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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    gaurav

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  gaurav on Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:05 am

    George1 wrote:
    In accordance with the plan of the factory makes replacement and upgrade the ship's life support systems, electronic weapons,
    the ship's energy systems modernization plan also provides for the replacement of complex missile and artillery weapons "Admiral Nakhimov ", - said the source.

    Happy new year 2017 Russ defence posts.  cheers

    Once again confusion is in the air. See I told you Rus navy will breathe confusion till the ship is ready.
    What I understand Life support systems, electronic weapons(What electronic warfare ..??) , and power plant and cabling/wiring technology will be upgraded.
    But about the weapons/artillery better to wait and see rather than draw the conclusion.

    "I will belive it when I see it"  Cool  must be algorithm for all navy ships having granit missiles in their previous generation.
    Lets wait for the testing of Zircon and then see what missile launchers WILL BE PLACED.
    UKSK/Universal launcher or some other launchers.Kazan has given a well timed shock not to believe anything on here say.
    We know that UKSK in severodvinsk was replaced and changed to some (seriously different launcher in Kazan submarine launche tubes).
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:20 am

    [quote="gaurav"]
    George1 wrote:
    ..................

    We know that UKSK in severodvinsk was replaced and changed to some (seriously different launcher in Kazan submarine launche tubes).

    We most definitely do not know that.

    Do you have source for this?

    They already ordered 10 UKSK launchers for Nakhimonov. What makes you think they will change them this late into the process?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:30 am

    Being they are from back when they were still looking to make the land version twin & that changed to single barrel it's probably a no-go but would be pretty cool.

    The Army version lost its second gun to reduce height and weight for air transport capability.

    Hardly an issue with a gun mount on a ship where the increase in weight is not problem at all while the increase in rate of fire would offer potential for one turret instead of two... meaning more space for vertical launch tubes for missiles...


    Replacing 30mm CIWS is very unlikely, 57mm ammunition is wastly more expensive even when you pass it though value-cost. 57mm ammunition has number of advantages but cost is not one of them and cost is main issue with RuNAV to start with. Now 57mm cannons replacing AK-630s in future, sure i see that as plausible, but hybird systems gun-missile very doubtful.

    It is not just about cost. A 57mm shell killing small manouvering targets out to 10km range is more effective with one or two shells than a 30mm gun turret firing hundreds of shells at much closer targets.

    Today you can make very complex fused 30mm ammunition too, age when it required at least 50+ mm calibers are gone.

    Very limited as to how much actual explosive material can be contained in a 30mm shell... and again the range is limited.

    When anti ship missiles have payloads of hundreds of kgs of HE then even destroying the missile at 300m would not be good enough. The further out you can hit it and defeat it the better.

    Also against light speed boats a 57mm shell will have rather more punch than 30mm shells...

    Germans tried adapting Phz-2000 for naval use but determined its very hard to offer adequate salt/rust protection for system.

    But that is key... the Coalition was a joint programme between the army and navy from the start... this is not the case of the navy trying to use an off the shelf army system for a ship.


    I think they actually decided its not worth the trouble.

    Of course it is not.

    Several weapons designed for navy use have however successfully been moved to the land including the 100mm gun of the SU-100 tank destroyer...

    UKSK/Universal launcher or some other launchers.Kazan has given a well timed shock not to believe anything on here say.
    We know that UKSK in severodvinsk was replaced and changed to some (seriously different launcher in Kazan submarine launche tubes).

    What are you talking about?

    The Universal Launcher is the new standard cruise missile launcher for land attack, anti ship, and anti sub missiles... what else would they fit into a Kirov class ship?

    The Oscar class apparently had sleeves to fit into its existing granit tubes... AFAIK there are no other options than the UKSK launchers.


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:48 pm

    gaurav wrote:
    UKSK/Universal launcher or some other launchers.Kazan has given a well timed shock not to believe anything on here say.
    We know that UKSK in severodvinsk was replaced and changed to some (seriously different launcher in Kazan submarine launche tubes).

