Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1443
    Points : 1604
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 21
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:57 am

    People who say that the lazarov will be scrapped are like the people who said that the unbuilt tu-160s were worthless junk that will surely be thrown away. Before you say that the Tu-160s were a nuclear triad priority, they aren't because Russia doesn't care that much for nuclear capable aircraft. The kirovs are also of equally extreme importance since theyre some of the only ships in the RuN that have plentiful working area AD.

    BTW for those saying that corvettes will do the job, what will happen when said corvettes encounter sea state 7? Will corvettes be able to interdict US shipping in the middle of the atlantic?
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 1291
    Points : 1289
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:52 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:People who say that the lazarov will be scrapped are like the people who said that the unbuilt tu-160s were worthless junk that will surely be thrown away. Before you say that the Tu-160s were a nuclear triad priority, they aren't because Russia doesn't care that much for nuclear capable aircraft. The kirovs are also of equally extreme importance since theyre some of the only ships in the RuN that have plentiful working area AD.

    BTW for those saying that corvettes will do the job, what will happen when said corvettes encounter sea state 7? Will corvettes be able to interdict US shipping in the middle of the atlantic?

    Ahuh Look you can make up all the excuses you want, Lazarov isn't going to be modernized. No matter how much you wish or pray to whatever god you believe.

    Lazarov also isn't part of any nuclear triad never was even in the Soviet days. The ship is done, I am not going to pretend otherwise.

    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 562
    Points : 602
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:16 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:People who say that the lazarov will be scrapped are like the people who said that the unbuilt tu-160s were worthless junk that will surely be thrown away. Before you say that the Tu-160s were a nuclear triad priority, they aren't because Russia doesn't care that much for nuclear capable aircraft. The kirovs are also of equally extreme importance since theyre some of the only ships in the RuN that have plentiful working area AD.

    BTW for those saying that corvettes will do the job, what will happen when said corvettes encounter sea state 7? Will corvettes be able to interdict US shipping in the middle of the atlantic?

    Ahuh Look you can make up all the excuses you want, Lazarov isn't going to be modernized. No matter how much you wish or pray to whatever god you believe.

    Lazarov also isn't part of any nuclear triad never was even in the Soviet days. The ship is done, I am not going to pretend otherwise.


    You do realise that repeating the same thing over and over without any evidence to support it does not make it true.

    And your claims to have been a political assassin and a marine certainly do not help your case.

    Can provide evidence as to why Russia would rather waste money scrapping a large nuclear powered ship rather than invest in restoring and modernising it into one of the worlds most powerful warships or are you just trying to make yourself feel better because you cannot stand the though of Russia having 4 Kirov class cruisers?

    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1443
    Points : 1604
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 21
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:17 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:People who say that the lazarov will be scrapped are like the people who said that the unbuilt tu-160s were worthless junk that will surely be thrown away. Before you say that the Tu-160s were a nuclear triad priority, they aren't because Russia doesn't care that much for nuclear capable aircraft. The kirovs are also of equally extreme importance since theyre some of the only ships in the RuN that have plentiful working area AD.

    BTW for those saying that corvettes will do the job, what will happen when said corvettes encounter sea state 7? Will corvettes be able to interdict US shipping in the middle of the atlantic?

    Ahuh Look you can make up all the excuses you want, Lazarov isn't going to be modernized. No matter how much you wish or pray to whatever god you believe.

    Lazarov also isn't part of any nuclear triad never was even in the Soviet days. The ship is done, I am not going to pretend otherwise.

    At the end of the day your speculations about the lazarev are just that: speculations. We haven't had any definitive statement regarding whats actually wrong with it.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3265
    Points : 3263
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:18 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:People who say that the lazarov will be scrapped are like the people who said that the unbuilt tu-160s were worthless junk that will surely be thrown away. Before you say that the Tu-160s were a nuclear triad priority, they aren't because Russia doesn't care that much for nuclear capable aircraft. The kirovs are also of equally extreme importance since theyre some of the only ships in the RuN that have plentiful working area AD.

    BTW for those saying that corvettes will do the job, what will happen when said corvettes encounter sea state 7? Will corvettes be able to interdict US shipping in the middle of the atlantic?

    Ahuh Look you can make up all the excuses you want, Lazarov isn't going to be modernized. No matter how much you wish or pray to whatever god you believe.

