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    Russian VSHORADS Thread

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    TR1

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:05 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Why are they making separate two stage missiles for Pantsir and Sosna, is what I want to know.

    The answer to your question should really incorporate the subject matter I am trying to develop in this thread.

    Pantsir' and Sosna are missile systems of two different tiers, like apples and oranges.

    Pantsir' is a component of the air defense organic to the maneuver brigades/regiments; Sosna is for use in support groupings, e.g., air defense of artillery brigades and long-range SAM brigades.

    Fair enough, but the question is relevant because the Pantsir's selling point (well, one of) is that the missiles are in comparison to similar or rough analgoues...are very cheap. Size is not very different, unless I am mistaken?
    The rest of the system can be different, due to roles and cost, but was there really no way to just use a common missile, instead of complicating an already nightmarish inventory diversity...not to mention a whole separate testing and production process.


    Asf

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:00 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Asf wrote:Actually Sosna missiles was developed as a new generation missles for Tunguska, but now it's a different short-range complex with it's own tactical purpose

    Considering that your statement can't be technically valid, do you have any evidence for your statement?

    May be i said it incorrectly. Originally missile we now know as Sosna-R was developed in a heavier class for new variant of Tunguska. So Tunguska/Pantsir and Sosna actually very similar but still has different tactical purpose

    If you don't believe me, look here. Or А.В. Карпенко, "Современные самоходные зенитные установки".


    Last edited by Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:46 am

    TR1 wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Why are they making separate two stage missiles for Pantsir and Sosna, is what I want to know.
    The answer to your question should really incorporate the subject matter I am trying to develop in this thread.

    Pantsir' and Sosna are missile systems of two different tiers, like apples and oranges.

    Pantsir' is a component of the air defense organic to the maneuver brigades/regiments; Sosna is for use in support groupings, e.g., air defense of artillery brigades and long-range SAM brigades.

    Fair enough, but the question is relevant because the Pantsir's selling point (well, one of) is that the missiles are in comparison to similar or rough analgoues...are very cheap. Size is not very different, unless I am mistaken?
    The rest of the system can be different, due to roles and cost, but was there really no way to just use a common missile, instead of complicating an already nightmarish inventory diversity...not to mention a whole separate testing and production process.

    Russians love a "nightmarish" inventory diversity. The more the merrier. It is the most unmistakable sign of massive capability.

    The intention is to make sure that a common missile is not used. If there was missile commonality, I wouldn't even write this post; it wouldn't have been worth it.

    Actually in this thread I'll eventually talk about four other classes of missile systems that go with these missile; they would be the Tor follow-on class, the Strela-10 follow-on class (Bagul'nik class), a counterpart to Bagul'nik but at the Sosna tier (Vega missile system class), and MANPADS. In this thread, I don't plan to talk about the directed energy and other exotic air-defense systems that are counterparts of these more conventional systems..

    In term of size and many other characteristics these systems are very different.

    Pantsir' bi-caliber missiles are of 100 mm/170 mm, 100/210 mm, and ... caliber; they are follow-ons to Tunguska bi-caliber missiles of 90 mm/152 mm caliber.

    Sosna bi-caliber missiles are of 72 mm/130 mm caliber; they are a "new" class of missile. Note that the second stage caliber of 72 mm is chosen to make it developmentally compatible with seekers that could be shared with 72 mm caliber MANPADS (in some of it infinite variants).

    A small export 57Eh6-E missile for Pantsir' has a mass of 75.7 kg; an export 9M340Eh missile for Sosna has a mass of 30 kg. As you can see they are from very different classes.

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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:49 am

    Asf wrote:
    If you don't believe me, look here. Or А.В. Карпенко, "Современные самоходные зенитные установки".

    Actually, I suggest that you look at the link that you provided.

    Asf

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:31 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Asf wrote:
    If you don't believe me, look here. Or А.В. Карпенко, "Современные самоходные зенитные установки".

    Actually, I suggest that you look at the link that you provided.

