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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:39 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:

    ...forget the Sovs as their propulsion are troublesome and they are simply less useful than the Udaloys.

    They are not less usefull but way harder to modernize and it's not worth the  money as they get gorshkovs.

    Slavas should be upgraded with inclined oniks lunchers like the one we saw on the nanushka corvette. It shouldn't be costly to do so. And having 2+2 in north and pacific fleets plus 1 kirov each would be really nice instead of just 3 with 1 in each fleet.

    Slavas and kirovs are the best ships available today in the world. If they can upgrade them and use them, they should go for it.


    Being a large ASW ship, the Udaloys have a capable (though bulky) bow sonar which the Sovs lack, and they have 2x helos as opposed to 1 on the Sovs .  Also their gas turbine powerplants give them a greatly improved reaction time. compared to the Sovs boilers & steam turbines.  The Udaloy main failing is lack of a medium-long range SAM system and radars, though it has navalised Tor/Khinzhal so has decent medium-short-range air defense.

    Yep, I'd plug for the Udaloys over the Sovs, and given that both Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are both currently under refit, it seems the RuN concurs.

    BTW regarding the Slavas, I'd rather see them retain the P-1000 Vulkans than spend money fitting with inclined UKSK.  The RuN has other UKSK ships coming on line, and the Slavas are useful for being able to deliver a killer punch to carrier with a single missile.  Regardless of any shit-posting from Atlantacist twerps, any hit by a Vulkan on a CGN will reduce a significant portion of the ship into a tangled flaming wreck and will certainly put an end to any air operations, ie mission kill.  Use Onyx & AShM versions of Kalibre (& Zircon  Twisted Evil ) simultaneously with missile attacks from land-based aviation to overwhelm and degrade enemy defense, then launch Vulcan wolfpack to hit the flat-tops.

    Well maybe they could just modify the P-1000 Vulkan so that it takes an evasive course like the Iskander.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:59 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Being a large ASW ship, the Udaloys have a capable (though bulky) bow sonar which the Sovs lack, and they have 2x helos as opposed to 1 on the Sovs .  Also their gas turbine powerplants give them a greatly improved reaction time. compared to the Sovs boilers & steam turbines.  The Udaloy main failing is lack of a medium-long range SAM system and radars, though it has navalised Tor/Khinzhal so has decent medium-short-range air defense.

    Yep, I'd plug for the Udaloys over the Sovs, and given that both Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are both currently under refit, it seems the RuN concurs.

    BTW regarding the Slavas, I'd rather see them retain the P-1000 Vulkans than spend money fitting with inclined UKSK.  The RuN has other UKSK ships coming on line, and the Slavas are useful for being able to deliver a killer punch to carrier with a single missile.  Regardless of any shit-posting from Atlantacist twerps, any hit by a Vulkan on a CGN will reduce a significant portion of the ship into a tangled flaming wreck and will certainly put an end to any air operations, ie mission kill.  Use Onyx & AShM versions of Kalibre (& Zircon  Twisted Evil ) simultaneously with missile attacks from land-based aviation to overwhelm and degrade enemy defense, then launch Vulcan wolfpack to hit the flat-tops.

    Well maybe they could just modify the P-1000 Vulkan so that it takes an evasive course like the Iskander.
    Vulkans are an advanced weapon, and although the airframe is evolved from the old 1960s P-5/P-35 "Shaddock", they are entirely a different beast.  A Bazalt/Vulkan salvo functions as a wolf-pack:  

    The missiles were intended to be used in salvos; a submarine could launch eight in rapid succession, maintaining control of each through a separate datalink. In flight the group could co-ordinate their actions; one would fly to a higher altitude and use its active radar to search for targets, forwarding this data to the other missiles which remained at low altitude. The missiles were programmed so that half of a salvo would head for a carrier target, with the rest dividing between other ships. If the high-flying missile was shot down, another from the salvo would automatically pop up to take its place. All of the missiles would switch to active radar for the terminal phase of the attack  
    Source is wikipedia (a shit source but useful sometimes...)

