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    BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:47 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:If they decide to upgrade mass amounts of BMP-2's that would mean other vehicles are far more behind than planned otherwise there is zero reason to put money into such a project if things like the Kurg are just around the corner.


    This would be geared towards exports. Lots of these things are in use around the world so it is a decent sized market. And does not look all that expensive. Remember, brand new 1000+ hp engine for T-72 costs in the ballpark of just 100.000$ so this kit is probably peanuts as well.

    Also, these vehicles will be going into reserve soon and it is always wise to keep your reserve up to date as much as possible.

    This logic makes sense if Russia already had all the Kurgs etc they wanted. If this was just to update some naval forces or back water reserve garrison units that use maybe a couple hundred BMP-2's that would be an understandable move. To upgrade thousands of them for domestic units doesn't.

    They don't they will not spend tons of money upgrading BMP-2's when they still have to buy tons of new vehicles to replace said BMP-2's.

    Export is another story but domestic? no way. Russian Mod would have to be pretty foolish to do this, not like they have unlimited money even my country who spends way more than them would have an issue with such a concept.
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    franco

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  franco on Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:07 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:If they decide to upgrade mass amounts of BMP-2's that would mean other vehicles are far more behind than planned otherwise there is zero reason to put money into such a project if things like the Kurg are just around the corner.


    So far ~400 were upgraded with another 580 in the second order for about ~1000. All mechanical and electronic upgrades so far with no weapons upgrade announced so far.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:20 am

    If they decide to upgrade mass amounts of BMP-2's that would mean other vehicles are far more behind than planned otherwise there is zero reason to put money into such a project if things like the Kurg are just around the corner.

    No it would not.

    They are upgrading all in service equipment, it means nothing regarding the new replacement equipment in development.

    Looks like the "Berezhok" upgrade, not really wise to keep working on BMP-2s anymore since Kurganets is on the way, but still a good choice for exports to upgrade to, although BMP-3s would probly be a better investment for them.

    Upgrading the enormous existing fleet of vehicles makes rather more sense than saving money and spending it on the new vehicles to trickle into service in a year or twos time.

    It is a way to get existing forces used to more advanced and capable systems and also to get work for companies that will soon be producing new equipment for the new vehicles too.

    Also, these vehicles will be going into reserve soon and it is always wise to keep your reserve up to date as much as possible.

    They will go to reserve when there are enough new vehicles for operational use... which will take a few years to achieve.

    This logic makes sense if Russia already had all the Kurgs etc they wanted. If this was just to update some naval forces or back water reserve garrison units that use maybe a couple hundred BMP-2's that would be an understandable move. To upgrade thousands of them for domestic units doesn't.

    If there is an upgrade available for the fleet it makes sense to apply it when there is money available... it seems there is money available.

    Saving money for a vehicle not even in service yet and then to spend money on vehicles going into reserve is stupid.

    Spend the money now on in service vehicles. What works and what does not will show up in use and that can be applied to the new vehicles being developed.

    They don't they will not spend tons of money upgrading BMP-2's when they still have to buy tons of new vehicles to replace said BMP-2's.

    The BMP-1s will be replaced first... it will likely be 5-10 years before the BMP-2s are gone from frontline service... especially all its modifications and specialist versions.

    You get the best bang for your buck upgrading existing types already in service... not by saving your pennys for vehicles that are not in service yet.

    Export is another story but domestic? no way. Russian Mod would have to be pretty foolish to do this, not like they have unlimited money even my country who spends way more than them would have an issue with such a concept.

    Russian MOD does not upgrade their vehicles so they can be exported... that is not their function or their focus. If the Russian export company decides to export material it might offer upgrades but usually to seal the deal as a bonus. Ie free old vehicles and you pay for the upgrades to make them useful.

    So far ~400 were upgraded with another 580 in the second order for about ~1000. All mechanical and electronic upgrades so far with no weapons upgrade announced so far.

