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    New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

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    GarryB

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:23 am

    I think 140 is a little less amount ammo considering the RoF

    You are clearly not familiar with Anti aircraft gun systems...

    The Shilka carries about 2,000 rounds of ready to fire ammo but each of the four cannon fire 1,000 rpm... meaning 30 seconds of ready to fire ammo.

    Tunguska has a similar amount of ammo on board but each of the two twin barrel 30mm cannon fire between 2,000 and 2,500 rpm.

    A paper rate of fire of 120rpm means 140 rounds would last more than one minute if it ever fired continuously... which it wont.

    The barrel would melt and droop.

    With modern fire control system and air burst shells and guided shells a shell or three would be fired and the results assessed... against many targets that would be enough.

    Like the 2S31, the 2S38 seems also an artillery piece to export.

    This is a high velocity anti armour gun, not artillery... and fitting it to a BMD chassis means airborne or naval infantry while its potential for anti aircraft use also suggests Aerospace Defence Force use too.


    Ignore the vehicle chassis platform... we are talking about a new modular turret system for AA use or possible anti armour use or both.

    This is potentially a new IFV turret, or a new SPAAG turret or possibly both... though I would expect the new SPAAG turret to have radar sensors too.


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    eehnie

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:30 pm

    GarryB, the 2S38 is not an artillery piece? I think you need to remember what the designation 2S38 means.

    Being on the BMD-4M platform would be a different piece of air defense artillery with a different designation. Then it would have some chance if the weapon is good enough.
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    robognus

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  robognus on Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:25 pm

    Малокалиберный управляемый снаряд аэродинамической схемы "утка"

    Открытое акционерное общество "Конструкторское Бюро точного машиностроения имени А.Э. Нудельмана" (RU)



    Полезная модель относится к области вооружения, в частности к области малокалиберных управляемых снарядов калибра 40...60 мм, выполненных по аэродинамической схеме «утка».

    Малокалиберный управляемый снаряд аэродинамической схемы «утка» содержит подвижный носовой обтекатель, установленный на шаровой или карданный подвес, и управляющий привод. На подвижном носовом обтекателе установлены четыре неподвижные взаимно перпендикулярные аэродинамические плоскости, причем управляющий привод носового обтекателя выполнен электромеханическим, а место установки шарнирного подвеса выбирается из условия минимизации аэродинамического шарнирного момента.

    Предлагаемое техническое решение позволяет повысить эффективность управления малокалиберным снарядом за счет улучшения аэродинамических управляющих характеристик снаряда с подвижным носовым обтекателем с четырьмя аэродинамическими плоскостями и увеличенными углами отклонения, обеспечиваемыми электромагнитным приводом. Одновременно достигается снижение веса и габаритов привода по сравнению с вариантом привода с раскрывающимися после выстрела рулями, при этом, по сравнению с традиционными рулевыми поверхностями, углы отклонения которых достигают 15°...20°, что, как следствие, приводит к росту их индуктивного сопротивления, пропорционального квадрату угла отклонения. Предлагаемое техническое решение обладает существенным преимуществом в части уменьшения лобового сопротивления.

    Фиг.1.

    Полезная модель относится к области вооружения, в частности к области малокалиберных управляемых снарядов калибра 40...60 мм, выполненных по аэродинамической схеме «утка».

    Известен управляемый снаряд по аэродинамической схеме "утка", содержащий систему управления и рулевой привод с рулями, расположенными на носовой конической части корпуса снаряда (патент RU 2100766, МКИ F42B 15). Недостатком являются выступающие за габариты калибра снаряда рули, что не позволяет использовать его для стрельбы из артиллерийской пушки.

    Известен управляемый снаряд аэродинамической схемы «утка», выстреливаемый из артиллерийской пушки, содержащий сложенные внутрь блока рулевого привода рули, раскрывающиеся после выхода снаряда из ствола (Патент РФ 2237598, МКИ F42В 10/20, В64С 13). Недостатком известного устройства является сложный механизм раскрытия рулей, который должен выдерживать большие стартовые перегрузки снаряда, выстреливаемого из ствола артиллерийской пушки.

