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    Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

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    GarryB

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    AFAIK Morfei will be a very ambitious weapon whose capability will be rather impressive.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:46 am

    AFAIK Morfei will be a very ambitious weapon whose capability will be rather impressive.

    It is a force unified missile so the Air force will use it as the standard short range IR guided missile, while the Army will use it as a short range SAM and the Navy will use it as a CIWS short range missile.

    It is reported to use IIR QWIP sensor that actually sees the world in images rather than hot points like old IR guided missiles.

    Just as importantly it has a datalink that allows lock on after launch capability... in other words on a ship or submarine you can have these missiles in vertical launch tubes... when the target is detected a missile is launched on autopilot and it flys in the direction of the target and starts looking with its IIR sensor... finds the target and locks on.

    this is critical for 5th gen stealth aircraft as it allows the missile to be ejected from an internal weapons bay and fly towards the target and then get a lock. In comparison the fairly clumsy arrangement on the F-22 has the Sidewinders extended out of the weapon bays to allow the seekers see their targets before launch.

    Lock on after launch or LOAL means much shorter periods with bays open and also opens the possibility for similar seekers to be used in situations like tank gun launched anti tank weapons where the target is acquired after launch including a top attack munition with a diving top attack profile.

    QWIP sensors wont be cheap initially but over time their costs should drop the way CCD sensor chips have to a few cents... making diving top attack munitions cheaper but also much more capable.

    The datalink can be used to select targets from the launch platform so firing multiple missiles does not lead to them all locking on to the same target or each other.

    Austin

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:55 pm

    what ever happened to the Ultra Short range missile under development that was similar to Iron Dome in concept , suddenly there is no news there ?
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    franco

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  franco on Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:30 pm

    Austin wrote:what ever happened to the Ultra Short range missile under development that was similar to Iron Dome in concept , suddenly there is no news there ?

    Read last year there were development problems. What I don't know.
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    GarryB

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    what ever happened to the Ultra Short range missile under development that was similar to Iron Dome in concept , suddenly there is no news there ?

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:23 am

    what ever happened to the Ultra Short range missile under development that was similar to Iron Dome in concept , suddenly there is no news there ?

    You mean Morfei? 9M100?

    Well I remember in the late 1980s the Mi28 was revealed at foreign airshows, but the Ka-50 was kept secret... mainly because the Ka-50 was accepted for service and the Mi-28 was not.

    Silence can mean problems with development or they can mean they are not prepared to export them any time soon so they don't reveal any information about them to the public.

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    d_taddei2

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    Another question How effective is Tor M1&M2 and Buk M1,M2, M3 and tunguska against western aircraft?

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:06 pm

    Another question How effective is Tor M1&M2 and Buk M1,M2, M3 and tunguska against western aircraft?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:44 am

    I doubt we will find out because I doubt western aircraft would knowingly fly within range of any such systems.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  Isos on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:I doubt we will find out because I doubt western aircraft would knowingly fly within range of any such systems.

    The best thing to do is to ambush fighter by turning radars on jut when they are in range. They should have however good communictions to know fighters are there.

    Another question How effective is Tor M1&M2 and Buk M1,M2, M3 and tunguska against western aircraft?

    Israeli mannaged to evade Syrian Buk missiles. Who knows how they managed to do that (jamming, being at limit range and escaping missiles ..) but they are very good system specially Buk M3, they (specialist who made it) said that it is better than S-300P.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:16 pm

    How they managed to strike Syrian Buks are rather easy - they either struck them while they were on the move (their missiles wouldn't be protruding and radar obviously not in use) and or they struck it outside of range (flying in Israeli territory and dropping a guided munitions than 50km away).

    While Buks are awesome systems, they are rather static when they are to be deployed. So they are good for providing air cover for a forward operating base or some kind of formation that isn't mobile at the time. Tor is mean for fighting while on move and against PGM's.

    extreme_one

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  extreme_one on Sun May 13, 2018 2:42 am

    If you were to purchase the very best Russian systems for an imaginary country with no existing SAMs and no limit on money what would your choices be for the air defense force, army and navy?
    Feel free to suggest if any of the below systems shouldn't even be in the discussion or changed to a newer version I haven't listed.

    9K333 Verba
    9K33 Osa
    9K35 Strela-10
    2K22 Tunguska
    Pantsir-SM
    Buk-M3
    Tor-M2U
    Sosna-R
    Bagulnik
    42S6 Morfey
    S-350E Vityaz 50R6
    S-300V4
    S-400
    S-500
    A–235

    extreme_one

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  extreme_one on Sun May 20, 2018 9:40 pm

    Is this forum dead? =(
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  Hole on Mon May 21, 2018 11:38 am

    Yes, you killed it. Very Happy


    Suggestions:

    Army: S-300V4, Buk-M3, Tor-M2, Tunguska-M1, Sosna, Verba

    Air force: S-500, S-350, Pantsir
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    George1

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  George1 on Mon May 21, 2018 2:10 pm

    extreme_one wrote:If you were to purchase the very best Russian systems for an imaginary country with no existing SAMs and no limit on money what would your choices be for the air defense force, army and navy?
    Feel free to suggest if any of the below systems shouldn't even be in the discussion or changed to a newer version I haven't listed.