    So they have already upgraded half the vehicles they were planning to upgrade... there is no way they could have introduced 1,000 Kurganets vehicles to replace the BMP-2s in service for that sort of money in that sort of time... so it is money well spent.


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    0nillie0

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    So they have already upgraded half the vehicles they were planning to upgrade... there is no way they could have introduced 1,000 Kurganets vehicles to replace the BMP-2s in service for that sort of money in that sort of time... so it is money well spent.

    Well from what i know the electronic upgrades consist of the integration of a new intercom and R-168 radio stations. I don't really know what is being upgraded mechanically.

    Imho this is more of an essential "update" to ensure these vehicles remain capable of inter-operation with the land forces, rather than an upgrade of the overall vehicle capabilities. It is clearly a short term thing. If they where planning on keeping large amounts of BMP-2's in frontline service for the next 10 years or so, imho we would see far more extensive upgrades being implemented. Both the Russian MoD, and the enemies of Russia have stated and acknowledged that the BMP-2 is no longer viable for modern high intensity conflicts.

    Imho the Berezhok upgrade which was announced but not yet implemented, is the true mistake here. If they would have done this when the kit first became available, i would understand this. But with the development of the Kurganets and other new vehicle families so far advanced, it would make more sense to simply wait for that development to be completed. And as the new vehicles enter service, use the technology in these vehicles to slowly start upgrading the BMP-2's in parallel with simplified packages. For example, integrate the gunner sight, and simplified FCS of Kurganets IFV, and develop new side skirts that can carry the add-on armor modules. Or simply remove the existing BMP-2 turret and replace it with the RWS for the Kurganets altogether. I think the key feature is that they need to find a way to upgrade the protection of the BMP-2, while retaining its mobility and low profile.

    Al tough this would be initially more expensive, i think the benefit of having frontline forces and reserves/second line forces using similar systems would be greatly beneficial in the longer term.

    In the future, BMP-2's could even be converted to operate fully unmanned alongside the kurganets or armata family.

    Even tho i always hoped that Berezhok would be implemented, imho its too little too late now. And i hope that in the future we can see a BMP-2 with some features of Kurganets instead.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:18 am

    Why not apply the Berezhok upgrade?

    Modify it so that it contains components compatible with the new electronic and sensor suites being developed in the new vehicle family systems, but they cannot be completely transferred to the BMP series because they have unmanned turrets which none of the BMPs have.

    BMP-2s already have front mounted engines and rear mounted doors... so they are a step ahead of the BMP-3s in that regard.

    Fitting the Standard APS system should bulk up their armour protection and applique armour should further improve performance without increasing weight that much.

    You can't remove the turret and replace it with a RWS... where would the commander and gunner sit?

    Its main purpose is troop transport... let it continue to do that...

    Both the Russian MoD, and the enemies of Russia have stated and acknowledged that the BMP-2 is no longer viable for modern high intensity conflicts.

    With Kornets and RPG-28s about no western IFV is safe either...


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    0nillie0

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:Why not apply the Berezhok upgrade?


    You can't remove the turret and replace it with a RWS... where would the commander and gunner sit?

    Its main purpose is troop transport... let it continue to do that...

    I agree on that. My personal opinion on the matter is that with the advances in computerized FCS and digital battlefield monitoring systems, a personnel carrier shouldn't require both a gunner and a commander. I think the commander can fulfill both roles from a single station, which would create additional space for a fully equipped dismount. As seen in the picture below, the BMP-2 can be converted for remote weapon station integration, while still maintaining a fairly large area available for dismounts. However, i do understand that there is a difference in doctrine and tradition between East and West, and that such as a drastic modification of the vehicle hull comes at a cost and may not be as efficient in practice.

    Inside of the BMP-2 upgraded by Excalibur Army : (note the commander and gunner stations at the front. The reconfigured hull reduces the transport capacity to just 6 fully equipped dismounts).



    With Kornets and RPG-28s about no western IFV is safe either...

