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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:29 am

    Would they fit vertically mounted?

    It is not a matter of dimensions. Extensive refit will be required to install UKSKs no matter what the dimensions are.

    Do older Oscars need more fire power?

    Hell yes. 24 missiles was awesome during the eighties. It is so-so in 21st century terms. It is mediocre for a 20,000 ton vessel if massive land attack strikes are called for.

    The US Fleet has become more capable but are also less of a threat

    Sizewise, the US fleet is a shadow of Reagan's 600 ship Navy. Of course, capabilities are greater now.
    But don't fool yourself, the US Armed forces are just as a threat towards Russia as it was towards the Soviet Union...You know what the US aims are.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:40 am

    A Kirov class vessel has the potential to show the flag or operate as the core of a carrier group, for which large numbers of a range of different types of missiles would be useful.
    You know, showing the flag means nothing in a shooting war.
    In peace time, "show the flag" effect of a battlecruiser is the same wheter it has Granits or UKSKs.

    The Oscar is and always was simply the backbone of an attack on a US carrier group. This role has diminished somewhat, but remains and might be transferred to a capablility against Chinese carriers... or Japanese ones.
    100% agreed. However, in the 21st century warfare, land attack is an extremely important mission and is a requirement for the Oscars (and submarines in general).

    You are assuming the SM-315 takes up the same space as a single SM-225A, which is a rather dubious assumption in my opinion.
    I am not assuming. The SM-315 are actually smaller than the SM-225A. They will fit in nicely without extensive refit. However, the current SM-315 can take Onyx only (no Kaliber), but I am sure they can solve that problem

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:49 am

    Are you suggesting that the Russians shared all the technology of the Yakhont to India?

    Yakhont, Onyx, Brahmos, Bolid and any other unknown offshoots are a family of missiles (just like the Klub). Yakhont was being developped in solo by the Russians and was displayed at a MAKS show in Moscow during the nineties. Later on a joint venture was established with the indians to develop the Brahmos. The Brahmos will not be used by the Russians who will use other members of the "Yakhont" family.
    We know there is an export Yakhont (Syria, Vietnam). We know Brahmos is also available for export to third party countries.
    We don't know much about the Russia-only members of that missile family such as the Onyx.
    I don't think every bit of technology (developped in Russia) is being made available for the Brahmos development. But everything that is developped at Brahmos can be made available to the Russia-only versions, and that includes land-attack version.

    Why spend money making Oniks able to hit land targets when Klub can do it from 2,000km?
    The only advantage that Onyx (land attack version) has is superior speed that can better penetrate sophisticated air defenses. Apart from that, Kaliber can do the job at a lower price.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:52 am

    How many Yasens are there in service? There is a reason this upgrade is cheap and uses "existing launchers". It makes it a relatively quick and cheap conversion.

    In another ten years, there will be at least as many Yasens as Oscars. Being more modern and quieter they will be assigned the more difficult and dangerous tasks such as neutralizing the oponent's naval battlegroups. While still having serious capabilities against taskforces, the older Oscars will be more inclined towards the land attack mode.
    That is my opinion.

    I think the quieter Yasens would be better in the role of protecting the SSBNs from enemy SSNs.

    Onyx missiles are useless for that role. Akulas and Sierras will be fine for that kind of duties.

    The Oscars on the other hand would be much more valuable in stopping enemy carrier groups closing to strike range of Russia and launching air attacks with tactical nuclear weapons.
    Oscars primary role was anticarrier strikes indeed. Now that they are getting old, I see the Onyx armed Yasens as their replacement. The Oscars will still participate in that role if necessary, but massive cruise missile land strikes are increasingly gaining importance, IMHO that will be their main role in the future.


    Long range strikes on the US are better left to SLBMs....
    In a nuclear exchange, SLBMs will do most of the talking. However, ABM defenses are getting more and more significant. A mix of SLBMs and nuclear tipped cruise missiles (Kaliber/Klub and Kh-102) is a better deterent.
    In a conventional scenario with a non-nuclear state....well, just rememebr the decapitating cruise missile strikes at the opening stages of the Iraqi and Libyan conflicts.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:03 pm

    I think it is pretty clear the main reason behind this sudden Granit replacement, is not a sudden realization in missile inadequacy, but something to do with missile life,

    Oniks has been on the books for some time, if the Granit didn't work they could have replaced it a while ago.

    The fact that they are changing now suggests stocks of missiles are getting close to expiry dates.

    The news article above says the missiles will be fitted to existing launchers and that the upgrade will not be extensive but allow an increase in missile numbers. I personally think an increase of 50% in numbers would warrant it being called an increase in numbers. Tripling the number of missiles would warrant a comment about a large increase in numbers (300%).

    It is not a matter of dimensions. Extensive refit will be required to install UKSKs no matter what the dimensions are.

