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    New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

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    GarryB

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:50 am

    Garry B, the calculus about volume is very basic but is well done. I have not trouble to explain it.

    0.057m=57mm
    0.3m=300mm

    m=meter
    mm=milimeter
    m3=cubic meter

    0.057x0.057x0.3m3 is the volume of a prisma with a square basis of 57mm of side, and height of 300mm. This prisma is able to include inside every round of 57mm with 300mm or less of lenght. It is an approximation to the volune of one projectile of 57mm by excess.

    0.057x0.057x0.3x940=0.916m3 is an approximation by excess of the volume of 940 projectiles of 57x300.

    For ammunition of 57x350mm it would be:

    0.057x0.057x0.35x940=1.069m3

    Well part of the problem is that a 57mm round is not a rectangle shape and will not fit inside the rectangle shape you describe.

    The 57mm shell is more like 80mm square due to the shell case being a rather larger calibre than the projectile which you are using as a basis.

    A comparison would be to describe the 5.56mm NATO round as being 5.56mm square and 45mm long... it is clearly not either of those things.

    The 57 x 347mm dimensions of the round describe the diameter of the projectile (57mm) and the length of the shell case (347mm). That totally ignores the diameter of the whole round... ie the shell case and also the added length of the projectile that adds to the length of the entire round of ammo.

    The length of the entire round is 536mm for the navy 57mm shell and looking at the photo I posted above the shell case diameter is more like 80mm using the calibre of the 40mm round sitting next to it.

    Assuming no belt mechanism between rounds in the ammo handling system that would be needed to move the rounds from the ammo mag to the gun to fire the rounds then we are talking about 80mm square rectangles that are .54m long... so .08 x .08 x .54 x 940 = which is more like 3.2 cubic metres... and that is without the ammo handling system to move them to the gun and load them...

    BTW 940 rounds would be just under 6 tons in weight too...


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    Rmf

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Rmf on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:11 pm

    300 rd/minute ,thats 5 rds / sec. just 1 sec burst - 5 guided rounds should make 100% certain kill on any target within 6km.
    usually laser gets rounds close to the target ,then proximity radio fuse in the round does the rest ,so you dont have to make a contact every time to achieve a kill.
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:25 pm

    80mm cases for 57mm ammunition? Sincerly, if a case of 80mm is needed, better to make it 76mm ammunition. This is what has been done the last decades. For calibers of this size or bigger, I only see cases with a 40% plus of diameter in ammunition of 50+ years old (maybe 60+).

    But even 3m3 seems not too much in a platform that allows to move 8 passengers (+3 of the crew).

    The calculus that I did, was an approximation by excess generous enough to allow cases a little bigger than 57mm, if the ammunition is properly stored. The calculus of this approximation it is not the configuration for minimum space storage, only it is an easy and useful approximation.
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    GarryB

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:57 am

    300 rd/minute ,thats 5 rds / sec. just 1 sec burst - 5 guided rounds should make 100% certain kill on any target within 6km.
    usually laser gets rounds close to the target ,then proximity radio fuse in the round does the rest ,so you dont have to make a contact every time to achieve a kill.

    exactly... 300rpm is actually wastefully high...

    80mm cases for 57mm ammunition? Sincerly, if a case of 80mm is needed, better to make it 76mm ammunition. This is what has been done the last decades. For calibers of this size or bigger, I only see cases with a 40% plus of diameter in ammunition of 50+ years old (maybe 60+).

    For anti armour and anti aircraft use a large shell case provides lots of propellant... which is needed for high velocity.

    You can make it a 76mm round but then the performance of the APFSDS round will be pathetic and its surface to air performance will also be mediocre.

    The shell case capacity is what gives it the volume to allow for long rounds of guided projectiles while still having space for propellant to make it useful.

    But even 3m3 seems not too much in a platform that allows to move 8 passengers (+3 of the crew).

    3 cubic metres is shells only... it does not include the mechanism for loading and moving the ammo from where it is stored to the gun.

    The calculus of this approximation it is not the configuration for minimum space storage, only it is an easy and useful approximation.

    I know. The real space requirement is much much bigger...


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:47 pm

    Let me see one model of ammunition over 50mm designed by the Soviet Union/Russia after 1970 that has a 40% bigger diameter in the case than the nominal measure of the ammunition.

    Of course, old ammunition is fired still (by old artillery pieces), but new designs are not done by this way. Today's propellants need not it.

