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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    TR1

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:10 am

    50 billion?

    Sheeeesh.
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    George1

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:26 am

    it would be better to proceed with the next cruiser class
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:41 am

    50 billion roubles is not that much money for the modern capable cruiser that will result.

    There is, and its rusting away in the far east, no way such a large ship can be economical vial to perform EW/ Intel operations.
    "
    Due to high operating costs, SSV-33 was laid up.[2]

    It is largely just a hull and major structure... It was laid up for the purpose that it might be useful in the future.

    As for him, other two ships of this project, Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Ushakov are non-repairable and will be dismantled.

    Which leaves the Admiral Nakhimov and the Peter the Great.

    Using the hull of the SVV-33 means they have the potential for three upgraded vessels.

    With unified sensors and weapons and machinery it should be much cheaper and easier to operate these vessels than before as the equipment and weapons and machinery is standardised throughout the navy. The same UKSK launch bins on a Russian corvette will be the same as the UKSK launch bins on Peter the Great.

    The difference is that the Corvette might have one UKSK launcher, while the PTG might have 10 or more.

    However, naval arms expert and chief editor of Arms Export magazine Andrei Frolov says feasibility of Admiral Nakhimov's recovery is quite questionable. He emphasized that the money planned for retrofitting of the cruiser is well enough to buy a new Mistral-class French amphibious ship.

    But they are already buying 4 Mistrals... they have no need for another.

    What they lack are cruisers to escort and protect the Kuznetsov or the Mistrals, so it makes sense to upgrade two Orlan class vessels.

    "These large ships are pretty vulnerable to present-day weapons. Besides, they were built in Soviet era, so will serve no longer than 15 years even after modernization. After that, the cruisers will be decommissioned anyway", explained Frolov.

    A full overhaul should enable these vessels to operate for another 30-40 years and the new sensors and weapon systems will dramatically improve their ability to defend themselves and other vessels near them, and their ability to attack.

    According to Northern Fleet HQ, after recovery Admiral Nakhimov will need large crew, but it is not clear wh ere to find personnel.

    There is huge potential for automation to reduce crew requirements. The vast reduction in the use of single use sensors and equipment should make it much more effective and require a lot less crew to operate.

    At present, there are three Project 1164 Atlant cruisers in Russian Navy; they are Moskva, Varyag, and Marshall Ustinov. In addition, Russia hold talks with Ukraine regarding purchase of similar cruiser Ukraina (former Admiral Flota Lobov). By the way, Atlant-class cruisers are designed for the same tasks as Admiral Nakhimov, writes Izvestiya.

    They are the much less capable Slava class vessels that have external missile launchers. The upgrade of the Slava class is much more problematic because the new missile launchers are vertical launch bin launchers. On the Orlan it is a case of newer more compact vertical launch bins replacing vertical launch rotary launch systems and inclined vertical launch bins. Removing the old systems leaves plenty of space for the new systems. On the Slava removal of the old missiles from on top of the deck leaves no room for UKSK vertical bin launchers or Redut SAM launchers.

    Slava class boats are also much smaller, with a lot less room for systems and weapons and sensors.

    50 billion?

    About 1.5 billion US... about 1/10th the cost of a new US carrier.

    It is actually pretty cheap as it includes both a thorough overhaul and full upgrade of sensors, electronics, weapons, and machinery.

    To scratch build an equivalent (which admittedly would be better) will take at least 10 to 15 years instead of the 5 this will take... and in 15 years it will likely make 1.5 billion US look cheap.

    it would be better to proceed with the next cruiser class

    Things are improving but at the moment they can't even manage a destroyer let alone a cruiser. The upgrade makes sense for now.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  runaway on Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:What they lack are cruisers to escort and protect the Kuznetsov or the Mistrals, so it makes sense to upgrade two Orlan class vessels.

    Agree, there is simply no choise. When they decided to buy Mistrals they also guaranteed the recovery of one or two Orlans. Simply because no other ship will have the endurance and capability to follow and protect high value assets in blue ocean.
    The same can be said about K, no corvette or frigate can escort or protect her to a high level.
    Not much much point having Mistrals and K, but cant send them anywhere cose they cant be protected. Then they have a toy navy for admiral brass to play with.