    The news report you posted said:

    In this case he emphasized that for designers it was possible to place rockets in the same containers, in which are located the rockets of "Granit" , moreover without the alteration of housing, and even with an increase in the ammunition.

    Sounds like a minimal refit using the same containers... if they were tripling the number of missiles would they say "...even with an increase in ammunition"? I would think they would mention ammo supply was tripled if it was.

    Hell yes. 24 missiles was awesome during the eighties. It is so-so in 21st century terms. It is mediocre for a 20,000 ton vessel if massive land attack strikes are called for.

    Massive land attack strikes are fairly unlikely first of all, and second... during the entire Libyan campaign the west fired a total of about 120 cruise missiles... a battlegroup with a single Kirov could carry 80, and the remaining 40 missiles could be launched from the 10-12 other vessels like destroyers likely to be in the group.

    It is rather more likely the future use of the oscar will be how it has been used in the past... a deterrent to US carrier battle groups.

    But don't fool yourself, the US Armed forces are just as a threat towards Russia as it was towards the Soviet Union...You know what the US aims are.

    Indeed, but the Russian navy no longer needs to spread communism and for the next decade will likely focus on protecting Russias various oceans/ports.

    In the 2020s they can expand the carrier fleet and start venturing out and expanding into the worlds oceans, but right now there are not enough small ships let alone big ships or even support ships to think about doing what NATO does.

    You know, showing the flag means nothing in a shooting war.
    In peace time, "show the flag" effect of a battlecruiser is the same wheter it has Granits or UKSKs.

    The point is that subs are not much use in showing the flag as they spend most of their time not being noticed.

    The advantage of the Kirov is that where Russia feels strongly about something, it means they can send the Kirov... to Syria for example. Now if Russia knew what NATO was doing in Libya it could have vetoed the no fly zone, which would have put the ball in NATOs court. They can choose to escalate or back down... escalating... say they declared a NATO mission to Libya that involved a nonUNSC sensured no fly zone, then Russia could react by sending a Kirov to Libyan waters on an official "visit". Then NATO will have to decide whether to start WWIII and fire on a Russian vessel, or back off.

    I rather think in the case of Syria they will back off... it is a case of being able to show the other side you really mean business and you are drawing a line in the sand, without actually starting a conflict by shooting at anyone.

    Imagine a Russian carrier group in the med during the NATO bombing campaign in Kosovo? It would have given Russia more say and likely led to a more balanced solution.

    100% agreed. However, in the 21st century warfare, land attack is an extremely important mission and is a requirement for the Oscars (and submarines in general).

    Russian and Soviet SSGNs have traditionally been anti ship with no capability against land targets. This might change or it might not. Anti ship missiles have been used successfully against land based targets... I remember an Indian attack with Soviet anti ship missiles that use IR seekers that hit large oil tanks in Pakistan... the oil had been heated by the sun during the day and were large enough for the anti ship missiles to get a lock on.

    I am not assuming. The SM-315 are actually smaller than the SM-225A. They will fit in nicely without extensive refit. However, the current SM-315 can take Onyx only (no Kaliber), but I am sure they can solve that problem

    The article you posted said they were using the existing launchers... perhaps they have modified the SM-225A to take Onix and Kalibr?

    akhont, Onyx, Brahmos, Bolid and any other unknown offshoots are a family of missiles (just like the Klub).

    It wasn't really a family. Bolid is Oniks, and Yakhont is Oniks with reduced range and smaller warhead that could be exported.
    Brahmos is a modification of Yakhont that adds land attack capability and also vertical launch... Yakhont and Oniks were traditionally angle launched.

    The Brahmos will not be used by the Russians who will use other members of the "Yakhont" family.

    Yakhont is an export model of Onix... there is no Yakhont "family". Russian Navy officials will call their missile Yakhont or even Brahmos, but it will be Onix. The Russian Navy has no reason to use downgraded export Yakhont missiles.

    The only advantage that Onyx (land attack version) has is superior speed that can better penetrate sophisticated air defenses. Apart from that, Kaliber can do the job at a lower price.

    It has three times the speed of Kalibr only when flying high... it is slower at lower altitudes.

    The point is that in 5-10 years there will be Oniks II that flies at mach 8... and including manouvering will be a much more formidible threat.

    In another ten years, there will be at least as many Yasens as Oscars. Being more modern and quieter they will be assigned the more difficult and dangerous tasks such as neutralizing the oponent's naval battlegroups. While still having serious capabilities against taskforces, the older Oscars will be more inclined towards the land attack mode.

    They will have a shortage of operational subs... any extra unit will be useful to them. Considering that in 10 years time even a Russian corvette will require something like Oniks to defeat it the more platforms carrying this weapon the better.

    Oniks includes stealth in the design and has titanium armour instead of heavier steel armour used in the Granit.