    Also I want to remember you that it is not the same to leave ammunition in a storage depot for 25 years (the ammunition needs protection), than to put ammunition inside the artillery vehicle for fast use. In the second case the volumes are far better optimized.

    It is curious to me to see how you was not able to understand the easy calculus at the first moment, which obviously means that you have low mathematical skills, and still you are assuring that "the real space requirement is much much bigger". It is amazing coming from a person that is not able to identify the volume of a prisma, and that is not fluent with the use of the units of the SI.
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:52 pm

    It is curious to me to see how you was not able to understand the easy calculus at the first moment, which obviously means that you have low mathematical skills, and still you are assuring that "the real space requirement is much much bigger". It is amazing coming from a person that is not able to identify the volume of a prisma, and that is not fluent with the use of the units of the SI.

    I understand your method, just your application baffled me.

    To put it in terms of small arms ammo what you were saying is that a 7.62x39mm cartridge should stack perfectly vertically and assuming 7.62mm square with a length of 39mm then the volume of an AK magazine must be 39mm long, 7.62mm wide and 7.62 x 30 tall... and I will give you a hint... an AK mag is rather larger because it has walls to contain ammo, and the spring used to push the rounds up into the mechanism into the rifle makes the magazine longer. More importantly the sides of the round are not parallel so the magazine has to be curved, and of course the biggest problem is that AK rounds are not 39mm long.

    BTW the term prism generally applies to an object used to refract light and has a triangular cross section.

    Let me see one model of ammunition over 50mm designed by the Soviet Union/Russia after 1970 that has a 40% bigger diameter in the case than the nominal measure of the ammunition.

    What model of ammo over 50mm was developed after 1970 in the Soviet Union or Russia?


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:50 am



    No, no ,no, I said clearly over 50mm, nothing about 7.62mm... you have a generous range of big calibers to find...

    So you are not able to find a single model of ammunition over 50mm designed by the Soviet Union/Russia after 1970 that has a 40% bigger diameter in the case than the nominal measure of the ammunition.

    I'm not surprised. Again, like in the case of the rate of fire you are taking very old things as model of what can be done today, only because it was done this way in the 1950s.
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:33 am


    No, no ,no, I said clearly over 50mm, nothing about 7.62mm... you have a generous range of big calibers to find...

    No there isn't a generous range of rounds developed after the 1970s in calibre larger than 50mm that are high velocity anti armour rounds.

    there are low velocity 57mm grenades that have not entered service, there is the low velocity 100mm round designed for the BMP-3s 100mm rifled gun... and not much else.

    The high velocity tank ammo in 125mm calibre are rather like telescoped ammo in that the primary propellent charge isn't larger calibre so it can be stored in the same compartments as the ammo itself and the extra propellent is carried by wrapping it around the small calibre APFSDS projectile to get the velocity needed.

    AFAIK the 57mm ammo being used for the new vehicles as an anti armour and anti aircraft round is based on the 57mm round above, which competed with a telescoped 45mm round... which lost on the grounds that the smaller calibre round has a much more compact case so it had less room for guided and other special ammo.

    This suggests that the new 57mm round likely has a similar shell case, though perhaps they will have made it fully semi rimmed and a more cylindrical case so the empty case can be ejected forward from the firing mechanism...

    So you are not able to find a single model of ammunition over 50mm designed by the Soviet Union/Russia after 1970 that has a 40% bigger diameter in the case than the nominal measure of the ammunition.

    I am not able to find a single model of ammunition over 50mm in calibre designed by the Soviet Union or Russia after 1970 that is designed to penetrate armour... ie high velocity ammo at all, let alone one with straight walled sides.

    NOTE if you look at the cross section of the old 57mm shell with the guided round fitted the round actually fills the entire shell case back to the rear end... so if you made the shell 57mm in diameter then there would be no room at all for any propellant...

    Again, like in the case of the rate of fire you are taking very old things as model of what can be done today, only because it was done this way in the 1950s.

    And you seem to be under the belief that if something can be done it should be done... can you please explain why GPMGs don't fire much more than the 600rpm that medium machine guns fired at during WWI. Is it possibly that rate of fire is not that important against ground targets and is actually rather wasteful of ammo?

    Just look at anti aircraft mounts of the Soviet Maxim MMG.... where a higher rate of fire was needed they simply created an anti aircraft mount that had four guns with one aiming sight fitted.

    The other way would be to have a much higher rate of fire, which wastes ammo for most uses except anti aircraft use.