    Lazarov also isn't part of any nuclear triad never was even in the Soviet days. The ship is done, I am not going to pretend otherwise.


    If the modernization costs as much as a brand new lider then they shouldn't modernize it. Lider will be much better in terms of electronics, radars and integration ... maybe it will carry less weapons but it will still be armed very well compare to western ships.

    I think they should buy the ukrainian slava and modernize it. But they said it won't happen so ... let's wait for super gorshkovsand liders.
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 562
    Points : 602
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:27 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:People who say that the lazarov will be scrapped are like the people who said that the unbuilt tu-160s were worthless junk that will surely be thrown away. Before you say that the Tu-160s were a nuclear triad priority, they aren't because Russia doesn't care that much for nuclear capable aircraft. The kirovs are also of equally extreme importance since theyre some of the only ships in the RuN that have plentiful working area AD.

    BTW for those saying that corvettes will do the job, what will happen when said corvettes encounter sea state 7? Will corvettes be able to interdict US shipping in the middle of the atlantic?

    Ahuh Look you can make up all the excuses you want, Lazarov isn't going to be modernized. No matter how much you wish or pray to whatever god you believe.

    Lazarov also isn't part of any nuclear triad never was even in the Soviet days. The ship is done, I am not going to pretend otherwise.


    If the modernization costs as much as a brand new lider then they shouldn't modernize it. Lider will be much better in terms of electronics, radars and integration ... maybe it will carry less weapons but it will still be armed very well compare to western ships.

    I think they should buy the ukrainian slava and modernize it. But they said it won't happen so ... let's wait for super gorshkovsand liders.

    They should modernise their own Slavas and Sovremennys before they think of buying someone else's.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1528
    Points : 1530
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:34 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:They should modernise their own Slavas and Sovremennys before they think of buying someone else's.

    Yes to the Slavas, but forget the Sovs as their propulsion are troublesome and they are simply less useful than the Udaloys.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3265
    Points : 3263
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:46 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:They should modernise their own Slavas and Sovremennys before they think of buying someone else's.

    Yes to the Slavas, but forget the Sovs as their propulsion are troublesome and they are simply less useful than the Udaloys.

    They are not less usefull but way harder to modernize and it's not worth the money as they get gorshkovs.

    Slavas should be upgraded with inclined oniks lunchers like the one we saw on the nanushka corvette. It shouldn't be costly to do so. And having 2+2 in north and pacific fleets plus 1 kirov each would be really nice instead of just 3 with 1 in each fleet.

    Slavas and kirovs are the best ships available today in the world. If they can upgrade them and use them, they should go for it.

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20650
    Points : 21204
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:49 pm

    I would like to see them upgrading all ships above Frigate size with nuclear propulsion...

    Converting them to suit modular weapons and modular sensors should allow cheaper simpler future upgrades and adaptations.

    A good example is the UKSK launchers... their addition means any ship fitted with them... new or upgraded... can use any new Russian cruise missile weapon.

    When the universal SAM component is finished then that will be sorted too, so any upgrade to a SAM or cruise missile can immediately applied to most of the fleet... ie with 50 ships carrying UKSK launchers then introducing Zircon does not mean building new ships to carry it... it can already be widely deployed once the software upgrades have been done.

    For this reason and others money spent on upgrades is not wasted as it will make them more modular and they can be upgraded along with the new vessels.

    Having more systems in service means reduced costs and easier maintainence and training...
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3265
    Points : 3263
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:39 am

    GarryB wrote:I would like to see them upgrading all ships above Frigate size with nuclear propulsion...

    Converting them to suit modular weapons and modular sensors should allow cheaper simpler future upgrades and adaptations.

    A good example is the UKSK launchers... their addition means any ship fitted with them... new or upgraded... can use any new Russian cruise missile weapon.

    When the universal SAM component is finished then that will be sorted too, so any upgrade to a SAM or cruise missile can immediately applied to most of the fleet... ie with 50 ships carrying UKSK launchers then introducing Zircon does not mean building new ships to carry it... it can already be widely deployed once the software upgrades have been done.

    For this reason and others money spent on upgrades is not wasted as it will make them more modular and they can be upgraded along with the new vessels.

    Having more systems in service means reduced costs and easier maintainence and training...

    To do so you need to replace basically everything in the ship: wires, radars, computers, engines, weapons ... so you will need to "open" the ship and rebuild it totally. It is a heavy modernization.