    Yes this is true, and it is exactly the reason why Berezhok is so lethal. But this should not stop Russia from trying to improve the protection of its BMP-2 crews either. This can be done in a number of ways
    - Add active protection suite used in Kurganets/T-15
    - Add new addon armor used in Kurganets/T-15
    - Add addon armor kits already developed for previous iterations of the BMP-2M
    - Reconfigure the chassis so that there is no ammunition near the crew, and there are safer ways to exit the vehicle (replace the rear doors). IMHO is the main problem of the Berezhok upgrade. Ammo remains near crew, while side and rear armor remain equally vulnerable.  

    Or a combination of the above.

    Taking in to account doctrine and cost efficiency, the best way to go would probably be to add active protection in combination with increased firepower of the Berezhok. So in conclusion, i agree to that.
    But i also look at other possibilities.

    Edit*
    One other issue i have with Berezhok is the fixed grenade launcher. I rather wish they could integrate a commander sight similar to that on the T-14 and T-90MS, which is combined with a weapon station. Imho the grenade launcher is more efficient if it can operate independently from the turret. But this off course is wishful thinking.
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  VladimirSahin on Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:34 am

    So the upgraded BMPs are the BMP-2M variant (berezhok turret)??
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:27 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Looks like the "Berezhok" upgrade, not really wise to keep working on BMP-2s anymore since Kurganets is on the way, but still a good choice for exports to upgrade to, although BMP-3s would probly be a better investment for them.

    Upgrading the enormous existing fleet of vehicles makes rather more sense than saving money and spending it on the new vehicles to trickle into service in a year or twos time.

    It is a way to get existing forces used to more advanced and capable systems and also to get work for companies that will soon be producing new equipment for the new vehicles too.

    Looks like i was dead wrong, that's not the Berezhok upgrade, not sure what 2M variant that is, Vanilla 2M+cage/side armor?? scratch

    Well if they can get them upgraded at a good pace, than sure.

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  kopyo-21 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:03 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Looks like the "Berezhok" upgrade, not really wise to keep working on BMP-2s anymore since Kurganets is on the way, but still a good choice for exports to upgrade to, although BMP-3s would probly be a better investment for them.

    Upgrading the enormous existing fleet of vehicles makes rather more sense than saving money and spending it on the new vehicles to trickle into service in a year or twos time.

    It is a way to get existing forces used to more advanced and capable systems and also to get work for companies that will soon be producing new equipment for the new vehicles too.

    Looks like i was dead wrong, that's not the Berezhok upgrade, not sure what 2M variant that is, Vanilla 2M+cage/side armor?? scratch

    Well if they can get them upgraded at a good pace, than sure.
    BMP-2M: three projects with the same name:

    1. Joined project with BMP-3 turret (100mm combined 30mm gun)
    2. Tula "Berezhok" upgrade with 30mm 2A42 gun, Ags-30 30mm grenade and Kornet laser beam riding ATGM
    3. Kurgansky "Brezhok" upgrade with embodiment, 30mm 2A42 gun and Ataka radio guided ATGM

    https://topwar.ru/21909-bmp-2m-tri-proekta-s-odnim-imenem.html


    Last edited by kopyo-21 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Book.

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  Book. on Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:41 am





    Ru do the Moderna. Berezhok
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2517253.html
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    franco

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  franco on Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:16 pm

    Ministry of Defense signs contract for the modernization of 540 BMP-2 and BMD-2's with Tula. Perhaps the long awaited Berezhok upgrade but it is not stated as such.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12144005@egNews
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    franco

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  franco on Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:37 pm

    The Tula plant BMP-2M upgrade http://bastion-karpenko.ru/bmp-2m/
    and BMD-2M http://bastion-opk.ru/bmd-2m/
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:21 pm

    franco wrote:The Tula plant BMP-2M upgrade http://bastion-karpenko.ru/bmp-2m/
    and BMD-2M http://bastion-opk.ru/bmd-2m/

    Actually if you follow this link
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/bmp-2m/

    you can find info about also increased protection (slightly though) mine protection, side curtains for cumulative "deflectors" and armor piercing 12,7mm rounds.
    Wieght of additional screens will not hinder floating abilities.


