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    S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

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    franco

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  franco on Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:38 pm

    George1 wrote:So how many battalions in total we have in 12 regiments?

    The million dollar question my friend.
    At least 1 battalion per every regiment that has upgraded plus arguments could be made for a possible 2-3 battalions more.
    With the 300PM's upgrading to PMU standard (with 400 compatibility) it is very hard to tell the difference via Sat images.
    They use the same type launcher trailer format with the main difference being the 400 is a meter longer. If they were side by side maybe, but looking at two different locations, I can't tell them apart. Others claim to and I'm sure NSA computers can but not me.
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  franco on Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:49 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    franco wrote:@Viktor

    By my present count Engagement Radars are at 84 sites.

    Have you noticed that the Air Force and Air Defense units are reverting to their pre-Serdyokov reform names and organizations? The Air Defense Brigades are back being Air Defense Divisions comprised of SAM regiments and Radio Technical regiments as you mentioned giving Radar, EW and ECM units in conjunction with the SAM units.

    I dont think that is the case. The system of batteries (batallions/divisions depending of the territorial/army organization), regiments (its vise versa in regard to the battery case) and brigades will still be here far in to the future. Thing is that in todays time in comparision with 20+ years ago, battery is a much more independent unit than it was in any previos time.
    Because of that you will see much more batteries  serving as an independant units (mostly regimental ones because of the 55K6 ability as a powerfull regimental command post).

    So 84 found/visible prepaired positions as opposed to approx. 220-250 S-300PXX/VXX/400 engagement radar sets.




    Count does not include 300V's.
    As we agreed to disagree on this item in the past and from my attempting to understand our different views. Wonder if you include all the 300PT's Engagement Radars which are now in storage for the most part and not useful for the PS/PM/400 missiles. By the way, Sean O'Connor on his web site before Jane's booked his exclusive services in 2013 felt there might have been 2 regiments with 6 battalions still using the PT's.
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:45 pm

    franco wrote:
    George1 wrote:So how many battalions in total we have in 12 regiments?

    The million dollar question my friend.
    At least 1 battalion per every regiment that has upgraded plus arguments could be made for a possible 2-3 battalions more.
    With the 300PM's upgrading to PMU standard (with 400 compatibility) it is very hard to tell the difference via Sat images.
    They use the same type launcher trailer format with the main difference being the 400 is a meter longer. If they were side by side maybe, but looking at two different locations, I can't tell them apart. Others claim to and I'm sure NSA computers can but not me.

    in wiki says 25 battalions in 12 regiments


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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Viktor on Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:28 am

    George1 wrote:
    in wiki says 25 battalions in 12 regiments

    Around so. Who could know the real number. 56 will be delivered by 2020 in 28 regiments and there is still 5 years to go. Still modernization of the existing S-300 to the lvl near that of S-400 is just as important. Russia could and I believe is producing way more 92N6 to replace 30N6 radar sets togeather with 96L6 and new missiles. Huge and modern integrated air defense netwoork is being brougth to a new lvl as we speak. 5 new S-400 regiments will enter service in 2016 + 2 or more S -300VM. Also we will see first deployment of the S-350 and BUK-M3 and BUK-M2 with score of others Very Happy

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  rambo54 on Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:45 am

    George1 wrote:
    franco wrote:
    George1 wrote:So how many battalions in total we have in 12 regiments?

    The million dollar question my friend.
    At least 1 battalion per every regiment that has upgraded plus arguments could be made for a possible 2-3 battalions more.
    With the 300PM's upgrading to PMU standard (with 400 compatibility) it is very hard to tell the difference via Sat images.
    They use the same type launcher trailer format with the main difference being the 400 is a meter longer. If they were side by side maybe, but looking at two different locations, I can't tell them apart. Others claim to and I'm sure NSA computers can but not me.

    in wiki says 25 battalions in 12 regiments

    At a fair resolution of - let's say - 0.5 m it is possible to distinguish 5P85T-1 and 5P85T-2 (although the difference is just 0.585m in length). There are some vital characteristics.

    To keep up with S-400 sites it is more difficult to distinguish S-300PS (5P85S-1) and S-400 (5P85S-2).