    It's not like just adding uran luncher. It will cost as much as new ships. Kirovs and slava are worth it because they are big and you can put a lot of things like VLS or big radars. The superstructure will handle everything.

    For exemple someone said here that grigorovich class can't carry the big VLS system with 12 shtill or something like that because it was to heavy.

    For the rest Gorshkov and super gorshkov are better choices if they build them in great numbers the price will fall down and they will have all new systems not some mix of old and new.

    Nuclear propulsion is not magical neither. It is costly and it needs to be implemented since the design. Upgrading from normal propulsion to nuclear was never done and can be problematic.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 1291
    Points : 1289
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:05 am

    GarryB wrote:I would like to see them upgrading all ships above Frigate size with nuclear propulsion...

    Converting them to suit modular weapons and modular sensors should allow cheaper simpler future upgrades and adaptations.

    A good example is the UKSK launchers... their addition means any ship fitted with them... new or upgraded... can use any new Russian cruise missile weapon.

    When the universal SAM component is finished then that will be sorted too, so any upgrade to a SAM or cruise missile can immediately applied to most of the fleet... ie with 50 ships carrying UKSK launchers then introducing Zircon does not mean building new ships to carry it... it can already be widely deployed once the software upgrades have been done.

    For this reason and others money spent on upgrades is not wasted as it will make them more modular and they can be upgraded along with the new vessels.

    Having more systems in service means reduced costs and easier maintainence and training...


    That will never happen, nuclear propulsion in ships less than 10k tons? are you high.

    Come on man even for you that's a rather outlandish day dreaming fantasy
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20650
    Points : 21204
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:58 am

    To do so you need to replace basically everything in the ship: wires, radars, computers, engines, weapons ... so you will need to "open" the ship and rebuild it totally. It is a heavy modernization.

    I find integrating 21C computers with computers from the 1980s is really not as easy or as useful as it might sound.

    By making new systems modular you reduce the wires and chaos by quite a degree... that was the revolutionary thing the Soviets learned when they finally got a look at an American sidewinder missile... it was not more sophisticated, but its modular design made it much much better in terms of manufacturing and design and maintenance.

    In comparison the AA-1 Alkali is a complex mess of wires and components all mixed together...

    Simplifying and modularising the designs makes them easier to do further upgrades and keep them up to date.

    It's not like just adding uran luncher. It will cost as much as new ships. Kirovs and slava are worth it because they are big and you can put a lot of things like VLS or big radars. The superstructure will handle everything.

    Actually the size of the old systems and components means new items should be able to be fitted in... the problem areas will be large external structures like the anti ship missiles on the Slava class ships... but for example the Shtil launchers on the Sovs could easily be swapped out for redut launchers... the space taken internally for the missiles to be held vertically and moved to the single arm launcher can be replaced by a large number of vertical launch bins with no moving parts all ready to fire at targets from any direction.

    The new 130mm guns are half the weight of the old models.

    New build vessels will have all new systems... why not test them now on real ships by fitting them to older vessels as test systems... get all the problems worked out now. Increase the number of capable weapons at sea and reduce the different weapon types you need to keep operational...

    For exemple someone said here that grigorovich class can't carry the big VLS system with 12 shtill or something like that because it was to heavy.

    The Shtil seems to be for export, Redut and S-400F/500F would be more useful for the Russian navy.

    For the rest Gorshkov and super gorshkov are better choices if they build them in great numbers the price will fall down and they will have all new systems not some mix of old and new.

    Who is talking about a mix of old and new?

    Test everything... replace everything...

    End up with something more useful for the next 20 years or so.

    Nuclear propulsion is not magical neither. It is costly and it needs to be implemented since the design. Upgrading from normal propulsion to nuclear was never done and can be problematic.

    I never said it would be easy or cheap... just like developing four land vehicle families to replace all existing land vehicles for the Army is not simple or easy or cheap... but it is logical and practical... and can be affordable if spread out over a decade or so.



    That will never happen, nuclear propulsion in ships less than 10k tons? are you high.

    They have already developed small compact nuclear reactors for conventional subs as an aerobic power supply that needs little to no maintenance and can sit unused for years.

    Hell they even developed nuclear powered trains and aircraft...