    This old chestnut again? UKSK is for surface vessels, while submarines like Pr 885/885M use an altogether different VLS obviously designed for underwater launch. Submarine conversions like Pr 949AM use another design which converts the existing P-800 launch tubes to carry Oniks/Kalibre in sub-diameter internally-fitted canisters.
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    hoom

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:41 am

    I think they actually decided its not worth the trouble.
    They should have known from the start that it wouldn't work out due to corrosion issues on a mount designed for land only, it was a complete waste of time & money.

    Back on topic: Charly015 has a take on what he thinks Nakhimov will be like when upgraded http://charly015.blogspot.co.nz/2017/01/sobre-la-modernizacion-del-nakimov.html

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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:32 am

    If a single 30mmx165mm shell can destroy an F-15, it sill do the same to a harpoon, kongsberg, brimstone, JSOW or whatever. And I dont see NATO putting armor on their AShMs soon. They're too busy drooling over stealth. There is absolutely no point in increasing CIWS calibre, only increasing its shell velocity, electronics, and ROF.

    chicken

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  chicken on Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:09 am

    hoom wrote:
    I think they actually decided its not worth the trouble.
    They should have known from the start that it wouldn't work out due to corrosion issues on a mount designed for land only, it was a complete waste of time & money.

    Back on topic: Charly015 has a take on what he thinks Nakhimov will be like when upgraded http://charly015.blogspot.co.nz/2017/01/sobre-la-modernizacion-del-nakimov.html


    If I recall, Redut was not on the list of equipments.
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    A1RMAN

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  A1RMAN on Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:52 am

    chicken wrote:
    If I recall, Redut was not on the list of equipments.

    Redut is not even ready. Let alone in production.
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    hoom

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:33 pm

    If I recall, Redut was not on the list of equipments.
    I guess that's the big mystery: Logically having removed the Kinzhal presumably something is going there instead, Redut would be the obvious candidate.
    Whether intentional or accidental the list http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1124199.html fails to name 5P-20K as Poliment radar but you're right there doesn't appear to be a Redut (3K96) entry.

    There is 3M-48 = S300FM without separately naming launcher & radar (could be just an electronic upgrade to the existing S300 hardware), so possibly Redut launchers would be included as part of that or as part of 5P-20K?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:33 am

    If a single 30mmx165mm shell can destroy an F-15, it sill do the same to a harpoon, kongsberg, brimstone, JSOW or whatever. And I dont see NATO putting armor on their AShMs soon. They're too busy drooling over stealth. There is absolutely no point in increasing CIWS calibre, only increasing its shell velocity, electronics, and ROF.

    But that is the problem... a single 30mm cannon shell could bring down an F-15 but it has to hit it in exactly the right place to do so. Just the same as a 50 calibre browning HMG round that hits someones fingertip wont kill them but a tiny .22LR round through the brain box will kill anyone.

    the point is that even with all sorts of wonderful fuses and increases in muzzle velocity and shell weight a 30mm cannon shell wont be much use beyond about 3km and even then it would require enormous burst rates to be effective against small targets.

    A single 57mm guided shell should be able to kill small point targets out to 8km or more with one or two shots... more importantly killing it quicker so follow up targets can be engaged much more rapidly.

    For instance laser beam riding 57mm shells could be guided independently of the gun so 10 or 20 EO systems on board the ship could each find a target and mark that target... the 57mm gun mount could fire 20 rounds in about 4 seconds (at 300rpm that is 5 shells a second) and then it can wait for the result... as targets are hit follow up shells could be fired or new targets engaged... and this is in addition to short range missiles like Pantsir or VERBA or Morfei or indeed Kinzhal (Naval TOR) at leakers.


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    Isos

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:44 pm

    For instance laser beam riding 57mm shells could be guided independently of the gun so 10 or 20 EO systems on board the ship could each find a target and mark that target... the 57mm gun mount could fire 20 rounds in about 4 seconds (at 300rpm that is 5 shells a second) and then it can wait for the result... as targets are hit follow up shells could be fired or new targets engaged... and this is in addition to short range missiles like Pantsir or VERBA or Morfei or indeed Kinzhal (Naval TOR) at leakers.