    For example: The latest information say that 1533 RGT at Vladivostok is not yet equipped with S-400 but will soon. At the Moment they are on Training at Ashuluk.
    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/70772/
    Therefore the exact No of S-400 RGt at the end of 2015 is 11 (assuming that 590 at Novosibirsk and a yet unknown RGT at St.Petersburg - maybe 500th - is already equipped wit S-400).
    For Novosibirsk we have confirmation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrdsRcbPW8U
    For St.Petersburg we have not.
    But without these informations it is hard to tell whether the two sites of the RGt at Vladivostok are equipped with 5P85S1 or S2.
    If 500th is re-equipped with 5P85S2 it is an easy job because they differ from the previous 5P85T1 of PM.
    More difficult is Moscow. There are rumors in the russian net that 549 spent their equipment. Half of the unit was going to Latakia and half to Gatchina as training unit. And that 549 was re-equipped in Januar 2016! It would be easy if this was done with 5P85T2 but impossible when they got just another batch of 5P85S2.
    I'm still not sure what happened with the third Battalions of 606/210/93.
    I mean, whether the mysterious 5th RGt set for Moscow was used to fill them up or whether the 5th set just means that 549 was re-euipped in exchange for some re-deployments.
    If the third Battalions were filled up then it matters with what type of launchers.
    Are there still newly produced 5P85T2 (at all) to fill up 606 and 210? Or would they use 5P85S2 instead?
    It would be more easy to figure out a change on the third site of 93. The latest image show no launchers there! If new 5P85S2 or even 5P85T2 come up we will know.
    The thesis of filling up the Moscow RGTs comes up when you have a look at the third site of 210.
    The northern row of launchers is clearly S-300PM 5P85T1 but the southern row is definitely 5P85T2!

    But appart from that it is more difficult to figure out the No of Battalions!
    1. Do the Moscow RGT 606/210/93 have two or three Batt of S-400?
    2. Kaliningrad have 12 launchers ( not 8 ) at a former S-200 site. Are this one or two Batts?
    3. Polyarny: We have 12 5P85S2 at Gadshievo site. Is this one or two Batt? At the second site of this RGT (Severomorsk) we had up to July 12 PMs with 5P85T1. The latest image show no 5P85T1 (probably gone to Novaja Semelya) but three 5P85S2 - is this yet a third Batt?
    4. If St Peterburg got S-400 - e.g. with the 500th - did they replace their 4 PM Batt (at two sites) with 2 or 3 S-400 Batts?

    All this makes it very difficult to keep up. I think it is possible to follow the No of RGT (11 at the end of 2015 - next will be Vladivostok) but harder to keep up with the Batts (Dec 2015: likely: 23 Batt at 20 sites) and even much more hard to keep up with the No of launchers in a Batt (sometimes 6, 8 or even 12?)!

    BTW: Does someone know whether the previously announced launcher 51P6A was just a Gimmik or a real thing to deploy? I never found one of those.

    Thanks and Cheers

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Arrow on Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:46 pm

    How many S-300V/V4 battery Russia has ?
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Viktor on Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:54 pm

    Arrow wrote:How many S-300V/V4 battery Russia has ?

    It should be somewhere between 50 to 60 batteries depending on wheather they replaced or retired older S-300V versions (12 of them I think).

    Anyway by the 2020 there should be abt. 72 S-300VM batteries in 8 to 9 brigades.
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  franco on Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:08 pm

    The older 300V vehicles are being rebuilt to the new 300V4 standard. There where 40 vehicles done in the first contract and 80-90 being done in the second contract. Final total is to be 9 brigades, how many battalions and batteries that will total, who knows?

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Arrow on Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:15 pm

    And all S-300PM will be rebuilt to PM-2 ?
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  franco on Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:19 pm

    Arrow wrote:And all S-300PM will be rebuilt to PM-2 ?

    That is what has been said.

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  rambo54 on Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:12 pm

    franco wrote:
    Arrow wrote:And all S-300PM will be rebuilt to PM-2 ?

    That is what has been said.

    But that doesn't necessarily mean that they gonna change from KraZ 260 to BAZ 64022!
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  franco on Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:18 pm

    rambo54 wrote:
    franco wrote:
    Arrow wrote:And all S-300PM will be rebuilt to PM-2 ?

    That is what has been said.

    But that doesn't necessarily mean that they gonna change from KraZ 260 to BAZ 64022!

    Good post up above, lot's of detail. Check your PM.

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  rambo54 on Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:21 pm

    Arrow wrote:How many S-300V/V4 battery Russia has ?

