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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    George1
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:05 pm

    what about admiral lazarev?

    a89
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  a89 on Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:59 pm

    Is it really worth upgrading a ~30 year old ship? in many forums people say that it would be better to acquire smaller and more flexible ships. I also wonder about the manpower requirements. 

    In any case, these Cold War dinosaurs are really nice to show the flag.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:43 pm

    I think people are overestimating how many smaller ships can be bought for that money - probably no more than two 22350 frigates.
    There is potential for the Nakhmiov modernization to go past tieline and inflate in price, but lets just assume it manages to exceed neither by more than a third- I still think another large cruiser is needed in the RuNavy.
    These ships have the capabilities a smaller ship simply does not, and currently the RuNavy has a gap between its new frigates and is existing cruisers and large destroyers. No new destroyers will appear for some time anyways. Plus Peter the Great needs repairs, so dry dock time deprives the Navy of one of its few fully-well rounded ships.

    Nakhimov just by virtue of its size will have far bigger potential for larger, higher mounted radars, as well as command equipment. Finally Runavy has expressed interest in an anti-space role for its ships, and you wont be mounting big enough missiles on 4000-6000 ton ships. Then of course we have the flag showing potential, endurance, and valuable experience for Sevmash in retrofitting a cruiser. 

    Take 4-5 22350s, and you have a bunch of frigates.
    IMO, take Nakhmiov, and 2-3 frigates, and you have a Surface Action Group.

    It only served for 10 years anyways.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:28 pm

    Great, its good that another Kirov class has been recomissioned. I hope it'll enter the pacific fleet which is in dire need of  active ships.

    However was it wise to recomission it without  the projected improvements. I personally would've preferred if it has been recomissioned a few years later after getting the UKSK launchers for the brahmos II.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:43 pm

    Of course the ship is being modernized.

    It is in absolutely no state to be recommissioned right now, even if they did not want to modernize.
    They haven't even decided on the modernization project, I guess that will happen after it goes into Sevmash "dry dock".

    You can safely assume it will have UKSK.
    Also, why would a Russian ship use an export missile?

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:52 am

    I assume it will have  whatever  hypersonic missile  based on the P-800.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Hachimoto on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:10 am

    I'll be happy the day russian shipbuilders could again build a new surface ship as big as the Kirovs.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  dionis on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:12 am

    A yawn-worthy pace to modernize a ship, even if it is a battlecruiser.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:57 am

    The insides of the ship are largely unknown till they get it into drydock and have a decent look at her insides.

    From what I can tell if this is a major upgrade that will entail removing the existing nuclear and boiler propulsion arrangement to be replaced with new modern compact reactors developed for their new carriers. All the current weapons... and that is a substantial amount... are replaced with new generation versions, all the electronics and sensors are also to be replaced... this is going to be all new and will become the model for the upgrade of the Kuznetsov and the Peter the Great and the resulting vessel will be a very powerful surface combatant.

    The Sigma naval system is in many ways an AEGIS type system except the Russian navy is integrating the system into all their platforms from Corvette to Carrier and Sub to satellite. The resulting vessel will be much more capable than any other single vessel in service. Talk of 80 launch tubes for the UKSK system suggest the potential for a formidable strike capacity... likely to include Redut and S-500.

    A yawn-worthy pace to modernize a ship, even if it is a battlecruiser.

    Most of the stuff they are doing is untested... including the new reactors, not to mention the new EM assisted 152mm main guns. When this program is completed then they can start expanding and going for speed.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  a89 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:24 am

    These ships have the capabilities a smaller ship simply does not, and currently the RuNavy has a gap between its new frigates and is existing cruisers and large destroyers. No new destroyers will appear for some time anyways. Plus Peter the Great needs repairs, so dry dock time deprives the Navy of one of its few fully-well rounded ships.


    Very interesting TR1. By he way, according to some news all 3 (Piotr Velikiy is already in service) will be modernized. Let's see if this takes place.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20100725/159939020.html

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:08 am

    If they want carriers... and it seems they do... as there are no moves to scrap the Kuznetsov, then they will need ships to operate as part of a carrier battle group.

    Large ships are very expensive to build but with modern automated systems they don't need enormous crews.

    I doubt the Russian MIC could build a vessel this size from scratch right now... they are currently building the smaller vessels they need and are not pumping frigates and destroyers out at a huge rate yet either. It is going to take time naturally, so while they have some hulls available they are being very smart to take advantage of them and give them a good overhaul to get them into service much more quickly.