    Do you think it's possible to do so ? 57mm is bigger than 30mm but it's not that much big to fit a laser detector and the electronic in it, moreover there is the issue with the fire which make the round very hot.

    A nice thing and cheaper would be to preprogram them to explode near the target by anticepating the trajectory with radars like those we find on pantsir or kashtan. There is a video of the same system made by BAE I think (I alrreay put that video on another topic). You can shot at max distances with max dammage to the missile.

    If a single 30mmx165mm shell can destroy an F-15, it sill do the same to a harpoon, kongsberg, brimstone, JSOW or whatever. And I dont see NATO putting armor on their AShMs soon. They're too busy drooling over stealth. There is absolutely no point in increasing CIWS calibre, only increasing its shell velocity, electronics, and ROF.

    Having a CIWS that can shot down some missiles at 7-10km and another one thant can shot down the rest of the salvo is not a bad idea. They can operate in automatic mode so they don't need lot of operators.


    If I recall, Redut was not on the list of equipments.

    Maybe not the lunchers but they could have upgraded radars to S-400 lvl and missiles will go in the big lunchers. And they can use the bigger missiles, which is not possible with the redut.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:28 pm

    Relying in guided large calibre shells is putting all your eggs in one basket IMO.
    There is no alternative to putting enough lead in the sky.
    You don't need an exact spot to destroy an F-15 using a 30mm shell. Hit the wing? The entire wing will be ripped off and control surfaces destroyed. Hit the fuselage? 30mm Shrapnel will always utterly ignite the engines. A 30mm hit will either disintegrate or rip a harpoon in half. You cant ask for more.

    BTW if you want to look at high caliber low ROF CIWS, see the 40mm dardo. you cant make me believe this will down even a subsonic missile.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:19 am

    Admiral Nakhimov will be equipped with supercomputers and ZIRKON missiles.

    Modernization of cruiser will end in 2020.

    http://www.vpk-news.ru/news/34729

    chicken

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  chicken on Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:54 am

    Isos wrote:


    If I recall, Redut was not on the list of equipments.

    Maybe not the lunchers but they could have upgraded radars to S-400 lvl and missiles will go in the big lunchers. And they can use the bigger missiles, which is not possible with the redut.

    Redut is the VLS, the missiles that it carry can also be accommodated in S-300FM. Or so I think.



    I believe they just insert the bins into the ship



    hoom wrote:I guess that's the big mystery: Logically having removed the Kinzhal presumably something is going there instead, Redut would be the obvious candidate.

    Probably just an upgrade

    A naval version of the Tor-M2U is being developed by Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant Kupol for integration on to the Russian Navy vessels.

    http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tor-m2u-air-defence-missile-system-adms/
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    hoom

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:15 am

    A naval version of the Tor-M2U is being developed by Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant Kupol for integration on to the Russian Navy vessels.
    Yes but the naval Tor-M2U is pretty clearly setup for small scale installation, not suitable for the large scale on Nakhimov.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:35 am

    They have said that improved land based TOR models are still state of the art in terms of their ability to intercept small fast targets, so I think it would make sense to keep the naval TOR in operation... the setup on larger vessels likely will just include a much larger number of ready to fire missiles.


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    Benya

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Benya on Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:55 am

    Russian Navy Kirov-class cruiser Admiral Nakhimov Return to Operational Status Slips to 2022

    The return to operational status of the Russian Navy’s Project 11442M (NATO reporting name: Kirov-class) Admiral Nakhimov nuclear-powered missile cruiser will take place within three to four years, United Shipbuilding Corporation President Alexei Rakhmanov has told the Interfax News Agency.


    Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser (TARKR) currently under refit at Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk. Picture: Sevmash shipyard via militaryrussia.ru

    "I think we will return the Admiral Nakhimov cruiser to the Navy in 2020-2021. We are working to this end with due account taken of the changes in the amount of work to be done," Rakhmanov said.

    Once upgraded, the Admiral Nakhimov will feature characteristics that are far more advanced and she will beef up the Russian Navy considerably. The upgrade will include the replacement of her missile and gunnery weapons, in particular the introduction of long-range cruise missiles organic to the Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) system.

    The Admiral Nakhimov nuclear-powered missile cruiser is designed to destroy high-value surface and land targets and provide air defense for the formation it is part of. The ship was launched in 1986 and commissioned in 1988. She had been moored at Sevmash in Severodvinsk from 1999 to 2012 when a decision was made to rebuild her. The contract for repairing the cruiser was placed in 2013. The Admiral Nakhimov’s upgrade to Project 11442M standard will afford the warship the Kalibr missile system. The cruiser displaces 24,500 tons, measures 251 m long, has a full power of 140,000 hp, a speed of 31 knots and a crew of 728 and carries a Kamov Ka-27 (Helix) helicopter or versions thereof.


    File picture: Aerial starboard quarter view of the Russian Northern Fleet Kirov class nuclear-powered guided missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov (CGN-080) underway.

    Navy Recognition Comments
    The Sevmash Shipyard launched the modernization of the Admiral Nakhimov to Project 11442M standard on January 24, 2014. The modernization started with dismounting the large equipment and systems subject to replacement or repair. This slashed the structural weight, which, in turn, made it easier to bring the ship from the berth to the flooding dock.

    Sevmash and KBSM (Special Machinebuilding Design Bureau) made a deal for 10 modules of 3S14 vertical launch system (VLS) for installation as part of the cruiser’s upgrade. The deal’s value is estimated at 2.559 billion rubles ($39 million). Thus, 20 SM-225 launchers of the 3K-45 Granit (SS-N-19 Shipwreck) system will be replaced with 10 3S14 VLS modules to accommodate 3M-14 (SS-N-30) land-attack and 3M-54 (SS-N-27A Sizzler) antiship cruise missiles of the Kalibr missile system. The ammunition load will total 80 missiles.

    The Project 11442M (NATO reporting name: Kirov-class) Admiral Nakhimov nuclear-powered heavy guided missile cruiser will be equipped with Tsirkon hypersonic missiles during her upgrade, a source in shipbuilding industry previously told TASS. "The Admiral Nakhimov’s strike system will be replaced with Tsirkon hypersonic missiles as part of her repair and heavy upgrade," the source said.

    It was earlier reported that the first Russian Navy vessel to receive Pantsir-M missile and gun system will be heavy nuclear missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov. It will also be fitted with a new generation information management system.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/april-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5050-russian-navy-kirov-class-cruiser-admiral-nakhimov-return-to-operational-status-slips-to-2022.html

    Azi

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Azi on Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:26 pm

    One question...

    What is the status of Lazarev and Ushakov? Are they scrapped or stored somewhere?
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    franco

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  franco on Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:58 pm

    Azi wrote:One question...

    What is the status of Lazarev and Ushakov? Are they scrapped or stored somewhere?

    The Lazarev is in dock, not active and the Ushakov is decommissioned.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:42 am

    Benya wrote:Russian Navy Kirov-class cruiser Admiral Nakhimov Return to Operational Status Slips to 2022

    The return to operational status of the Russian Navy’s Project 11442M (NATO reporting name: Kirov-class) Admiral Nakhimov nuclear-powered missile cruiser will take place within three to four years, United Shipbuilding Corporation President Alexei Rakhmanov has told the Interfax News Agency.


    Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser (TARKR) currently under refit at Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk. Picture: Sevmash shipyard via militaryrussia.ru

    "I think we will return the Admiral Nakhimov cruiser to the Navy in 2020-2021. We are working to this end with due account taken of the changes in the amount of work to be done," Rakhmanov said.

