Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Share
    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 1147
    Points : 1145
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:51 am

    kvs wrote:Cracked reactor housing, OMG.  

    More Bellona BS.   Where is the nuclear contamination?   Having some radioactive water leak is not the same as spreading
    meltdown corium around.  

    No the reactor it's self is cracked.....are you deranged or just delusional. you have any idea the kind of threat a cracked reactor has experts have said for years that ship is caused problems?.

    you know nothing about how nuclear ships are built they are built with a series of special compartments that in the event the reactor suffers a meltdown or whatever they can seal these bulkheads to prevent major leakage. All Nuclear ships have are designed with this in mind, Kirov's are no different. Still, they cannot stop it one hundred percent and it's been reported that nuclear radiation is coming from the vessel.

    the radiation is contained with the ship so far, they sealed all the bulkheads, everything when they abandoned it back in the 90's they are scared shitless to open the ship back up after all this time fearing what they would unleash. Since in the 90's Russia went to shit they never did anything about it when they should have, they just let that issue grow and grow and grow until it's turned into th problem they have today.

    They don't know how to safely dispose of it.

    Plus there is the issue of that 30 something-year-old nuclear fuel.

    Zvezdochka CEO Vladimir Nikitin (dunno if he still is or not) has stated multiple times "One can concede that a definite threat emanates from this ship to Severovinsk and its inhabitants,”

    So keep talking your BS
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1814
    Points : 1965
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:20 pm

    Sur, sure.

    A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...
    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 1147
    Points : 1145
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:04 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Sur, sure.

    A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...

    Peter the great was never in any kind of Nuclear risk but okay?

    Peter the great has also been taken care of, unlike a ship that was left to rust with the stated above issues for what 18 years now.

    so yes the situations are totally alike mhm oh and a whale and a bear are the same types of species

    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 2489
    Points : 2483
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:13 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Sur, sure.

    A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...

    Peter the great was never in any kind of Nuclear risk but okay?

    Peter the great has also been taken care of, unlike a ship that was left to rust with the stated above issues for what 18 years now.

    so yes the situations are totally alike mhm oh and a whale and a bear are the same types of species


    When you know how was russia after the ussr it's no suprise that they left it rust for 18 years. At least they will replace it with lider.

    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7346
    Points : 7440
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:26 pm

    '
    Condition of reactor is is secondary issue here

    Main one is price 

    Upgrading Lazarov will cost at least as much as brand new Borei SSBN, upgrading Ushakov could cost as much as brand new Yasen SSGN (maybe even more)

    That's one 3 decades old battlecruiser versus one brand spanking new nuclear submarine

    Numbers are clear, Lazarov and Ushakov have simply hit the price wall, no going around it
    avatar
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 470
    Points : 502
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:'
    Condition of reactor is is secondary issue here

    Main one is price 

    Upgrading Lazarov will cost at least as much as brand new Borei SSBN, upgrading Ushakov could cost as much as brand new Yasen SSGN (maybe even more)

    That's one 3 decades old battlecruiser versus one brand spanking new nuclear submarine

    Numbers are clear, Lazarov and Ushakov have simply hit the price wall, no going around it

    So the repiar and modernization would only cost as much as one submarine? Well thats a real bargain considering untill the first Lider class makes its apearence the Kirov class will be completely unmatched in its firepower.

    If you have to choose between 1 more of the most powerfull surface of ships in the world and 1 Yasen class submarine why would you ever take the Yasen?

    Surely a heavy missile cruiser would be more importanat than an attack sub.
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1814
    Points : 1965
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:40 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Sur, sure.

    A few years ago they also said that a nuclear catastrophe on the "Peter The Great" is imminent...

    Peter the great was never in any kind of Nuclear risk but okay?

    Peter the great has also been taken care of, unlike a ship that was left to rust with the stated above issues for what 18 years now.

    so yes the situations are totally alike mhm oh and a whale and a bear are the same types of species


    You want fake news? here you go: http://bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/accidents-and-incidents/2004-03-kuroyedov-declares-peter-the-great-could-explode-at-any-moment

    Listen, I also don't have high hopes that the 2 oldest Kirov class battlecruisers will be brought back to service.