    Also iam concerned about Atalant, Slavas. How to install modern USUK on this class?
    That is a near impossible task, and regretteble i see no future plans for these ships.

    The Orlans however, can be rebuilt and modernized for a very long time. And they have much greater potential in that that the Iowas ever had.

    I can predict that if they want to base 1 or 2 Mistrals in Pacific, they will have to modernize Nakhimov and base her there too. And as Gary said, with new systems on board, automation can lower her crew number alot.

    Now the Frunze and Kirov, i suspect Frunze or Lazarev as it is called will also be called back to ranks. The first Kirov i suspect will face scrapping.
    Simply, if u want to have one or two Orlans in service, u need three to guarantee they will be operational when they are nedded, and not in a refit.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:18 pm

    Why doesn't 1155 have the endurance neccesary to escort Mistral?
    or 22350? Or the perspective destroyer?

    Nakhimov might be worth patching up.
    The others are in terrible shape. Saw some recent photos from Lazarev, that thing looks worse than Ushakov.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:50 pm

    Also iam concerned about Atalant, Slavas. How to install modern USUK on this class?
    That is a near impossible task, and regretteble i see no future plans for these ships.

    The Orlans however, can be rebuilt and modernized for a very long time. And they have much greater potential in that that the Iowas ever had.

    The Slavas will be a challenge... it really depends on what is below decks beneath the above deck weapon launchers.

    I rather suspect that as a command ship as backup in case the orlan class failed they were filled with electronics and that replacing all that with new wiring and more modern more capable smaller and more compact systems space might become available for vertical launch systems that penetrate the deck. Again with automation and a huge reduction in the number of sensors and systems (those old soviet ships had several radar systems for each weapon type including search and tracking radars, whereas modern multifunction systems can replace it all).

    They wont be as formidible as the Orlans, but with a compact nuclear propulsion system their performance will be greatly improved too.

    If they are putting nuclear propulsion in destroyers then they will likely do the same for their cruisers.

    The Iowas were massive heavy battleships with enormous crews even after upgrades their main purpose was their guns.

    The purpose behind upgrading the Orlans is their capacity for weapons and sensors as command vessels.

    I can predict that if they want to base 1 or 2 Mistrals in Pacific, they will have to modernize Nakhimov and base her there too. And as Gary said, with new systems on board, automation can lower her crew number alot.

    Now the Frunze and Kirov, i suspect Frunze or Lazarev as it is called will also be called back to ranks. The first Kirov i suspect will face scrapping.
    Simply, if u want to have one or two Orlans in service, u need three to guarantee they will be operational when they are nedded, and not in a refit.

    Normally three would be a minimum, but in this case I suspect most of the time the Orlans will be escorting groups that include the Kuznetsov.

    In such a case I would probably base one Orlan in the Northern Fleet with the Kuznetsov and one in the Pacific fleet to lead any task force that might include mistrals.

    With only one full carrier (K) it would make sense to manage the upgrades and refits so that whenever the K is available to sail that at least one Orlan is also available to join her.

    With the upgrades to the K and the Orlans the machinery and sensors and weapons will be largely unified which should make maintainence and support and operations much cheaper and easier... the UKSK bins in the corvettes are the same bins as in the frigates and the destroyers and the cruisers and even the helicopter carriers... where previously the Slavas had SS-N-12 Sandbox missiles, and the Kirovs had the SS-N-19 Granit missiles and totally different propulsion systems and totally different sensors. It was a mess.

    Why doesn't 1155 have the endurance neccesary to escort Mistral?
    or 22350? Or the perspective destroyer?

    Endurance is not just measured in on board fuel... it is measured in weapons capacity and the amount of food that can be carried.

    The enormous weight of weapons on an upgraded orlan means it can do more than just defend itself... it can defend a large area of sea around it too.

    Even assuming the 1155 with its 8 heavy anti sub weapons got 4 UKSK launchers, that means 32 missiles that can be a combination of anti ship, land attack, and anti sub.

    One Orlan will have more than double the number of launch tubes which gives it more options. It will also have a lot more anti aircraft missiles. Its radars and sensors will be larger with longer detection ranges. Even just the fact that it carries one more helo (3 instead of 2) is more useful. (Two is actually rather better than one, while three is better than two it is not as much better than two as two is of one...)