    Once upgraded, the Admiral Nakhimov will feature characteristics that are far more advanced and she will beef up the Russian Navy considerably. The upgrade will include the replacement of her missile and gunnery weapons, in particular the introduction of long-range cruise missiles organic to the Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) system.

    The Admiral Nakhimov nuclear-powered missile cruiser is designed to destroy high-value surface and land targets and provide air defense for the formation it is part of. The ship was launched in 1986 and commissioned in 1988. She had been moored at Sevmash in Severodvinsk from 1999 to 2012 when a decision was made to rebuild her. The contract for repairing the cruiser was placed in 2013. The Admiral Nakhimov’s upgrade to Project 11442M standard will afford the warship the Kalibr missile system. The cruiser displaces 24,500 tons, measures 251 m long, has a full power of 140,000 hp, a speed of 31 knots and a crew of 728 and carries a Kamov Ka-27 (Helix) helicopter or versions thereof.


    File picture: Aerial starboard quarter view of the Russian Northern Fleet Kirov class nuclear-powered guided missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov (CGN-080) underway.

    Navy Recognition Comments
    The Sevmash Shipyard launched the modernization of the Admiral Nakhimov to Project 11442M standard on January 24, 2014. The modernization started with dismounting the large equipment and systems subject to replacement or repair. This slashed the structural weight, which, in turn, made it easier to bring the ship from the berth to the flooding dock.

    Sevmash and KBSM (Special Machinebuilding Design Bureau) made a deal for 10 modules of 3S14 vertical launch system (VLS) for installation as part of the cruiser’s upgrade. The deal’s value is estimated at 2.559 billion rubles ($39 million). Thus, 20 SM-225 launchers of the 3K-45 Granit (SS-N-19 Shipwreck) system will be replaced with 10 3S14 VLS modules to accommodate 3M-14 (SS-N-30) land-attack and 3M-54 (SS-N-27A Sizzler) antiship cruise missiles of the Kalibr missile system. The ammunition load will total 80 missiles.

    The Project 11442M (NATO reporting name: Kirov-class) Admiral Nakhimov nuclear-powered heavy guided missile cruiser will be equipped with Tsirkon hypersonic missiles during her upgrade, a source in shipbuilding industry previously told TASS. "The Admiral Nakhimov’s strike system will be replaced with Tsirkon hypersonic missiles as part of her repair and heavy upgrade," the source said.

    It was earlier reported that the first Russian Navy vessel to receive Pantsir-M missile and gun system will be heavy nuclear missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov. It will also be fitted with a new generation information management system.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/april-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/5050-russian-navy-kirov-class-cruiser-admiral-nakhimov-return-to-operational-status-slips-to-2022.html

    If you remember at start it was 2019. Very Happy
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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:13 am

    And everything goes to plan and everything in the west is built on time at cost...

    Fuck off Crow.


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:43 am

    GarryB wrote:And everything goes to plan and everything in the west is built on time at cost...

    Fuck off Crow.

    Crow??

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    Benya

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Benya on Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:55 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:And everything goes to plan and everything in the west is built on time at cost...

    Fuck off Crow.

    Crow??


    Well...

    As you can see, a "flame war" on completion dates between Garry and Militarov had almost started. Speaking about western ships, just take a look at the Zumwalt-class...

    You know how it ended up.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:20 pm

    Benya wrote:"I think we will return the Admiral Nakhimov cruiser to the Navy in 2020-2021. We are working to this end with due account taken of the changes in the amount of work to be done," Rakhmanov said.

    Hmmm...  this suggests that the scope of the modernisation has changed since the work started in 2014?  It's possible however that the delay is due to unplanned and/or additional repairs due to unexpected condition of vessel or equipment.  For instance, now that the reactor has been de-fuelled and can be fully inspected, its possible that the refurbishment will be more involved (purely conjecture, just an illustrative example of what can happen in large complex rebuilds).
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    Militarov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:And everything goes to plan and everything in the west is built on time at cost...

    Fuck off Crow.


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