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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    Militarov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:18 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Benya wrote:"I think we will return the Admiral Nakhimov cruiser to the Navy in 2020-2021. We are working to this end with due account taken of the changes in the amount of work to be done," Rakhmanov said.

    Hmmm...  this suggests that the scope of the modernisation has changed since the work started in 2014?  It's possible however that the delay is due to unplanned and/or additional repairs due to unexpected condition of vessel or equipment.  For instance, now that the reactor has been de-fuelled and can be fully inspected, its possible that the refurbishment will be more involved (purely conjecture, just an illustrative example of what can happen in large complex rebuilds).

    Plus rumors say they overestimated hull integrity status, so they will probably need to repair and reinforce it more than originally planned.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:04 pm

    Plus rumors say they overestimated hull integrity status, so they will probably need to repair and reinforce it more than originally planned.

    But surely it is vastly more important to meet deadlines set in stone... they should paint over the cracks and get it delivered when they said they would deliver it and deal with all the problems later... oops, no hang on, this is not the F-35 programme and they are not five years old.


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    hoom

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Wed May 31, 2017 12:29 pm

    Bunch of onboard/drone footage of Nakhimov progress in this

    Deck around the UKSK going in, confirms the 10* modules = 80 missiles.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  zg18 on Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:43 pm

    Nakhimov


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  eridan on Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:44 pm

    What can be, with fair certainty, surmised about Nakhimov's subsystems once it reenters service around 2021 or so?

    10 modules of UKSK mean 40 missiles? Kalibr is mentioned in various newsbits, but UKSK is perfectly capable of launching Oniks, is it not? Is it fair to expect a mix of Kalibr and Oniks missiles?

    What about Tsirkon? Some media have been speculating about that as well, - but assuming its development will indeed end by 2021, what do we know about the missile itself? How compatible is it with UKSK?

    Then there's the old S300F system. Is it realistic that will be replaced 1-on-1 basis with a navalized S400?

    What about Redut? Will S400 silos be made modular, so Redut missile can be used as well?

    Or will old SA-N-4 launcher locations be replaced with a VLS module or two per location, containing only Redut?

    What about SA-N-9? What sort of replacement can be expected? Perhaps pretty much same sort of launcher, only with newer variant missiles and new targeting systems?

    Any news about radar suite on Nahkimov? Something new, to serve all the mentioned missiles? Or a set of various targeting radars for various systems mentioned? Is there a talk of integrated sensor mast?

    Paket instead of older RBU systems? Any details?
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    hoom

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:55 pm

    No official comprehensive list.
    There was a price-list of things being purchased http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1124199.html but its pretty old, some things may be wrong/updated/missing.

    Some things we know for sure like 10*8 = 80 UKSK cells.

    Expectation is certainly both Kalibr & Onyx, given the primary task of zapping US CVBGs an Onyx heavy loadout is probably going to be more common. (but a trip to Syria with a crapton of Kalibr would be a likely early task if the damn war is still going by then)

    Zirkon is definitely expected to be UKSK compatible -> would replace Onyx for anti-CVBG task.

    Upgrade to S-300FM (PtG has one S-300F, one S-300FM) probably somewhat upgraded from PtG but who knows how much dunno
    No naval S-400 known to be in the works. (possible that the S-300FM will be roughly equivalent)

    9M-96 missile is part of the S-400 system already, whether it can be mounted on the S-300F/FM carousel who knows?
    Hasn't been any official mention of Redut VLS cells being part of the upgrade but most people assume it will be.

    Unknown what is planned for the Osa or Tor, we do know that the Land Tor has had recent upgrade but a lot of people assume Redut cells would be put in instead of Tor.

    Main radar is upgrading to Podberezovik as seen on Ustinov, a modern Fregat, Poliment is on the list, Puma for the gun.

    Paket yes, also the anti-sub Kalibr.

    Also replacing the Kashtans with Pantsir-M.
    New EW/ECM stuff, sonars & modern integrated battle management system, new Reactors etc.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:35 am

    What I would like to see is the new powerful compact reactors designed for new carriers being fitted to replace the complex combined propulsion system the Kirovs were built with.

    The UKSK is a universal missile launcher designed to carry anti sub, anti ship, and land attack missiles.

