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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:39 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:

    ...forget the Sovs as their propulsion are troublesome and they are simply less useful than the Udaloys.

    They are not less usefull but way harder to modernize and it's not worth the  money as they get gorshkovs.

    Slavas should be upgraded with inclined oniks lunchers like the one we saw on the nanushka corvette. It shouldn't be costly to do so. And having 2+2 in north and pacific fleets plus 1 kirov each would be really nice instead of just 3 with 1 in each fleet.

    Slavas and kirovs are the best ships available today in the world. If they can upgrade them and use them, they should go for it.


    Being a large ASW ship, the Udaloys have a capable (though bulky) bow sonar which the Sovs lack, and they have 2x helos as opposed to 1 on the Sovs .  Also their gas turbine powerplants give them a greatly improved reaction time. compared to the Sovs boilers & steam turbines.  The Udaloy main failing is lack of a medium-long range SAM system and radars, though it has navalised Tor/Khinzhal so has decent medium-short-range air defense.

    Yep, I'd plug for the Udaloys over the Sovs, and given that both Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are both currently under refit, it seems the RuN concurs.

    BTW regarding the Slavas, I'd rather see them retain the P-1000 Vulkans than spend money fitting with inclined UKSK.  The RuN has other UKSK ships coming on line, and the Slavas are useful for being able to deliver a killer punch to carrier with a single missile.  Regardless of any shit-posting from Atlantacist twerps, any hit by a Vulkan on a CGN will reduce a significant portion of the ship into a tangled flaming wreck and will certainly put an end to any air operations, ie mission kill.  Use Onyx & AShM versions of Kalibre (& Zircon  Twisted Evil ) simultaneously with missile attacks from land-based aviation to overwhelm and degrade enemy defense, then launch Vulcan wolfpack to hit the flat-tops.

    Well maybe they could just modify the P-1000 Vulkan so that it takes an evasive course like the Iskander.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:59 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Being a large ASW ship, the Udaloys have a capable (though bulky) bow sonar which the Sovs lack, and they have 2x helos as opposed to 1 on the Sovs .  Also their gas turbine powerplants give them a greatly improved reaction time. compared to the Sovs boilers & steam turbines.  The Udaloy main failing is lack of a medium-long range SAM system and radars, though it has navalised Tor/Khinzhal so has decent medium-short-range air defense.

    Yep, I'd plug for the Udaloys over the Sovs, and given that both Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are both currently under refit, it seems the RuN concurs.

    BTW regarding the Slavas, I'd rather see them retain the P-1000 Vulkans than spend money fitting with inclined UKSK.  The RuN has other UKSK ships coming on line, and the Slavas are useful for being able to deliver a killer punch to carrier with a single missile.  Regardless of any shit-posting from Atlantacist twerps, any hit by a Vulkan on a CGN will reduce a significant portion of the ship into a tangled flaming wreck and will certainly put an end to any air operations, ie mission kill.  Use Onyx & AShM versions of Kalibre (& Zircon  Twisted Evil ) simultaneously with missile attacks from land-based aviation to overwhelm and degrade enemy defense, then launch Vulcan wolfpack to hit the flat-tops.

    Well maybe they could just modify the P-1000 Vulkan so that it takes an evasive course like the Iskander.
    Vulkans are an advanced weapon, and although the airframe is evolved from the old 1960s P-5/P-35 "Shaddock", they are entirely a different beast.  A Bazalt/Vulkan salvo functions as a wolf-pack:  

    The missiles were intended to be used in salvos; a submarine could launch eight in rapid succession, maintaining control of each through a separate datalink. In flight the group could co-ordinate their actions; one would fly to a higher altitude and use its active radar to search for targets, forwarding this data to the other missiles which remained at low altitude. The missiles were programmed so that half of a salvo would head for a carrier target, with the rest dividing between other ships. If the high-flying missile was shot down, another from the salvo would automatically pop up to take its place. All of the missiles would switch to active radar for the terminal phase of the attack  
    Source is wikipedia (a shit source but useful sometimes...)