    Известен выстреливаемый из артиллерийской пушки малокалиберный управляемый снаряд, разработанный по программе BLAM (Barrel Launched Adaptive Munition - «Адаптивные боеприпасы, запускаемые из ствола»), см. «История создания и тенденции развития современных боеприпасов и взрывателей», Р.Н. Акиншин, В.Г. Дмитриев и др., издательство МГТУ им. Н.Э. Баумана, 2013 г., стр.14-15. Управляемый снаряд содержит подвижный носовой обтекатель, установленный на шаровой подвес, и пьезоэлектрический привод. Управление снарядом осуществляется за счет отклонения в желаемую сторону на малые углы носового обтекателя (наконечника) снаряда. Носовой наконечник опирается на шар, выполняющий роль шарнирной шаровой опоры, а для привода наконечника применяются несколько пьезокерамических стержней, расположенных по кругу почти параллельно оси снаряда. Меняя свою длину, в зависимости от подаваемого на них напряжения, они отклоняют наконечник снаряда на нужный угол и с нужной частотой. Пьезоэлектрический привод обеспечивает отклонение носового наконечника на максимальный угол до ±0,12°, достаточный для управления малокалиберным снарядом калибра 20 мм на сверхзвуковой скорости 2М...5М.

    Использование отклонения носового наконечника на малые углы, обеспечиваемые пьезоэлектрическим приводом, эффективно для малогабаритных снарядов калибра 20...32 мм с диапазоном скоростей М=(2...5) Мах (650...1650 м/с). Малокалиберные снаряды калибра 40...62 мм имеют больший вес и аэродинамическое сопротивление, и как следствие более низкую скорость на конечном участке управления, поэтому небольшого отклонения поверхности подвижного носового обтекателя и малых углов его отклонения недостаточно для эффективного управления среднекалиберным снарядом в диапазоне скоростей от М=0,8 до М=3 Мах (250...1000 м/с).

    Целью создания полезной модели является обеспечение эффективного управления малокалиберным управляемым снарядом калибра 40...62 мм в широком диапазоне скоростей М=(0,8...3,0) Мах.

    Это достигается тем, что в малокалиберном управляемом снаряде, выполненном по аэродинамической схеме «утка», содержащем подвижный носовой обтекатель, установленный на шаровом или карданном шарнирном подвесе, и управляющий привод, в нем на подвижном носовом обтекателе установлены четыре неподвижных взаимно перпендикулярных аэродинамических плоскости, а привод носового обтекателя выполнен электромеханическим. При этом шарнирный подвес устанавливается в подвижном носовом обтекателе таким образом, чтобы обеспечить приемлемый уровень аэродинамического шарнирного момента во всем рабочем диапазоне скоростей.

    Данное техническое решение поясняется чертежом фиг. 1.

    На фиг. 1 изображена головная часть управляемого снаряда по аэродинамической схеме "утка", содержащая:

    1 - корпус снаряда;

    2 - подвижный носовой обтекатель. Подвижный носовой обтекатель, например, конической формы с аэродинамическими плоскостями 4 имеет мидель, не превышающий 0,8...0,9 калибра снаряда 1, максимальное угловое отклонение ±(2...3)°;

    3 - шаровой шарнирный подвес. Шаровой подвес может быть заменен на равноценный карданный шарнирный подвес.

    4 - четыре взаимно перпендикулярные аэродинамические плоскости, неподвижно закрепленные на носовом обтекателе 2;

    4 - электромеханический управляющий привод, например, выполненный с кольцевым постоянным магнитом, управляющими соленоидами и магниторезистивным датчиком обратной связи. Управление электромеханическим приводом осуществляется посредством импульсного электромагнитного поля, формируемого соленоидами по командам от устройства управления, угловое положение измеряется магниторезистивными датчиками угла от постоянного кольцевого магнита привода. Управляющие обмотки электромеханического привода 5 и система управления приводом расположены внутри корпуса снаряда 1.

    Предлагаемый управляемый снаряд работает следующим образом. До выстрела при нахождении снаряда в канале ствола и в момент выстрела подвижный носовой обтекатель находится в заарретированом состояние вдоль оси вращения снаряда и не касается ствола артиллерийской пушки, так как его мидель меньше калибра пушки. После выстрела система управления приводом с задержкой по времени (~0,1...0,25 с), необходимой для раскрытия стабилизирующих хвостовых крыльев снаряда, снимает привод с арретира и осуществляет отклонения носовой части в зависимости от необходимых команд управления.

    Четыре взаимно-перпендикулярные аэродинамические плоскости, неподвижно закрепленные на подвижном носовом обтекателе, повышают аэродинамические характеристики снаряда, а электромеханический управляющий привод обеспечивает более широкий диапазон отклонения подвижного носового наконечника.