    But man, you are going to extremes to make a point. Relax, people are entitled to have other opinions.
    There is no need to resort to unsubstantiated news (fake news) to win an argument.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1375
    Points : 1377
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:49 pm

    SS is clearly one of these clowns who takes PR releases at face value and lacks the sense to try read between the lines and determine the reality. I'm utterly uninterested in the yabberings of enviro-Nazis at Bellona, or articles in online media written by journalists who lack technical knowledge. The Zvezdochka director is simply stating a obvious fact (ie that there is a finite risk with a mothballed ship whose reactor has not been de-fuelled) but of course, the risk is never quantified. Its a vanilla statement with zero specifics, meant for political (or possible budget allocation) purposes.

    His "scenario" of a reactor breech and materials leaking into internal spaces is simply BS and based on imagination not facts. The reality will be that repairing the breakdown was expected to be expensive and therefore deferred, and then thrown into limbo with the USSR collapse. It hasn't been fixed since cuz its simply not a priority, and that strongly suggests that the damage isn't catastrophic and this chicken-little scenario is simply forum agitprop and worse-case wishful thinking....

    "They don't know how to safely dispose of it."... FFS... how many nuclear subs has Russia decommissioned? They have plenty of experience of disconnecting, isolating and encapsulating reactors for long term disposal in deep arctic waters, and I see no reason why Ushakov would be any different if they needed to do same. Yeah, Russians are all stupid and live in mud-huts... can't possibly figure out how to complicated stuff like decommission their own warships.... what a idiot...
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7346
    Points : 7440
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:20 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:'
    ...............

    So the repiar and modernization would only cost as much as one submarine?

    ''Only'' as much? Maybe for USN 1 billion bucks is pocket change but for Russian Navy it's massive amount especially since in Russia surface navy is bottom of the barrel when it comes to budget.


    The-thing-next-door wrote:....Well thats a real bargain considering untill the first Lider class makes its apearence the Kirov class will be completely unmatched in its firepower.

    Firepower means nothing when faced with overwhelming numerical superiority. 2 Burk destroyers easily match that firepower. How many Burks are available to USN at any given moment?


    The-thing-next-door wrote:....If you have to choose between 1 more of the most powerfull surface of ships in the world and 1 Yasen class submarine why would you ever take the Yasen?

    Because that Yasen is probably most capable SSGN in existence. It can easily take out as many enemy vessels as Kirov and unlike Kirovs they are by default designed to operate alone.

    Kirovs are great if you have access to Soviet sized navy and you have enough vessels to build a task force around them.

    Soviet Navy is gone, all those Soviet vessels are gone too as is Soviet naval doctrine. And even at peak of it's power Soviet Navy still favored submarines over surface ships.


    The-thing-next-door wrote:Surely a heavy missile cruiser would be more importanat than an attack sub.

    No it wouldn't.

    And how many good years are even left in those cruisers? I will tell you: 30 less than in brand new Yasen SSGN.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5981
    Points : 6008
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:41 pm

    I know that 1,5 or 2 billion for modernisation of Lazarev looks like beans to some... but lets see what is the budget of RuNav... now take in counts its surface fleet... thats mindblowingly alot when you put it in that aspect.

    Recycling of capital ships seems to be reaching its peak, because there are no new vessels, and wont be any for a decade.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3753
    Points : 3852
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  kvs on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:53 am

    "They don't know how to safely dispose of it."

    What an epically retarded statement. Russia is in the process of upscaling the BN-800 breeder reactor into the BN-1200 commercial
    variant set for deployment in the next ten years. The BN-800 is the largest and most sophisticated sodium cooled fast neutron breeder
    reactor. Russia is also the clear world leader in nuclear fuel "aka waste" pyrochemical processing technology. America shot itself in the head in this regard under Carter who banned fuel reprocessing. The French do not burn warhead plutonium in the reactors. Even though they had a breeder program (Superphenix) the Green-tards shut it down over 20 years ago.

    Russia is basically the only country on the planet with the practical (not theoretical) capacity to dispose of any nuclear waste. And that
    would be to burn it in breeder reactors instead of trying to store it for thousands of years.