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:31 am

    The range is open to ammunition used by land, sea and air forces, and is as big as this:

    125mm
    122mm
    152mm
    120mm
    130mm
    100mm
    82mm
    76mm
    57mm
    203mm
    240mm

    even you can try with mrls rockets or everything else over 50mm you want...

    122mm
    220mm
    300mm

    All the ammunition of 125mm used by the Russian tanks and anti-tank artillery, including high speed and antiarmor ammunition, has been designed after 1970...
    Almost all the guided ammunition of all calibers used today has been designed after 1970...

    No excuses... the casing of the ammunition of the biggest calibers designed at least in the last 45 years are of about the same diameter of the nominal measure of the ammunition, not a 40% bigger in diameter...

    If you find some exception post them...
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:29 am

    125mm
    122mm
    152mm
    120mm
    130mm
    100mm
    82mm
    76mm
    57mm
    203mm
    240mm

    Nothing in any of those calibres has been developed since the 1970s...

    even you can try with mrls rockets or everything else over 50mm you want...

    122mm
    220mm
    300mm

    Rockets don't have shell cases...

    All the ammunition of 125mm used by the Russian tanks and anti-tank artillery, including high speed and antiarmor ammunition, has been designed after 1970...
    Almost all the guided ammunition of all calibers used today has been designed after 1970...

    125mm gun ammo uses a stub shell case and is considered caseless ammo.

    It was first used in the T-64 tank in the mid 1960s. There have been variations of the gun produced since but no fundamental changes... and it is considered a caseless round using two part ammo.

    No excuses... the casing of the ammunition of the biggest calibers designed at least in the last 45 years are of about the same diameter of the nominal measure of the ammunition, not a 40% bigger in diameter...

    The only round that could possibly apply to is the 120mm western tank round... the others don't use conventional shell cases.


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:33 am

    You are proving yourself why your comment about 80mm cases for modern 57mm ammunition is way off, and why my stimation for the volume of 57mm ammunition was not wrong.

    Note that the production of the 2A46 weapon begins in 1970, and the production of the previous 2A26 in 1968. Most of the 125mm ammunition was designed in the 1970s.

    Nothing else to say.


    Last edited by eehnie on Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:03 am

    The 57mm round is based on the old round... if they reduce the diameter of the shell case to the diameter of the calibre then there wont be any room for propellant unless the rounds are a metre long.


    Assuming a shell case that equals the diameter of the calibre is just dumb... in the competition the 45mm round was revealed to be a telescoped case round while the 57mm round was based on an existing round... the 57mm round was selected because the projectiles are larger and have more capacity for different payload types.

    For the same reason during WWII the T-34 entered service with a medium pressure 76.2mm gun instead of the competition which was a high velocity 57mm gun with much better armour penetration performance. The 76.2mm gun had better penetration at longer ranges but had a much more effective HE shell.

    I suspect the result was no different comparing the 45mm and 57mm rounds.


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Rmf on Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:18 pm

    57mm round has to be very fast over 1km/s , so it will have a big propellant charge ,and casing will be big by default.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  kopyo-21 on Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:11 am

    You can find the rim diameter, projectile weigh, muzzle velocity of many ammunitions in this link here

    The 57mm Soviet S-60 cartridge is much shorter (for higher rpm) and bigger (to keep volume of powder) than 57mm Bofors's. Like 40mm CTA situation, their big body diameter will take more volume that leads to less rounds than smaller ones like Bofors 57mm round in the same ammunition box.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Austin on Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:04 am

    "Terminator 3" will receive two powerful 57-mm automatic gun
    The latest fighting vehicle fire support "Terminator 3" based on heavy tracked "Armata" platform will receive as the main armament just two 57-mm automatic cannon.

    Information about this is available in the blog of the famous Russian historian and expert Alexei Hlopotova tank. He, in turn, as a primary source refers to the book "Ural Railway Car Plant 80 years" S.V.Ustyantseva.
    Also doubles powerful 57-mm guns, advanced anti-tank guided missiles will be installed in "Terminator 3". Perhaps it is a third-generation products, which operate on the principle of "shot - forgot", ie, have a homing systems.
     Military experts ambiguously received this information, there is the opinion that weapons of "Terminator 3" is redundant and one 57-mm gun on the combat unit "Baikal" type would be enough. In any case, the new version of the combat vehicle fire support firepower will not be equal.