    Don't get me wrong the Orlans wont be super ships... there will be other ships in the group too but the Orlans will have a presence that no smaller ship could match.

    They wont be cheap but they will serve the Russian Navy well for the next 20-30 years at the least and will mean that in 10-15 years time when new Russian carriers are being looked at they can look at new cruisers to escort them rather than having to rush a new design in now.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:15 pm

    Admiral Nakimov will enter RuAN in 2018

    Armament modernization will be extensive so I guess Kalibr/S-400/(perhaps S-300/Morfei)/Vityaz/Vulkan or Onix and Kalibr 

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  runaway on Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:29 am

    "
    MOSCOW, June 13 (RIA Novosti) – The Admiral Nakhimov, a nuclear-powered missile cruiser currently being overhauled and modernized, will rejoin the Russian Navy in 2018 with the most advanced weapons systems for its vessel type, the Sevmash shipyard said Thursday.
    The Kirov-class cruiser, known as the Kalinin until 1992, was commissioned in 1989 and mothballed in 1999. It has since been docked for upgrades at the Sevmash shipyard in the northern Russian city of Severodvinsk, on the White Sea.
    Sevmash deputy head Sergei Marichev said in a statement that the Admiral Nakhimov would become the most advanced heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser in the Russian Navy."

    By 2018, it will be the Only heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser in the Russian Navy... Very Happy

    Good news, now some specifics would be nice!
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:21 am

    Most advanced weapons of its class would mean UKSK vertical launchers, naval Pantsir-S1 replacing the Kashtans, and perhaps Vityaz/Redut...

    I wonder if they will fit a new nuclear power plant so it wont need to worry about refuelling all the time...


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:58 pm

    Why would it be the only nuclear-powered cruiser?
    Peter the Great isn't going anywhere.
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    The Admiral Nakhimov

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:28 pm

    Why would it be the only nuclear-powered cruiser?
    Peter the Great isn't going anywhere.

    I think he is referring to the fact that they will likely replace the old reactor combined with boilers to super heat steam to drive the gas turbine propulsion with newer more powerful nuclear reactors developed for new carriers that should greatly improve performance with a far more compact design.

    Until Peter the Great goes through a similar upgrade it will be the only nuclear only powered Russian cruiser.

    Just focussing on the armament:

    Main weapons strike: 20 P-700 Granit supersonic long range anti ship missiles

    Air defence: Long range: S-300F launchers with 96 missiles (Peter the great has S-300FM)
                      Short range: 2 x Osa-MA launchers with about 20 missiles each replaced with TOR
                                        
    Anti Sub: SS-N-14 with anti sub and anti ship capability.
                   RBU rocket launchers firing anti sub rockets, anti diver rockets and anti torpedo rockets replaced with SS-N-15.
                   10 x 21 inch torpedo/missile tubes able to launch torpedoes or SS-N-15 ASW missiles (later replaced the SS-N-14).

    Gun armament: 2 single barrel 100mm gun turrets replaced by two twin 130mm gun                  turrets.
                            8 x 30mm gatling mounts later with Kashtan added.

    Likely upgrades will replace the SS-N-15, SS-N-14, and SS-N-19 with UKSK launch bins for a likely total of about 80 missiles. The SAMs will likely have the Rif and Rif-M replaced with Redut, TOR replaced with upgraded TOR, 30mm gatling guns replaced with Duet turrets and Kashtan replaced with Pantsir-S1. RBU rockets will likely be replaced with PAKET, and the main gun armament will likely be twin barrel 152mm Koaltion guns or possibly bigger guns of 203mm calibre.

    New electronics and a revision of the radar suite fitted and it should be a very capable ship.