    Согласно результатам расчета сеточным методом аэродинамических характеристик для снаряда схемы «утка» калибра 57 мм, изделие обладает хорошей управляемостью в диапазоне скоростей М=0,8...2,5 Мах с перегрузками 2,7g-13g при относительно небольших углах отклонения носового обтекателя (±°2) и имеет резерв по увеличению угла до ±3° с соответствующим увеличением перегрузок без значительного ухудшения устойчивости.

    Предлагаемое техническое решение позволяет повысить эффективность управления малокалиберным снарядом за счет улучшения аэродинамических управляющих характеристик снаряда с подвижным носовым обтекателем с четырьмя аэродинамическими плоскостями и увеличенными углами отклонения, обеспечиваемыми электромагнитным приводом. Одновременно достигается снижение веса и габаритов привода по сравнению с вариантом привода с раскрывающимися после выстрела рулями. При этом, по сравнению с традиционными рулевыми поверхностями, углы отклонения которых достигают 15°÷20°, что, как следствие, приводит к росту их индуктивного сопротивления, пропорционального квадрату угла отклонения. Предлагаемое техническое решение обладает существенным преимуществом в части уменьшения лобового сопротивления.

    Малокалиберный управляемый снаряд аэродинамической схемы «утка», содержащий подвижный носовой обтекатель, установленный на шаровой или карданный подвес, и управляющий привод, отличающийся тем, что на подвижном носовом обтекателе установлены четыре неподвижные взаимно перпендикулярные аэродинамические плоскости, причем управляющий привод носового обтекателя выполнен электромеханическим, а место установки шарнирного подвеса выбирается из условия минимизации аэродинамического шарнирного момента.


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    GarryB

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:48 am

    GarryB, the 2S38 is not an artillery piece? I think you need to remember what the designation 2S38 means.

    You are confused regarding the name artillery.

    It does not just mean gun.

    The 2S6M is Tunguska and is a gun based airdefence system... you would not call it artillery because artillery is much heavier calibre used most of the time in indirect fire roles.

    This system (2S38) is primarily an anti aircraft gun with anti armour performance as a bonus because it will also be used on IFVs.

    In other words it will be a high velocity direct fire weapon... much like the German 88mm flak gun of WWII where its high velocity for Anti aircraft use made it effective against armour.

    @robognus

    This forum is English an language forum... you can post other languages but please include english summaries or translations.

    The idea of a nose of a projectile to steer a guided projectile is not new and would be rather less effective on a larger calibre like 57mm rounds as these rounds slow down fairly rapidly and don't leave the muzzle at high speed in the first place.

    A full calibre 57mm guided round will probably only be moving at about 900m/s and so for much of their flight... 6km plus will likely actually be subsonic... where a flexible nose wont offer enough turning performance to hit moving targets.


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    Cyberspec

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:28 am

    Some stats on the 2S38...

    max effective horizontal range: 6km
    max effective vertical range: 4.5km
    max speed of target 500m/sec
    Max rate of fire 120rds/min (carries 148 rds)
    Gun elevation -5 / +75 deg
    3 man crew

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    GarryB

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:32 am

    With timed fuses it would be excellent for shooting at UAVs.

    In the direct fire support role it would also be interesting.

    The real question however for me is what does the ammo look like.

    Can we assume it uses the same shape ammo as the S-60 AAG, or have they developed a new gun with a new round.

    They will need all new rounds as the old 57mm rounds were conservative in design and much more powerful ammo could be created on the same basis now.

    With new case design they could also develop a rather new rather more powerful weapon as well.


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    Interlinked

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Interlinked on Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:26 pm

    Love it! Looks very cyberpunk, like something out of Ghost in the Shell.

    Hopefully it gets APFSDS from the get-go.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:58 pm

    Most 57mm unmanned turrets I have seen have ATGMs witch suggests that it is an IFV turret most likely It will be used on the kurganets 25 and T-15 Armata and the use of epoch turrets on parade vehicles may have been because the 57mm was not ready at the time of construction.

    The lack of any missiles or radar clearly indicates that it is not intended as an anti aircraft weapon although if using the T-15s radar it could be used as a very poor ad system if the commander would wish to do so.

    I hope to see it on the T-15 soon a heavy IFV having the same weapon system as a wheeled APC is down right ridiculous.

    Interlinked wrote:Love it! Looks very cyberpunk, like something out of Ghost in the Shell.

    How does this vehicle look cyberpunk? The BMPT-72 looks like a sci-fi vehicle but the 2s38?
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    Interlinked

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Interlinked on Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:22 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:

    How does this vehicle look cyberpunk? The BMPT-72 looks like a sci-fi vehicle but the 2s38?