    They say also engine and suspension will be upgraded too.

    BTW if AGS-30mm will work well on Berezhok upgrade WTF this was removed for Terminator ?!
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    franco

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  franco on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:42 am

    A 540 total should equal 3 BMP regiments / brigades (9 battalions, 40 per) and 2 BMD regiments (6 battalions, 30 per).
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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:27 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    franco wrote:The Tula plant BMP-2M upgrade http://bastion-karpenko.ru/bmp-2m/
    and BMD-2M http://bastion-opk.ru/bmd-2m/


    BTW if AGS-30mm will work well on Berezhok upgrade WTF this was removed for Terminator ?!

    What is your source on the removal of AGS-30?

    AFAIK the latest iteration (showcased in Syria) combines the older chassis with the newer turret.
    Older chassis retains 2x 30mm AGS-30 launchers covering the frontal arc.

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:48 pm

    0nillie0 wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    franco wrote:The Tula plant BMP-2M upgrade http://bastion-karpenko.ru/bmp-2m/
    and BMD-2M http://bastion-opk.ru/bmd-2m/


    BTW if AGS-30mm will work well on Berezhok upgrade WTF this was removed for Terminator ?!

    What is your source on the removal of AGS-30?

    AFAIK the latest iteration (showcased in Syria) combines the older chassis with the newer turret.
    Older chassis retains 2x 30mm AGS-30 launchers covering the frontal arc.




    Terminator 2. Check in any bastion source or wiki or GurKhan blog.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:10 am

    My understanding is that the new Terminator has three crew instead of five so it does not have the extra two crewmen in the hull to operate the two 30mm grenade launchers.


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    0nillie0

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:56 am

    Terminator 2. Check in any bastion source or wiki or GurKhan blog.

    Yes, that is picture of BMPT-72 aka "Terminator 2" from Army 2015.

    Recent pictures of terminator shipped to Syria in 2017 for evaluation :



    Note the crew stations for AGS-30 are still there. These pictures also appeared on Ghurkan blog

    Why place the new turret on the old chassis, if you plan to use the new turret and new chassis for domestic trials?
    At any rate, i think they should find a different solution for the AGS-30. perhaps combine the commander sight with RWS like in T-90 upgrade.
    Crew should be 3.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:03 am

    The problem there is ability to engage separate targets.

    The point of bow mounted weapons is to be able to fire upon targets in front of the vehicle.

    The job of the commander is to find both threats and targets... the driver will be instructed to point the nose 9ie heaviest armour) towards the greatest threats, which will mean both grenade launchers can engage the greatest threats too... whether they are ATGM teams or aircraft or whatever the gunner might be directed to engage the threat while the bow gunners can engage targets of opportunity.

    Needless to say the commanders job is to tell the driver where to drive and give the gunner the target that needs to be engaged first with any other target handed off to a bow gunner.

    Having just three crew means the bow guns would be pointless as there would be no one to operate them.

    If you want to suggest the commander use those then you are ignoring a century of battle experience.

    It is a full time job for the commander to direct the gunner and the driver and to look for new targets and new threats.
    Personally I would like to see the two bow grenade launchers replaced with flat external gun mounts with a PKP and a Balkan 40mm grenade launcher.... both very compact weapons... on on the front corner of the hull and one on the rear corner of the hull so front and rear and sides can be covered by both weapons with say 270 degree arcs of fire.

    I think the two 30mm cannons of the Terminator should be replaced with a single twin barrel 323mm cannon as fitted to the late model Mi-24, and a 120mm rifled gun mortar fitted, plus either a 57mm grenade launcher or a long barrel Balkan 40mm grenade launcher.