    Of course at high speed the Oniks will be easy to spot due to IR signature, but IR sensors are line of sight so flying very low limits their range. Radar can see further but low and fast make that problematic.

    Onyx missiles are useless for that role. Akulas and Sierras will be fine for that kind of duties.

    Operating near Russian SSBN bastions they could use Onyx missiles to stop carrier groups attempting a preemptive attack.

    Now that they are getting old, I see the Onyx armed Yasens as their replacement. The Oscars will still participate in that role if necessary, but massive cruise missile land strikes are increasingly gaining importance, IMHO that will be their main role in the future.

    Except that Oniks is anti ship... as is Yakhont. It is Brahmos that has land attack capabilities.

    Perhaps you should ask yourself why they want to add Oniks AND Kalibr... Kalibr is what they call their domestic long range (2,000km) land attack Klub. If Oniks could attack land based targets why bother with Kalibr?


    In a nuclear exchange, SLBMs will do most of the talking. However, ABM defenses are getting more and more significant. A mix of SLBMs and nuclear tipped cruise missiles (Kaliber/Klub and Kh-102) is a better deterent.
    In a conventional scenario with a non-nuclear state....well, just rememebr the decapitating cruise missile strikes at the opening stages of the Iraqi and Libyan conflicts.

    The real danger is the new ABM system as it is ship based, which makes it very mobile and very flexible.

    Moving it from the Med and the Black Sea to the sea off greenland could be a real problem... moving half a dozen Oscars with Oniks could be a credible solution that does not require any weapon to be fired... your move counters their move, so they need to decide to escalate or withdraw... it shows you mean business rather than just words or rhetoric.

    BTW this is just my opinion too... I would be quite happy to be wrong... if you look at the Granit launchers on the Kuznetsov they look much bigger than the picture you posted...


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:56 am

    How many UKSK launchers and Redut SAM cells can fit in Kirovs? In the place of the existing launchers?


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:13 am

    The figures I have seen are for 10 UKSK systems for a total of 80 missile tubes, and I have seen a figure 160 SAM tubes for their large ships, so if Redut has 16 tubes as is believed then that means ten Redut systems too.

    Of course in addition you should include about 8-10 Pantsir-S1 systems with about 32 missiles each as well.

    Although much smaller than Granit the Oniks probably has a range in the order of 400-500km and perhaps is much smarter than Granit as it has much more recent "electronics".

    The thing is that the upgrades for the Kirovs are likely to come in stages so what is not done in the first stage might be left to later on when it is cheaper or easier to do so.

    They are already very powerful vessels and the first change will definitely be the replacement of Granit with Oniks as this has to be done because of dwindling stocks of Granit missiles and the fact that it is no longer in production.
    Any other upgrades will be gravy, and might be left till they are cheaper.
    It is already a very powerful ship.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:23 pm

    Nuclear-powered cruisers’ upgrade: when economy is pointless

    5 billion roubles have been allocated for the modernization of the Admiral Nakhimov cruiser. What capabilities will the updated ship acquire and are these expenses going to be justified in response to the shortage of new generation fighting ships?

    Talks about modernization of Admiral Nakhimov and other battlecruisers of Project 1144, withdrawn from the combat-ready forces of the fleet in the 90s, have been circulating for a very long time, but due to a lack of funds they had virtually no real implementation.

    In the second half of the 2000s, the government started financing the armed forces, and this spurred discussions concerning the retired cruisers’ return to the ranks. Naturally, the question of their role in the overall structure of the Navy immediately arose.

    Almost all experts have agreed on one point: the return of the Project 1144 vessels to the Navy would be practical only if their total modernization would make them multipurpose.

    By this time the Russian industry has already acquired possibilities for such a modernization: universal shipborne shooting complexes were created that significantly increased the range of weapons adopted by a ship depending on a specific task. Combat information and new generation control systems allowed the construction of a large unit’s collective defense system, that is, to exchange information in real time and control the firepower of several ships from one command post. Moreover, the Project 1144 cruisers upgraded with new shooting complexes and electronic equipment will acquire a totally new attribute as their dimensions allow these ships to be equipped with a large number of weapons, turning them into truly multifunctional vessels possessing powerful and diverse percussion armaments, air defense systems and anti-submarine defense.

    Modernization with the use of all the above-mentioned technical innovations costs a lot. According to various estimates, the price of such large-scale works may total more than 40 billion rubles ($1.3 billion) per ship. Meanwhile, only 5 billion roubles have been allotted for Admiral Nakhimov’s modernization. What can be done with this sum?

    Re-equipping the entire ship is out of the question because the amount of work and the cost of new units such an option unrealistic. According to preliminary estimates, 5 billion roubles should be enough to restore the ship’s combat capability to its “original” form and improve its on-board radio-electronic equipment. It is also not guaranteed that these funds will be enough to replace close combat air-defense systems. At the same time, the basis of the heavy cruiser’s firepower – the Granit missile complex and С-300F surface-to-air missile system - will most likely remain intact.

