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    Russian VSHORADS Thread

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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  nightcrawler on Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:52 pm

    Nice video Garry but there occurs some questions from my side:
    1] The 6 nozzle booster; when did it separate. I mean just after the launch or only at terminal potion
    2]For coarse correction; the gas dynamics nozzles are situated only at the front just besides the fins of the missile plus is also located at the tail side of the missile. In action the former can be seen but what abt the latter one?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:23 am

    1] The 6 nozzle booster; when did it separate. I mean just after the launch or only at terminal potion

    Looking at it closely it seems to be about the size of an ice hockey puck and the central nozzle is straight but the ones around the edge are angled.

    I rather expect this is a booster charge that has two main purposes... to blow the rocket out of the launch tube and clear of the firing position before the main rocket accelerates the missile to the target, and to impart an initial spin to the rocket to stabilise it initially while it is moving relatively slowly to prevent it veering off course one way or another. At such low speeds the small fin controls would lack the force to keep the nose pointed up at the target area so by giving it some spin it makes sure it doesn't belly dive into the ground straight after launch.

    2]For coarse correction; the gas dynamics nozzles are situated only at
    the front just besides the fins of the missile plus is also located at
    the tail side of the missile. In action the former can be seen but what
    abt the latter one?

    If you look at about 2 minutes in the video I posted there are actually four fins near the front of the missile that pop out after launch. One main pair of two fins that are also on the older Igla missiles and a smaller second pair of fins there too to assist in steering the missile to the target.
    The four fins at the very rear of the missile are fixed stabilising fins, they fold out on launch and then do not move and provide stability to the missile in flight. The fins at the nose steer the missile toward the target.
    The rocket nozzles near the nose are used in the terminal phase of the interception to improve hit probability to shove the missile on target and reduce miss distance.

    The video above in the first few seconds shows a missile destroying a drone aircraft with the missile zapping through at supersonic speed... such a weapon is not that easy to dodge as it is moving very fast. A last minute turn by an aircraft can be compensated for by the force of a side thruster rocket firing to shift the missile onto the new target position and as the missile is spinning several times a different thruster can be fired in the same direction to move a significant amount to reduce the miss distance.

    Austin

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    Interesting I didnt knew Igla-S has side thrusters , I hope they bring a digital version of Igla-S soon while the expensive Verba keeps getting inducted.

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:47 pm

    Interesting I didnt knew Igla-S has side thrusters , I hope they bring a digital version of Igla-S soon while the expensive Verba keeps getting inducted.

    A digital version would allow them to reprogram for newer countermeasures on the field , beyond the only weakness Igla-S seems pretty good.

    Austin

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:48 am

    GarryB wrote:What makes you think the Igla-S is not digital? The only countermeasures likely to be effective against the Igla-S would be DIRCMS and they are really not that wide spread in use these days.There is a reason NATO aircraft stay as high over Libya as they did over Kosovo...

    I was told its not digital and not reprogrammable on field by Russian rep during AeroIndia
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:00 am

    I was told its not digital and not reprogrammable on field by Russian rep during AeroIndia

    Did he say that was the same for both export Igla-S he was showing and the domestic Igla-S missiles being produced for Russian forces?

    I hope they start spending money on the Russian electronics industry because such systems should be digital by now... I suspect it is the lack of investment in the electronics industry in Russia and the problems of getting modern foreign electronics imported into Russia that will be the problem.

    Their new AAMs are digital (ie RVV-MD and RVV-SD) including those for export...

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    Igla MANPADS

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:55 am

    GarryB wrote:Did he say that was the same for both export Igla-S he was showing and the domestic Igla-S missiles being produced for Russian forces?

    I hope they start spending money on the Russian electronics industry because such systems should be digital by now... I suspect it is the lack of investment in the electronics industry in Russia and the problems of getting modern foreign electronics imported into Russia that will be the problem.

    Their new AAMs are digital (ie RVV-MD and RVV-SD) including those for export...

    Yes the Igla-S are analog there is no digital Igla/Igla-S , there is some advantage in keeping it analog for this small missile and some disadvantage.

    The verba will be digital , for most part Igla-S should work unless some one figured out how to decoy its seeker , like they figured out with Stinger used in afganistan.
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    medo

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    Russian army evaluating Zipkin PMADS?