    9K333 Verba
    9K33 Osa
    9K35 Strela-10
    2K22 Tunguska
    Pantsir-SM  
    Buk-M3
    Tor-M2U
    Sosna-R
    Bagulnik
    42S6 Morfey
    S-350E Vityaz 50R6
    S-300V4
    S-400
    S-500
    A–235

    depends on the adversary..

    extreme_one

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  extreme_one on Mon May 21, 2018 4:37 pm

    George1 wrote:
    extreme_one wrote:If you were to purchase the very best Russian systems for an imaginary country with no existing SAMs and no limit on money what would your choices be for the air defense force, army and navy?
    Feel free to suggest if any of the below systems shouldn't even be in the discussion or changed to a newer version I haven't listed.

    9K333 Verba
    9K33 Osa
    9K35 Strela-10
    2K22 Tunguska
    Pantsir-SM  
    Buk-M3
    Tor-M2U
    Sosna-R
    Bagulnik
    42S6 Morfey
    S-350E Vityaz 50R6
    S-300V4
    S-400
    S-500
    A–235

    depends on the adversary..

    This is a shopping list for Iran. Disregarding the current equipment they have.
    I would think in the first days of the attack they would launch around 500 cruise missiles.
    Google has a map with all the US bases around Iran
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=29.075375241390315%2C53.876952687499966&spn=30.823114%2C43.945313&t=h&msa=0&z=5&source=embed&ie=UTF8&mid=1XmUD73hHQVBbdm8UcIrRtAcCgTg



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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon May 21, 2018 5:53 pm

    In that regard, to being hit by ridiculous amount of missiles, then SHORADS and possibly medium range missiles, with a whole lot to dispense, is ideal.

    So in this regard, Pantsirs are much needed and possibly the best option next to modern Tor-M2 using the newest missile 9M338.

    For medium range, HQ-16, Shtil knockoff for land use, may be a good option as it carries more missiles.

    extreme_one

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  extreme_one on Mon May 21, 2018 6:17 pm

    They have a $16B/year military budget.
    Makes you think what they spend it on since they are not buying anything.
    They have a massive need for hardware and I think the US withdrawal is the perfect excuse to not follow the weapons embargo. Although I think Russia has turned soft in recent weeks.

    After the initial cruise missiles strike, aircraft would start attacking.

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    Hole

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  Hole on Mon May 21, 2018 9:54 pm

    Iran has its own arms industry. They build there own drones, ASM´s, SAM´s and a lot of other stuff.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  George1 on Mon May 21, 2018 10:30 pm

    extreme_one wrote:
    George1 wrote:
    extreme_one wrote:If you were to purchase the very best Russian systems for an imaginary country with no existing SAMs and no limit on money what would your choices be for the air defense force, army and navy?
    Feel free to suggest if any of the below systems shouldn't even be in the discussion or changed to a newer version I haven't listed.

    9K333 Verba
    9K33 Osa
    9K35 Strela-10
    2K22 Tunguska
    Pantsir-SM  
    Buk-M3
    Tor-M2U
    Sosna-R
    Bagulnik
    42S6 Morfey
    S-350E Vityaz 50R6
    S-300V4
    S-400
    S-500
    A–235

    depends on the adversary..

    This is a shopping list for Iran. Disregarding the current equipment they have.
    I would think in the first days of the attack they would launch around 500 cruise missiles.
    Google has a map with all the US bases around Iran
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=29.075375241390315%2C53.876952687499966&spn=30.823114%2C43.945313&t=h&msa=0&z=5&source=embed&ie=UTF8&mid=1XmUD73hHQVBbdm8UcIrRtAcCgTg




    even though, ABMs S-500 and A–235 aren't for export.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 22, 2018 10:14 am

    Well, to be honest the Pantsir has proven to be effective against cruise missiles, but I would back it up with 4-6 A-50s and later with an export model of the A-100.

    I would sell to the Iranians the licence to produce as many Pantsir missiles as they like for 1 dollar, on the condition that it is only for domestic Iranian self defence use... they can put them on trucks, armoured vehicles, ships, they can mount them on aircraft... manned and unmanned.

    I would also sell them some MiG-31s and a licence to produce R-33s... for domestic use only.

    Looking at that map of nearby US bases I would also sell them Iskander missiles, and the licence to produce them minus the guidance, which I would sell to them... as many as they wanted.

    But most important I would provide them with a communications network and command system that allows all of their SAM batteries to communicate, and work together to deal with external threats together in a unified way.

    The British won the battle of britain, not because they had more planes or better planes or better pilots... they won because they had better command and control and radar. They didn't need to patrol all the time looking for threats or attacks... they could rest planes and pilots but when an attack came they could concentrate their forces to meet that attack. They had fewer planes but in the air they could bring as many aircraft to bear as they needed to get local superiority.

    It is the same with attacks from cruise missiles... and it is easier to use air and ground assets together.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian SAMs: Views-Comparisons-Questions

    Post  Hole on Tue May 22, 2018 10:30 am

    Russian-Iranian company. Best way for both sides. Earn money. Get modern weapons.

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