    Come on man even for you that's a rather outlandish day dreaming fantasy

    They wont have a huge navy, so it would make sense to make it as powerful as possible...
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 1291
    Points : 1289
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:22 am

    Nuclear reactors will ever go in ships that small, please don't try and sell that like it's going to happen because you are crazy if you think so.

    also going by your logic there is zero point in making new vessels learn about shipbuilding once ships get a certain age modernizing them is pointless
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1528
    Points : 1530
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:07 am

    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:

    ...forget the Sovs as their propulsion are troublesome and they are simply less useful than the Udaloys.

    They are not less usefull but way harder to modernize and it's not worth the  money as they get gorshkovs.

    Slavas should be upgraded with inclined oniks lunchers like the one we saw on the nanushka corvette. It shouldn't be costly to do so. And having 2+2 in north and pacific fleets plus 1 kirov each would be really nice instead of just 3 with 1 in each fleet.

    Slavas and kirovs are the best ships available today in the world. If they can upgrade them and use them, they should go for it.


    Being a large ASW ship, the Udaloys have a capable (though bulky) bow sonar which the Sovs lack, and they have 2x helos as opposed to 1 on the Sovs .  Also their gas turbine powerplants give them a greatly improved reaction time. compared to the Sovs boilers & steam turbines.  The Udaloy main failing is lack of a medium-long range SAM system and radars, though it has navalised Tor/Khinzhal so has decent medium-short-range air defense.

    Yep, I'd plug for the Udaloys over the Sovs, and given that both Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are both currently under refit, it seems the RuN concurs.

    BTW regarding the Slavas, I'd rather see them retain the P-1000 Vulkans than spend money fitting with inclined UKSK.  The RuN has other UKSK ships coming on line, and the Slavas are useful for being able to deliver a killer punch to carrier with a single missile.  Regardless of any shit-posting from Atlantacist twerps, any hit by a Vulkan on a CGN will reduce a significant portion of the ship into a tangled flaming wreck and will certainly put an end to any air operations, ie mission kill.  Use Onyx & AShM versions of Kalibre (& Zircon Twisted Evil ) simultaneously with missile attacks from land-based aviation to overwhelm and degrade enemy defense, then launch Vulcan wolfpack to hit the flat-tops.
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1783
    Points : 1773
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:46 am

    For exemple someone said here that grigorovich class can't carry the big VLS system with 12 shtill or something like that because it was to heavy.
    The original display model shown had 36 missiles forward, Kashtans aft beside the hangar.
    Later model switched to 24 forward, Ak-630s aft as in completed ships.
    Weight is the suggestion given by some over at Balancer forums, specifically that the absence of Kashtans aft would mean 36 missiles forward would be bow heavy.
    I'd been of the understanding that Talwars have 36 missiles in the magazine for the single-arm launcher presumably balanced by the Kashtans aft, though looking again for that I'm seeing only references to 24 & its notable that only the first 3 had Kashtans, the 2nd 3 only have AK-630s aft like Grigorovich.
    Could be mainly just cost saving too.

    That will never happen, nuclear propulsion in ships less than 10k tons? are you high.
    Technically quite possible, a couple of US nuclear Cruisers were less than 10,000ton & many nuclear subs have been smaller than 5,000ton, even down to ~2,000ton.
    But retrofitting existing old ships to nuclear? Nope nope nope.

    I would understand Nuclear for new Liders & CV but would not want to see it on smaller surface ships nope.
    I think that 'all nuclear' suggestion was in response to the shipbuilding delays associated with waiting for Saturn to get upto speed with domestic naval gas turbines, should be not necessary now that they are ready for production.


    Last edited by hoom on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 562
    Points : 602
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:39 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:

    ...forget the Sovs as their propulsion are troublesome and they are simply less useful than the Udaloys.

    They are not less usefull but way harder to modernize and it's not worth the  money as they get gorshkovs.

    Slavas should be upgraded with inclined oniks lunchers like the one we saw on the nanushka corvette. It shouldn't be costly to do so. And having 2+2 in north and pacific fleets plus 1 kirov each would be really nice instead of just 3 with 1 in each fleet.

    Slavas and kirovs are the best ships available today in the world. If they can upgrade them and use them, they should go for it.


    Being a large ASW ship, the Udaloys have a capable (though bulky) bow sonar which the Sovs lack, and they have 2x helos as opposed to 1 on the Sovs .  Also their gas turbine powerplants give them a greatly improved reaction time. compared to the Sovs boilers & steam turbines.  The Udaloy main failing is lack of a medium-long range SAM system and radars, though it has navalised Tor/Khinzhal so has decent medium-short-range air defense.