    It's the grey.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:42 pm

    Interlinked wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:

    How does this vehicle look cyberpunk? The BMPT-72 looks like a sci-fi vehicle but the 2s38?

    It's the grey.

    What? I do not understand do you mean that if someone were to paint a T-35 grey it would somehow look futuristic?

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Interlinked on Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:52 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:

    What? I do not understand do you mean that if someone were to paint a T-35 grey it would somehow look futuristic?


    It has the same "feel" as the Object 782. If you don't get it, you don't get it. It's just a passing remark, and it doesn't deserve to be pursued further. Off Topic
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:09 pm

    Interlinked wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:

    What? I do not understand do you mean that if someone were to paint a T-35 grey it would somehow look futuristic?


    It has the same "feel" as the Object 782. If you don't get it, you don't get it. It's just a passing remark, and it doesn't deserve to be pursued further. Off Topic

    Oh you mean it reminds you of the twin turreted street sweeper I thin I get it.
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:22 am

    A 2S38 designation suggests it wont be an IFV, and further the listing of 148 rounds on board suggest to me the rear hull might just contain ammo for the main gun in an auto ammo handling system.

    It could be a gun platform that operates with air defence vehicles and receives target data from those other vehicles.... ie TOR and Pantsir.

    Keep in mind that the Tunguska designation is 2S6M, so they could be splitting the guns and missiles apart again, though this calibre would allow guided shells to be a standard option.


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:19 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Some stats on the 2S38...

    max effective horizontal range: 6km
    max effective vertical range: 4.5km
    max speed of target 500m/sec
    Max rate of fire 120rds/min (carries 148 rds)
    Gun elevation -5 / +75 deg
    3 man crew


    The ranges of this weapon would be inside the margin of ranges of the modern man-portable air defense weapons.

    In Russia, in heavy platforms, today only would have a chance combined with other roles/weapons. It can be combined with infantry roles (in IFVs) or with some stronger air defense missile (going toward a Pantsir model or toward a BMPT model with some additional air defense capability).
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:45 pm

    Will the 57mm gun be standard?

    BMPs are usually the grinders into witch nato would throw their infantry.

    BMP-3 has a fast firing 30mm autocannon a low velocity 100mm and 3 7.62mm MGs all of witch are primarily anti infantry.

    BMP-2 Brezhok has a fast firing 30mm autocannon a 30mm AGL and a 7.62mm MG it only has ATGMs incase it encounters something that is armored.

    So will we be seeing 2 IFV types in the Russian army?

    Bearing in mind the west has a extremely large supply of infantry and they are considered highly expendable.
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:48 am

    Doubt it will be standard anytime soon.  It's under trial and considered experimental atm
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:01 am

    GarryB wrote:
    GarryB, the 2S38 is not an artillery piece? I think you need to remember what the designation 2S38 means.

    You are confused regarding the name artillery.

    It does not just mean gun.

    The 2S6M is Tunguska and is a gun based airdefence system... you would not call it artillery because artillery is much heavier calibre used most of the time in indirect fire roles.

    This system (2S38) is primarily an anti aircraft gun with anti armour performance as a bonus because it will also be used on IFVs.

    In other words it will be a high velocity direct fire weapon... much like the German 88mm flak gun of WWII where its high velocity for Anti aircraft use made it effective against armour.

    Anti-air artillery always has been artillery.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  kopyo-21 on Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:29 am

    We can see very clearly that Zak-57 has 2 coaxial guns attached on 2 sides of the main gun. They look like 2A72 30mm gun but I am not sure. Do you know exactly what these guns are?

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Interlinked on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:04 am

    kopyo-21 wrote:We can see very clearly that Zak-57 has 2 coaxial guns attached on 2 sides of the main gun. They look like 2A72 30mm gun but I am not sure. Do you know exactly what these guns are?

    Those are way too small to be anything other than a part of the support frame or part of the recoilling mechanism. They're also too long to be PKTM machine guns, and there is already one on the right side of the turret anyway.


    Last edited by Interlinked on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:21 am

    They look like recoil struts to me to be honest...

    It would not make sense to have coaxial 30mm high velocity guns with a 57mm high velocity gun as they would be rather redundant.

    Having a low velocity 57mm grenade launcher with a high velocity gun would make sense... in this case it would be like the 30mm and the 100mm guns on the BMP-3... a small calibre high velocity gun to penetrate armour and a larger calibre low velocity gun for heavy HE shells against soft or area targets.