    This board attracts some fine specimens of chauvinist ignorance. These specimens are nothing more than trolls since they have a net
    negative contribution to any discussion on this board.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2835
    Points : 2817
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:37 am

    It wasn't one of the members here who said that, but the link they quoted to try and sound as if what they say is correct and holds weight. Of course it puts his/hers claim in jeopardy when they have to resort to horseshit for sources such as common fake news.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18876
    Points : 19432
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 pm

    or you can spend a GINORMOUS sum of money to build a bigger NPP so it can travel 30kn for 25 years ... nah they made the pragmatic decision. Much lower risk, much lower cost and still an incredibly capable ship

    They have already made the mistake of using under powered NPPs for large ships... the Kirov class... and their experience means they have developed a new generation of NPP designed for big heavy ships... they are currently putting some on their icebreakers.

    Putting a NPP system on a big ship and then also putting another propulsion system on there to make it go fast enough to actually be useful is not a good solution... it was the only solution they had at the time... and not their first choice.

    Now they have the proper propulsion system... they will likely go with combined NPP and electric drive... meaning no big heavy shaft drives, no expensive gears or transmissions... just put the heavy NPPs in the best places in the hull and electric pods in suitable places and you have a powerful and manouverable large vessel... in fact you have a few if you do the same to the kuznetsov and the Kirov class vessels worth saving.

    Large cruisers are more useful than a carrier and can defend themselves so can go off on their own if needed... they are great for good will visits to allies and new potential trade partners.

    go look up on how its reactor got cracked and how worried they are about the ship. The reactor is has leaked for years that ship is a contaminated mess. Oh you prefer Russia spends billions trying to get it working and it's crew dieing from radiation posioning? get real holy shit.

    If the ships reactor is cracked and leaking then it NEEDS to be removed and dealt with... not left in place to continue leaking and deteriorating further.

    I am going to say this once to you, replacing a nuclear reactor is a lot more than simply opening up the back of the vessel they would have to gut the entire thing, install so much more shit. Do you know how the reactors in the kirov are designed? I do.

    OK... be a dickhead. Look up the word impossible in the dictionary and then get back to us... or not.

    Study ship construction, study how Nuclear reactors are installed then come back here and tell me shit okay?.

    Some sort of one way portal like a black hole I guess...

    They don't know how to safely dispose of it.

    Plus there is the issue of that 30 something-year-old nuclear fuel.

    Pretty obvious... tow the thing to international waters and sink it in deep water like any evil superpower would and just deny all knowledge...

    Upgrading Lazarov will cost at least as much as brand new Borei SSBN, upgrading Ushakov could cost as much as brand new Yasen SSGN (maybe even more)

    You are not getting it... they don't need another Borei or another Yasen... what they need are ships bigger than a frigate.... most of which are going to be nuclear powered anyway.

    That's one 3 decades old battlecruiser versus one brand spanking new nuclear submarine

    Numbers are clear, Lazarov and Ushakov have simply hit the price wall, no going around it

    They are going to have to test the electronics and sensors and systems of big ships at some stage... testing them in the next 5 years on upgraded existing ships, or in 10 years time on scratch new builds... which makes more sense?

    The weapons can also be tested but in the most part will just be larger numbers of the systems on Frigates and Corvettes with the exception of the bigger guns and bigger missiles... (152mm guns and S-400 and S-500 missiles).

    Yeah, Russians are all stupid and live in mud-huts... can't possibly figure out how to complicated stuff like decommission their own warships.... what a idiot...

    The Russians can be stupid, but they were smart enough to work out what funding they could get from the west and what the west was not interested in funding.

    ie the west will spend all the money in the world to destroy SS-18 missiles or Tu-160 bombers or Akula class SSBNs... even if it wont spend a cent to help Russian kids in orphanages or help hospitals get new drugs cheaper that might be useful...

    Firepower means nothing when faced with overwhelming numerical superiority. 2 Burk destroyers easily match that firepower. How many Burks are available to USN at any given moment?

    Why do you keep bringing up the US Navy?

    Who gives a fuck what a Berk can do... if the Russian upgraded Kirovs are fighting American Berks then those Zircon missiles will have mostly nuke warheads... so how many US sailors will be dead before all 20-30 Zircons have launched?
    And what is in the other 50-60 tubes?

    Because that Yasen is probably most capable SSGN in existence. It can easily take out as many enemy vessels as Kirov and unlike Kirovs they are by default designed to operate alone.

    Alone it will be dead much quicker than if operating with supporting friendly vessels.