    Yep, I'd plug for the Udaloys over the Sovs, and given that both Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are both currently under refit, it seems the RuN concurs.

    BTW regarding the Slavas, I'd rather see them retain the P-1000 Vulkans than spend money fitting with inclined UKSK.  The RuN has other UKSK ships coming on line, and the Slavas are useful for being able to deliver a killer punch to carrier with a single missile.  Regardless of any shit-posting from Atlantacist twerps, any hit by a Vulkan on a CGN will reduce a significant portion of the ship into a tangled flaming wreck and will certainly put an end to any air operations, ie mission kill.  Use Onyx & AShM versions of Kalibre (& Zircon  Twisted Evil ) simultaneously with missile attacks from land-based aviation to overwhelm and degrade enemy defense, then launch Vulcan wolfpack to hit the flat-tops.

    Well maybe they could just modify the P-1000 Vulkan so that it takes an evasive course like the Iskander.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1528
    Points : 1530
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:59 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Being a large ASW ship, the Udaloys have a capable (though bulky) bow sonar which the Sovs lack, and they have 2x helos as opposed to 1 on the Sovs .  Also their gas turbine powerplants give them a greatly improved reaction time. compared to the Sovs boilers & steam turbines.  The Udaloy main failing is lack of a medium-long range SAM system and radars, though it has navalised Tor/Khinzhal so has decent medium-short-range air defense.

    Yep, I'd plug for the Udaloys over the Sovs, and given that both Shaposhnikov and Chabanenko are both currently under refit, it seems the RuN concurs.

    BTW regarding the Slavas, I'd rather see them retain the P-1000 Vulkans than spend money fitting with inclined UKSK.  The RuN has other UKSK ships coming on line, and the Slavas are useful for being able to deliver a killer punch to carrier with a single missile.  Regardless of any shit-posting from Atlantacist twerps, any hit by a Vulkan on a CGN will reduce a significant portion of the ship into a tangled flaming wreck and will certainly put an end to any air operations, ie mission kill.  Use Onyx & AShM versions of Kalibre (& Zircon  Twisted Evil ) simultaneously with missile attacks from land-based aviation to overwhelm and degrade enemy defense, then launch Vulcan wolfpack to hit the flat-tops.

    Well maybe they could just modify the P-1000 Vulkan so that it takes an evasive course like the Iskander.
    Vulkans are an advanced weapon, and although the airframe is evolved from the old 1960s P-5/P-35 "Shaddock", they are entirely a different beast.  A Bazalt/Vulkan salvo functions as a wolf-pack:  

    The missiles were intended to be used in salvos; a submarine could launch eight in rapid succession, maintaining control of each through a separate datalink. In flight the group could co-ordinate their actions; one would fly to a higher altitude and use its active radar to search for targets, forwarding this data to the other missiles which remained at low altitude. The missiles were programmed so that half of a salvo would head for a carrier target, with the rest dividing between other ships. If the high-flying missile was shot down, another from the salvo would automatically pop up to take its place. All of the missiles would switch to active radar for the terminal phase of the attack  
    Source is wikipedia (a shit source but useful sometimes...)

    I think you can take for granted that final attack run isn't performed in a straight line to assist the enemies defenses...
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3265
    Points : 3263
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:52 pm

    Vulkans are an advanced weapon, and although the airframe is evolved from the old 1960s P-5/P-35 "Shaddock", they are entirely a different beast. A Bazalt/Vulkan salvo functions as a wolf-pack:

    The missiles were intended to be used in salvos; a submarine could launch eight in rapid succession, maintaining control of each through a separate datalink. In flight the group could co-ordinate their actions; one would fly to a higher altitude and use its active radar to search for targets, forwarding this data to the other missiles which remained at low altitude. The missiles were programmed so that half of a salvo would head for a carrier target, with the rest dividing between other ships. If the high-flying missile was shot down, another from the salvo would automatically pop up to take its place. All of the missiles would switch to active radar for the terminal phase of the attack
    Source is wikipedia (a shit source but useful sometimes...)

    I think you can take for granted that final attack run isn't performed in a straight line to assist the enemies defenses

    They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it os not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1528
    Points : 1530
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:15 pm

    Isos wrote:They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it is not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.