    By upgrading the existing Kirovs they are accepting the problems with the advantages... problems include lots of unknowns and limiting themselves to a hull shape that was developed some time ago which limits stealth performance. The Kirovs were already very clean designs already however and the fact that they are only upgrading these vessels rather than building them from scratch means they can move them more easily because they already float and are based on a proven design.

    The result is that they will get cruisers well before they otherwise would have been able to get them and likely much cheaper too.

    Capital ships for supporting carriers are powerful vessels in terms of sensors and weapons and are useful on their own so it makes sense to strive to get them first.

    Once they have done one the other two should be easier and quicker, though it is hard to say till they are actually cracked open.

    The huge radar arrays and weapons and electronics will be largely modular and so lessons learned with the first conversion will be applicable in the upgrade of the other two Kirovs but also with the upgrade of the Kuznetsov and indeed the new carriers that they haven't even finalised the design of... using modular components means they can fit together only in certain ways.

    The Kuznetsov is supposed to be going in for a refit soon and will be coming out in 2017-2018 so both vessels should be  ready around the same time... hope they decide to come to the South Pacific... Smile


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:44 am

    Are there any shipyards being built on Russian soil that will be able to make battlecruiser sized ships?

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:50 am

    Yes, the shipyard being built by the South Koreans is able to build carrier sized vessels including oil and gas tankers, but it makes more sense right now to concentrate on the other ships they will need including small patrol vessels and support ships and just upgrade existing sea worthy designs to extend their lives while larger and larger new ships are mastered again.

    The skills weren't lost overnight and they wont come back overnight just by putting a lot of money into this. This needs to be planned and managed properly to ensure they get a decent balanced force... it wont be as big as the Soviet Navy was, but it should be more capable... the simple addition of the UKSK launchers means ships that used to be anti ship or anti sub can now be both and more... they can have long range attack capability too... which was only previously possible with a nuclear warhead. The new terminal guidance systems mean it can now have precision long range strike capability now too... which makes it much more flexible.

    The new hupersonic missiles... if they are compatible with UKSK launchers should mean they are even more capable across the fleet... in fact imagine a new type of weapon... a ballistically delivered hypersonic missile cluster... a SLBM with a ballistic range of say 3,000km with a warhead payload that consists of 3 hypersonic cruise missiles with a range of 5,000km. The Missile is launched from a submerged submarine and follows a ballistic path to 3,000km range where the payload enters the atmosphere and then turns horizontal at about 30km altitude and the payload splits open with 3 hypersonic missiles separating and accelerating to mach 6-7 with scramjet engines... after the ballistic flight they will already be travelling that fast or faster anyway so they could coast at high altitude till their speed starts to bleed down and then start up their scramjet engines and turn and head towards their targets that might be a further 5 thousand kms away... few ABM systems could stop such threats as they will be able to fly dogleg flight paths to the target and indeed with sub launch could come from completely unanticipated directions. Flying very fast and very high they could release a dozen small nuke warheads during their flights and wreak havoc on an enemy state... their goal not to be a precision first strike weapon but to be a destruction spreader that ABM systems wont be able to cope with that will ensure the enemy state does not have localised damage only in specific strategic areas... a real MAD weapon.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:This will be very interesting.

    I suspect certain choices are obvious like the UKSK launcher bins for Calibre/Oniks/Yakhont/Moskit/Klub series AShM/LACM/ASW missiles.

    Replacing Kashtan with Pantsir-S1 is logical, and Duet for the AK-630 gun turrets, while the SAM arrangement will also be interesting with the question of Redut probably replacing Rif and Rif-M, but will there be an upgraded TOR or just more Redut bins, and will they install Morfei. Another question regarding SAMs is will it carry naval S-500... or should I ask will naval S-500 be ready by 2018 or will it be added later? Will it be fitted to be able to carry a Ka-52 as well as Ka-32s and will other UAVs be added?

    Otherwise the electronics and sensors and indeed powerplant might be a good indication of the sort of thing they will be putting on the Kuznetsov too.

    I suspect a simpler power system might be worth looking at based on the new compact reactors they are developing for carriers, which should be smaller and more compact than the current boiler reactor arrangement.

    Finally the guns... will it retain 130mm or go for 152mm or will there be a surprise and the 152s are for the Frigates and the new cruisers might be 203mm?