    I think you can take for granted that final attack run isn't performed in a straight line to assist the enemies defenses...
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:52 pm

    Vulkans are an advanced weapon, and although the airframe is evolved from the old 1960s P-5/P-35 "Shaddock", they are entirely a different beast. A Bazalt/Vulkan salvo functions as a wolf-pack:

    The missiles were intended to be used in salvos; a submarine could launch eight in rapid succession, maintaining control of each through a separate datalink. In flight the group could co-ordinate their actions; one would fly to a higher altitude and use its active radar to search for targets, forwarding this data to the other missiles which remained at low altitude. The missiles were programmed so that half of a salvo would head for a carrier target, with the rest dividing between other ships. If the high-flying missile was shot down, another from the salvo would automatically pop up to take its place. All of the missiles would switch to active radar for the terminal phase of the attack
    Source is wikipedia (a shit source but useful sometimes...)

    I think you can take for granted that final attack run isn't performed in a straight line to assist the enemies defenses

    They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it os not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:15 pm

    Isos wrote:They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it is not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.

    They don't AFAIK pack with Oniks, only between themselves, though conceivable they could with Granit as both P-500/1000 and P-700 as both are products of NPO Mashinostroyeniye, so the flight control and targetting systems will be based on same technologies (for that matter, so is P-800 Oniks so I'd expect their salvos to operate similarly as well).

    Vulkan flies at M2.5, about same as Granit/Onyx.  Agreed that its not stealthy, but what heavy AShMs are?  Finally, as I said, the P-1000 is most useful when an enemies defenses have been degraded due to previous attacks.  P-1000 (and P-700) is the sledge hammer you use when the enemy is reeling and ready for the killer punch.  One hit and the biggest flat-top is mission-dead, and that's gotta be a weapon worth keeping.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:37 am

    The main problem of customised weapons (ie Vulkan and Granit) means that when you have a few ships carrying such weapons you need to stock all the ports it will operate from with a different missile system and equipment and crew to load and maintain it from.

    Fitting UKSK launchers means everywhere you stock standard missiles which will fit all ships... even if diverted to a different port than normal.

    The Vulkan and Grant are potent missiles, but in terms of performance Zircon and Onyx do something very similar in a much smaller and much lighter package allowing more to be carried....

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:25 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it is not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.

    They don't AFAIK pack with Oniks, only between themselves, though conceivable they could with Granit as both P-500/1000 and P-700 as both are products of NPO Mashinostroyeniye, so the flight control and targetting systems will be based on same technologies (for that matter, so is P-800 Oniks so I'd expect their salvos to operate similarly as well).

    Vulkan flies at M2.5, about same as Granit/Onyx.  Agreed that its not stealthy, but what heavy AShMs are?  Finally, as I said, the P-1000 is most useful when an enemies defenses have been degraded due to previous attacks.  P-1000 (and P-700) is the sledge hammer you use when the enemy is reeling and ready for the killer punch.  One hit and the biggest flat-top is mission-dead, and that's gotta be a weapon worth keeping.

    Honestly I seriously doubt a carrier will be operable after strike form Zircon, especially if it strikes from front or rear. I shudder to think how far it can penetrate if it strikes at M5. In fact I think hitting front, rear or plunging will be almost mandatory if not fusing becomes very difficult.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:26 am

    Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:23 am

    GarryB wrote:Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...

    What about a 45 degree dive with a solid armor piercing warhead I would like to see them try and fix that at sea.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:49 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...

    What about a 45 degree dive with a solid armor piercing warhead I would like to see them try and fix that at sea.

    It probably already has this 45 degree dive on impact to hit what's in the lower part of the ship like engines and fuel and let the water goes inside to sink it. More usefull than hiting the deck.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:47 pm

    Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.

    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:53 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.

    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.

    Taking an unpredictable evasive course like the Iskander is still better and this seems to be the way Russian missile development is going.

    Seeing it is irrelivent if you cannot hit it.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:40 pm

    Still it's way more difficult if the incoming missile is flying few meters above sea surface.