    http://vpk-news.ru/news/33827Подробнее: http://vpk-news.ru/news/33827
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    GarryB

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:51 am

    I actually think that the model shown of the BMPT based on armata with a 120mm smoothbore gun/mortar plus a 23mm 6 barrel gatling gun and a 40mm or 57mm long barrel grenade launcher would be the ideal armament for BMPT-3

    In the past the vehicles used in the role have been anti aircraft guns with devastating instant fire power in 23mm or 30mm high rate of fire cannon... the vehicle I mention above can match that with the 23mm gatling alone... 10,000-12,000 rpm with a low velocity heavy projectile in a small compact round slightly bigger than HMG ammo... for other targets direct fire and also guided 120mm and 122mm rounds and missiles with low velocity 40mm or 57mm rounds offers an all round package of heavy HE fire power and direct fire and indirect fire weapons for a range of targets.

    Regarding using two 57mm guns the weight and space to fit two guns does not really justify the moderate increase in rate of fire.

    Each gun will likely fire at about 300 rpm so two guns you get 600rpm but a lot more vibration and recoil which would upset long range accuracy to the point of making it useless. 4 or 5 shells per second hitting a target in 57mm calibre would be devastating on their own... a single round direct hit with a guided shell would be even more devastating to most targets.

    The size of the rounds means a standard HE shell could be fitted with a very accurate time fuse meaning a single round could be detonated amongst a group of enemy swarm UAVs damaging or destroying them all... tiny UAVs will be fragile little things remember...

    the saving of removing the second 57mm gun means a weapon like a low velocity grenade launcher (57mm or 40mm) could be added to allow a much wider range of targets to be engaged with low velocity rounds... even a 23mm gatling... or even a twin barrel 30mm cannon or 23mm cannon.


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:43 am

    As I was defending here before the new, a 57-2 or a 57-4 configuration is logical. Russia will not waste an armata platform for only a 57mm weapon. If there is interest in this weapon, for sure the configuration used will not be weaker than what they did in the past, and the 57-2 was proved with the ZSU-57-2 a lot of decades ago.

    This type of weapons have been used not only for air defense roles, also in infantry roles, even in urban environments, and here a good rate of fire is needed for a fast reaction. The rate of fire of the 57mm baikal cannon (120 in 57-1 configuration) is just above of the ZSU-57-2. It would not be bad if it is improved, especially if Russia is planing, like it seems, the replacement of 30mm weapons by 57mm weapons in some types of warfare.

    http://www.burevestnik.com/products_engl/au220m.html

    It would be very interesting a land application of this (57-2?):

    http://www.burevestnik.com/products_engl/1.html

    To have guided ammunition, of course is a must, but also cheaper ammunition can be used like for other calibers.

    With a 57-2 configuration, surely the armata platform has been selected by the amount of ammunition that can carry, not by mechanical requirements, but at same time an armata platform must have fire power enough.
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:31 pm

    Its the experience of SAA that is valuable. They were modifying tanks to use S-60 and found them very effective during combat.

    I think 2 on Armata is a little over kill but hey, why not? A system such as that with anti tank/anti air missiles is ideal.

    Curious though which ATGM's they may use in future? Hermes isn't out or tested yet.
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:49 am

    I see a good number of comments deleted.

    Not sure what you mean...

    As I was defending here before the new, a 57-2 or a 57-4 configuration is logical. Russia will not waste an armata platform for only a 57mm weapon. If there is interest in this weapon, for sure the configuration used will not be weaker than what they did in the past, and the 57-2 was proved with the ZSU-57-2 a lot of decades ago.

    The twin gun arrangement was used to maximise the rate of fire because having only rate of fire to hit a target that is manouvering means the more shots you can put up at a time the better your chances.

    The guns use a four round clip so rate of fire is limited anyway.

    In the case of an IFV or air defence (SPAAG) or indeed tank support (BMPT) vehicle version of of all the new vehicle families it makes sense to have just one gun and more ammo because dumb ammo and pure rate of fire wont make sense against very many standard targets.

    Accuracy and guided shells are what make them valuable at battlefield ranges... which an extra barrel in the turret would reduce rather than improve.

    To have guided ammunition, of course is a must, but also cheaper ammunition can be used like for other calibers.

    It would be cheaper and easier to fire one or two guided shells than to plaster the area with dozens of shells to try to get a hit...

    Curious though which ATGM's they may use in future? Hermes isn't out or tested yet.