    Kirovs are great if you have access to Soviet sized navy and you have enough vessels to build a task force around them.

    When a Frigate has the fire power of two cold war destroyers then the support of two or three destroyers and a couple of frigates would be plenty.

    Even more important in the cold war those ships operating with the Kirov would rely on that Kirov to coordinate the defence of the group... today it would all be digital and every new node like a sub or corvette would contribute to that defence bringing weapons and sensors and systems to add.

    And even at peak of it's power Soviet Navy still favored submarines over surface ships.

    And that didn't matter because most of the Soviets allies were in eastern europe so land based connections to europe and asia could not be effected or affected...

    In the next few years and decades Russia will need to look around the world for trade partners and if it wants to keep those trade routes open it had better be able to send a carrier group to keep it open... or the west will piss all over them...

    Bleat on about USN Berks all you want but they wont try any blockade shit against a strong Russian Navy... if it only has subs however Russia will need to sink a US ship to have their say... is that going to happen?

    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7346
    Points : 7440
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:Alone it will be dead much quicker than if operating with supporting friendly vessels.

    You don't really understand concept behind submarine do you?

    GarryB wrote:And that didn't matter because most of the Soviets allies were in eastern europe so land based connections to europe and asia could not be effected or affected...

    As are Russian allies now (what few there are left)

    They don't need navy to reach them and unlikely that they will be bothering even if they get any new ones. Soviet geopolitical welfare services are failed concept.

    GarryB wrote:In the next few years and decades Russia will need to look around the world for trade partners and if it wants to keep those trade routes open it had better be able to send a carrier group to keep it open... or the west will piss all over them...

    And they will be conneted to all of them via land or air. Unless you are one of those who entertain fantasies that Russia will be establishing foothold in South America?

    If Russia wants to get pissed onby West then getting involved naval dickwaving is exactly the right way to do it.

    Need I remind you that it will be 1 Russian naval budget and industry versus 20 Western ones?

    GarryB wrote: if it only has subs however Russia will need to sink a US ship to have their say... is that going to happen?

    Even corvette is enough to get the point across if other side knows that SSGN could be lurking nearby. WW1 is long over.

    GarryB wrote:Bleat on about USN Berks all you want but they wont try any blockade shit against a strong Russian Navy

    Against Russian navy stocked with SSGNs they definitely wont.

    Also ''bleat about USN Burks''? This is first time in over a year that I typed that word and it suddenly qualifies as ''bleating''?

    Then how should we call your constant ranting about Russian non-existant naval power? And no, missiles are not navy.

    One sole class of Russian ships that is superior to western counterparts (Gorshkov-class) is apparently no longer even being ordered. And they stopped at 4 hulls.

    ''Bleating'' is insufficiently appropriate word to describe what you do in that department, I don't think proper word for it even exists.








    Exclamation

    Now for some actual new on this topic:

    Source: Upgrade of heavy cruiser Peter the Great to start in 2020

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4910823

    ...According to the source in the defense industry, it was originally planned to start the modernization of the "Peter the Great" after finishing work on the "Admiral Nakhimov" so Navy would have at least one ship of this class in use. "However, due to delay of work on "Nakhimov" until 2022 this is not possible -  the flagship of the Northern fleet is not enough to be afloat before then," explained the source....
    avatar
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 470
    Points : 502
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:13 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Firepower means nothing when faced with overwhelming numerical superiority. 2 Burk destroyers easily match that firepower. How many Burks are available to USN at any given moment?

    How many anti ship missiles does a burk have? 0 oh well the Admiral Nakimov will have 80 zircons I do not see how that compares. And that is not mentioning the 6 Kashtans and abundance of mid range SAMs.

    The thing is untill the Lider class destroyers start production Russia needs powerfull surface ships and the Kirovs will fill that role nicely.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7346
    Points : 7440
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:34 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Firepower means nothing when faced with overwhelming numerical superiority. 2 Burk destroyers easily match that firepower. How many Burks are available to USN at any given moment?

    How many anti ship missiles does a burk have? 0 oh well the Admiral Nakimov will have 80 zircons I do not see how that compares. And that is not mentioning the 6 Kashtans and abundance of mid range SAMs.

    No it won't have 80. It will have 2 UKSK sets of Zircons which means 16 missiles. Rest of it will be Kalibrs and Onyx'. Again you ignore finances.