    It says: "Originally (Sosna-R) missile was being created for Tunguska... blablabla... For Sosna complex it was minituarised... blablabla"
    It's exactly what I am saying.
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    medo

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:40 pm

    Sosna-R missile is smaller and use laser guidance, comparing to Tunguska and Pantsir missiles, which use radio guidance.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:15 am

    Garry posted this photo of Sonsa turret in the ground forces photos and news thread:



    ...I honestly believe the missiles are small enough to justify more than 12 missiles, 24 missiles (preferably 30) are better especially considering you don't have the leverage of range (with engagement range at 10km) you have to make up for that with more missiles imho.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:09 am

    A light slim missile is ideal for ground to air use but to give it initial speed putting the fuel inside the missile makes it heavier and higher drag. The solution is to make it long and thin with a rear mounted rocket booster that rapidly accelerates the missile to a high speed and then falls away.

    The booster rockets already existed... they are for sounding rockets to check different altitudes for weather conditions.

    By moving all the propulsion to the booster rocket the main missile can be thinner, which means very low drag, it wont change weight in flight which makes steering simpler and also the centre of gravity does not shift like it does in Vikhr as its rocket motor burns down.

    SOSNA-R uaes laser beam riding much like Kornet, while the SA-19/SA-22 uses command guidance all the way to the target like TOR does. Hermes, which is related to SA-22, will have some sort of terminal guidance on the missile... like SALH or MMW radar, or IIR, or indeed Glonass.

    Each has their advantages and problems... SOSNA-R is cheap and light weight... but would be limited in range and to line of sight targets. Command guidance requires very precise tracking of the target and launched missile to make sure they meet... Pantsir-S1 has cm wave and MMW radar and Thermal optics, while TOR has very expensive (for its time) 3D search radar and phased array tracking radar. Hermes's terminal guidance is the most expensive but offers a range of targeting options which means flexibility and ECCM capabilities.

    Also, the circumstantial evidence supports that the Russians still have plans for the 14.5X114, in spite of the fact that everybody else would happily be willing to settle with just the 12.7X108.

    It is a very powerful and effective cartridge... with modern sighting systems it should remain effective for some time to come.

    A 23 x 115mm weapon would have a much heavier HE payload and with a APFSDS round offer far better penetration. The main problem would be you couldn't mix these two ammo types on the same belt because the HE will be low velocity (approx 700m/s) while the APFSDS round will be much higher velocity... though limited with the short barrel (maybe 1,200m/s but with an effective heavy little penetrator). this would mean that simple iron sights would not work... you would need EO sights with computed crosshairs for the different ammo types.

    1- The 23X115 is a sub-optimal surface-based antiaircraft round, even though it's an optimal bomber defense weapon, a la in the AM-23 guns in Tu-95 aircraft; the 14.5X114 is a lot better as a surface-based AA round.

    The 23 x115mm round was designed to be a low recoil high rate of fire round that didn't have a high velocity, but carried a heavy HE payload. With modern tracking and ranging systems high velocity to get short time of flight to target for a high hit probability is no longer needed. Especially against helos.

    I would suggest in combat the guns would be primarily used against ground targets or while the missiles are being reloaded. ground targets and helicopters wont care whether the 23mm shells arrived at 400m/s or 900m/s... it will be the HE content that does the damage and the sophisticated fire control system that ensured a hit.

    Against armoured aircraft the APFSDS rounds could be burst fired too.


    2- A run-of-the-mill APFSDS version of 23X115 would not offer much of an improvement over a run-of-the-mill 14.5X114; after all, think about the relationship between these two rounds and their respective barrel diameters. It definitely wouldn't be worth the effort to deploy them when there are so many better options.

    I strongly disagree. The 15.5 x 114mm round made by the Europeans based on the 14.5mm round had penetration figures of 40mm penetration at 1km range. The 23mm cannon round has a larger barrel which allows more energy, which means more propellent and higher energy propellent can be used to further improve performance.

    South African pilots flying MiG-23s commented on how powerful and accurate their twin 23mm cannons were... they were impressed.

    3- I think the modifications using 23X115 based weapons on ground-based vehicles, shown in some arm shows, are just for export, for special niches (low probability), or for the heck of it.

    I disagree. When an armour piercing round is no longer effective in its primary role it is often relegated to infantry support... for which slower heavier projectiles are better suited. A KPB, which is a KPV rebored to 23mm calibre offers huge potential to increase the potency of the weapon against infantry with rather more powerful HE projectiles, able to use the same ammo feeds and the same mounts... all they need are recalibrated sights for the HE rounds. In roles where engaging enemy armour or air power is likely then EO sights and dual feed mounts with HE and APFSDS feeds wont break the bank.