    Well Krisantema and Kornet-EM are in production and service... they also seem to be developing a new fire and forget model now too which would be interesting too...


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  kopyo-21 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:28 pm

    I think the reason to install 2 S60 57mm guns on Terminator-3 is the same with what they have done on BMPT-1/2 with 2 30mm 2A42 guns. One gun fires HE rounds and the other fires KE rounds. The double guns also increase gun survivability in different tough battlefield conditions.
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:20 am

    They fitted two 30mm cannon to the BMPT on the T-72/90 chassis because of the low rate of fire of the 2A42 cannon.

    Because the two guns were located so close together there was not enough room for the normal two feed belt system so one gun fired HE shells and one fired AP rounds.

    Ironically this means that both guns cannot fire at one target when using high velocity sabot rounds because the ballistic trajectory of the APDS rounds is completely different from the standard full calibre HE rounds and the two guns don't seem to be able to elevate independently.

    This means both guns aim at the same target so both rounds must have the same ballistic characteristics to hit that target.

    A new vehicle armed with 57mm calibre ammo would rather more greatly benefit from a dual or even triple feed system that allows 2 or 3 or more different ammo types to be ready to feed into the gun with the push of a button.

    Firing at about 300 rounds per minute a single barrel gun would be able to put up 5 shells in a single second burst... for most targets that is plenty of shell fragments to ruin someones day.

    Against point targets with guided shells it is more about guidance channels than rate of fire... a high rate of fire just means more guided shells hitting each target at a time.

    If they use laser homing shells each vehicle can mark one or more targets and fire a shell at each target being marked at once. With laser beam homing you are pretty much limited to however many laser beams you can point around the place... the latter being the most low emission and the hardest to deal with in terms of countermeasures.

    I would expect any new vehicle to be a hybrid with both a gun and missiles... having two guns leaves little space for missiles or multiple ammo feed systems to load those guns.... let alone optics and radar and other sensors likely to be fitted as standard.


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:44 pm

    Between the publicly known projects of future equipment of Russia, with the Atom project of IFV, this is the project that is making me doubt most. The Atom project of IFV was fairly above the current Russian standards, but would be a little redudant with the Bumerang platform, then I understand to be not adopted.

    Like it is now, this project called Terminator 3, would follow the military concept of the ZSU-23-4 and the ZSU-57-2, that I do not consider obsolete as military concept. Obviously the previous models in this military concept are marking the floor of what we can expect of a successor of these weapons. Nothing under what was done decades ago will be accepted now. A 57-2 configuration can be just in the low limit of what I would expect to be accepted, looking at the rest of the recent projects of Russia. Habitually Russia wants a more evident improvement of the new weapons over the old weapons (one example of what I mean is what happened with the AK-104 that leaded to the development of the AK-12, then the AK-104 was obviously an improvement over the AK-74, but not enough for a new generation of weapons in Russia).

    At same time, this project has an interesting potential in the development of new weapons being addapted to the military concept of the SA-22 Pantsir, with the addition of a modern missile system. Likely a nice solution for the next generation of armament to be launched after 2025.

    Without missiles, I would not expect to be adopted something under a 45-4 configuration (the 45mm caliber has a future in the aerial and anti-aerial equipment), or a 57-2 configuration, with a very improved weapon that reflects the improvement of the last 60 years, since the development of the ZSU-57-2.

    Note that I see other projects clearly under the current Russian standards for new equipment, and as consequence only viable to export. This project would be above them.

    kopyo-21

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  kopyo-21 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:09 am

    I suspect they use 2 2A42 gun due to the limitation of gun turret design rather than they want to increase the rate of fire. Even firing 200-300 rpm in the low rate of fire mode is still enough to cope with ground target.

    Actually the muzzle velocity of HE rounds (960m/s) is quite the same with AP rounds (970m/s) so they want, they still can use both gun simultaneously to attack 1 target.
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    GarryB

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:13 am

    Between the publicly known projects of future equipment of Russia, with the Atom project of IFV, this is the project that is making me doubt most. The Atom project of IFV was fairly above the current Russian standards, but would be a little redudant with the Bumerang platform, then I understand to be not adopted.

    Not sure what you mean by above Russian standards... all we could see was a prototype and external only view at that.

    To be honest I think it was well below Russian standards... there was no ERA, there was no APS, and there were not ATGM options present.

    AFAIK the ATOM was a combination of a French vehicle with a Russian turret and was only ever intended for export to countries that used French armour but wanted some decent fire power.