    Nakhimov will be the first ship of Project 1144 to undergo modernization. Most likely, it will be followed by Pyotr Veliky, which will soon celebrate 20 years of operation. But the destiny of the first two cruisers - Kirov and Admiral Lazarev - is not decided yet. Apparently, their overhaul was considered too expensive to suit the “cheap” modernization.

    The “cheap” modernization has one advantage. Admiral Nakhimov’s shipborne systems may be returned to the ranks rather quickly, within two-three years, as they have not been fully exhausted. However, this will not solve the problem in general. Admiral Nakhimov, as well as its younger sister-ship Pyotr Veliky, will remain as “specialized” ships, designed, first of all, for battling an enemy fleet. A “costly” modernization can turn the cruiser into a universal one, but it will take much more time – up to five or more years. At the same time, it is hardly worth being in a hurry in this case. The Navy will receive a ship, though very powerful, but not meeting present-day requirements and unsuitable for solving practical problems the Russian Navy is currently facing.

    According to this scenario, the sad fate of the American Iowa battleships can overtake the upgraded cruisers. These battleships were modernized in the 80s, but very soon after, they were transferred to the reserve in the first half of the 90s. However, if need be, their systems and mechanisms will allow them to continue to be used today. Limited modernization has not given the Second World War battleships the opportunities that were necessary for successful competition with the latest cruisers and destroyers equipped with the Aegis Combat System. It would be a pity if Russian cruiserssuffer the same fate.

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_09_04/Nuclear-powered-cruisers-upgrade-when-economy-is-pointless/

    So its not a modernization, but a reactivation of Nahkimov, even its Granit system and S-300F will not be replaced with most modern missiles Sad

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:59 am

    I rather suspect what they will do is what was described above... 5 billion is not a huge amount, but should be enough for an electronics upgrade (communications battle management etc), what I disagree with whomever wrote this article is that they will replace the Granits with UKSK tubes.

    As they mention in the article the main issue is that these vessels are armed with a single use missile that is no longer in production that can only be used against enemy ships. By replacing it with UKSK launchers it suddenly becomes a multirole vessel as it can be loaded with land attack cruise missiles, sub sonic and supersonic anti ship missiles and anti submarine missiles.

    They can pretty much leave every thing else FOR THE MOMENT.

    Once the K has had its huge overhaul then they can put one and then the other Kirov though a similar major overhaul when the new AESA radars will already have been installed on the Kuz and will be cheaper... hopefully... also the new compact nuclear powerplant that will be installed on the Kuz will be mature.

    After upgrading the Kuz they can decide if it works or not... if the new reactor is crap, and the AESAs don't work and this that and the other are rubbish then new carriers and new cruisers might be needed, but to design a new cruiser and build it and test it and then build another will take 15 years. A two year minor weapon swapout and communicaitons radio upgrade and you can have a useful cruiser for not much money till you decide on a more substantial overhaul or brand new from scratch design.

    The Kirov hull is proven and most of the vessel is great. A new propulsion, upgraded weapons and sensors to match those fitted to all other vessels and it should be sweet.

    These vessels could potentially last another 30-40 years, and before you say they will be obsolete then... you are ignoring their size and capacity mean that in 30 years time they could have high power laser air defence systems to defend against hypersonic missile threats, and EM guns able to launch projectiles into near space orbit for all we know...


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Viktor on Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:17 am

    Would be nice to use Nakimov to test S-500/400 for new destroyers.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:25 am

    5 years ago, I would have agreed with you, but with experience with Bulava I believe many of the failures were associated with using the Akula (Typhoon) class test bed.

    I feel the best use of the two Kirov class vessels will be as operational flag ships to lead groups of Russian ships around the place.

    The Kirovs will eventually get S-400/S-500 systems, so there does need to be testing done, but for the moment fitting UKSK tubes and removing the Granits and SS-N-14 launch system should be fairly straight forward... the Granit tubes are slightly angled, while the UKSK tubes are vertical, but that should not pose insurmountable problems. The real question is should they take the opportunity to install the unified Redut vertical launch tube bins for SAM in place of the RIF system... the RIF system is vertical launch but had rotary bin launchers and one launch position, while the new system will be simpler cheaper fixed bins where every missile is ready to launch and there is no need for under deck access to the tubes or the rotary alignment system.
    With the new missiles on the cheap it will be interesting regarding the performance of the missiles with the old radar sensor suite... it might limit the performance of even the newer missiles, but the advantage of commonality with the rest of the fleet would make it worth the temporary sacrifice of carrying missiles with a 250km range that can engage targets out to 90km... which in actual fact is plenty really.