    I suspect the 152s are probably long enough ranged to make them very useful with perhaps two twin turrets on the upgraded vessels and lots and lots of ammo.

    Very good news all round.

    Well we have confirmed Poliment- Redut



    During the modernization of the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser (TARKR) Project 1144 \"Orlan" "Admiral Nakhimov" will be installed multi-purpose missile system "Movement" and a new air defense system "polyment-Redoute", reported the online newspaper "The View" with reference to the representative of the Navy. wrote:As a result, the cruiser will be a multi-purpose and will be able to strike with cruise missiles not only on surface and underwater targets, but also by shore-based facilities, "- he said to" Interfax "
    LINK
     

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    what about the status of the three Kirov class battle cruiser in reserve?

    Post  stealthfanker on Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:23 pm

    As far as i know,Russia only possess one active vessel at this class,the famous Peter the Great,it's a monster considering its armament and size,you can never find another vessel in NATO similar to it.However,there are three more vessel which are moored and in idle at Russia port,it's very sad to see this look,what a powerful and beautiful vessel.I wonder when they would be refitted and put into active service again,or even if they would be refitted?The reason why I asked this is I always heard Russia officials made statements in the past few years related to the issues of refit of the three vessels...Greeting from China.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:36 pm

    stealthfanker wrote:As far as i know,Russia only possess one active vessel at this class,the famous Peter the Great,it's a monster considering its armament and size,you can never find another vessel in NATO similar to it.However,there are three more vessel which are moored and in idle at Russia port,it's very sad to see this look,what a powerful and beautiful vessel.I wonder when they would be refitted and put into active service again,or even if they would be refitted?The reason why I asked this is I always heard Russia officials made statements in the past few years related to the issues of refit of the three vessels...Greeting from China.

    Like you said, Peter the Great is in service.
    Nakhimov is in by far the best shape of the other three, and is being actively worked on- it will soon go into the Sevmash "dry-dock" and a modernization project will be designed.

    Now the question becomes a lot more difficult with the other two. IMO, very unlikely they will return. Ushakov was retired many years ago, and is peered nearby. Lazarev has been placed in reserve in the Pacific, but it has basically been rotting away since. They are both in far worse condition than Nakhimov.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  stealthfanker on Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:05 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    stealthfanker wrote:As far as i know,Russia only possess one active vessel at this class,the famous Peter the Great,it's a monster considering its armament and size,you can never find another vessel in NATO similar to it.However,there are three more vessel which are moored and in idle at Russia port,it's very sad to see this look,what a powerful and beautiful vessel.I wonder when they would be refitted and put into active service again,or even if they would be refitted?The reason why I asked this is I always heard Russia officials made statements in the past few years related to the issues of refit of the three vessels...Greeting from China.

    Like you said, Peter the Great is in service.
    Nakhimov is in by far the best shape of the other three, and is being actively worked on- it will soon go into the Sevmash "dry-dock" and a modernization project will be designed.

    Now the question becomes a lot more difficult with the other two. IMO, very unlikely they will return. Ushakov was retired many years ago, and is peered nearby. Lazarev has been placed in reserve in the Pacific, but it has basically been rotting away since. They are both in far worse condition than Nakhimov.

    Thanks for your info,I agree with you,the vessel left rusting in pacific is unlikely to be put in service again,because I don't remember qualified shipyard exist in that area to refit the vessel,I know little detail regarding the vessel you called Ushakov.The question is which fleet the Naknimov will belong to after its refit job is done,I believe it will be Pacific Fleet,and I even heard a Slava class cruiser,which belongs to Northern Fleet at moment,might be transfered to Pacific Fleet too.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:52 am

    It really comes down to the condition of the hull... the contents really don't matter much as any decent upgrade will be replacing most of the internals anyway.

    The Kirovs were very good ships and with modern modular upgrades could be even more impressive.


    A couple of twin barrel 152mm guns able to fire with accuracy to 70km range or more... Kashtan replaced by Pantsir-S1 able to reach 20km in range, 15km in altitude and down to 2m above the wave tops with missiles, plus of course the replacement of the SAMs... on paper the old vessels had 96 Rif missiles in rotary launchers... having fixed launch bins should allow... in that same volume about 3 Redut 32 tube launchers with 96 tubes for full size Rif-M missiles. Equip it with one launch bin of full size 400km range S-400 missiles and the other two launch bins can carry the smaller missiles... so that is 64 tubes with 4 missiles per tube... 256 missiles so a total of 288 missiles... pretty good.