    I think you can take for granted that final attack run isn't performed in a straight line to assist the enemies defenses...
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    Isos

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:52 pm

    Vulkans are an advanced weapon, and although the airframe is evolved from the old 1960s P-5/P-35 "Shaddock", they are entirely a different beast. A Bazalt/Vulkan salvo functions as a wolf-pack:

    The missiles were intended to be used in salvos; a submarine could launch eight in rapid succession, maintaining control of each through a separate datalink. In flight the group could co-ordinate their actions; one would fly to a higher altitude and use its active radar to search for targets, forwarding this data to the other missiles which remained at low altitude. The missiles were programmed so that half of a salvo would head for a carrier target, with the rest dividing between other ships. If the high-flying missile was shot down, another from the salvo would automatically pop up to take its place. All of the missiles would switch to active radar for the terminal phase of the attack
    Source is wikipedia (a shit source but useful sometimes...)

    I think you can take for granted that final attack run isn't performed in a straight line to assist the enemies defenses

    They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it os not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:15 pm

    Isos wrote:They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it is not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.

    They don't AFAIK pack with Oniks, only between themselves, though conceivable they could with Granit as both P-500/1000 and P-700 as both are products of NPO Mashinostroyeniye, so the flight control and targetting systems will be based on same technologies (for that matter, so is P-800 Oniks so I'd expect their salvos to operate similarly as well).

    Vulkan flies at M2.5, about same as Granit/Onyx.  Agreed that its not stealthy, but what heavy AShMs are?  Finally, as I said, the P-1000 is most useful when an enemies defenses have been degraded due to previous attacks.  P-1000 (and P-700) is the sledge hammer you use when the enemy is reeling and ready for the killer punch.  One hit and the biggest flat-top is mission-dead, and that's gotta be a weapon worth keeping.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:37 am

    The main problem of customised weapons (ie Vulkan and Granit) means that when you have a few ships carrying such weapons you need to stock all the ports it will operate from with a different missile system and equipment and crew to load and maintain it from.

    Fitting UKSK launchers means everywhere you stock standard missiles which will fit all ships... even if diverted to a different port than normal.

    The Vulkan and Grant are potent missiles, but in terms of performance Zircon and Onyx do something very similar in a much smaller and much lighter package allowing more to be carried....


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:25 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it is not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.

    They don't AFAIK pack with Oniks, only between themselves, though conceivable they could with Granit as both P-500/1000 and P-700 as both are products of NPO Mashinostroyeniye, so the flight control and targetting systems will be based on same technologies (for that matter, so is P-800 Oniks so I'd expect their salvos to operate similarly as well).

    Vulkan flies at M2.5, about same as Granit/Onyx.  Agreed that its not stealthy, but what heavy AShMs are?  Finally, as I said, the P-1000 is most useful when an enemies defenses have been degraded due to previous attacks.  P-1000 (and P-700) is the sledge hammer you use when the enemy is reeling and ready for the killer punch.  One hit and the biggest flat-top is mission-dead, and that's gotta be a weapon worth keeping.

    Honestly I seriously doubt a carrier will be operable after strike form Zircon, especially if it strikes from front or rear. I shudder to think how far it can penetrate if it strikes at M5. In fact I think hitting front, rear or plunging will be almost mandatory if not fusing becomes very difficult.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:26 am

    Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:23 am

    GarryB wrote:Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...

    What about a 45 degree dive with a solid armor piercing warhead I would like to see them try and fix that at sea.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:49 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...

    What about a 45 degree dive with a solid armor piercing warhead I would like to see them try and fix that at sea.

    It probably already has this 45 degree dive on impact to hit what's in the lower part of the ship like engines and fuel and let the water goes inside to sink it. More usefull than hiting the deck.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:47 pm

    Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.

    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:53 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.

    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.

    Taking an unpredictable evasive course like the Iskander is still better and this seems to be the way Russian missile development is going.

    Seeing it is irrelivent if you cannot hit it.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:40 pm

    Still it's way more difficult if the incoming missile is flying few meters above sea surface.

    Climbing takes a lot of distance, all the more as the missile is flying faster, so to climb a few hundreds meters flying at Mach 5 would have to be performed while still kilometers away from the target, it would be like lighting up a bullseye on the incoming missile.

    On the other side, banking left and right on very low level would force intercepting missiles, who have very limited intercepting's course algorithms, to risks at any turn to risk to hit the sea surface.

    The incoming missile choose its own trajectory, based on its position, speed, course and flight attitude, so being able to perform manouvres in a relatively safe manner, while the interceptors are forced to change they route irrespective of their flight attitude, just to try to get to the incoming missile.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:53 pm


    Fresh one from the real world:


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