    Climbing takes a lot of distance, all the more as the missile is flying faster, so to climb a few hundreds meters flying at Mach 5 would have to be performed while still kilometers away from the target, it would be like lighting up a bullseye on the incoming missile.

    On the other side, banking left and right on very low level would force intercepting missiles, who have very limited intercepting's course algorithms, to risks at any turn to risk to hit the sea surface.

    The incoming missile choose its own trajectory, based on its position, speed, course and flight attitude, so being able to perform manouvres in a relatively safe manner, while the interceptors are forced to change they route irrespective of their flight attitude, just to try to get to the incoming missile.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:53 pm


    Fresh one from the real world:

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:20 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.

    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.

    The P-700 Granit I believe performs a diving attack; it doesn't descend right to sea-level but maintains an altitude of some 100m or so (although it might have a 25m altitude mode too); or raises to this altitude during the last stage of its flight; so that it can dive right into the deck of an aircraft carrier.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:29 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    how it is easing? if rockets cannot hit it? The only thing that might work is actutally a "wall of steel" set by 57-127mm guns with shoot ammo. Like 300-500 tingsten balls each.

    Peŕrier wrote:
    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    That's why you have highly maneuvering missiles AAD missiles like Mefisto or Tor. Then guns with either gattling ones or medium caliber with tungsten balls.

    Peŕrier wrote:
    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.


    yes and the reason was called Kh-22


    Peŕrier wrote:
    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.

    A hypersonic missile on sea level? and you think a ball of plasma with couple thousands on Celsius is invisible? Not to mention range. I dotn think this is an accident that hypersonic missiles fly enough high to have less ari friction and shorten evenlope of AAD misiles.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:06 am

    Can anyone give an analysis that weighs the advantages and disadvantages between the P-1000/P-500 and P-700? AFAIK both have salvo networking capability, both are sea skimming, both have the same speed, both have the similar ranges(except P-1000 has an advantage here). What made soviets decide to use 2 very different missiles almost analogous in capability? Was it the ability for the P-700 to be vertically launched while the P-500 couldnt?
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:56 am

    What about a 45 degree dive with a solid armor piercing warhead I would like to see them try and fix that at sea.

    A near vertical strike would certainly be pretty devastating for any ship, but often fire is the most effective killer of ships really.

    Ironic that standard procedure for a ships captain when detecting an incoming threat is to turn head on to minimise the target area his ship presents... with a supersonic or hypersonic missile that is the last thing he should do as a penetration down the length of a ship would be catastrophic... a hole from above right through to the water would be devastating... that ship would not be operational anymore and would fight to stay afloat.

    At supersonic speed... mach 2 or more then there would be no need for a solid penetrating warhead... it is going to go right through to the water under the boat.

    Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    The Kh-22M either flys at mach 1.5 at sea level or mach 2+ in a high altitude flight of about 40,000m altitude to take it above the operational ceiling of the Phoenix and Standard SAM.

    A high speed dive on the target is the standard attack method for the high profile attack mode.

    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    First of all, don't believe what you see in hollywood movies... if the target is at 15,000m and the missile misses it is not coming around for another go... even in a close range shot.

    Second these Soviet/Russian missiles are designed for use against US Carrier groups... so it is assumed that the enemy has AWACS aircraft in the air and is expecting an attack so low altitude subsonic gives the enemy far too much time to deal with the threat.

    They wont just fire one or two supersonic missiles because they expect them all to get through... they will be launching as many missiles as they can spare... they will expect them to be detected early, and they expect quite a few to be shot down.

    I totally agree that very low flying targets are difficult targets, but with airborne AWACS aircraft they are not hidden until the last minutes anymore...

    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.

    The AS-6 still dives at the last second in sea skimming mode and actually hits the water about 20m short of the target ship... the enormous shaped charge explosive warhead then blows an enormous hole in the ship beneath the waterline...

    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.