    Afterall the Hind has gone from single barrel 12.7mm, four barrel 12.7mm, twin barrel 30mm, to twin barrel 23mm. The 23mm offers stand off range, good HE power, excellent rate of fire and light weight, and compact ammo without the excessive recoil of the 30mm weapon. In terms of weapon weight we are talking about going from 25kg for the single barrel 12.7 to 45kgs and then 60kgs for the two model 12.7mm gatlings, then 126kgs for the twin barrel 30mm, then 50.5kgs for the twin 23mm gun in a chin turret.

    Fair enough, but the question is relevant because the Pantsir's selling point (well, one of) is that the missiles are in comparison to similar or rough analgoues...are very cheap. Size is not very different, unless I am mistaken?

    The command guidance of the Pantsir requires a sophisticated launch platform that is not light or cheap. The missiles are cheap dumb robots and can be fired in enormous numbers cheaply.
    The laser beam riding guidance of SOSNA-R is also relatively cheap but it is also much simpler as the launch platform just follows the target with its beam. the missile looks back at the launch platform and determines its position in the beam and manouvers itself into the centre of the beam. the missile is not so dumb but no vulnerable optical ports pointed at the target.

    equally the launch platform can be very sophisticated or much simpler... they generally have no radar so they tend to be simpler and cheaper with all weather optics for detection and tracking.

    The laser beam riding is also limited in max range to about 10-12km or so, while the command guidance of Panstir is not limited at all.

    Russians love a "nightmarish" inventory diversity. The more the merrier. It is the most unmistakable sign of massive capability.

    Actually the reality is different. Most in the west see the competition winners... the AK, the AKM, the AK-74M, the AN-94 and think there is no competition in the Soviet Union or Russia. the reality is starkly different.. SOSNA exists at the same time Tunguska and Pantsir exists because SOSNA is made by a different company... in fact a company that makes Strela-10M.

    ie:  http://www.kbtochmash.com/products-eng/products-eng1/

    The intention is to make sure that a common missile is not used. If there was missile commonality, I wouldn't even write this post; it wouldn't have been worth it.

    There is missile commonality... SA-19/SA-22 and Hermes are made by the same company and their design is unified.

    Sosna bi-caliber missiles are of 72 mm/130 mm caliber; they are a "new" class of missile. Note that the second stage caliber of 72 mm is chosen to make it developmentally compatible with seekers that could be shared with 72 mm caliber MANPADS (in some of it infinite variants).

    Important that the SOSNAR missiles are 30kgs each... about the weight of Kornet... while the missile in the launch tube is about 42kgs and therefore able to be hand loaded by 2-3 troops.

    It says: "Originally (Sosna-R) missile was being created for Tunguska... blablabla... For Sosna complex it was minituarised... blablabla"
    It's exactly what I am saying.

    Smile

    So we all agree Tunguska replaced Shilka and supported SA-13, while TOR was to replace OSA. SOSNA R will likely replace SA-13 and Tunguska where Tunguska is too heavy. Not because SOSNA-R is cheap, but because it is lighter.

    Likely in medium and heavy units Pantsir-S1 type systems on tracked chassis will replace Tunguska, while Morfei might replace SA-13 in those heavy units and SOSNA-R in lighter units.

    Garry posted this photo of Sonsa turret in the ground forces photos and news thread:

    Now that I look at that photo.. the sensors in the middle... the lower ones look like optical sensors, but the upper sensor looks like a radar apature... like the mmw radar apatures for the new model ARENA APS.

    there was this photo too:

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    George1

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  George1 on Sun May 10, 2015 2:04 am

    is there any plan for Igla-S or Verba SAM systems on Kurganetz-25 chasis? or in Tigr?
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun May 10, 2015 6:07 am

    I think there'll definately be an airdefence vehicle on the Kurganets chassis but I doubt it's a priority item
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 10, 2015 11:29 am

    MANPADS are very effective weapons but generally lack effective range over other more capable SHORADS like Pantsir-SM and TOR.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  George1 on Mon May 11, 2015 6:46 pm

    Strela-10 in Volgograd parade

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    George1

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  George1 on Tue May 19, 2015 1:33 pm

    State Trials of Russia’s 'Sosna' Air Defense System to Begin in Summer



    The new short-range air defense system Sosna can eliminate all types of air threats including high-precision weapons like cruise missiles and guided aircraft missiles.

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) – State trials of Russia’s new short-range air defense missile system will begin in summer 2015, Tochmash design bureau told RIA Novosti on Tuesday.