    A more expensive upgrade in 5-10 years time to install new super AESA radars and electronics and optronics should result in a very very capable ship, especially with a new compact all nuclear propulsion system for high speed sailing all the way to the deployment area if need be rather than the current arrangement with a 2,000 mile limit for top speed operations. Just having NPPs should make the propulsion more compact and reliable and make it able to keep up with all nuclear carriers... no point in having a nuclear powered carrier that can do 35+knts if all the other vessels in the carrier group can only sustain 16knts for long range deployments.

    Of course zipping around everywhere at 35knts is not a great idea either.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Firebird on Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:40 pm

    I can see the reasoning in a lite refit for Nakhimov.
    The 2 oldest Kirovs could be done later, when propulsion issues, naval S-400+500 issues are cleared. Or even when people are thinking more of energy weapons.

    It looks like Piotr Velikiy is out of action for a while with its upcoming refit, so thatmeans a speedy demand for Nakhimov back in use.

    Finally, I wonder what would happen if the Navy was planning a heavy cruiser today.Will energy weapons and ship launched ICBMs etc mean huge ships would be designed? Or would they just want to keep the Kirov hulls and concentrate on the new nuclear destroyer( or even a slightly enlarged version of it)?

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:07 pm

    I think that admiral nakhimov and pietr veliky can go a logical modernization with P-800 missiles in place of older P-700, and S-400 in place of S-300.

    I have an alternative suggestion for Admiral Lazarev and admiral Ushakov. They could be modified to LARGE INTELLIGENCE SHIPS. And replace a lot of old intelligence ships in russian navy.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:28 pm

    Firebird wrote:I can see the reasoning in a lite refit for Nakhimov.
    The 2 oldest Kirovs could be done later, when propulsion issues, naval S-400+500 issues are cleared. Or even when people are thinking more of energy weapons.

    It looks like Piotr Velikiy is out of action for a while with its upcoming refit, so thatmeans a speedy demand for Nakhimov back in use.

    Finally, I wonder what would happen if the Navy was planning a heavy cruiser today.Will energy weapons and ship launched ICBMs etc mean huge ships would be designed? Or would they just want to keep the Kirov hulls and concentrate on the new nuclear destroyer( or even a slightly enlarged version of it)?

    Peter Velikiy is only due for standard scheduled dry dock visits, nothing lengthy. There is absolutely no way the Nakhimov could be brought to active status, lite modernization or not, before Peter is back in service.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:41 pm

    George1 wrote:I think that admiral nakhimov and pietr veliky can go a logical modernization with P-800 missiles in place of older P-700, and S-400 in place of S-300.

    I have an alternative suggestion for Admiral Lazarev and admiral Ushakov. They could be modified to LARGE INTELLIGENCE SHIPS. And replace a lot of old intelligence ships in russian navy.

    Yes I believe there already is an EW/Intel ship based on the Kirov hull.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  runaway on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:53 am

    flamming_python wrote:[Yes I believe there already is an EW/Intel ship based on the Kirov hull.



    There is, and its rusting away in the far east, no way such a large ship can be economical vial to perform EW/ Intel operations.
    "
    Due to high operating costs, SSV-33 was laid up.[2]

    The SSV-33 was assigned to Pacific Fleet, however there wasn't a pier ready for this ship. She was forced to anchor out. Machinery had to remain running while at anchor to support other systems and huge crew. Ship became a floating barracks. She never went to sea, while her powerful radioelectronic equipment gradually began to decay.

    The main systems of the Ural haven't functioned for a long time and it would cost an enormous amount of money to restore it. A few years ago, there was some preservation work done on the hull. It is speculated that the ship will be sold overseas after removal of nuclear reactors."

    http://www.military-today.com/navy/ural_l1.jpg
    http://www.military-today.com/navy/ural_l3.jpg


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:41 pm

    Repair of Cruiser Admiral Nakhimov Needs RUR 50 Bln

    Repair, modernization, and rearmament of nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov will cost Russia about RUR 50 bln, said Anatoly Shlemov, chief of defense order department at United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC).

    "Recovery of the ship costs 30 billion rubles; considering rearmament, modernization cost of Admiral Nakhimov grows up to 50 billions. This ship is mentioned both in state defense order and State Arms Procurement Program 2011-2020. The project was submitted to Navy command and then to defense minister Anatoly Serdiukov", Shlemov said.

    As for him, other two ships of this project, Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Ushakov are non-repairable and will be dismantled.

    Project 1144 Orlan nuclear-powered missile cruisers are designed for destruction of sea and air targets, i.e. enemy ships and aircraft. Full speed of Orlan-class cruisers is up to 32 knots; because of 600-MW nuclear powerplant, operational range is unlimited.