    It should be able to carry all the members of the Klub family including the subsonic land attack and anti ship missile, the mach 2.5 anti sub ballistic missile that delivers a torpedo into the water up to 40km from the ship, and also the two stage subsonic and supersonic Klub anti ship missile with the rocket powered terminal stage that penetrates the ship targets defences at mach 2.9.

    It is also compatible with the Kalibr long range cruise missile and the Onyx/yakhont/brahmos family of supersonic anti ship missiles that also have land attack capabilities added to their design.

    It will be compatible with the Zircon hypersonic missile too which no doubt will come in a combined land attack and anti ship version.

    It would be rather cool to see the twin 130mm guns replaced with the 152mm coalition turret, and Kashtan replaced with Pantsir systems as well.

    The UKSK launchers replace both the Granit (SS-N-19) and the Silex (SS-N-14) missiles at the front with rather better performing weapons of both types.

    In terms of SAMs upgraded existing models in new fixed vertical launch tubes should allow an increase in number of missiles and a modest increase in performance of the weapons themselves, though eventually adding S-500 would be useful too.

    the rotary arrangement of the S-300 and the ability to inspect the missiles below decks meant large empty volumes of space around the missiles. A fixed array of launch tubes could double or triple the available ready to launch missiles without taking up any more space.

    Improved automation and fixed systems rather than rotary mobile systems should simplify and reduce space and weight and crew size... freeing up even more internal space.

    Some unmanned aerial and underwater vehicles could be added too.

    Going for all electric propulsion could mean no huge shafts and pod engines and the ability to put the nuclear power plant in the centre of mass of the ship to improve ballast and balance.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  eridan on Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:12 am

    So... basically there is no confirmed news yet whatsoever about Zircon, S400, Tor, Redut, radars etc? It's all unsubstantiated rumors in the media and various internet forums?
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:08 am

    Zircon 100% yes... the UKSK launcher is a universal launcher for land attack, anti ship, and anti sub cruise missile weapons and ballistic missile weapons for surface ships.

    New missiles will be compatible with the launcher because all new and upgraded vessels will have the UKSK launcher.

    Keep in mind that this wont be the last upgrade for these vessels... they will likely remain in service for a few decades to come so even if they don't get a full comprehensive upgrade this time likely the next time they will get more done.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  eridan on Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:17 am

    GarryB wrote:Zircon 100% yes... the UKSK launcher is a universal launcher for land attack, anti ship, and anti sub cruise missile weapons and ballistic missile weapons for surface ships.

    New missiles will be compatible with the launcher because all new and upgraded vessels will have the UKSK launcher.

    Keep in mind that this wont be the last upgrade for these vessels... they will likely remain in service for a few decades to come so even if they don't get a full comprehensive upgrade this time likely the next time they will get more done.

    I am looking for specific citations from the media, as they often are given for certain stuff.

    This person, who is head of this and this, said the following, in this publication, on this date.

    Like "Zircon is compatible with UKSK" or "Zircon will be a part of Nahkimov's armament when it returns into service" or "Redut/S400/S500 will be implemented in Nakhimov during the modernization" And so on.

    Do any of such citations exist in any of the media?

    We can all we be 90% sure about answers to those questions, but still an actual confirmation from an official source would be better.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:51 am

    The UKSK is a universal launcher for naval missiles.

    That is what it is for.

    Do you think they will develop a special version for the upgrade of Kirov class cruisers to reduce the flexibility of the vessel by only being able to launch Onyx missiles and not anything newer?

    These Kirov vessels will be their largest in service vessels for some time, and while they might not be wanting to spend trillions on them they will at least arm them properly... 10 UKSK launchers means that the upgraded vessels can replace the 20 Granit anti ship missiles, and the 14 SS-N-14 of one ship with up to 80 missiles.

    The klintok missiles will likely be replaced with a larger number of upgraded missiles of the same type... simply because they work and the new missiles are more compact so twice as many could be carried and have better performance.

    The S-300 system of missiles was only carried on the Slava and Kirov class ships and so the new system, poliment redut will be a much more widely deployed system offering a much wider range of missiles to be carried by more vessels.

    The Kirov class vessels will almost certainly also get S-500 missiles when they are ready... because that is what you would put on cruisers.

