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    Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

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    JohninMK

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:38 pm


    Officials in the Jakarta, Indonesia's capital, have announced that Russia is set to sell 11 Sukhoi fighter jets to the Southeast Asian country.

    The 11 jets worth $1.14 billion will be paid by Indonesia shipping around $570 million in commodities, with the remainder paid on cash.

    Indonesia's Trade Minister Enggartiasto Lukita and Defense Minister Ryamizard Ryacudu said in a joint statement on Tuesday that the jets are expected to be delivered in states beginning in two years time.



    http://www.fort-russ.com/2017/08/russia-to-sell-indonesia-11-new-fighter.html

    JohninMK

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:40 pm

    Updated

    23 August, 2017 SOURCE: FlightGlobal.com BY: Greg Waldron Singapore

    Jakarta has confirmed that it will buy 11 Sukhoi Su-35 fighter aircraft for $1.14 billion, with a major component of the deal involving agricultural commodities.

    In a joint press conference, Indonesia's defence minister and trade minister stated that under the deal, Moscow will be obligated to accept 50% of the contract value in local commodities.

    Russian arms supplier Rostec and Indonesian Trading Company (PPI) have been tapped as the "technical implementers" of the transaction. The fighter sale is also subject to Indonesia's 35% offset requirement.

    The deal between Moscow and Russia was originally signed on 10 August, although Indonesia's Su-35 acquisition has been in discussion for several years.

    A range of commodities which are available for export include rubber, cocoa, coffee, textiles, tea, seafood, and other commodities. Moscow can also obtain Indonesian defence products.

    The 11 Su-35s will replace Jakarta's six Northrop F-5E fighters. Altogether, it is believed that Jakarta wants to obtain up to 16 Su-35s.

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    Rowdyhorse4

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:29 am

    People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

    I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:48 am

    Rowdyhorse4 wrote:People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

    I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....

    Both don't even compare.

    Su-35 has far longer combat range and carries a massive radar which is stupidly powerful, most powerful of most of the standard combat planes.  The Raven AESA radar has so little info on it and it barely is in service as far as anyone is concerned.  The other issue is too, that too many components from too many countries involved becomes a real hassle when it comes to maintenance and even obtaining spare parts if in case the buyer nation manages to piss off one of the makers of the subcomponents.

    Gripen is a pretty mean aircraft though, so I can see how the Su-35 and Gripen would be direct competitors to Indonesia.
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    Rowdyhorse4

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 on Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:32 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Rowdyhorse4 wrote:People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

    I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....

    Both don't even compare.

    Su-35 has far longer combat range and carries a massive radar which is stupidly powerful, most powerful of most of the standard combat planes.  The Raven AESA radar has so little info on it and it barely is in service as far as anyone is concerned.  The other issue is too, that too many components from too many countries involved becomes a real hassle when it comes to maintenance and even obtaining spare parts if in case the buyer nation manages to piss off one of the makers of the subcomponents.

    Gripen is a pretty mean aircraft though, so I can see how the Su-35 and Gripen would be direct competitors to Indonesia.

    I can see your argument is coming from....


    But muh Datalink is better than Su 35, Cheaper than Su 35, more stealthy than Su 35, Easier to maintain than Su-35, Better Avionics than Su 35, AESA better than the Ibris PESA, More Reliable Than Su 35, 3 (Or whatever fcking number Gripen Said) Su 35 downed over one Gripen Downed... etc etc etc



    you get the jist XD




    Hard to reason with these diehard Pro gripen folks....


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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:36 pm

    Rowdyhorse4 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    Rowdyhorse4 wrote:People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

    I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....

    Both don't even compare.

    Su-35 has far longer combat range and carries a massive radar which is stupidly powerful, most powerful of most of the standard combat planes.  The Raven AESA radar has so little info on it and it barely is in service as far as anyone is concerned.  The other issue is too, that too many components from too many countries involved becomes a real hassle when it comes to maintenance and even obtaining spare parts if in case the buyer nation manages to piss off one of the makers of the subcomponents.

    Gripen is a pretty mean aircraft though, so I can see how the Su-35 and Gripen would be direct competitors to Indonesia.

    I can see your argument is coming from....


