but the new tech is a generational improvement compared with the upgraded old stuff which is an improvement but not a generational one.

    Examples are the T-90 and the Armata T-14... the upgrades to the T-90 improve the fleet performance fast and can be applied to older models like T-72 and T-80 upgrades, while the generational improvements go to the Armata, Kurganets, Boomerang, and Typhoon vehicle families for the future.

    In aircraft there are the MiG-35 and Su-35 upgrades, and the Su-57 new generation.

    In their air to air missiles they had two upgrades for the R-77 ARH missile... one was a ramjet powered model and one was an improved rocket motor model... and they have said that the rocket motor option was quicker and easier and achieved the required performance so they decided to close down the R-77 ramjet upgrade programme and just focus on the R-77 improved rocket motor programme because they could get it into service quicker and easier.

    I would also suspect that time spent on the ramjet model would be largely wasted as as soon as it is ready it will be eclipsed by the replacement missile that will be adopted to replace the R-77 family that will likely be a scramjet powered missile of much better performance... likely with twice the flight speed of the ramjet or improved rocket model and therefore much better speed and range performance... and not hugely more complex in terms of development.... the new missile could start as a ramjet and be upgraded to a scramjet as the new motor technologies are improved and perfected...
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:51 am

    The repeat what I wrote in my older post above, sounds like the R-77M is formidable AAM

    Active radar seeker with an active phased array antenna 9B-1103М2.

    The illustrations show the layout of the GOS exhibited at the exhibition MAKS-2019 and the booklet given by "Agate".
    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 10 TbAouXAPmBc
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    The latest development of JSC "mnii Agat"

    is Designed primarily for advanced missiles "air-air" medium-range missiles, in particular, for the R-77M.

    Serial production of the missile already starts, in accordance with the contract signed, the Ministry of defense during the forum Army-2019.

    According to the developers, the GOS is also suitable for rockets of class "air-surface".

    Having an antenna diameter of only 100 mm, seeker can detect targets with

    RCS of 0.003 sq. m at a distance of over 2 km
    with RCS of 0.1 sq m (rocket "air-Air" or stealth fighter) - 5 km
    with RCS of 5 sq m (conventional fighter) - more than 12 km  

    Available frequency bands of operation - Ki and Ka.

    Weight of GOS is noticeably smaller than its predecessor 9B-1103М (for missiles R-77-1 and RVV-SD) - weight 3.5 kg vs 5.7 kg, 230 mm length 300 mm and diameter 100 mm vs. 150 mm, with comparable characteristics.

    However, the main feature of GOS is electronic beam steering antennas and, as a consequence, much more rapid scanning of the airspace in comparison to all predecessors that will be surely helpful for the tasks of missile defense of the carrier, and also in conditions of active electronic countermeasures by the enemy. In creating the AESA seeker for this was also attended by Fazotron-NIIR and NIIP Tikhomirov.


    Text and photos: encyclopedia of Military Aircraft

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    Post  Austin on Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:17 pm

    Isos wrote:More pics of r-74M here 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1148272492697571328

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    What is R-74M ? Any specs ? Thank You
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    Post  Hole on Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:41 pm

    Continuation of the R-73. New seeker.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:11 pm

    And longer range 40km compare to 30 for r73. IIIR seeker. And more off boresight angle.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:07 am

    Su-34 armed with a R-27P1 / R-27EP1 AAM with passive guidance

    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 10 EEVcdUqUcAEisOL?format=jpg&name=large


    Details here:
    Arrow http://eng.ktrv.ru/production/military_production/air-to-air_missiles/r-27p1_-_r-27ep1.html
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:48 am

    Interesting considering the aircraft it is mounted on... wonder if it can be used as an ARM against radar emitting ground targets... like that version of sidewinder for attacking Shilka radars.... I think they called is Sidearm or something... but the Sidewinder has a 10kg warhead and R-27 has a 40kg warhead... and rather longer range in most versions.... it is much like the AS-12 family of ARMs based on the Kh-25 family.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:08 am

    It must have a passive radar against x band radars as it was designed to target other fighters. So it could engage x band ground radars with no difficulties, but that means engaging tracking radars so the air defence system launched a missile against the su-34.

    There is also an ad from Vympel about r-77 where they show it launched against ground radar. It is a newer missile and has home-on-jamm capabiloty which actually a passive mode (passive radar).

    The same way, in theory, a kh-31 coukd be used against an airborne radar like against an AWACS.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:Interesting considering the aircraft it is mounted on... wonder if it can be used as an ARM against radar emitting ground targets... like that version of sidewinder for attacking Shilka radars.... I think they called is Sidearm or something... but the Sidewinder has a 10kg warhead and R-27 has a 40kg warhead... and rather longer range in most versions.... it is much like the AS-12 family of ARMs based on the Kh-25 family.