    Large missile S-300 and S-400 missiles are the same size so I would expect a new launcher fitted to a new or upgraded cruiser intending to carry an S-300 missile (old) would be fitted with the electronics and systems to support the newer more capable and longer ranged missiles (S-400).

    I suspect the S-500 will likely be bigger still and need its own dedicated launcher, but that is just speculation on my part.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  eridan on Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:00 pm

    So are there any quotes on any of the issues from officials?
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:02 pm

    There are some quotes yes, in Russian.

    Definitely quoted things are:
    10* UKSK modules = 80 missiles
    Zirkon in future (its pretty clearly being developed for UKSK)
    Replacement of Kashtan with Pantsir-M
    I think Paket has been quoted.

    Edit: You'll find a bunch of what official quotes there are here http://bastion-karpenko.ru/11442-modernizacia/

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  eridan on Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:33 pm

    hoom wrote:There are some quotes yes, in Russian.

    Definitely quoted things are:
    10* UKSK modules = 80 missiles
    Zirkon in future (its pretty clearly being developed for UKSK)
    Replacement of Kashtan with Pantsir-M
    I think Paket has been quoted.

    Edit: You'll find a bunch of what official quotes there are here http://bastion-karpenko.ru/11442-modernizacia/

    Thanks! I did find a named quote on Redut being planned, so that's something. Zircon quotes are all from unnamed sources, sadly.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  chicken on Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:33 am

    eridan wrote:
    hoom wrote:There are some quotes yes, in Russian.

    Definitely quoted things are:
    10* UKSK modules = 80 missiles
    Zirkon in future (its pretty clearly being developed for UKSK)
    Replacement of Kashtan with Pantsir-M
    I think Paket has been quoted.

    Edit: You'll find a bunch of what official quotes there are here http://bastion-karpenko.ru/11442-modernizacia/

    Thanks! I did find a named quote on Redut being planned, so that's something. Zircon quotes are all from unnamed sources, sadly.

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/january-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/2310-russian-shipyard-sevmash-ordered-new-equipment-for-overhaul-of-kirov-class-cruiser-nakhimov.html

    Here's a list, translated from google. No Redut. Pantsir seems unlikely since they call the replacement a new Dirk and not Carapace or Shell. I don't know if this is all of it since the satellite photo shows they've removed the gun and yet I don't see anything on the list about the gun, except Puma.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:49 am

    Dirk is the replacement for the Kinzhal... ie sea based TOR.

    Carapace or Shell would be replacing Kashtan-M.

    Interesting that they have removed the gun...

    Question is, are they replacing it with a more stealthy twin 130mm gun or a new twin 152mm gun...

    Hoping for the latter.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  T-47 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Question is, are they replacing it with a more stealthy twin 130mm gun or a new twin 152mm gun...

    Hoping for the latter.

    Why not the big momma 203mm beauty Razz Razz Razz Twin 203mm is something suites in a 28kt cruiser!

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  eridan on Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:55 am

    chicken wrote:

    Here's a list, translated from google. No Redut. Pantsir seems unlikely since they call the replacement a new Dirk and not Carapace or Shell. I don't know if this is all of it since the satellite photo shows they've removed the gun and yet I don't see anything on the list about the gun, except Puma.

    On a second try, you're right, i mistakenly took a quote about Redut to be by a named source. It was again an unnammed source claimed by media.

    As far as that subsystem list - can we  take that as gospel? How do we know it's the real deal? Also, if it is, how do we know it is comprehensive? Maybe some stuff has simply not been contracted back then when the list appeared.

    As far as my translation skills allow me - Dirk-M seems to be Improved Kashtan, not a Kinzhal variant.

    What seems weird for me inclusion of S300FM. That's a system from the 90s. Unless it's in reality something like S300FM2 (my own addition, don't know if it exists), something that leverages advacements from at least s300PM2 if not even s400.


    Also, that webpage which lists news about Kirov modernization did have one interview where some official expressed doubts about viability of Pyotr the Great being modernized. Having in mind that Nahkimov is going to be 3 years late, does it mean there are *some* chances PtG will not be modernized?  Alternatively, if Nakhimov is indeed going to get just the stuff from the list, it'd mean its only a half assed modernization. And if so, could we see a different set of subsystems on PtG if it is modernized sometime in 2025 or so?
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:54 pm

    As far as my translation skills allow me - Dirk-M seems to be Improved Kashtan, not a Kinzhal variant.

