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    S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

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    Isos

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:43 am

    System is flexible and can be tailored. Most Russian regiments have 2 battalions with 2 batteries of 4 TEL's each for a total of 16 launchers. Each of the launchers have 4 missiles for a total of 64 ready units. Reloads are not stored on a vehicle but on the ground so again that would be flexible. By the look of Sat photos that looks like 2-5 reloads.

    What about the radars and command post? It's one radar of each type (surveillance and targeting) per batteries ? I mean when they buy it, I know they can connect a lot of radars with the command post.

    Radars are the most important thing in the system, if it is destroyed it doesn't matter if you have thousands of missiles you can't use them. Too bad they didn't put a secondary radar for every TEL like on buk or S-300VM.

    Do we know if they get one Nebo or protivnik for every s-400 batterie or battalions or regiments ? Or is it bought alone ?
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    Hole

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:34 pm

    Composition:
    1. The 30K6E battle management system, comprising the 55K6E Command Post and 91N6E Big Bird acquisition radar;
    2. Up to six 98Zh6E Fire Units, each comprising a 92N6E Grave Stone “multimode ” engagement radar, up to twelve 5P85SE2 / 5P85TE2 TELs, each TEL armed with up to four 48N6E2/E3 Missiles
    3. A complement of SAM rounds, comprising arbitrary mixes of the 48N6E, 48N6E2 and 48N6E3
    4. The 30Ts6E logistical support system, comprising missile storage, test and maintenance equipments.

    Each battery got its own fire control radar.
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    Hole

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:39 pm

    Isos wrote: Do we know if they get one Nebo or protivnik for every s-400 batterie or battalions or regiments ? Or is it bought alone ?

    Nebo-M/-U/Protivnik/Gamma-S1 can be part ot the regiment, but mostly they equip a separate unit of the "radio location troops" and supply their data to the C3 System, which in turn informs the missile units.

    Austin

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:15 pm

    Thank You for all the replies.

    How does Russia protect the secret of S-400 when it sells to NATO countries like Turkey , its possible they will give what they have to US.

    Also since China and India operate the same system , Wouldnt they know about how to deal with the systems and this will work to India disadvantage ?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:31 pm

    Its really no different than S-300PMU operations in NATO countries.

    Essentially, some real basic stuff to the radar are different from export variant to domestic. IFF transponders would be different as example. Some other basic components like the software and the encryption would be different. In the end, all aspects are the same - Radar and guidance systems with their frequency and amount of power being used. In this regard, jamming and the like can be done by any system so long as it has much greater energy output than the guidance/tracking radar itself. If they had access to the necessary information like the IFF transponders (being able to then effectively spoof it if they had that info) is where the secrecy is. There really isn't much secrecy behind how radar works, how all that information is transferred, so on so forth. Only thing is, they let off signals. And in these cases, the signals can be encrypted making it hard to spoof it if you cant crack the encryption fast enough. That encryption works for both the IFF transponder and the guidance system for the missiles. In this regard, I believe both can be easily changed - in this case, Turkey will get an IFF transponders based upon their own design thus they wont know what Russia's variant or China's variant is so they cant spoof it. Same with the encryption from datalink between missile and guidance radar - it more than likely would be changed to fit the need of said nation.

    That is why Russia said it could even be sold to the United States. No different if US sold Patriot SAM's to Russia. They can copy it, what not. But so long as they don't have that information, the encryption and what not, there really isn't much to work on.

    How Israel was able to defeat Arab AD systems in the past, was that someone in the soviet union provided info to Israel on such informations, making it easy for them to spoof or jam the systems.

    This is my understanding of it. I could be wrong entirely. But this is what I read/heard.
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    Isos

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:43 pm

    Austin wrote:Thank You for all the replies.

    How does Russia protect the secret of S-400 when it sells to NATO countries like Turkey , its possible they will give what they have to US.

    Also since China and India operate the same system , Wouldnt they know about how to deal with the systems and this will work to India disadvantage ?