    But muh Datalink is better than Su 35, Cheaper than Su 35, more stealthy than Su 35, Easier to maintain than Su-35, Better Avionics than Su 35, AESA better than the Ibris PESA, More Reliable Than  Su 35, 3 (Or whatever fcking number Gripen Said) Su 35 downed over one Gripen Downed...   etc etc etc



    you get the jist XD  




    Hard to reason with these diehard Pro gripen folks....    



    so they use marketing statements over reality.  I would argue for being better avionics, it would be a joke since Irbis-e is the most powerful fighter Radar in use. The question to ask is the Raven AESA radar - how many T/R modules and what power usage are they? Because if they are 10 - 15W range and 1,000T/R modules, it will not compete against Su-35.  T/R modules do not operate at 100% capacity at all times. Actually, rarely they do since they have high individual failure rates due to sensitivity of the components.  PESA radar doesn't have those issues, can operate at maximum power at longer intervals without burning out.  Out of an AESA radar, 10% of its modules usually die during use.  They have better resolution in some cases and EW capabilities but added pods to Su-35 actually counters the EW capabilities of AESA and compliments Irbis-E while its resolution is great due to subcomponents (processor, antenna. I hope to eventually see elbrus 4C+ (4core 2 DPS core) used, will greatly enhance performance).

    Su-35 has reduced RCS than all other Flankers due to use of composite materials.  We don't really know the exact details of its reduced RCS but some info is here and there.  Su-35 also proven its sensor fusion, I doubt Girpen had. Actually, Su-35 has proven itself compared to the competition.  The datalink one is funny since Su-35 uses AESA L band for datalink.  Does the Gripen? No. When you got components coming from 20 different countries, it isn't cheaper to maintain.
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    Rowdyhorse4

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 on Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:54 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Rowdyhorse4 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    Rowdyhorse4 wrote:People are still bitching about how indonesia should have bought the Gripen NGs over Su-35 in indonesian forums...

    I guess the Gripen Vs Su-35 war isn't over yet....

    Both don't even compare.

    Su-35 has far longer combat range and carries a massive radar which is stupidly powerful, most powerful of most of the standard combat planes.  The Raven AESA radar has so little info on it and it barely is in service as far as anyone is concerned.  The other issue is too, that too many components from too many countries involved becomes a real hassle when it comes to maintenance and even obtaining spare parts if in case the buyer nation manages to piss off one of the makers of the subcomponents.

    Gripen is a pretty mean aircraft though, so I can see how the Su-35 and Gripen would be direct competitors to Indonesia.

    I can see your argument is coming from....


    But muh Datalink is better than Su 35, Cheaper than Su 35, more stealthy than Su 35, Easier to maintain than Su-35, Better Avionics than Su 35, AESA better than the Ibris PESA, More Reliable Than  Su 35, 3 (Or whatever fcking number Gripen Said) Su 35 downed over one Gripen Downed...   etc etc etc



    you get the jist XD  




    Hard to reason with these diehard Pro gripen folks....    



    so they use marketing statements over reality.  I would argue for being better avionics, it would be a joke since Irbis-e is the most powerful fighter Radar in use. The question to ask is the Raven AESA radar - how many T/R modules and what power usage are they? Because if they are 10 - 15W range and 1,000T/R modules, it will not compete against Su-35.  T/R modules do not operate at 100% capacity at all times. Actually, rarely they do since they have high individual failure rates due to sensitivity of the components.  PESA radar doesn't have those issues, can operate at maximum power at longer intervals without burning out.  Out of an AESA radar, 10% of its modules usually die during use.  They have better resolution in some cases and EW capabilities but added pods to Su-35 actually counters the EW capabilities of AESA and compliments Irbis-E while its resolution is great due to subcomponents (processor, antenna. I hope to eventually see elbrus 4C+ (4core 2 DPS core) used, will greatly enhance performance).

    Su-35 has reduced RCS than all other Flankers due to use of composite materials.  We don't really know the exact details of its reduced RCS but some info is here and there.  Su-35 also proven its sensor fusion, I doubt Girpen had. Actually, Su-35 has proven itself compared to the competition.  The datalink one is funny since Su-35 uses AESA L band for datalink.  Does the Gripen? No.  When you got components coming from 20 different countries, it isn't cheaper to maintain.

    Where does the Su 35 gets a AESA L-band?!
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:24 am





    It is on the wings. Essentially, for IFF and other such stuff, not for tracking/scanning as far as we are aware.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:51 am

    Western sources believe they are for IFF purposes because they operate in the same frequency as the NATO Link 16 datalink network.

    The Su-35 is not an Elint aircraft or AWACS, it is a fighter interceptor designed to engage western fighters including stealth aircraft...

    Rather large and complex and expensive to be an IFF system...

    And why bother with an AESA array if it is just for IFF?

    Generally IFF are non directional.

    This is no an IFF system... it is a radar for X band stealth aircraft.


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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:05 am

    That part in not sure about. I know little of the AESA elements used for the L band unit on this aircraft but I'm assuming they are more on the side between the wings and the body, and thus may not be ideal for detecting jets simply be a use they are not facing forward but on sides (creating a blind spot right dead center of cockpit/nose). I mean, it could be used to scan areas within the frontal view of the aircraft, giving it some eyesight to the possibility of enemy jets nearby. But the other issue is they aren't cooled by liquid cooling but by passive, meaning the power input/output won't be great, or be very minimal. So that brings into question about its intended use.