    Post  medo on Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:09 pm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At%C4%B1lgan_PMADS

    In Wikipedia site I find between operators of Turkish Aselsan pedestal mounted air defense systems (PMADS) also Russia, which evaluated Zipkin variant, the same as Netherland use on their Fenneks. They wrote not in service yet, evaluated only. How many Russian MoD (or maybe it is FSB) buy for evaluations? Are they placed on original Land Rovers or on Russian Tiger or Vystrel vehicles? Are they planing to buy them, when they have similar Strelets system placed on MT-LB and could be placed on similar vehicles? Anyone have any more informations about Zipkin in Russian army? It's strange that Russian would buy foreign air defense system, although it will use their own Igla missiles instead of Stingers.
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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:26 am

    The Russians are buying small batches of all sorts of systems for testing, and I rather suspect that is as far as most will go.

    The Russian Navy already has Gibka, and for land based systems they have Phoenix with 8 missiles and two 50 cal HMGs and 360 degree IR sensors that we know of.
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    medo

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:03 pm

    True, but usually those buyings of foreign equipment for evaluations are more known in medias, like buying from France, Italy, Germany and Israel. Buying of air defense equipment from Turkey is quite unknown and also strange. There is no mentioning of it in other NATO members nor in Russian medias. If they actually have Zipkin, they could show its testings as they show Israeli UAVs and Iveco LMVs. Or maybe it is FSB who evaluate it and not MoD, that it is in such secret.
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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:43 am

    Well the fact that the system is offered with the SA-18 Igla as an option perhaps suggests the Russians might want to get a piece of the action for exports that will require SA-18 missiles to be supplied?

    This is simply a stabilised MANPAD launcher with TV and Thermal Imager with a laser range finder and 12.7mm HMG backup... it is hardly something Russia would need to import.

    Unless it is linked to oil or gas agreements I rather doubt they will do more than buy a few evaluation systems.

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:45 pm

    Installing SA-18 Igla on Zipkin doesn't need Russian evaluations, the same as Germans don't need Russians to install Iglas on their Ozelot system.

    This is very strange. For evaluations and comparing to similar Russian systems, I personally think, that German Ozelot or French Aspic would be better choice, because they are for sure better quality than Turkish one and would be better standard for comparing. In my opinion, maybe Russians could use Zipkin for easier breaking into Georgian C4I, because Georgia buy a lot of Turkish equipment. In that case customer could be FSB and not MoD.

    However we do not know, what is the case behind, but Russia for sure doesn't need foreign air defense systems, their own are in the World standard.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:58 am

    I would suspect that they probably identified as many systems in that category and approached all the manufacturers for test batches.

    I highly doubt there will be any foreign purchases, these systems will start as comparison test systems and once the evaluation is finished they might be used to test defensive systems, or used as OpFor equipment in exercises.
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    medo

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:33 pm

    I agree with you, but I still have a feeling, something is unusual here. It was never mentioned Russians tested or evaluated Ozelot, Aspic, Avenger, RBS-70 or similar, but they evaluated Zipkin. More strange is a sentence "not in service yet". This could be understood as they decide to buy them and to operate them in units, although there is no need for them. And still, there is no any other information or picture about it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:43 am

    They used the SA-13 to replace the ZU-23 in VDV service as an interim system till the final system is ready.

    They have plenty of systems that use MANPADs or similar missiles like the naval Gibka, the land based Phoenix, plus they have other short range missile options including SOSNA and Morfei, while regarding "systems" rather than missiles I hear they have accepted that Barnaul-M system into service.

    We know they are developing a new system for the VDV, and that the Morfei system will likely replace short range IR systems like SA-9 and SA-13, and we also know they have alternatives in the SOSNA gun/missile system and the Phoenix MANPADS system, and that they also have the Digit twin launcher for Igla too.

    I suspect this is just an evaluation and that "not yet in service" is pure speculation that is pretty unsubstantiated.

    Lets face it, this is about a stabilised mount with a HMG and a thermal camera that can be fitted on a range of vehicles.
    That also describes the Phoenix and the various systems we have seen mounted on MTLB vehicles too.