    It's an interesting application. At a speed of Mach 4.5 (or 5556.6 km/h) and a range of 130km, it could basically knockout a radar that distance away within 1 minute and 24 seconds of flight time.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:15 am

    Well think about the implications of its original purpose... in the 1980s the west thought it would win in Europe because although the WP had the numbers, they believed they had the better trained pilots and would prevail in air to air combat.

    Of course when the high off boresight R-73 became better understood they still thought they had the advantage because their Sparrows were better... except they weren't. The R-27 was faster and longer ranged than Sparrow and in theory could kill the F-15 before the F-15s Sparrow had hit its target meaning one nil in BVR combat.

    This had them rather scared... but not as scared as they should be... for an F-15 to launch a sparrow it needed a lock and it needed to continously illuminate the target with that radar beam for the sparrow to have any chance of a hit.

    The F-15 had a very good radar so tracking the target would not be a problem but a target as small as a missile would be a tough item to track and if you are illuminating the target you are not tracking anything.

    Say I am in a MiG-29 and you are in an F-15 and we are 60km apart but closing rapidly... at 40km you illuminate my aircraft with a radar beam and launch a Sparrow... the illumination beam tells me what you are and what you are doing (F-16s generally only had sidewinders)... my R-27s are the shorter range models because I don't carry the bigger E model R-27s... they are for Flankers and later model Fulcrums.

    I will of course launch a R-27P1, which will easily lock on the pencil radar beam directed at my aircraft... like a light seeking missile flying at a light house that is pointing its light at me.

    You probably wont know my missile is coming because I don't even need to turn on my radar and the missile is passive homing... it is also faster than your Sparrow. Once I have fired I can turn and climb and accelerate away... you have to keep illuminating me or your sparrow will miss... if I turn and appear to run away it gives my missile more time to reach you and when it does a 40kg explosion a few metres from your nose mounted radar will kill you... you wont get a chance to eject... it will be moving at more than four times the speed of sound which means one second it is a kilometre away and next it is detonating a few metres away from you... ejection seats take more than one second to eject.

    The explosion would shatter your radar so your missile goes dead as well...

    AMRAAM suddenly got all the funding it needed... for years there was the plan for AMRAAM and ASRAAM... neither of which was funded very well and there was not much interest in it for most of the 80s. AMRAAM was going to be American and ASRAAM was going to be British and most NATO countries were supposed to use both.

    Of course with examination of the MiG-29 they lost interest in short range AAMs because even if you got the other aircraft they would just have to launch an R-73 before they were destroyed to have quite a good chance of killing you too. They weren't interested in one all draws, so the focus shifted to BVR... which had always been mediocre in terms of kill probability.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:32 am

    Interestingly, there was work being done during the 80's on a submarine launched version of the R-27 to target patrol aircraft
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    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:37 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Interestingly, there was work being done during the 80's on a submarine launched version of the R-27 to target patrol aircraft


    With the new ARH 70km range buk it would be better. The only thing needed is a radar that could guide the missile and being ARH means you don't need something powerfull. Modern sub masts incorporate radars but I doubt they can spot at long range and very unlikely they could guide a missile.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:24 pm

    Radar guidance would be too much of a give away.... a radar signal form the middle of the ocean where there are no surface vessels would attract enormous attention from any force hunting for subs.

    How about an IIR guided R-27 that uses a lock on after launch guidance system like they are developing for the 9M100.

    Some sort of simple IR sensor mount with 360 degree views as developed for the S-350 which uses both radar guided 9M96 missiles and the IIR guided 9M100 missiles... I would expect a passive detection mode where it uses IR sensors and optics to detect and track all sorts of targets and then can launch either IIR guided 9M100 missiles or 9M96 ARH missiles (the 50km range one... I doubt it could detect targets at 50km let alone 150km), so the system would exist... and to be honest a mast that can be raised to search for aerial targets passively without emitting radar waves would probably be quite useful for a sub anyway...

    On a different topic, if the new model R-77M missiles have a range of 200km then are they going to upgrade the RVV-BD export R-37Ms which were supposed to have a range of 200km in the exported model (280km in the domestic model)...

    With the new ARH 70km range buk it would be better.

    The 9M96 should be plenty... the smaller 50km range one because I doubt they will be detecting targets at 70km let alone 50km, but having them operate no where near their max range should ensure they are more within their no escape zone for the targets they engage.

    The UKSK-M launcher is supposed to be a unified system that can carry SAMs as well as anti ship, land attack, and anti sub weapons, so fitting them to a Yasen class SSGN means one tube with perhaps 16 9M96 missiles of the 50-60km range version would be ideal... apart from installing the UKSK-M launcher system and adding a mast you could probably get away with not having to do very much to give it that capability.

    Anti sub helos and MPAs are not the most difficult targets... but then imagine an arsenal sub based on the Akula SSBN with UKSK-M launch tubes... you could fit the sail with enormous AESA radar panels and IR sensors and have it sit on the surface launching thousands of SAMs to defend a group of ships... a SAM and radar picket frigate would have nothing on it.... Twisted Evil

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