    Although, it would be smart to have that. One rumor I was never able to get an answer about, so hopefully someone can, was that zaslon radar used on the later models of MiG-31 used an L band transceiver that allowed it to scan long distances for very low RCS targets, and that is how it gained its anti ballistic missile and cruise missile capabilities (since that was one of its intended use). So I don't doubt it.

    But since there is little info, wouldn't the Russians be worried of China and Indonesia, etc having that tech and then disclosing it? If that is the case, then the AESA elements may not be on the export aircraft.
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    Rowdyhorse4

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:36 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:That part in not sure about. I know little of the AESA elements used for the L band unit on this aircraft but I'm assuming they are more on the side between the wings and the body, and thus may not be ideal for detecting jets simply be a use they are not facing forward but on sides (creating a blind spot right dead center of cockpit/nose).  I mean, it could be used to scan areas within the frontal view of the aircraft, giving it some eyesight to the possibility of enemy jets nearby. But the other issue is they aren't cooled by liquid cooling but by passive, meaning the power input/output won't be great, or be very minimal. So that brings into question about its intended use.

    Although, it would be smart to have that. One rumor I was never able to get an answer about, so hopefully someone can, was that zaslon radar used on the later models of MiG-31 used an L band transceiver that allowed it to scan long distances for very low RCS targets, and that is how it gained its anti ballistic missile and cruise missile capabilities (since that was one of its intended use).  So I don't doubt it.

    But since there is little info, wouldn't the Russians be worried of China and Indonesia, etc having that tech and then disclosing it? If that is the case, then the AESA elements may not be on the export aircraft.

    Indonesia....

    May be a liability...
    We are as a doctrine a Neutral nation operation both US and USSR/Russian Equipment in tandem (We try merge it sometimes?)

    But we might (most likely) have sympathizers to one faction in the armed forces and politics so thats where the US DIA or RF GRU might find some holes....

    Still nice to get Su 35s to complement our existing F-16s and Su-27/30s







    In Regards to the L-band...
    My Russian friend says that is has to be large so they could utilize Narrow Beams for IFF without getting detected or sniffed by enemy ELINT or RWR....

    Remember that IFF needs Radar to operate...
    Also that the L-Band Might POTENTIALLY also be where the Su-35s get D-Link Connection to External Battle Management Systems (Like AWACS, Ground control or Sigma on a Russian capital ship)...
    Large size more room and larger Angle as well....

    basically potentially a Russian LINK 16....

    Power output however is too small to be utilized as an Anti Stealth Radar (the high Power output would defeat its purpose in avoiding ELINT or RWR in IFF mode)

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:59 pm

    Having AESA L band modules as just a datalink is overkill. Even Gefast & T upgrade for older jets gives it a datalink structure similar to that of NATO's Link 16 with using a lot of current sensors already onboard the old jets. There is indeed more to the AESA L Band modules than we know of, but as I said, they are uncooled so the power input/output wont be all that great. If it could be used for scanning, it can, just not at very long ranges of course.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:53 am

    Just read an article in Air International by Piotr Butowski about the Su-57 and he pretty much stated that the L band radar was to detect the presence of stealth aircraft at long range.

    There are two L band antennas fitted... that operate from 300mm to 150mm in wavelength.

    Use of L-band radar in air-to-air mode is the T-50’s main means of dealing with stealth targets, which may be detected (but not targeted) by radio waves longer than the X-band for which the radar cross-section’s reduction is typically optimised.


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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:52 am

    The offset deals



    It's now on our side. whether we are willing to fund the necessary upgrades in our facilities. the NTP is private company meaning they're concerned about profit and may not willing to improve their facility, given the small number of flankers we have. Thus they need to be state funded. APP is pulp and paper factory, meaning they will have to invest in whole new industrial base.
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    Rowdyhorse4

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 Yesterday at 6:58 pm

    "within the $1.14 billion expected deal for 11 Sukhoi jets, around $570 million will be paid for in Indonesian commodity exports such as palm oil, tea, and coffee, with around $400 million sourced through an offset program, and the remaining paid for through cash."

    https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/indonesia-russia-ink-defense-protocol-amid-fighter-jet-deal/
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    Rowdyhorse4

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

    Post  Rowdyhorse4 Yesterday at 7:12 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:The offset deals



    It's now on our side. whether we are willing to fund the necessary upgrades in our facilities. the NTP is private company meaning they're concerned about profit and may not willing to improve their facility, given the small number of flankers we have. Thus they need to be state funded.  APP is pulp and paper factory, meaning they will have to invest in whole new industrial base.

    btw got the source for that picture?

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    Re: Russia - Indonesia arms contracts

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