    Like it is now, this project called Terminator 3, would follow the military concept of the ZSU-23-4 and the ZSU-57-2, that I do not consider obsolete as military concept.

    The whole purpose behind the BMPT concept is high fire power in a well armoured platform. In the past anti aircraft vehicles have been used because of their devastating fire power but their poor armour has been a serious weakness. The BMPT is supposed to fix that with anti aircraft level fire power with tank level protection by being based on a tank chassis.

    A 57-2 configuration can be just in the low limit of what I would expect to be accepted, looking at the rest of the recent projects of Russia.

    We need to clarify that we are talking about several different vehicles here... the BMPT is a tank support vehicle, they are talking about a 57mm gun for air defence and also for IFVs...

    In the past air defence vehicles have been used in the BMPT role because of their fire power... indeed most of their gun based anti aircraft vehicles were fully dual role for ground to air fire and ground to ground fire for suppressing enemy forces.

    In their future armoured forces the new 57mm gun will be a standard weapon on their IFVs as enemy IFVs will require something rather more powerful than a 30mm cannon to penetrate them.
    It will also replace the 30mm cannon in the air defence role with cheap guided shells offering a much higher PK rate against very small targets.

    It may also be used on a BMPT but then it might not.

    We have seen a design of BMPT with a 120mm gun/mortar main gun with a turret mounted gatling gun like the 23 x 115mm cannon on the MiG-31.

    Such weapons would be devastating to enemy ground forces... and when supporting tanks would easily be enough fire power to deal with almost any problem.

    Habitually Russia wants a more evident improvement of the new weapons over the old weapons (one example of what I mean is what happened with the AK-104 that leaded to the development of the AK-12, then the AK-104 was obviously an improvement over the AK-74, but not enough for a new generation of weapons in Russia).

    ??? the AK-104 is the carbine version of the AK-74M... would be carried by VDV and special forces and tank crew instead of the shorter barrelled AKS-74U.

    Without missiles, I would not expect to be adopted something under a 45-4 configuration (the 45mm caliber has a future in the aerial and anti-aerial equipment), or a 57-2 configuration, with a very improved weapon that reflects the improvement of the last 60 years, since the development of the ZSU-57-2.

    The 45mm calibre seems to have failed. It would not make sense to introduce a 45mm calibre AND a 57mm calibre round... they are not really different enough to warrant the cost and added complexity of two different systems.

    I suspect they use 2 2A42 gun due to the limitation of gun turret design rather than they want to increase the rate of fire. Even firing 200-300 rpm in the low rate of fire mode is still enough to cope with ground target.

    The turret was specifically designed for the vehicle to offer little to aim for from the front... ie almost external mounted guns with a turret that does not protrude much.

    The idea of the vehicle is to deliver intense fire power on specific targets... previously they used anti aircraft vehicles for this very reason.

    If they were going to just use one cannon then a BMP-2 is already in service... transfer its turret to a T-72 chassis.

    In many ways what they want is a powerful IFV armament on a tank platform... IFVs generally have the fire power to deal with infantry already.

    Actually the muzzle velocity of HE rounds (960m/s) is quite the same with AP rounds (970m/s) so they want, they still can use both gun simultaneously to attack 1 target.

    Only with standard AP and HEI rounds... trajectory is related to how streamlined the rounds are... the HEI is a 388 gramme projectile moving at 960m/s, while the AP round is a full calibre round that is 400 grammes moving at 970m/s. Ballistics will be similar, but against proper armoured targets you will want to use the APDS round which is a sub calibre round with less drag weighing about 305 grammes and moving at 1,120m/s... lighter and with less drag and moving faster its trajectory will be quite different to the other rounds.


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    kopyo-21

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  kopyo-21 on Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:53 am

    The 2A42 gun in fast firing mode of 550 rpm produces a lot of smoke inside the BMP-2 hull so that may be one of reasons they designed a new turret with the guns completely in outside for BMPT.

    I still think that the 2 guns are for firing 2 types of round, not for higher rate of fire because 550 rpm is too enough for ground and moving ground targest. Rate of fire of Bushmaster MK44 30mm gun is just 100/200 rpm up to firing mode.

    Regarding to S60 57mm gun, I don't know if they can redesign it to have dual-feed like Italy Breda did with licensed Bofors fast forty gun? In that case they need only one gun instead of 2 for BMPT-3.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

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