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    Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:29 am

    Pretty big news...

    State machine-building design Bureau "Vympel im. I. I. Toropova" signed the state contract for manufacture and supply of "Izd 180".

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6601330

    Izd. 180 = K-77M / R-77M

    The R-77M-PD version was reportedly aimed to have max range of 200km
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:18 am

    I would expect work on the ramjet powered model was probably stopped and changed for work on a scramjet powered model... would be capable of much higher speeds and much greater ranges.

    I remember they mentioned they had stopped work on the ramjet model to complete the improved rocket longer ranged missile and I suspect this is that.

    I suspect they changed from working on a ramjet model, which would have similar speed to a rocket powered missile but rather better range and powered all the way flight, to a scramjet model which potentially could be twice as fast with much greater range due to it also being powered throughout its flight.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:55 am

    The PD variant is probably still in development...the most interesting part about the R-77M is that it's suppose to have an AESA radar seeker. I remember reading about it a while back that it would be difficult to shake off once a lock is achieved....the standard evasive maneuvers apparently wont work
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:43 pm

    Yes, but the PD variant has an air breathing ramjet motor... I suspect they will adapt their requirements and instead of making a ramjet model, a scramjet model would achieve rather better performance for a similar development effort as a ramjet.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:20 pm

    More pics of r-74M here 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1148272492697571328

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 pm

    Isos wrote:More pics of r-74M here 

    https://mobile.twitter.com/RALee85/status/1148272492697571328

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    Post  George1 on Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:20 pm

    For the first time in public, the new rocket was presented at the ARMY-2018 forum.



    More photos

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3700881.html
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:03 am

    More info on the Izd. 180 / K-77M...sounds pretty formidable Cool

    Russian Air-to-Air missiles - Page 10 1378015

    In the framework of military-technical forum "Army-2019" design Bureau "Vympel" demonstrated its new development – a missile "air-air" which exceeds in its parameters the existing missiles of this class.

    "Product 180" is a new missile received index K-77M, which will be initially installed on su-57, and in the future may go for export abroad.

    And though the rocket received index K-77M, but it has nothing to do with the missile K-77. The rocket is produced with a new aerodynamic scheme with X-shaped wings that reduces drag and as a consequence increased range.

    Rocket in addition to the main wing (2 in diagram below) also added a stationary aerodynamic surface (4) before "driving" (3), which allowed to solve the main problem of all long-range missiles "air-air", namely the ability to maneuver at subsonic speeds. For example, the famous American missile AIM-120 and its recent modernization the AIM-120D have not been able to maneuver at speeds of less than 1200 km/h (while trying to maneuver increased angle of attack, and the rocket began to disintegrate.)

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    Also the missile is equipped with a double-pulse solid-propellant engine, which allowes  high-altitude maneuvering and enables a range of up to 192 kilometers.

    In addition, the missile is equipped with inertial navigation system and active radar homing head.

    All these changes make the new missile K-77M a truly unique and a real formidable weapon.

    Experts pay attention that apparently the Russian defense Ministry are very serious about the project su-57 and to develop this fighter is really unique weapons that have no analogues in the world. We already know that the su-57 would be installed a shorter version of hypersonic missile "Kinzhal" gliding cluster bomb "Drel", and now the missile K-77M. All of these types of weapons created recently and is unique in its characteristics.

    https://vladimir-krm.livejournal.com/5950713.html
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:39 pm

    I highly doubt it will have the same size as r-77 but with double range. More likely it will be something like the last on your picture.

    Too bad they didn't go for a scramjet version to create a new era for missiles.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:10 pm

    Isos wrote:I highly doubt it will have the same size as r-77 but with double range. More likely it will be something like the last on your picture.

    Too bad they didn't go for a scramjet version to create a new era for missiles.

    Zircon's development cycle isn't complete yet. After it's finished you'll see a 'modernization.'
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:22 am

    They haven't said anything about scramjet versions of AAMs, but what they have said is that they want long range missiles, and that the two options they had were an improved rocket motor mode, and a ramjet powered model.

    They have said they cancelled the ramjet project and focussed on the improved rocket motor version because it was a quicker and easier solution to the problem of getting a longer range medium AAM into production and service.

    But the enormous potential of scramjets suggests to me they likely cancelled the ramjet design but change to a scramjet design with much higher speed and also therefore range, but as mentioned it will take longer than the improved rocket propelled model or the now cancelled ramjet model to develop and put into service... being powered it could turn 180 degrees without becoming a dud...
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:49 pm

    Range is not important if your missile can't manoeuvre at max range. That was proven when pakistani and US fighters used them at max range against indian MKI and iraqi mig-25.

    Ramjet/scramjet makes it more dangerous at long range. And russia has a long experience of making them. It is weired they never finished the r-77 ramjet version.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:52 am

    These missiles will be moving at mach 5... this is not something you can dodge like they do in the movies and even if you could at the last seconds of interception the proximity fuse means it can miss the target by several metres and still achieve a kill.

    Ramjet/scramjet makes it more dangerous at long range.

    Is there any combat experience/data that actually shows that to be the case?

    On paper, I agree that with a working engine the missile will be able to manouver much better than a rocket powered missile whose fuel burnt out and is not coasting... but having an engine running does not allow a higher g turn, it just means when you pull a high g turn you lose less speed because you are still being pushed forward by the engine... so a high g turn at the last second of the intercept means both would likely miss... the question is, will that powered missile have the energy to do a full 180 degree turn and come around again and have another go at the target... but at the air speed these missiles are moving at a 180 degree turn might take an enormous volume of airspace... the SR-71 spy plane when flying at mach 3.2 couldn't turn 180 degrees and stay inside the airspace of the state of California... by the time it had turned around and headed back will the target still be there... and if it has dodged the missile once... is it not possible that it might dodge it again?

    And russia has a long experience of making them. It is weired they never finished the r-77 ramjet version.

    Not weird at all... perfectly logical.

    If they are making catapults for aircraft carriers right now they will make EMALS cats because any catapult system will be expensive and time consuming to develop so you might as well spend that money developing the new system rather than an old one.

    With missiles it is the same... across the board the Russians have been consistent in their weapons development programme... first upgrade existing tech as far as you can, and then introduce new generation tech... potentially upgrading the old with basic new tech for the new, but the new tech is a generational improvement compared with the upgraded old stuff which is an improvement but not a generational one.

    Examples are the T-90 and the Armata T-14... the upgrades to the T-90 improve the fleet performance fast and can be applied to older models like T-72 and T-80 upgrades, while the generational improvements go to the Armata, Kurganets, Boomerang, and Typhoon vehicle families for the future.

    In aircraft there are the MiG-35 and Su-35 upgrades, and the Su-57 new generation.

    In their air to air missiles they had two upgrades for the R-77 ARH missile... one was a ramjet powered model and one was an improved rocket motor model... and they have said that the rocket motor option was quicker and easier and achieved the required performance so they decided to close down the R-77 ramjet upgrade programme and just focus on the R-77 improved rocket motor programme because they could get it into service quicker and easier.

    I would also suspect that time spent on the ramjet model would be largely wasted as as soon as it is ready it will be eclipsed by the replacement missile that will be adopted to replace the R-77 family that will likely be a scramjet powered missile of much better performance... likely with twice the flight speed of the ramjet or improved rocket model and therefore much better speed and range performance... and not hugely more complex in terms of development.... the new missile could start as a ramjet and be upgraded to a scramjet as the new motor technologies are improved and perfected...

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