    Turkey is more likely to be attacked by US or Israeli than russia. If they give them secrets of EXPORT s-400 it would be an issue for them not for russia.

    It's almost if not impossible to jam. China and india could use it at full potentiel because they already know the operating frequencies.

    S-400 has to be used with interceptors and smaller anti air sysems. Alone it's not more dangerous than any other system. And it far less manoeuvrable than buks or pantsir. Flying low will make the detection reduced to 40 km. If there are mountains  it is even more useless. With pantsirs and manpad put at the good locations it is already better. Add buks and it is the best air defence you can have.

    China and even nato countries don't need the system to know how to deal with it. You just stay out of range. ARMs are easy to use against isolated air def systems even s-400. The thing is to use it in an integrated air defence.

    Frequencies will be analyzed the first of war. So if you want to win you need well trained crews and good communication and command posts. If just relly on the system you will lose. That's why arabs have lost so much wars. They relly on the soviet system instead of on the crews. From tanks to airplanes and air defence.
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    Hole

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:43 pm

    miketheterrible wrote: How Israel was able to defeat Arab AD systems in the past, was that someone in the soviet union provided info to Israel on such informations, making it easy for them to spoof or jam the systems.

    This is my understanding of it.  I could be wrong entirely.  But this is what I read/heard.

    They (Israel) captured a few guidance radars. With the old systems is was no great problem to find out the frequencies which they used, afterwards it was easy to jam them.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:23 am

    They already knew the frequencies. We know the frequencies of nearly all radars now as is. It's not the problem.

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    Hole

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Hole on Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:05 am

    Sure. Today. But back in the 60´s? Nope.
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    GarryB

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:38 am

    Just listening to operating radars will not tell you all of their capabilities... the US and many other countries spent long periods and lots of lives during the cold war baiting air defence forces and listening in to radio commands and radar frequencies and the location of electronics and their procedures for attack and defence... the Israelis basically did the same.

    Later the Israelis used drones to get the Arabs to use their new air defence systems and then used dedicated anti radiation missiles to take out the radars... an SA-6 battery is defenceless when the main radar vehicle is taken out... that is why the SA-11 that is its upgrade is more expensive and has guidance radars on each TEL, so a central radar cannot be destroyed and then the missile vehicles blown up with dumb bombs from F-16s. Upgrades include optical guidance too.

    the point is that the upgrade after that is to develop a SAM that can shoot down ARMs... hense the SA-11 is upgraded to SA-17.

    Tactic and then evolution of the system to defeat the tactic... and generally upgrades of the older systems to defeat the tactic that was used to defeat them.

    If you were to replace all the SA-2 batteries in the Vietnam war with modern SA-2s with modern upgrades a lot more planes would have been shot down.

    Modern digital electronics and components are not just lighter and more effective... just look at Sparrow... a very ordinary AAM with mediocre performance... like most BVR missiles of the period.... yet in the modern digital ESSM as a naval SAM and it is supposed to be wonderful....
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:20 pm

    Hole wrote:Sure. Today. But back in the 60´s? Nope.

    It wouldn't really make much difference as I am saying on account that even if one knows, you have to have much greater output on your jamming equipment than the ground radars let off. So let's say the ground radar is standard X band at 15Ghz frequency, you would need greater than that on a aircraft to jam it's frequency. I doubt planes back then had such output power.

    Maybe for against smaller/weaker ground radar.
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    Hole

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  Hole on Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm

    I meant that with the old radar tech (vacuum tubes and so on) the Israelis could establish exactly in which frequencys the radars of the S-125 and Kub systems worked and could tune their ECM systems accordingly.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:55 pm

    Yes....but once again you have to be able to provide greater outputs.

    But anyway, point is moot. We are at a time were we know what frequencies military radar, and new ones at that, because encryptions is what protects them now.
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    GarryB

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    Re: S-300/400 ORBAT. Battalions and Regiments

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:39 am

    Many systems can operate in different frequency ranges and move between frequencies... often there are peace time modes and war time modes and procedures too.

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