    As for amount of anti-ship missiles on Burks they don't have them AT THE MOMENT. But they can easily be slotted in VLS cells should need arise.

    The-thing-next-door wrote:....The thing is untill the Lider class destroyers start production Russia needs powerfull surface ships and the Kirovs will fill that role nicely.

    Russia needs powerful submarines not some 30 year old relics of the past.

    2 that are in good condition should be used, 2 piles of trash should be scrapped and new class should be built only after inventory of corvettes and frigates is fully stocked.

    And throughout it all, submarines. This is one thing Russian Navy can always count on (and they do).

    mnztr

    Posts : 133
    Points : 143
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:27 pm

    Austin wrote:I always thought that upgrading a 20 years old ship and a cold war relic was a bad idea considering they are spending a huge amount in doing this.

    I would have rather spent that money in buying more ships of 22350 or the new generation destroyer that would last longer and more modern.

    Good Luck to then in upgrading this monster.

    Depends on what the lifespan and operating cost of the resultant platform is. If they can refuel for 25 years and ship will last that long with 1 major and 2 minor refits then 2B is a screaming bargain. Very little fuel cost, massive firepower and tremendous show the flag value. Also it gives them a very low cost way to test the prove the Leider class weapons and sensors if they decide to build that beast. They also get to rev up the industrial base to build big ships. They can digitize the Kirov design and work with it to validate their design tools for building such ships.

    mnztr

    Posts : 133
    Points : 143
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:33 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Firepower means nothing when faced with overwhelming numerical superiority. 2 Burk destroyers easily match that firepower. How many Burks are available to USN at any given moment?

    How many anti ship missiles does a burk have? 0 oh well the Admiral Nakimov will have 80 zircons I do not see how that compares. And that is not mentioning the 6 Kashtans and abundance of mid range SAMs.

    No it won't have 80. It will have 2 UKSK sets of Zircons which means 16 missiles. Rest of it will be Kalibrs and Onyx'. Again you ignore finances.

    As for amount of anti-ship missiles on Burks they don't have them AT THE MOMENT. But they can easily be slotted in VLS cells should need arise.

    The-thing-next-door wrote:....The thing is untill the Lider class destroyers start production Russia needs powerfull surface ships and the Kirovs will fill that role nicely.

    Russia needs powerful submarines not some 30 year old relics of the past.

    2 that are in good condition should be used, 2 piles of trash should be scrapped and new class should be built only after inventory of corvettes and frigates is fully stocked.

    And throughout it all, submarines. This is one thing Russian Navy can always count on (and they do).

    If they are trash they will be scrapped. Lots of opinions about their condition. Only the Russian Navy knows what their condition is.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7346
    Points : 7440
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:35 pm

    mnztr wrote:..............
    If they are trash they will be scrapped. Lots of opinions about their condition. Only the Russian Navy knows what their condition is.

    Anything can be brought back into use if you throw enough time and money on it.

    Problem with last two Kirovs is that amount of time and money required does not justify end result.

    mnztr

    Posts : 133
    Points : 143
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:24 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    mnztr wrote:..............
    If they are trash they will be scrapped. Lots of opinions about their condition. Only the Russian Navy knows what their condition is.

    Anything can be brought back into use if you throw enough time and money on it.

    Problem with last two Kirovs is that amount of time and money required does not justify end result.

    That may be the case but I doubt anyone on this forum has enough info to make that determination. So far the Nahkimov project appears to be painfully expensive and slow, *but* they are learning a lot that has been forgotten about these ships and rebuilding the industrial base. Once the parts are all designed and integrated your units costs fall and the speed of execution is much faster. If there is irreparable damage to the reactor that would represent a massive stumbling block...Can they grab a reactor from one of the subs they are scrapping? Each ship has 2. The Nahkimov will cost at crazy ton of money, the next will be much cheaper, and 3rd and 4th even cheaper still. As long as they commit to the full scope up front it may be viable.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7346
    Points : 7440
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:02 am

    mnztr wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    mnztr wrote:..............
    If they are trash they will be scrapped. Lots of opinions about their condition. Only the Russian Navy knows what their condition is.

    Anything can be brought back into use if you throw enough time and money on it.