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    Cruiser Admiral Nakhimov to be recommissioned

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:05 am

    The cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" upgrade







    Sevmash has signed a contract with the Ministry of Defence to repair and upgrade the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov"

    The document signed by the Deputy Minister of Defence of the Russian Federation Yuri Borisov and CEO of OAO "PO" Sevmash "Michael Budnichenko. Tactical and technical requirements for the modernization of "Admiral Nakhimov" approved Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. The primary goal of the company - the conclusion of a contract to develop the project of modernization cruisers, who will perform "Northern Design Bureau". "Now the company has begun the preparatory phase: installation of systems engineering support, inspection and flaw detection equipment and steam-turbine plant, as well as the dismantling of components and assemblies. 70 percent of the dismantled equipment must be replaced, "- said the head of repairs, upgrades and warranty supervision of" PO "Sevmash" Sergei Khviyuzov.


    As the first deputy general director of OAO "PO" Sevmash "Sergei Marichev, the amount of work on a heavy nuclear missile cruiser is comparable with the level of repairs and modernization of aircraft carrier" Vikramaditya ". "Admiral Nakhimov" has to be the most modern TARK in the Navy. It will be equipped with modern weapons that have passed the test.


    The nearest major milestone for the ship - docking in waterworks. It is scheduled for 2014. In accordance with the signed agreement the ship should enter into service in the Navy in 2018.


    For the record:


    Heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" the third ship of the series construction of "Baltic Shipyard" (St. Petersburg). It was founded in 1982. Navy commissioned 10 May 1989 The designer - JSC "Northern Design Bureau" (St. Petersburg). According to the decision of the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Economy of the Russian Federation, and in accordance with state contract to the waters of "PO" Sevmash "transferred 14 August 1999 and accepted in the average factory scheduled maintenance.



    Catherine Pilikin


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:34 pm

    This will be very interesting.

    I suspect certain choices are obvious like the UKSK launcher bins for Calibre/Oniks/Yakhont/Moskit/Klub series AShM/LACM/ASW missiles.

    Replacing Kashtan with Pantsir-S1 is logical, and Duet for the AK-630 gun turrets, while the SAM arrangement will also be interesting with the question of Redut probably replacing Rif and Rif-M, but will there be an upgraded TOR or just more Redut bins, and will they install Morfei. Another question regarding SAMs is will it carry naval S-500... or should I ask will naval S-500 be ready by 2018 or will it be added later? Will it be fitted to be able to carry a Ka-52 as well as Ka-32s and will other UAVs be added?

    Otherwise the electronics and sensors and indeed powerplant might be a good indication of the sort of thing they will be putting on the Kuznetsov too.

    I suspect a simpler power system might be worth looking at based on the new compact reactors they are developing for carriers, which should be smaller and more compact than the current boiler reactor arrangement.

    Finally the guns... will it retain 130mm or go for 152mm or will there be a surprise and the 152s are for the Frigates and the new cruisers might be 203mm?

    I suspect the 152s are probably long enough ranged to make them very useful with perhaps two twin turrets on the upgraded vessels and lots and lots of ammo.

    Very good news all round.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:05 pm

    what about admiral lazarev?

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  a89 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:59 am

    Is it really worth upgrading a ~30 year old ship? in many forums people say that it would be better to acquire smaller and more flexible ships. I also wonder about the manpower requirements. 

    In any case, these Cold War dinosaurs are really nice to show the flag.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:43 am

    I think people are overestimating how many smaller ships can be bought for that money - probably no more than two 22350 frigates.
    There is potential for the Nakhmiov modernization to go past tieline and inflate in price, but lets just assume it manages to exceed neither by more than a third- I still think another large cruiser is needed in the RuNavy.
    These ships have the capabilities a smaller ship simply does not, and currently the RuNavy has a gap between its new frigates and is existing cruisers and large destroyers. No new destroyers will appear for some time anyways. Plus Peter the Great needs repairs, so dry dock time deprives the Navy of one of its few fully-well rounded ships.

    Nakhimov just by virtue of its size will have far bigger potential for larger, higher mounted radars, as well as command equipment. Finally Runavy has expressed interest in an anti-space role for its ships, and you wont be mounting big enough missiles on 4000-6000 ton ships. Then of course we have the flag showing potential, endurance, and valuable experience for Sevmash in retrofitting a cruiser. 

    Take 4-5 22350s, and you have a bunch of frigates.
    IMO, take Nakhmiov, and 2-3 frigates, and you have a Surface Action Group.

    It only served for 10 years anyways.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:28 am

    Great, its good that another Kirov class has been recomissioned. I hope it'll enter the pacific fleet which is in dire need of  active ships.