    No disrespect meant to Turkey, but I can't see their system being sufficiently better than any Russian equivalent to warrant interest.
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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:01 pm

    Exactly as you said. Russians don't need any foreign SAM system, because their own are on the world level. If they want comparing foreign system to their own, I still think it would be better to compare with German Ozelot or French Aspic, because their level of quality is very high and that kind of comparing could be only in quality of production and of tolerances in components, all other is nothing that Russians could not put together.
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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:32 am

    I would expect they probably did look at the German and French systems, and I rather suspect there was an ulterior motive for looking at the Turkish system... perhaps related to Turkish consideration of S-400 systems?
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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:47 pm

    Could be, it is a part of business agreement. Instead of paying with money, part of payment could be done with other systems and selling Zipkin could not be so problematic inside NATO.
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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:48 am

    The thing is that I don't see Russia actually selling S-400 to Turkey any time soon.
    First of all the production rate seems too low to produce for non domestic orders in the next 5 years or so anyway, despite two new production facilities being built I can't see them selling an all S-400 system to Turkey or any NATO country except Greece and I don't think that would go down well... half of Europe bailing out Greece and Greece buying S-400 from Russia...

    I think a more likely case is that Russia has offered S-400, which Turkey is looking at to put pressure on the US for them to sweeten the deal and perhaps as a protest against Israel because Israel can't pull strings on Russian SAMs.

    If Turkey did select the Russian system I think we will find that it is actually mostly S-300, but with a few S-400 bits to make it more effective but without giving away too much.

    In return the Russians have said if you buy our stuff we will buy some of your stuff... most military deals these days include offset clauses where the buying has to invest an equivalent amount in local products. This is a small batch for testing, no doubt they are looking at other products as well, but as we agreed the Russians are not really short of equipment and technology options for their SAMs so most likely it will be a case of 10 systems for testing that might end up with a border patrol unit in the far east that is used till it wears out and is retired.

    If the sale goes through Russia will likely pick a national product and buy some of it.
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    medo

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:44 pm

    Russia isn't selling to Turkey only S-300 or S-400, they sell them other stuff also, like Kornet ATGMs. I agree, that Zipkin could be only stuff, Russians could be interested to buy. Maybe they will only test them, maybe they could also use them with foreign operations under UN, where Zipkin could be easier integrated with NATO and other systems inside operations, where is also air force involved. But even in that case they don't need much of them. Maybe 20 to 30 for units rotations.
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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:23 am

    If a Russian system can be integrated into the Russian AD network I don't think they would care if it is compatible with a NATO network... and even with Turkish hardware I doubt NATO would allow them access to a NATO system.

    Look at the ABM systems as an example... they wont want a shared system, they will want two separate systems that share info.

    I suspect these systems were just for testing and I rather doubt there will be purchases in the future.
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    GarryB

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    Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:50 am



    Russia will not stock up on foreign-made arms - Medvedev


    President Dmitry Medvedev said on Monday that Russia would only buy small amounts of foreign-made weapons.

    Speaking during a meeting with army servicemen in Vladikavkaz in southern Russia, Medvedev said Russia may buy only some foreign-made arms “so that we have an idea of how foreign armies are equipped and that our producers can make the best arms.”

    “Make no doubt about it, we will continue equipping the army,” he said. “We have significant, unprecedented, large amounts of money to that end.”

    The Russian government has pledged 22 trillion rubles ($730 billion) for its state arms procurement program through 2020.

    Source: http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20111121/168897773.html
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    medo

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:34 pm

    So, by those words from Medvedev, Russia could actually buy few examples of Zipkin like one battery of 6 vehicles for evaluations and for air force training, where it could simulate Avanger, Aspic, Ozelot, Zipkin and other similar western SAMs.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:02 pm

    I suspect the suggestion on wiki that Russia will buy the system and put it into service is based on the fact that they have already bought a small batch for testing.

    I rather expect the further acquisition of such systems would be very unlikely and when testing is complete because these are not armoured vehicles that could be used for weapons testing I would expect some backwater unit will get them equipped with Igla missiles of course, and they will use them till they are worn out at which time they will not upgrade them, they will simply discard them and upgrade to the contemporary Russian system... likely strelets... which will likely have been given an upgrade based on the new ideas taken from testing and operational experience and of course their own ideas and expertise.

    Austin

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:05 am

    The Janus Faced new Radar of Pantsir-S1 is a PESA and not an AESA.

    Merry Christmas to all


    Barnaul-T" Air-Def Command - Control System in Chechnya

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    medo

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    Barnaul-T" Air-Def Command - Control System in Chechnya

    Post  medo on Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:59 am

    Interesting video. Thank you.

    Merry Chistmas to all

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