    According to design configuration, Orlan-class cruisers were armed with ASW systems Granit, antisubmarine rockets Vodopad-NK, rocket/bomb systems Smerch-3 and Udav-1, gun mounts AK-130, surface-to-air systems Fort, antiaircraft system Osa-MA, and 533-mm torpedo tubes. Each cruiser is capable to accommodate three Ka-27PL antisubmarine helicopters.

    Out of four such ships, only one remained in Russian Navy. It is flagship of Northern Fleet, nuclear-powered missile cruiser Petr Veliky. Other three Orlans are mothballed; Admiral Lazarev rusts at Pacific Fleet, Admiral Ushakov and Admiral Nakhimov – at Northern one. Cruiser Admiral Nakhimov (named Kalinin till 1992) was laid down at Baltiysky Zavod shipyard in 1983, commissioned into Soviet Navy in 1988, took sea for the last time in 1997. Since 1999, the ship stays idle at mooring quay of Sevmash shipyard.

    According to an insider fr om Russian Navy, recovery of Admiral Nakhimov is an already decided matter.

    "The works will be done within the next five years. Then the ship will be stationed at Northern Fleet along with similar cruiser Petr Veliky. Presently, experts determine renovation parameters for powerplant, radioelectronics, and weapons. We move toward increasing of the ship's combat power. By the end of the year, the government's military industrial committee will consider all modernization variants and make a decision", said the source.

    However, naval arms expert and chief editor of Arms Export magazine Andrei Frolov says feasibility of Admiral Nakhimov's recovery is quite questionable. He emphasized that the money planned for retrofitting of the cruiser is well enough to buy a new Mistral-class French amphibious ship.

    "These large ships are pretty vulnerable to present-day weapons. Besides, they were built in Soviet era, so will serve no longer than 15 years even after modernization. After that, the cruisers will be decommissioned anyway", explained Frolov.

    According to Northern Fleet HQ, after recovery Admiral Nakhimov will need large crew, but it is not clear wh ere to find personnel.

    "Such ship requires hundreds of high-class officers and skilled sailors, but today they are much more in need for new warships. So far, it is unclear who will serve on Nakhimov", said a source in the headquarters.

    At present, there are three Project 1164 Atlant cruisers in Russian Navy; they are Moskva, Varyag, and Marshall Ustinov. In addition, Russia hold talks with Ukraine regarding purchase of similar cruiser Ukraina (former Admiral Flota Lobov). By the way, Atlant-class cruisers are designed for the same tasks as Admiral Nakhimov, writes Izvestiya.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16013

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:10 am

    50 billion?

    Sheeeesh.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:26 am

    it would be better to proceed with the next cruiser class

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:41 am

    50 billion roubles is not that much money for the modern capable cruiser that will result.

    There is, and its rusting away in the far east, no way such a large ship can be economical vial to perform EW/ Intel operations.
    "
    Due to high operating costs, SSV-33 was laid up.[2]

    It is largely just a hull and major structure... It was laid up for the purpose that it might be useful in the future.

    As for him, other two ships of this project, Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Ushakov are non-repairable and will be dismantled.

    Which leaves the Admiral Nakhimov and the Peter the Great.

    Using the hull of the SVV-33 means they have the potential for three upgraded vessels.

    With unified sensors and weapons and machinery it should be much cheaper and easier to operate these vessels than before as the equipment and weapons and machinery is standardised throughout the navy. The same UKSK launch bins on a Russian corvette will be the same as the UKSK launch bins on Peter the Great.

    The difference is that the Corvette might have one UKSK launcher, while the PTG might have 10 or more.

    However, naval arms expert and chief editor of Arms Export magazine Andrei Frolov says feasibility of Admiral Nakhimov's recovery is quite questionable. He emphasized that the money planned for retrofitting of the cruiser is well enough to buy a new Mistral-class French amphibious ship.

    But they are already buying 4 Mistrals... they have no need for another.

    What they lack are cruisers to escort and protect the Kuznetsov or the Mistrals, so it makes sense to upgrade two Orlan class vessels.

    "These large ships are pretty vulnerable to present-day weapons. Besides, they were built in Soviet era, so will serve no longer than 15 years even after modernization. After that, the cruisers will be decommissioned anyway", explained Frolov.

    A full overhaul should enable these vessels to operate for another 30-40 years and the new sensors and weapon systems will dramatically improve their ability to defend themselves and other vessels near them, and their ability to attack.

    According to Northern Fleet HQ, after recovery Admiral Nakhimov will need large crew, but it is not clear wh ere to find personnel.

    There is huge potential for automation to reduce crew requirements. The vast reduction in the use of single use sensors and equipment should make it much more effective and require a lot less crew to operate.