    The system, dubbed Sosna, is expected to replace Strela-10M air defense systems in service with the Russian armed forces.

    “Last year, we successfully completed the preliminary tests of this system. In summer, the state trials of the system at testing grounds of the Land forces will begin,” Tochmash Managing Director Vladimir Slobodchikov said.

    “The outcome of the trials will determine whether this system will be put in service with the Russian Army,” Slobodchikov said.

    According to Tochmash, the Sosna system “is intended to protect against all types of air threats including high-precision weapons like cruise missiles and guided aircraft missiles in the area of the system responsibility: in range – up to 10 km, in altitude – up to 5 km.”

    Slobodchikov noted that a number of foreign countries, including those of the South-East Asia region and the Middle East, have shown interest in acquiring the Russian Sosna system.

    Sosna participated in recent military exhibitions in South Africa and United Arab Emirates and will be exhibited in Peru and Brunei.

    "Everyone is following this newest system very closely and waiting for the completion of state trials in Russia," Slobodchikov noted.

    Russia, Belarus to Develop New Air Defense System


    Russia’s Tochmash design bureau will take part in the development of a new short-range air defense system together with Belarus, the Tochmash Managing Director said.

    “We are planning a joint project in the framework of the Union State of Russia and Belarus to develop a new short-range air defense system,” Slobodchikov said, adding that the work is expected to start in 2016.

    Russia and Belarus are closely integrated and are co-members of several regional supranational unions.

    The most comprehensive of these, the Union State, includes consolidation of the countries’ foreign and defense policies.

    As part of their close military cooperation, the two countries coordinate air defense systems and routinely conduct joint military drills, both on a bilateral basis and as part of the six-member Collective Security Treaty Organization.

    Russia’s Tochmash design bureau is a leading research institute specializing in the development and manufacturing of military equipment. Established in 1934, the company now operates under Russian nuclear corporation Rosatom.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20150519/1022302967.html#ixzz3aaDAyMj8
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue May 19, 2015 5:13 pm

    And here is what they showed about the SOSNA system at the exhibition in Peru.

    http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/1052268.html
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    George1

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  George1 on Tue May 19, 2015 5:43 pm

    chasis will be mt-lb or kurganets?
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Tue May 19, 2015 6:29 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:And here is what they showed about the SOSNA system at the exhibition in Peru.

    http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/1052268.html

    That translator girl can sign me up for a Sosna system any day of the week Laughing
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue May 19, 2015 7:34 pm

    One of the few non-CGI photos of SOSNA:



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    medo

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  medo on Tue May 19, 2015 9:54 pm

    It' about time to get Strela-10 replacement. I hope Sosna will get in production as soon as possible.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue May 19, 2015 10:52 pm

    A couple of more images:





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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue May 19, 2015 11:28 pm

    Great find Magnum and Morpheus thumbsup

    flamming_python wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:And here is what they showed about the SOSNA system at the exhibition in Peru.

    http://i-korotchenko.livejournal.com/1052268.html

    That translator girl can sign me up for a Sosna system any day of the week Laughing

    Mmmm...delicious pirat

    Some local talent...

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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue May 19, 2015 11:54 pm

    medo wrote:It' about time to get Strela-10 replacement. I hope Sosna will get in production as soon as possible.

    I don't know, both Strela-10 and Osa should be still useful with a cheap and effective modernization...this makes sense when you realize there are hundreds of Strela-10's and Osa is service, those vehicles will still be effective defeating a mass tactical nuclear cruise missile attack!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 20, 2015 9:32 am

    Likely the SOSNA-R system is fairly modular and will consist of the turret and some screens and computer boxes in the hull of that MT-LB.

    That would mean that when operating with a Boomerang or Typhoon or Kurganets unit they could use a software upgrade/patch to use existing crew terminals with a few computer boxes in the rear hull and of course the standard turret.

    I rather suspect Kurganets, Boomerang and armata might have pantsir instead because it is a larger and more capable system while Sosna might be used for airborne units and typhoon units to keep the weight down.

    I don't know, both Strela-10 and Osa should be still useful with a cheap and effective modernization...this makes sense when you realize there are hundreds of Strela-10's and Osa is service, those vehicles will still be effective defeating a mass tactical nuclear cruise missile attack!