    The problem is that even their fastest missile... MOSKIT or SS-N-22 Sunburn is not a mach 2 missile at sea level... it burns an enormous amount of energy to maintain high supersonic speed at low level in the warm thick air near sea level.

    The fastest missile they have is the Klub missile with the final rocket powered stage at mach 2.9 for the last phase of the attack.

    The new generation missiles and the missiles flying very high however have the advantage of the thin cold air at altitude where their jet engines and rocket engines are vastly more efficient and powerful... the IR signature means a mach 2 missile will be detected at long range whether it is sea skimming or flying high... the difference is that flying high means or will mean Mach 8+ potential speed with a scramjet motor and an enormous increase in range of flight... which includes the ability to perform manouvers to make interception difficult.

    Still it's way more difficult if the incoming missile is flying few meters above sea surface.

    From a ship, yes. From a carrier battlegroup with AWACS or AEW then not so much... it is never easy, but getting high speed at low level is not easy either.

    Climbing takes a lot of distance, all the more as the missile is flying faster, so to climb a few hundreds meters flying at Mach 5 would have to be performed while still kilometers away from the target, it would be like lighting up a bullseye on the incoming missile.

    The energy it costs to climb is available when it is time to come back down. The energy saved by flying through the thin cold air of high altitude makes it worth it even for a very short flight.

    I live in Dunedin and sometimes fly to Christchurch... a mere 300km away... when flying in a jet (737 or 767) they still spend fuel and time climbing, because the more altitude they gain the less fuel they use and all the extra fuel they use to climb they get back when they descend.

    Actually one drawback of low flight level is that if an intercepting missile hits the water in front of the incoming threat the water column would be devastating to the incoming missile whatever speed it was going... though the faster the worse the damage.

    I have read a book written by Shturmovik pilots in WWII who had trouble in wet areas or near rivers where water spouts from AAA cost a few aircraft even when they didn't hit the aircraft themselves.

    Can anyone give an analysis that weighs the advantages and disadvantages between the P-1000/P-500 and P-700? AFAIK both have salvo networking capability, both are sea skimming, both have the same speed, both have the similar ranges(except P-1000 has an advantage here). What made soviets decide to use 2 very different missiles almost analogous in capability? Was it the ability for the P-700 to be vertically launched while the P-500 couldnt?

    Different manufacturers and different missile families.

    AFAIK almost all new Soviet and Russian anti ship missiles can operate as a pack with satellite links to share information... and from what I have read that includes the Kh-35... which can be given a route to approach a target area and then scan for the target... and depending on the number of missiles in the attack assign targets to missiles.

    AFAIK the Kh-31 does not do that and is pretty much a direct flight system without waypoints or clever manouvers.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:13 pm

    No, a typical AA missile would dive, after the launch, to the same height of the incoming missile.

    That is exactly did to increase the opportunity window to successfully engage the incoming misssile.

    On the other hand, because the intercepting missile will be flying very low on the water, it means whether the incoming missile takes an evasive manouver the intercepting missile will have to counter it pulling an high G manouver at a very low height.

    While the incoming missile will choose its turn based on its own aerodynamics properties, the interceptor will have no choice but to try to counter the evasive manouver without knowing if the results will be a loss of height and energy driving it to ditch itself on the sea, or going so down to get its radar overwhelmed by the sea generated clutter.

    About hitting any ship at mach 2 or above, warheads and their casings cannot simply survive repeated impacts against bulkheads: even the outer hull in a naval ship is made of some centimeters thick plating.

    Any missile is designed to detonate its warhead within tns of seconds after it loose its sensors, because it reveal, together with a dramatic high G deceleration, that it has hit an hard target.

    Making the warhead able to penetrate tens of meters (actually even a few meters) before detonating itself, would force to reduce dramatically the actual payload and at the very same time would expose it to the risk of over shooting the target, having the missile piercing across the whole hull just to detonate harmlessly outside the opposite side.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:58 pm

    No, a typical AA missile would dive, after the launch, to the same height of the incoming missile.