    At present, there are three Project 1164 Atlant cruisers in Russian Navy; they are Moskva, Varyag, and Marshall Ustinov. In addition, Russia hold talks with Ukraine regarding purchase of similar cruiser Ukraina (former Admiral Flota Lobov). By the way, Atlant-class cruisers are designed for the same tasks as Admiral Nakhimov, writes Izvestiya.

    They are the much less capable Slava class vessels that have external missile launchers. The upgrade of the Slava class is much more problematic because the new missile launchers are vertical launch bin launchers. On the Orlan it is a case of newer more compact vertical launch bins replacing vertical launch rotary launch systems and inclined vertical launch bins. Removing the old systems leaves plenty of space for the new systems. On the Slava removal of the old missiles from on top of the deck leaves no room for UKSK vertical bin launchers or Redut SAM launchers.

    Slava class boats are also much smaller, with a lot less room for systems and weapons and sensors.

    50 billion?

    About 1.5 billion US... about 1/10th the cost of a new US carrier.

    It is actually pretty cheap as it includes both a thorough overhaul and full upgrade of sensors, electronics, weapons, and machinery.

    To scratch build an equivalent (which admittedly would be better) will take at least 10 to 15 years instead of the 5 this will take... and in 15 years it will likely make 1.5 billion US look cheap.

    it would be better to proceed with the next cruiser class

    Things are improving but at the moment they can't even manage a destroyer let alone a cruiser. The upgrade makes sense for now.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  runaway on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:10 am

    GarryB wrote:What they lack are cruisers to escort and protect the Kuznetsov or the Mistrals, so it makes sense to upgrade two Orlan class vessels.

    Agree, there is simply no choise. When they decided to buy Mistrals they also guaranteed the recovery of one or two Orlans. Simply because no other ship will have the endurance and capability to follow and protect high value assets in blue ocean.
    The same can be said about K, no corvette or frigate can escort or protect her to a high level.
    Not much much point having Mistrals and K, but cant send them anywhere cose they cant be protected. Then they have a toy navy for admiral brass to play with.

    Also iam concerned about Atalant, Slavas. How to install modern USUK on this class?
    That is a near impossible task, and regretteble i see no future plans for these ships.

    The Orlans however, can be rebuilt and modernized for a very long time. And they have much greater potential in that that the Iowas ever had.

    I can predict that if they want to base 1 or 2 Mistrals in Pacific, they will have to modernize Nakhimov and base her there too. And as Gary said, with new systems on board, automation can lower her crew number alot.

    Now the Frunze and Kirov, i suspect Frunze or Lazarev as it is called will also be called back to ranks. The first Kirov i suspect will face scrapping.
    Simply, if u want to have one or two Orlans in service, u need three to guarantee they will be operational when they are nedded, and not in a refit.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:18 am

    Why doesn't 1155 have the endurance neccesary to escort Mistral?
    or 22350? Or the perspective destroyer?

    Nakhimov might be worth patching up.
    The others are in terrible shape. Saw some recent photos from Lazarev, that thing looks worse than Ushakov.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:50 am

    Also iam concerned about Atalant, Slavas. How to install modern USUK on this class?
    That is a near impossible task, and regretteble i see no future plans for these ships.

    The Orlans however, can be rebuilt and modernized for a very long time. And they have much greater potential in that that the Iowas ever had.

    The Slavas will be a challenge... it really depends on what is below decks beneath the above deck weapon launchers.

    I rather suspect that as a command ship as backup in case the orlan class failed they were filled with electronics and that replacing all that with new wiring and more modern more capable smaller and more compact systems space might become available for vertical launch systems that penetrate the deck. Again with automation and a huge reduction in the number of sensors and systems (those old soviet ships had several radar systems for each weapon type including search and tracking radars, whereas modern multifunction systems can replace it all).

    They wont be as formidible as the Orlans, but with a compact nuclear propulsion system their performance will be greatly improved too.

    If they are putting nuclear propulsion in destroyers then they will likely do the same for their cruisers.

    The Iowas were massive heavy battleships with enormous crews even after upgrades their main purpose was their guns.

    The purpose behind upgrading the Orlans is their capacity for weapons and sensors as command vessels.

    I can predict that if they want to base 1 or 2 Mistrals in Pacific, they will have to modernize Nakhimov and base her there too. And as Gary said, with new systems on board, automation can lower her crew number alot.

    Now the Frunze and Kirov, i suspect Frunze or Lazarev as it is called will also be called back to ranks. The first Kirov i suspect will face scrapping.
    Simply, if u want to have one or two Orlans in service, u need three to guarantee they will be operational when they are nedded, and not in a refit.

    Normally three would be a minimum, but in this case I suspect most of the time the Orlans will be escorting groups that include the Kuznetsov.

    In such a case I would probably base one Orlan in the Northern Fleet with the Kuznetsov and one in the Pacific fleet to lead any task force that might include mistrals.