    They don't AFAIK pack with Oniks, only between themselves, though conceivable they could with Granit as both P-500/1000 and P-700 as both are products of NPO Mashinostroyeniye, so the flight control and targetting systems will be based on same technologies (for that matter, so is P-800 Oniks so I'd expect their salvos to operate similarly as well).

    Vulkan flies at M2.5, about same as Granit/Onyx.  Agreed that its not stealthy, but what heavy AShMs are?  Finally, as I said, the P-1000 is most useful when an enemies defenses have been degraded due to previous attacks.  P-1000 (and P-700) is the sledge hammer you use when the enemy is reeling and ready for the killer punch.  One hit and the biggest flat-top is mission-dead, and that's gotta be a weapon worth keeping.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20650
    Points : 21204
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:37 am

    The main problem of customised weapons (ie Vulkan and Granit) means that when you have a few ships carrying such weapons you need to stock all the ports it will operate from with a different missile system and equipment and crew to load and maintain it from.

    Fitting UKSK launchers means everywhere you stock standard missiles which will fit all ships... even if diverted to a different port than normal.

    The Vulkan and Grant are potent missiles, but in terms of performance Zircon and Onyx do something very similar in a much smaller and much lighter package allowing more to be carried....
    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 146
    Points : 158
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:25 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:They were supposed to be lunch from the different ships in the same time against a naval group. Now that kirovs and Oscars won't carry it anymore, they are useless if you have only 16 of them on each slava that won't work togather as they are in different fleets. It is a big missile not as fast as oniks and it is not using stealth technologies. Their main advantage was complexe attack approch in big numbers. Using them with oniks will be more difficult because the speed is not the same ajd we don't know if they can communicate togather.

    They don't AFAIK pack with Oniks, only between themselves, though conceivable they could with Granit as both P-500/1000 and P-700 as both are products of NPO Mashinostroyeniye, so the flight control and targetting systems will be based on same technologies (for that matter, so is P-800 Oniks so I'd expect their salvos to operate similarly as well).

    Vulkan flies at M2.5, about same as Granit/Onyx.  Agreed that its not stealthy, but what heavy AShMs are?  Finally, as I said, the P-1000 is most useful when an enemies defenses have been degraded due to previous attacks.  P-1000 (and P-700) is the sledge hammer you use when the enemy is reeling and ready for the killer punch.  One hit and the biggest flat-top is mission-dead, and that's gotta be a weapon worth keeping.

    Honestly I seriously doubt a carrier will be operable after strike form Zircon, especially if it strikes from front or rear. I shudder to think how far it can penetrate if it strikes at M5. In fact I think hitting front, rear or plunging will be almost mandatory if not fusing becomes very difficult.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20650
    Points : 21204
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:26 am

    Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 562
    Points : 602
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:23 am

    GarryB wrote:Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...

    What about a 45 degree dive with a solid armor piercing warhead I would like to see them try and fix that at sea.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3265
    Points : 3263
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:49 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Indeed, the flight speed is comparable to the velocity of fragments in an explosion... a 400kg warhead would actually be more efficient in the form of 350kgs of incendiary fragments and a 50kg spreader charge that scatters the fragments on impact... the material then spreads and penetrates on its own simply from its own velocity...

    What about a 45 degree dive with a solid armor piercing warhead I would like to see them try and fix that at sea.

    It probably already has this 45 degree dive on impact to hit what's in the lower part of the ship like engines and fuel and let the water goes inside to sink it. More usefull than hiting the deck.
    avatar
    Peŕrier

    Posts : 286
    Points : 286
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:47 pm

    Something flying at 5+ Mach, to perform a 45 degrees dive, would have in the first place to climb some hundreds if not thousand meters high before performing the dive, easing this way the work of interceptors.

    Flying low just above sea level is key to make interception difficult, first because of clutter generated by sea surface, and second because any high -G manouvre from an intercepting missile at very low height could easily turn into the interceptor ditching itself into the sea.

    AS-2 used to dive in the final course before hitting the target, and that flight pattern has been abandoned for very good reasons.

    Trying to intercept a sea-skimming missile is a hell of a job even against subsonic missiles, doing against a high mach number one would be way more difficult than intercepting whatever try to dive from medium heights, no matters its speed.

    Sponsored content

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 21 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat May 25, 2019 12:19 pm