    Obviously they intend to boost up the number significantly!
    But the 2015 situation is less dramatically. As franco said "just" 40 vehicles were rebuild good for appr. 3 Batt.
    We had 6 Deployment sites 2015:

    Eastern Military District
    --Yushno-Sachalinsk (Sachalin): 39th rifle RGT (31st or 312th AD BGD?)  / 2 Batt
    --Birobidzhan (Jewish Autonomous Oblast): 1724th AD RGT (ex 203rd AD BGD) / 2 Batt

    Central Military District
    --Chebarkul (Tscheljabinsk): 28th AD BGD (1722nd AD RGT?)  / 2 Batt

    Western Military District
    --Naro-Fominsk (Moscow): 202nd AD BGD  / 2 Batt
    --Znamensk (Kaliningrad): 1545th AD RGT  (43rd AD BGD?)  / 2 Batt

    Southern Military District
    --Gyumri (Armenia): 988th AD RGT  / 1 Batt


    Previous locations :
    Western Military District
    --Strugi Krasnye / Vladimirskyy Lager (Pskov):1544th AD RGT  / 2 Batt
    Equipment seems to be stored
    Eastern Military District
    --Tavrichanka (Primorskij): 8th AD BGD? (43.358464° 131.863060°) / 1 Batt
    Central Military District
    -- Pervomayskiy (Orenburg): 1722nd AD BGD  – changed location to Chebarkul and became 28th AD BGD / 2 Batt

    At least Naro-Fominsk got S-300V4. Maybe Znamensk too?

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Arrow on Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:44 pm

    So Russia doesn't has to many S300V/V3 system
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  franco on Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:32 pm

    Arrow wrote:So Russia doesn't  has to many S300V/V3 system

    General consensus is 180-200. But this should over on the 300V thread.
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:04 pm

    Battery—Btry
    Battalion—Bn
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  franco on Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:17 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Battery—Btry
    Battalion—Bn

    So what are they talking about when they say divisions?
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:54 pm

    franco wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Battery—Btry
    Battalion—Bn

    So what are they talking about when they say divisions?


    Дивизия (diviziya) and дивизион (divizion) are different groupings.

    Дивизия (diviziya) is a division, which is/was a formation.

    Дивизион (divizion) in, let's say, artillery corresponds to a батальон (batal'on, battalion, bn) in, let's say, mechanized infantry.


    рота (rota, company) < батальон (batal'on, battalion, bn)

    батарея (batareya, battery) < дивизион (divizion, battalion, bn)


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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    S-400, Triumf

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:24 am

    S-400, Triumf

    A "standard" S-400, Triumf battalion [дивизион (divizion), not дивизия (diviziya, division)] includes up to 6 batteries (батарея, batareya), each comprising up to 12 four-missile (large missiles) launchers.



    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changed from "... 6 batteries ..." to "... up to 6 batteries ...".)

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  rambo54 on Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:09 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:S-400, Triumf

    A "standard" S-400, Triumf battalion [дивизион (divizion), not дивизия (diviziya, division)] includes 6 batteries (батарея, batareya), each comprising up to 12 four-missile (large missiles) launchers.


    This migth be. But in reality the number of Battalions in a RGT is much less (2-3).

    The problem is that in the early days of S-300P they had just about 2 TELs in each Battalion due to the less capable guidance Radar (30N6) regarding electronic & SW.
    To overcome this an early RGT had some 6 Battalions or more at one or two sites. Nowadays a single 92N6 can support 6/8/ or even 12 TELs.
    So there is no need to have too many Battalions in a RGT in order to keep the No of launchers at equal level. So generally we see 2-3 Battalions in a RGT.
    It is helpful to clear up the shortform of the things like you did in your post and not become crazy. But who shall do this in a mandatory manner :-) - maybe franco.

    Basically we have (S-300V as well) a "big unit" which includes several "small units".
    For S-300P/S-400 this is Regiment (RGT) and Battalion (BN) - maybe even divided into divisions (2 or 3) =unit or classic Battery.

    For the S-300V this is more tricky. Some of the "Big units" called Brigade (e.g. 202nd) and some Regiment (like 1544th).
    For these "big units" JANES defined up to 4 of the "smaller units" (Battery or maybe Battalion), each with some 6 TELs.
    Counting the visible equipment over a long period at a given location it seems that the BGD/RGT often have only 2 Batts.

    It is hard to keep consistent with these shortforms :-) and that makes a discussion about numbers so difficult...this counts also for the media releases!!! If you just copy what they wrote then there is even more confusion.
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:53 pm

    franco wrote:
    Arrow wrote:So Russia doesn't  has to many S300V/V3 system

    General consensus is 180-200. But this should over on the 300V thread.