    With only one full carrier (K) it would make sense to manage the upgrades and refits so that whenever the K is available to sail that at least one Orlan is also available to join her.

    With the upgrades to the K and the Orlans the machinery and sensors and weapons will be largely unified which should make maintainence and support and operations much cheaper and easier... the UKSK bins in the corvettes are the same bins as in the frigates and the destroyers and the cruisers and even the helicopter carriers... where previously the Slavas had SS-N-12 Sandbox missiles, and the Kirovs had the SS-N-19 Granit missiles and totally different propulsion systems and totally different sensors. It was a mess.

    Why doesn't 1155 have the endurance neccesary to escort Mistral?
    or 22350? Or the perspective destroyer?

    Endurance is not just measured in on board fuel... it is measured in weapons capacity and the amount of food that can be carried.

    The enormous weight of weapons on an upgraded orlan means it can do more than just defend itself... it can defend a large area of sea around it too.

    Even assuming the 1155 with its 8 heavy anti sub weapons got 4 UKSK launchers, that means 32 missiles that can be a combination of anti ship, land attack, and anti sub.

    One Orlan will have more than double the number of launch tubes which gives it more options. It will also have a lot more anti aircraft missiles. Its radars and sensors will be larger with longer detection ranges. Even just the fact that it carries one more helo (3 instead of 2) is more useful. (Two is actually rather better than one, while three is better than two it is not as much better than two as two is of one...)

    Don't get me wrong the Orlans wont be super ships... there will be other ships in the group too but the Orlans will have a presence that no smaller ship could match.

    They wont be cheap but they will serve the Russian Navy well for the next 20-30 years at the least and will mean that in 10-15 years time when new Russian carriers are being looked at they can look at new cruisers to escort them rather than having to rush a new design in now.


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    Cruiser Admiral Nakhimov to be recommissioned

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:05 pm

    The cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" upgrade







    Sevmash has signed a contract with the Ministry of Defence to repair and upgrade the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov"

    The document signed by the Deputy Minister of Defence of the Russian Federation Yuri Borisov and CEO of OAO "PO" Sevmash "Michael Budnichenko. Tactical and technical requirements for the modernization of "Admiral Nakhimov" approved Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. The primary goal of the company - the conclusion of a contract to develop the project of modernization cruisers, who will perform "Northern Design Bureau". "Now the company has begun the preparatory phase: installation of systems engineering support, inspection and flaw detection equipment and steam-turbine plant, as well as the dismantling of components and assemblies. 70 percent of the dismantled equipment must be replaced, "- said the head of repairs, upgrades and warranty supervision of" PO "Sevmash" Sergei Khviyuzov.


    As the first deputy general director of OAO "PO" Sevmash "Sergei Marichev, the amount of work on a heavy nuclear missile cruiser is comparable with the level of repairs and modernization of aircraft carrier" Vikramaditya ". "Admiral Nakhimov" has to be the most modern TARK in the Navy. It will be equipped with modern weapons that have passed the test.


    The nearest major milestone for the ship - docking in waterworks. It is scheduled for 2014. In accordance with the signed agreement the ship should enter into service in the Navy in 2018.


    For the record:


    Heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" the third ship of the series construction of "Baltic Shipyard" (St. Petersburg). It was founded in 1982. Navy commissioned 10 May 1989 The designer - JSC "Northern Design Bureau" (St. Petersburg). According to the decision of the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Economy of the Russian Federation, and in accordance with state contract to the waters of "PO" Sevmash "transferred 14 August 1999 and accepted in the average factory scheduled maintenance.



    Catherine Pilikin


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:34 am

    This will be very interesting.

    I suspect certain choices are obvious like the UKSK launcher bins for Calibre/Oniks/Yakhont/Moskit/Klub series AShM/LACM/ASW missiles.

    Replacing Kashtan with Pantsir-S1 is logical, and Duet for the AK-630 gun turrets, while the SAM arrangement will also be interesting with the question of Redut probably replacing Rif and Rif-M, but will there be an upgraded TOR or just more Redut bins, and will they install Morfei. Another question regarding SAMs is will it carry naval S-500... or should I ask will naval S-500 be ready by 2018 or will it be added later? Will it be fitted to be able to carry a Ka-52 as well as Ka-32s and will other UAVs be added?

    Otherwise the electronics and sensors and indeed powerplant might be a good indication of the sort of thing they will be putting on the Kuznetsov too.

    I suspect a simpler power system might be worth looking at based on the new compact reactors they are developing for carriers, which should be smaller and more compact than the current boiler reactor arrangement.

    Finally the guns... will it retain 130mm or go for 152mm or will there be a surprise and the 152s are for the Frigates and the new cruisers might be 203mm?

    I suspect the 152s are probably long enough ranged to make them very useful with perhaps two twin turrets on the upgraded vessels and lots and lots of ammo.

    Very good news all round.


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