    However was it wise to recomission it without  the projected improvements. I personally would've preferred if it has been recomissioned a few years later after getting the UKSK launchers for the brahmos II.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:43 am

    Of course the ship is being modernized.

    It is in absolutely no state to be recommissioned right now, even if they did not want to modernize.
    They haven't even decided on the modernization project, I guess that will happen after it goes into Sevmash "dry dock".

    You can safely assume it will have UKSK.
    Also, why would a Russian ship use an export missile?
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:52 pm

    I assume it will have  whatever  hypersonic missile  based on the P-800.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Hachimoto on Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:10 pm

    I'll be happy the day russian shipbuilders could again build a new surface ship as big as the Kirovs.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  dionis on Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:12 pm

    A yawn-worthy pace to modernize a ship, even if it is a battlecruiser.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:57 pm

    The insides of the ship are largely unknown till they get it into drydock and have a decent look at her insides.

    From what I can tell if this is a major upgrade that will entail removing the existing nuclear and boiler propulsion arrangement to be replaced with new modern compact reactors developed for their new carriers. All the current weapons... and that is a substantial amount... are replaced with new generation versions, all the electronics and sensors are also to be replaced... this is going to be all new and will become the model for the upgrade of the Kuznetsov and the Peter the Great and the resulting vessel will be a very powerful surface combatant.

    The Sigma naval system is in many ways an AEGIS type system except the Russian navy is integrating the system into all their platforms from Corvette to Carrier and Sub to satellite. The resulting vessel will be much more capable than any other single vessel in service. Talk of 80 launch tubes for the UKSK system suggest the potential for a formidable strike capacity... likely to include Redut and S-500.

    A yawn-worthy pace to modernize a ship, even if it is a battlecruiser.

    Most of the stuff they are doing is untested... including the new reactors, not to mention the new EM assisted 152mm main guns. When this program is completed then they can start expanding and going for speed.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  a89 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:24 pm

    These ships have the capabilities a smaller ship simply does not, and currently the RuNavy has a gap between its new frigates and is existing cruisers and large destroyers. No new destroyers will appear for some time anyways. Plus Peter the Great needs repairs, so dry dock time deprives the Navy of one of its few fully-well rounded ships.


    Very interesting TR1. By he way, according to some news all 3 (Piotr Velikiy is already in service) will be modernized. Let's see if this takes place.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20100725/159939020.html
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:08 pm

    If they want carriers... and it seems they do... as there are no moves to scrap the Kuznetsov, then they will need ships to operate as part of a carrier battle group.

    Large ships are very expensive to build but with modern automated systems they don't need enormous crews.

    I doubt the Russian MIC could build a vessel this size from scratch right now... they are currently building the smaller vessels they need and are not pumping frigates and destroyers out at a huge rate yet either. It is going to take time naturally, so while they have some hulls available they are being very smart to take advantage of them and give them a good overhaul to get them into service much more quickly.

    By upgrading the existing Kirovs they are accepting the problems with the advantages... problems include lots of unknowns and limiting themselves to a hull shape that was developed some time ago which limits stealth performance. The Kirovs were already very clean designs already however and the fact that they are only upgrading these vessels rather than building them from scratch means they can move them more easily because they already float and are based on a proven design.

    The result is that they will get cruisers well before they otherwise would have been able to get them and likely much cheaper too.

    Capital ships for supporting carriers are powerful vessels in terms of sensors and weapons and are useful on their own so it makes sense to strive to get them first.

    Once they have done one the other two should be easier and quicker, though it is hard to say till they are actually cracked open.

    The huge radar arrays and weapons and electronics will be largely modular and so lessons learned with the first conversion will be applicable in the upgrade of the other two Kirovs but also with the upgrade of the Kuznetsov and indeed the new carriers that they haven't even finalised the design of... using modular components means they can fit together only in certain ways.

    The Kuznetsov is supposed to be going in for a refit soon and will be coming out in 2017-2018 so both vessels should be  ready around the same time... hope they decide to come to the South Pacific... Smile


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:44 pm

    Are there any shipyards being built on Russian soil that will be able to make battlecruiser sized ships?

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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