    Not "many" S-300Vs where mady by the end of Soviet Union. 5 or 6 brigades coresponding to the 60 or so batteries.
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:56 pm

    franco wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Battery—Btry
    Battalion—Bn

    So what are they talking about when they say divisions?

    In terrotorial PVO it represents smallest operational unit = battery. In Army PVO it represents smallest operarional unit also but in Army PVO smallest operational unit is regiment (but also than called batallion not battery). You now understand from where confusions starts Very Happy
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:07 pm

    rambo54 wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:S-400, Triumf

    A "standard" S-400, Triumf battalion [дивизион (divizion), not дивизия (diviziya, division)] includes 6 batteries (батарея, batareya), each comprising up to 12 four-missile (large missiles) launchers.


    This migth be. But in reality the number of Battalions in a RGT is much less (2-3).

    The problem is that in the early days of S-300P they had just about 2 TELs in each Battalion due to the less capable guidance Radar (30N6) regarding electronic & SW.
    To overcome this an early RGT had some 6 Battalions or more at one or two sites. Nowadays a single 92N6 can support 6/8/ or even 12 TELs.
    So there is no need to have too many Battalions in a RGT in order to keep the No of launchers at equal level. So generally we see 2-3 Battalions in a RGT.
    It is helpful to clear up the shortform of the things like you did in your post and not become crazy. But who shall do this in a mandatory manner :-) - maybe franco.

    Basically we have (S-300V as well) a "big unit" which includes several "small units".
    For S-300P/S-400 this is Regiment (RGT) and Battalion (BN) - maybe even divided into divisions (2 or 3) =unit or classic Battery.

    For the S-300V this is more tricky. Some of the "Big units" called Brigade (e.g. 202nd) and some Regiment (like 1544th).
    For these "big units" JANES defined up to 4 of the "smaller units" (Battery or maybe Battalion), each with some 6 TELs.
    Counting the visible equipment over a long period at a given location it seems that the BGD/RGT often have only 2 Batts.

    It is hard to keep consistent with these shortforms :-) and that makes a discussion about numbers so difficult...this counts also for the media releases!!! If you just copy what they wrote then there is even more confusion.

    It does not have any connection with the number of TELs. They are mostly unimportant in most analysis. Important thing is for instance number of engagement radar sets,
    Number of missiles simultaneously guided while in air etc. Number of TELs gives you only the most general idea about the number of missiles available but does little to tell you about the capabilities. Even the older engagement radar sets had the ability to have more TELs than it was assigned to it but to now with more computer power even regimental sets of the S-400 can menage Foundation for instance where earliar sytems had to be brigade lvl in order reach max. efficiency as the most general data abt. any sytem can be read from the specs of its command post and engagement radar.
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  franco on Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:13 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    franco wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Battery—Btry
    Battalion—Bn

    So what are they talking about when they say divisions?

    In terrotorial PVO it represents smallest operational unit = battery. In Army PVO it represents smallest operarional unit also but in Army PVO smallest operational unit is regiment (but also than called batallion not battery). You now understand from where confusions starts Very Happy

    Now if we could only agree with how many TEL's are in a division / battery, we would be laughing Wink
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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:46 pm

    franco wrote:
    Viktor wrote:
    franco wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Battery—Btry
    Battalion—Bn

    So what are they talking about when they say divisions?

    In terrotorial PVO it represents smallest operational unit = battery. In Army PVO it represents smallest operarional unit also but in Army PVO smallest operational unit is regiment (but also than called batallion not battery). You now understand from where confusions starts Very Happy

    Now if we could only agree with how many TEL's are in a division / battery, we would be laughing Wink

    Well in Teritorial PVO = max 12 TEL per battery
    Army PVO = 12 also max
    But in general its almost allways smewhat smaller numbers. Rambo should know as he is the one doing the counting.

    Army PVO regiment = up to 4 batteries
    Territorial PVO regiment = 6(8in Russia case) batteries

    Army PVO brigade = up to 3 regimenta
    Teritorial PVO = 2 regiments

    + all the accompanied equipment in each case

    Note that in case of Territorial PVO as in Army PVO brigade set at max can have equal number of batteries.

    That is why in line with unification strategy of the PVO new Baikal can have under ita command both S-300v xxand S-300P xx and s400.

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

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