    If they are going to be testing it it makes sense to test the latest turret but also the old chassis with the grenade launchers.


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    0nillie0

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    Re: BMP-1/BMP-2 Upgrades and Variants

    Post  0nillie0 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:22 am

    GarryB wrote:The problem there is ability to engage separate targets.

    The point of bow mounted weapons is to be able to fire upon targets in front of the vehicle.

    The job of the commander is to find both threats and targets... the driver will be instructed to point the nose 9ie heaviest armour) towards the greatest threats, which will mean both grenade launchers can engage the greatest threats too... whether they are ATGM teams or aircraft or whatever the gunner might be directed to engage the threat while the bow gunners can engage targets of opportunity.

    Needless to say the commanders job is to tell the driver where to drive and give the gunner the target that needs to be engaged first with any other target handed off to a bow gunner.

    Having just three crew means the bow guns would be pointless as there would be no one to operate them.

    If you want to suggest the commander use those then you are ignoring a century of battle experience.

    It is a full time job for the commander to direct the gunner and the driver and to look for new targets and new threats.
    Personally I would like to see the two bow grenade launchers replaced with flat external gun mounts with a PKP and a Balkan 40mm grenade launcher.... both very compact weapons... on on the front corner of the hull and one on the rear corner of the hull so front and rear and sides can be covered by both weapons with say 270 degree arcs of fire.

    I think the two 30mm cannons of the Terminator should be replaced with a single twin barrel 323mm cannon as fitted to the late model Mi-24, and a 120mm rifled gun mortar fitted, plus either a 57mm grenade launcher or a long barrel Balkan 40mm grenade launcher.

    If they are going to be testing it it makes sense to test the latest turret but also the old chassis with the grenade launchers.

    You make a good point. The bow mounted weapons are there for a reason. Still, i think it would be a nice addition for the commander to have his own grenade launcher to engage targets of opportunity. When operating in a high intensity combat situation. Also, removing ammo away from any crew members is always good, and also reducing the amount of potential KIA's per vehicle.

    One solution i have been thinking of could be to use a more compact, mast mounted sight for the commander (something along the lines of Rafael Minipop). The mast of the sight could run trough the remote weapon station, similar to what we see in for example in the BRDM-2 upgraded by Aselsan. Here we see the observation mast which runs trough the weapon station, allowing the mast to rotate independently from the weapon station, while not interfering with its line of sight.

    In the case of the Terminator, the grenade launcher can be set up at the location of the current commander sight. It can be directed by the FCS to cover the frontal arc of the chassis by default, regardless of the turret azimuth. However, if the situation requires it, it can also engage targets in line of sight with the turret. The commander can also take over control of the weapon, automatically slewing it to his own independent mast mounted sight and fire on targets of opportunity.

    The weapon would be controlled by a 4th crew member which is seated where one of the current AGS operators are located. Basically he would need just enough room for a controller, FCS control panel and small LCD screen, which displays image from a low-level TV camera which is fixed to the weapon station. When he is in control of the station, the stabilized sight is slewed automatically to the front. He can also engage targets off center from the hull. The gunner and commander can both take over, and this gives the weapon pretty much 360 degree coverage (including the front) without interfering with the commander sight, which runs trough its center and is elevated above it.
    This also reduces the total crew to 4 instead of 5, or even a basic 3 man setup if the situation so requires it.

    Now there are issues with this setup :
    Firstly it will increase both production and training costs
    Secondly, the Russians have a good doctrine of using reasonably well protected electro-optics. A mast mounted sight will always be more vulnerable, but it also has advantages.
    Third : the FCS becomes more complex, the crew station needs to be big enough to fit all these components etc...
    Fourth : Manually aimed and operated weapons are unhindered by electronic warfare and jamming etc.

    Personally, i don't see this happening as it just does not really fit Russian military doctrine. But perhaps other nations can try this on their terminator copies, which will undoubtedly follow in the future.

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