    Problem with last two Kirovs is that amount of time and money required does not justify end result.

    That may be the case but I doubt anyone on this forum has enough info to make that determination. So far the Nahkimov project appears to be painfully expensive and slow, *but* they are learning a lot that has been forgotten about these ships and rebuilding the industrial base. Once the parts are all designed and integrated your units costs fall and the speed of execution is much faster. If there is irreparable damage to the reactor that would represent a massive stumbling block...Can they grab a reactor from one of the subs they are scrapping? Each ship has 2. The Nahkimov will cost at crazy ton of money, the next will be much cheaper, and 3rd and 4th even cheaper still. As long as they commit to the full scope up front it may be viable.

    From that article I just posted you can see that Nakhimonov is taking so long that they will send Peter the Great into overhaul before Nakhimonov is even finished (2 year before to be more precise)

    By the time they are done with both it will be mid/late 2020s and they will need that industrial base and personnel with that specific experience to start working on Liders

    To say nothing of the fact that by then Lazarev and Nakhimonov will be another decade older, that's 40 years

    mnztr

    Posts : 133
    Points : 143
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:28 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    mnztr wrote:..............
    If they are trash they will be scrapped. Lots of opinions about their condition. Only the Russian Navy knows what their condition is.

    Anything can be brought back into use if you throw enough time and money on it.

    Problem with last two Kirovs is that amount of time and money required does not justify end result.

    That may be the case but I doubt anyone on this forum has enough info to make that determination. So far the Nahkimov project appears to be painfully expensive and slow, *but* they are learning a lot that has been forgotten about these ships and rebuilding the industrial base. Once the parts are all designed and integrated your units costs fall and the speed of execution is much faster. If there is irreparable damage to the reactor that would represent a massive stumbling block...Can they grab a reactor from one of the subs they are scrapping? Each ship has 2. The Nahkimov will cost at crazy ton of money, the next will be much cheaper, and 3rd and 4th even cheaper still. As long as they commit to the full scope up front it may be viable.

    From that article I just posted you can see that Nakhimonov is taking so long that they will send Peter the Great into overhaul before Nakhimonov is even finished (2 year before to be more precise)

    By the time they are done with both it will be mid/late 2020s and they will need that industrial base and personnel with that specific experience to start working on Liders

    To say nothing of the fact that by then Lazarev and Nakhimonov will be another decade older, that's 40 years

    Yes but they were parked for 16 years....although that may be even worse. Who knows what the state of the ships are, considering their limited use the hulls may still be ok, then its the NPPs, everthing else is chuckable.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18876
    Points : 19432
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:35 am

    As are Russian allies now (what few there are left)

    They don't need navy to reach them and unlikely that they will be bothering even if they get any new ones. Soviet geopolitical welfare services are failed concept.

    You hit the nail on the head... Russia does not need to recreate the Soviet Union, nor the Warsaw Pact... what it needs are good open trade relations with countries that are also growing and wont try to screw it like the west does at every chance it gets. It needs a trading relationship with countries who don't feel superior and think it is their right to change governments in other countries but spits the dummy at the suggestion anyone else might influence their elections... even though they have been bought by big business for decades now. Imagine Russia thinking it has more say in a US election than Google or Microsoft...

    New trade is not going to come to Russia... Russia needs to go to the rest of the world that is out of reach of a train because there are too many blockable routes... learn from the pipeline through the Ukraine.

    And they will be conneted to all of them via land or air. Unless you are one of those who entertain fantasies that Russia will be establishing foothold in South America?

    What the fuck are you smoking.... Russia couldn't even secure a land or air route to Serbia when your NATO friends were stealing Kosovo from you... if they can't even reliably get to such a close country without EU permission what chance do they have with the rest of the world... and yes, I am including Asia, Africa, and central and south America.

    Fuck the US... they have taken away eastern europe and parts of the former soviet union and have told Russia to forget about any influence in the Ukraine... why would you listen to them and ignore the people of central and south america?

    There are countries there that don't even know what a normal trade relationship is because the US has screwed them over so many times...

    If Russia wants to get pissed onby West then getting involved naval dickwaving is exactly the right way to do it.

    Wake up... Russia is getting pissed on by the west ANYWAY.