    Your translation skills are interesting... do you think Dirk (meaning long sharp thrusting dagger) is related to Kashtan (chestnut), or Kinzhal (dagger) with its export version called Klinok (blade).

    BTW I would love to see a 203mm huge naval gun, but there has not been evidence such a weapon actually exists.

    We know there was colaboration between the navy and army regarding the 152mm coalition guns and a 70km range weapon with guided shells would be very interesting even if a 203 version with bigger range and heavier shells would be even more interesting too for Cruisers.

    Destroyers can have 152mm guns...


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  eridan on Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:35 pm

    Semantics wise the linage of words does point towards Kinzhal. But if one googles dirk-m, results point towards kortik variant for some reason. Google translate seems to replace word "kortik" with word "dirk" in some contexts.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    As far as my translation skills allow me - Dirk-M seems to be Improved Kashtan, not a Kinzhal variant.

    Your translation skills are interesting... do you think Dirk (meaning long sharp thrusting dagger) is related to Kashtan (chestnut), or Kinzhal (dagger) with its export version called Klinok (blade).

    BTW I would love to see a 203mm huge naval gun, but there has not been evidence such a weapon actually exists.

    We know there was colaboration between the navy and army regarding the 152mm coalition guns and a 70km range weapon with guided shells would be very interesting even if a 203 version with bigger range and heavier shells would be even more interesting too for Cruisers.

    Destroyers can have 152mm guns...

    203 mm gun against aerial targets Sad

    You won't have as many rounds as for a smaller calibr. Unless if you manage to use Pantsir missiles or Tor misiles from it. That would be a great weapon. Even guided shells won't be that much efffective if they don't have sustained propulsion to go on the target.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  T-47 on Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:36 pm

    Isos wrote:

    203 mm gun against aerial targets Sad

    No not aerial targets, for surface and sea targets. One 203mm shot can put a big hole in any type of hull exists today. Also for artillery support role.

    You won't have as many rounds as for a smaller calibr. Unless if you manage to use Pantsir missiles or Tor misiles from it. That would be a great weapon. Even guided shells won't be that much efffective if they don't have sustained propulsion to go on the target.

    Why you have to use the main gun? Kirov is a big ship. It'll have enough AD units remains throughout the ship (Pantsir, Tor, S-3/4/500, 30mm CIWS etc.).
    And the current 203mm RAP shells already got 57.5km range. I think its easy improvement for current techs to reach 70km target with decent accuracy!
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:18 am

    203 mm gun against aerial targets

    Actually a 203mm round would be exceptionally effective against low flying fast missiles... the onboard radar system would plot the course of the target and project an intercept point... a 203mm shell fired and the 110kg projectile detonated in the air at the interception point the spread of fragments meaning any manouvers the target might have made after the round was fired is automatically allowed for even without guided shells because of the spread of fragments.

    Add guided shells and it should be a one shot one kill scenario where the shell is detonated in the path of the incoming threat showering a wall of fragments into the incoming weapon.

    Of course its primary use will be against sea surface targets and land targets.

    The 152mm gun fires 40kg rounds up to 70km in range with a CEP of less than 10 metres... a 203mm gun should manage 110kg projectiles to at least 100km with a similar level of accuracy.

    Semantics wise the linage of words does point towards Kinzhal. But if one googles dirk-m, results point towards kortik variant for some reason. Google translate seems to replace word "kortik" with word "dirk" in some contexts.

    Well we have seen various articles in threads on this forum that state that the replacement for the naval TOR will be another Naval TOR with upgraded missiles.

    We also know that the naval Pantsir has been tested and seems to have been successful... it was also mentioned to come in two different versions... one more stealthy than the other for newer vessels and the other less stealthy model for upgrades.

    Assuming both these things to hold true then it makes sense to expect upgrades on vessels that formerly had Naval TOR and Kashtan to have improved TOR and pantsir based defences... because those are the upgrades for those systems.

    this is likely the first of many upgrades these vessels will have...


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