    Might sound strange but the Sosna will likely be cheaper than the Strela-10M and comparable to the OSA as the Strela-10M has an IR seeker, while the Osa is command guided.... the sosna would be a more capable system with double the range of Strela-10M and higher speed and likely better resistence to the countermeasures of the target... and as can be seen from the models and actual vehicles able to carry more ready to fire missiles.

    The older systems can be sold off over time but would still be very capable systems in their own right.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu May 21, 2015 2:57 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    medo wrote:It' about time to get Strela-10 replacement. I hope Sosna will get in production as soon as possible.

    I don't know, both Strela-10 and Osa should be still useful with a cheap and effective modernization...this makes sense when you realize there are hundreds of Strela-10's and Osa is service, those vehicles will still be effective defeating a mass tactical nuclear cruise missile attack!

    Well, some Strela-10's will be staying around for a while yet in upgraded form....72 of them according to the below report

       


    Russia's armed forces to receive upgraded SAM 'Strela-10M4'

    Director of "Precision Engineering Design Bureau - AE Nudelman" Vladimir Slobodchikov said:

    "Last year, to the Russian Airborne Troops were delivered the first batch of 18 'Strela-10M4'. "It is planned to deliver a total 72 systems. The rest will be transferred during 2015 and 2016. This involves the modernization of existing vehicles as new ones are not made.

    Improving technology extends the "life" of the SAM for 3-5 years. "Those"Strela-10" that will not be upgraded, are likely to be removed from service - to be replaced by "Sosna" and the new Russian-Belarusian complex. "Strela-10" is a good complex, but obsolete. First of all, it's max range is 5 km. For comparison, the range of "Sosna" - 10 kilometers, "- he explained.

    http://www.i-mash.ru/news/nov_otrasl/66497-vooruzhennye-sily-rossii-poluchat.html


    STRELA-10M4 Specs & pic


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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:09 pm

    Air defense systems "Sosna" will be placed on a small ship

    So Gibka but with 12 Missiles? good choice for small boats especially when used with Verbas
    Pine = Sosna



    http://minpromtorg.gov.ru/press-centre/all/#!zenitnye_raketnye_kompleksy_sosna_planiruetsya_razmeshhat_na_nebolshih_korablyah
    Precision Engineering Design Bureau named. AE Nudelman develops option to install its newest anti-aircraft missile complex "Pine" on small displacement vehicles.

    "We have created marine complexes" Palma "have a serious weight: 6.9 tonnes at ZAC" Palma "and up to 7.2 tons - at SPAR" Palma ". These complexes can be equipped with only vessels with a displacement of 500 tons. At present, we are working on the issue of installing small ships with a displacement of less than 500 tons of military unit from SAM "Pine". The ship immediately gets new qualities defeats the purpose - in range and height, respectively, 10 and 5 kilometers, "- told RIA" Novosti "deputy general director of" high-precision systems, "the managing director of CB Tochmash Vladimir Slobodchikov.

    According to him, mounted on small vehicles complex will be able to shoot and airplanes and helicopters, and surface and ground targets. The complex includes the same rocket, which is equipped with land and "Pine". The cost of a new air defense system will be significantly lower than the cost, "Palm", the developers.

    The automated anti-aircraft missile complex "Pine" can be used effectively at any time, in conditions of reduced visibility, with the possible presence of natural and man-made interference. Through the use of high-precision automatic optical-electronic system provided by stealth and automation of combat operation. Target detection is performed off-line using opto-electronic system and in external targeting. Anti-aircraft missile complex "Pine" was created as a deep modernization of air defense missile systems "Strela-10". Distinctive features of the new version: increased firing range - from 5 to 10 kilometers and height - from 3.5 to 5 kilometers.

    Founded in 1934, Precision Engineering Design Bureau named. AE Nudelman (included in the holding "Highly complex" State Corporation Rostec) creates systems and systems of weapons and military equipment. Develop them for the benefit of almost all branches of the armed forces. Design departments work mainly in the following areas: high-precision systems for aerospace defense, guided missiles for armored vehicles, air defense tactical level for the Army and Navy guided artillery rounds for artillery systems, laser subjects.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian VSHORADS Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:42 am

    Gibka is merely a MANPADS mount firing 6km range mach 2.5 or so IR guided missiles.

    In comparison SOSNA has 10km range mach 3+ laser beam riding missiles... much faster, much longer range... it will likely be on a Palma mount with 30mm gatlings...

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