    A powerful navy means they will aim wide and miss your shoes... I am not saying they need to be the new super power and have a navy bigger and more powerful than NATO and the US and China combined. What they need is a powerful relatively small navy that can look after itself and no one will mess with.

    Corvettes able to carry Zircon missiles is a great start.

    Need I remind you that it will be 1 Russian naval budget and industry versus 20 Western ones?

    And there you go making it a dick measuring competition... who gives a fuck how big US carriers are... note I am not saying the US has 100K ton carriers so Russia needs 200Kton carriers. I am saying Russia needs air support where ever they go and an air defence system able to protect a range of ships, which all the ships of the group can contribute to.

    I don't care how fast the Chinese or South Koreans can build ships either.

    Making craps old tech ships would be easy for the Russians too.

    They already have plenty of old vessels.

    Even corvette is enough to get the point across if other side knows that SSGN could be lurking nearby. WW1 is long over.

    Against any decent country, no it would not be... how is an SSGN going to stop you sinking a corvette? What is an SSGN going to do anyway... what it could do whether that corvette was there or not... so the corvette does nothing except when more cruise missiles are fired than that corvette could carry reveal there is an SSGN there too.

    Having a battlecruiser there and a few destroyers shows you mean business and you wont put up with a blockade on country x whose only crime was trading with Russia.

    Against Russian navy stocked with SSGNs they definitely wont.

    Of course.... all Russia needs to defeat these super berks is submarines... just like it has always been... funny thing is that the Soviet Union had SSGNs when the US blockaded Cuba... why didn't they break the blockade then?

    Perhaps because to actually break a blockade with an SSGN you actually have to use a real anti ship missile, which means pretty much an act of war... of course you could argue the blockade in the first place was also an act of war but try arguing with words with the west... they always win those because they are lying censored who don't know the meaning of words in the first place.

    Then how should we call your constant ranting about Russian non-existant naval power?

    I have made my position quite clear. Russia does not need nor would benefit from a huge powerful navy right now... they are not in an economic position to exploit the opportunities it would create and the larger sized force would be a burden that held them back rather than promote growth.

    In 15-20 years time however a strong navy will allow them to become a true global power... something they have never really been in the past because they have been contained during the cold war by the western enemy and post cold war by an evil western enemy that does not like competition.

    Problem with last two Kirovs is that amount of time and money required does not justify end result.

    Is your opinion, which I do not agree.

    Big ships are generally very solid and unless there were collisions or neglect they can usually be kept going for decades,

    The argument that they would need to be completely stripped down and you might as well start from scratch holds no water... the majority of components and equipment will need to be fully replaced anyway, but building the hull would require a shipyard space better used for other vessels and other programmes.

    Can they grab a reactor from one of the subs they are scrapping?


    They have no doubt been developing new generation equipment to go into new build ships... just like they are testing equipment from the Su-57 into the design of the Su-35 it makes as much sense to do the same with ships as well... you can piss around with computer models all you like but the only way to be sure is put it in a real ship. They have five Orlan hulls to play with... wasting a billion dollars on a Kirov upgrade makes rather more sense than spending 5 billion on a brand new cruiser and having a Zumwaltski that does not come cheap either but does not fucking work.

    They have developed new marine reactors... I would remove the reactors from the two Kirovs with potential anyway... it is just like Robocop... don't save the fucking arm... what is the point of body armour if you have a weak human arm left in the mix?

    mnztr

    Posts : 133
    Points : 143
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  mnztr on Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:59 am

    Saying they should just build more subs is simply not realistic. Each of their yards has clusters of expertise. You can't just have any yard build a SSN, or SSBN. Also their supply chain has the same restrictions, and then there is the need to create jobs, preserve jobs, preserve expertise etc etc etc. Its hugely complicated. They want more ships, they have certain shipyards that build certain types of ships so to a degree they will buy the types of ships the yards can build. They have laid down a lot of nuclear subs, and I honestly highly doubt they can build them at a much higher rate unless they ramped up the supply chain over 4-5 years. What you are seeing is the result of rebuilding the shattered supply chain for over 10 years.
    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 1147
    Points : 1145
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:15 am

    People still bitching that Russia needs to modernize the Laza and Uka?.

    those ships are going to be scrapped, christ stop talking about them, It's getting old.

    Only two of the four will remain in service accept that fact or go cry your tears some place else.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:51 am