    In this case however it seems they would not need a 30mm high velocity gun with a high velocity 57mm gun... the 57mm gun would have both a better HE round and a better armour piercing round... the only advantage the 30mm cannon would have is smaller more compact ammo and higher rate of fire.

    Guided 57mm rounds would make higher rate of fire redundant, and a 30mm grenade launcher or 40mm grenade launcher would have even more compact ammo able to carry even more rounds with a different flight trajectory able to hit targets behind cover unlike the high velocity 57mm gun.


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Interlinked on Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:03 am

    GarryB wrote:Guided 57mm rounds would make higher rate of fire redundant, and a 30mm grenade launcher or 40mm grenade launcher would have even more compact ammo able to carry even more rounds with a different flight trajectory able to hit targets behind cover unlike the high velocity 57mm gun.

    Unguided 57mm rounds would already be good enough to make a higher rate of fire redundant, and low velocity grenade launchers aren't necessary for defeating targets behind cover/in trenches. It would be better to implement an advanced fuse with programmable delay to allow the shells to penetrate the barrier and explode on the other side. The same type of fuse would enable air bursting. You could fire a few rounds over a barrier (or through a window) and take out enemies that way, and this is very important in urban fighting. A low velocity grenade launcher would be able to lob grenades over a wall, but it would be pretty useless if there is a roof in the way. Low velocity grenade launchers would also be worse than high velocity autocannons against snipers bunkered down in high rises.
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  George1 on Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:26 pm

    Conformation for the development of a gun anti-aircraft complex for Shilka Replacement

    https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2158423.html


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:18 pm

    George1 wrote:Conformation for the development of a gun anti-aircraft complex for Shilka Replacement

    https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2158423.html


    do you mean this?

    https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12157092@egNews  ?

    A new anti-aircraft artillery complex is being developed in the Army
    New anti-aircraft artillery complex will replace the anti-aircraft artillery systems "Shilka".
    This complex is designed to engage air targets such as tactical UAVs, cruise missiles, single MLRS missiles, precision weapons and tactical aviation aircraft, fire support helicopters as well as lightly armored sea and land targets.

    A special feature of the complex is its low radio visibility, achieved through the use of passive means of reconnaissance, detection and tracking of air targets.




    it looks like 57mm is in. The only question is what with cooling. After short burst of 57mm ammo how many minutes it has to cool down? water cooling?  2 barrels?
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:11 pm

    The Tunguska has water cooled barrels, as does the ZSU-23-4, so I would expect some sort of cooling system for the barrel too.

    I rather think after combining the missiles and guns together on one platform in the Tunguska, that they have now gone the other way and put the radar and expensive bits on the missile vehicle that deals with the air threats (ie Pantsir-SM) out to 40km or so, while the gun system deals with closer threats and last second threats like UAVs, UCAVs and of course cruise missiles and stealthy threats that might not be detected until they are close anyway.

    By leaving off the radar and other heavy expensive bits and pieces they will make the gun armed vehicles lighter and cheaper but modern EO sensors and datalinks will make them just as effective if not more so against some threats.

    A problem they found in Georgia in 8 8 8, was that UAVs flying at over 4,000m were out of reach of 23mm cannon, and so small an IR signature that MANPADS had little chance of a good missile lock. They were left with sending up MiG-29s using R-73s or firing BUK missiles... both of which were expensive and not very efficient as both systems would be better used against other threats.

    The Pantsir or Tunguska could have been one solution with a missile, but being able to deal with a few at a time like a gun can with accurately aimed shells that detonate when close to the target is much more efficient than firing up hundreds of rounds in the hope of a hit in the case of 23mm or 30mm rounds.

    A single guided 57mm shell that explodes right next to a fragile UAV might not be as cheap as a single 30mm cannon shell but it will do the job quickly and efficiently and with different ammo types can be used in other roles too including anti cruise missile use and a powerful secondary anti armour use.

    Radar silent they could be used to devastating effect against enemy CAS aircraft like A-10s and Apache helos... of course missiles will deal with such targets at much greater ranges but when an Apache pops up from behind a tree 3km away and scans with its radar and then pops down behind that tree a rapid shot of a 57mm shell to the point where the helo was to detonate the round directly above where the helo is now sitting thinking it is safe would be a nasty surprise... as would a much faster APFSDS round going straight through the tree... or a SAPHEI round for that matter.


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  kopyo-21 on Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:47 am

    If I am not wrong, the new 57mm Spaag still have a radar on the left side of turret right?


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