    Add to that the 10 UKSK launch bins for a variety of land attack and anti ship and anti sub missiles in 80 tubes and you have a real battle cruiser...


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:49 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    GarryB wrote:This will be very interesting.

    I suspect certain choices are obvious like the UKSK launcher bins for Calibre/Oniks/Yakhont/Moskit/Klub series AShM/LACM/ASW missiles.

    Replacing Kashtan with Pantsir-S1 is logical, and Duet for the AK-630 gun turrets, while the SAM arrangement will also be interesting with the question of Redut probably replacing Rif and Rif-M, but will there be an upgraded TOR or just more Redut bins, and will they install Morfei. Another question regarding SAMs is will it carry naval S-500... or should I ask will naval S-500 be ready by 2018 or will it be added later? Will it be fitted to be able to carry a Ka-52 as well as Ka-32s and will other UAVs be added?

    Otherwise the electronics and sensors and indeed powerplant might be a good indication of the sort of thing they will be putting on the Kuznetsov too.

    I suspect a simpler power system might be worth looking at based on the new compact reactors they are developing for carriers, which should be smaller and more compact than the current boiler reactor arrangement.

    Finally the guns... will it retain 130mm or go for 152mm or will there be a surprise and the 152s are for the Frigates and the new cruisers might be 203mm?

    I suspect the 152s are probably long enough ranged to make them very useful with perhaps two twin turrets on the upgraded vessels and lots and lots of ammo.

    Very good news all round.


    Well we have confirmed Poliment- Redut



    During the modernization of the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser (TARKR) Project 1144 \"Orlan" "Admiral Nakhimov" will be installed multi-purpose missile system "Movement" and a new air defense system "polyment-Redoute", reported the online newspaper "The View" with reference to the representative of the Navy. wrote:As a result, the cruiser will be a multi-purpose and will be able to strike with cruise missiles not only on surface and underwater targets, but also by shore-based facilities, "- he said to" Interfax "
    LINK
     


    how many cells the UKSK launcher?

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  runaway on Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:01 am

    George1 wrote:

    how many cells the UKSK launcher?

    The consensus is about 80.

    Btw i doubt all 4 Kirovs will be recommisioned, the original Kirov now Ushakov is in bad shape and it will cost an astronomical amount of money to bring her up to modern and operational status.


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:19 am

    Last information I have seen says 10 x UKSK launchers, which would mean 80 tubes for land attack, anti ship and anti sub missiles.

    Btw i doubt all 4 Kirovs will be recommisioned, the original Kirov now Ushakov is in bad shape and it will cost an astronomical amount of money to bring her up to modern and operational status.

    I suspect they will recommission 2... one for the Pacific Fleet and one for the Northern Fleet... but given the fact that this upgrade will likely replace all weapons, all sensors, all propulsion, all wiring and plumbing etc etc... ie pretty much everything that all that will remain will be the hull anyway.



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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:Last information I have seen says 10 x UKSK launchers, which would mean 80 tubes for land attack, anti ship and anti sub missiles.

    Btw i doubt all 4 Kirovs will be recommisioned, the original Kirov now Ushakov is in bad shape and it will cost an astronomical amount of money to bring her up to modern and operational status.

    I suspect they will recommission 2... one for the Pacific Fleet and one for the Northern Fleet... but given the fact that this upgrade will likely replace all weapons, all sensors, all propulsion, all wiring and plumbing etc etc... ie pretty much everything that all that will remain will be the hull anyway.


    P-700 cells were 20. I thought UKSK launchers would be more or at least 20

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:42 pm

    runaway wrote:
    George1 wrote:

    how many cells the UKSK launcher?

    The consensus is about 80.

    Btw i doubt all 4 Kirovs will be recommisioned, the original Kirov now Ushakov is in bad shape and it will cost an astronomical amount of money to bring her up to modern and operational status.


    I am pretty convinced only Nakhimov will be brought back.

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:07 am

    It will probably depend on how well the upgrade turns out whether a second one gets upgraded

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:04 am

    Interesting - missile complex "Movement"

    " According to sources in the General Staff of the Navy, the cruiser, in particular, will be equipped with attack missile complex "Movement"

    "Peter the Great" and "" Admiral Nakhimov "will modernize

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