    Most missiles you would use against an anti ship missile... especially a supersonic one will be medium to long range AAMs and will therefore have flight profiles adapted to the target... missiles like Meteor or R-27 would have dreadfully short ranges if they descended immediately to the height of a target and flew at that height all the way to the target...

    But of course it really does not matter anyway because whether the AAM is at the same height or below or above it will only get one attack... in hollywood movies where the missile travels at a similar speed to the aircraft target and they miss the first time but come around and have repeated goes at killing the target are just pure bullshit.

    First of all the rocket motor will have already burned out so the AAM will be coasting on momentum... if it misses the energy needed to turn 180 degrees will dramatically reduce velocity.... and AAMs need velocity because they have tiny wing surfaces that would be useless at the flight speeds aircraft fly at most of the time... the missile would just fall from the sky.

    About hitting any ship at mach 2 or above, warheads and their casings cannot simply survive repeated impacts against bulkheads: even the outer hull in a naval ship is made of some centimeters thick plating.

    cms of aluminium... when a 2 ton missile hits at two times the speed of sound... well there is a signature on this forum showing the results of a mach 2 hit... lets just guess what difference the extra speed of a mach 5 or faster missile has...

    Any missile is designed to detonate its warhead within tns of seconds after it loose its sensors, because it reveal, together with a dramatic high G deceleration, that it has hit an hard target.

    Any subsonic missile perhaps, but a high supersonic missile does not benefit from exploding too early... and indeed the most effective way to sink a ship is to set it on fire. Incendiary fragments... a couple of kgs each scattered throughout a ship that will explode on contact with sea water or the water from a fire hose is a much more efficient way of dealing with ships... distributed by high speed impact and a small spreader charge...

    Making the warhead able to penetrate tens of meters (actually even a few meters) before detonating itself, would force to reduce dramatically the actual payload and at the very same time would expose it to the risk of over shooting the target, having the missile piercing across the whole hull just to detonate harmlessly outside the opposite side.

    That is certainly an issue, but one that can be managed with smart fusing based on information gathered before impact...
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    archangelski

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  archangelski on Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:09 am

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:24 pm

    archangelski wrote:https://i.imgur.com/zzZprBe.jpg

    It's back in the water?

    When is this from?
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:16 pm

    Old photo.

    This is from when they brought it to Sevmash for the major Kapremont.

    hoom

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:40 pm

    Apparently there is major changes to the plan to the extent of requiring a new contract
    http://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=485479
    google translate wrote: "Given the fact that the Ministry of Defense made significant changes to the terms of reference, we, in general, now need to re-sign, probably, an additional agreement and continue to work on the basis of the additions already made." I can not say anything more, "- said A. Rakhmanov on the sidelines of the industrial exhibition "Innoprom".
    "Now we will understand how the amount of modernization will change, I mean already on the basis of the contract, we will continue working on it," A.Rakhmanov said
    Doesn't actually say whether its more new stuff or a cutback Suspect

    In context of contemplating not upgrading Moskva & apparently Poliment-Redut (which is supposed to be coming to Nakhimov) causing further delays on 22350 a cutback would seem likely.
    On the other hand, money saved on Moskva could allow more for Nakhimov...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:19 pm


    Russian Navy making shit up as they go along and changing their minds every 2 minutes like a spoiled golddigger whore as is their time honored tradition

    Like I said before: give them one ship type that they can have and tell them to either use it or go fuck themselves

    Never indulge bitches because they will always keep asking for more and will never do what they are told

    chicken

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  chicken on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:12 am

    hoom wrote:

    In context of contemplating not upgrading Moskva & apparently Poliment-Redut (which is supposed to be coming to Nakhimov) causing further delays on 22350 a cutback would seem likely.
    On the other hand, money saved on Moskva could allow more for Nakhimov...

    When did they say that Poliment-Redut was coming to Nakhimov? I was under the impression that it will get the same AA system as Peter the Great since the budget clearly included S-300FM and no mention of Poliment-Redut, only some new Dirk.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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