Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

Yes, the shipyard being built by the South Koreans is able to build carrier sized vessels including oil and gas tankers, but it makes more sense right now to concentrate on the other ships they will need including small patrol vessels and support ships and just upgrade existing sea worthy designs to extend their lives while larger and larger new ships are mastered again.

The skills weren't lost overnight and they wont come back overnight just by putting a lot of money into this. This needs to be planned and managed properly to ensure they get a decent balanced force... it wont be as big as the Soviet Navy was, but it should be more capable... the simple addition of the UKSK launchers means ships that used to be anti ship or anti sub can now be both and more... they can have long range attack capability too... which was only previously possible with a nuclear warhead. The new terminal guidance systems mean it can now have precision long range strike capability now too... which makes it much more flexible.

The new hupersonic missiles... if they are compatible with UKSK launchers should mean they are even more capable across the fleet... in fact imagine a new type of weapon... a ballistically delivered hypersonic missile cluster... a SLBM with a ballistic range of say 3,000km with a warhead payload that consists of 3 hypersonic cruise missiles with a range of 5,000km. The Missile is launched from a submerged submarine and follows a ballistic path to 3,000km range where the payload enters the atmosphere and then turns horizontal at about 30km altitude and the payload splits open with 3 hypersonic missiles separating and accelerating to mach 6-7 with scramjet engines... after the ballistic flight they will already be travelling that fast or faster anyway so they could coast at high altitude till their speed starts to bleed down and then start up their scramjet engines and turn and head towards their targets that might be a further 5 thousand kms away... few ABM systems could stop such threats as they will be able to fly dogleg flight paths to the target and indeed with sub launch could come from completely unanticipated directions. Flying very fast and very high they could release a dozen small nuke warheads during their flights and wreak havoc on an enemy state... their goal not to be a precision first strike weapon but to be a destruction spreader that ABM systems wont be able to cope with that will ensure the enemy state does not have localised damage only in specific strategic areas... a real MAD weapon.

Armament modernization will be extensive so I guess Kalibr/S-400/(perhaps S-300/Morfei)/Vityaz/Vulkan or Onix and Kalibr

By 2018 Zirconium and likely Brahmos-II.

GarryB wrote:This will be very interesting.

I suspect certain choices are obvious like the UKSK launcher bins for Calibre/Oniks/Yakhont/Moskit/Klub series AShM/LACM/ASW missiles.

Replacing Kashtan with Pantsir-S1 is logical, and Duet for the AK-630 gun turrets, while the SAM arrangement will also be interesting with the question of Redut probably replacing Rif and Rif-M, but will there be an upgraded TOR or just more Redut bins, and will they install Morfei. Another question regarding SAMs is will it carry naval S-500... or should I ask will naval S-500 be ready by 2018 or will it be added later? Will it be fitted to be able to carry a Ka-52 as well as Ka-32s and will other UAVs be added?

Otherwise the electronics and sensors and indeed powerplant might be a good indication of the sort of thing they will be putting on the Kuznetsov too.

I suspect a simpler power system might be worth looking at based on the new compact reactors they are developing for carriers, which should be smaller and more compact than the current boiler reactor arrangement.

Finally the guns... will it retain 130mm or go for 152mm or will there be a surprise and the 152s are for the Frigates and the new cruisers might be 203mm?

I suspect the 152s are probably long enough ranged to make them very useful with perhaps two twin turrets on the upgraded vessels and lots and lots of ammo.

Very good news all round.

Well we have confirmed Poliment- Redut

During the modernization of the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser (TARKR) Project 1144 \"Orlan" "Admiral Nakhimov" will be installed multi-purpose missile system "Movement" and a new air defense system "polyment-Redoute", reported the online newspaper "The View" with reference to the representative of the Navy. wrote:" As a result, the cruiser will be a multi-purpose and will be able to strike with cruise missiles not only on surface and underwater targets, but also by shore-based facilities, "- he said to" Interfax "

LINK
 

As far as i know,Russia only possess one active vessel at this class,the famous Peter the Great,it's a monster considering its armament and size,you can never find another vessel in NATO similar to it.However,there are three more vessel which are moored and in idle at Russia port,it's very sad to see this look,what a powerful and beautiful vessel.I wonder when they would be refitted and put into active service again,or even if they would be refitted?The reason why I asked this is I always heard Russia officials made statements in the past few years related to the issues of refit of the three vessels...Greeting from China.

stealthfanker wrote:As far as i know,Russia only possess one active vessel at this class,the famous Peter the Great,it's a monster considering its armament and size,you can never find another vessel in NATO similar to it.However,there are three more vessel which are moored and in idle at Russia port,it's very sad to see this look,what a powerful and beautiful vessel.I wonder when they would be refitted and put into active service again,or even if they would be refitted?The reason why I asked this is I always heard Russia officials made statements in the past few years related to the issues of refit of the three vessels...Greeting from China.

Like you said, Peter the Great is in service.
Nakhimov is in by far the best shape of the other three, and is being actively worked on- it will soon go into the Sevmash "dry-dock" and a modernization project will be designed.

Now the question becomes a lot more difficult with the other two. IMO, very unlikely they will return. Ushakov was retired many years ago, and is peered nearby. Lazarev has been placed in reserve in the Pacific, but it has basically been rotting away since. They are both in far worse condition than Nakhimov.

TR1 wrote:

stealthfanker wrote:As far as i know,Russia only possess one active vessel at this class,the famous Peter the Great,it's a monster considering its armament and size,you can never find another vessel in NATO similar to it.However,there are three more vessel which are moored and in idle at Russia port,it's very sad to see this look,what a powerful and beautiful vessel.I wonder when they would be refitted and put into active service again,or even if they would be refitted?The reason why I asked this is I always heard Russia officials made statements in the past few years related to the issues of refit of the three vessels...Greeting from China.

Like you said, Peter the Great is in service.
Nakhimov is in by far the best shape of the other three, and is being actively worked on- it will soon go into the Sevmash "dry-dock" and a modernization project will be designed.

Now the question becomes a lot more difficult with the other two. IMO, very unlikely they will return. Ushakov was retired many years ago, and is peered nearby. Lazarev has been placed in reserve in the Pacific, but it has basically been rotting away since. They are both in far worse condition than Nakhimov.

Thanks for your info,I agree with you,the vessel left rusting in pacific is unlikely to be put in service again,because I don't remember qualified shipyard exist in that area to refit the vessel,I know little detail regarding the vessel you called Ushakov.The question is which fleet the Naknimov will belong to after its refit job is done,I believe it will be Pacific Fleet,and I even heard a Slava class cruiser,which belongs to Northern Fleet at moment,might be transfered to Pacific Fleet too.

It really comes down to the condition of the hull... the contents really don't matter much as any decent upgrade will be replacing most of the internals anyway.

The Kirovs were very good ships and with modern modular upgrades could be even more impressive.


A couple of twin barrel 152mm guns able to fire with accuracy to 70km range or more... Kashtan replaced by Pantsir-S1 able to reach 20km in range, 15km in altitude and down to 2m above the wave tops with missiles, plus of course the replacement of the SAMs... on paper the old vessels had 96 Rif missiles in rotary launchers... having fixed launch bins should allow... in that same volume about 3 Redut 32 tube launchers with 96 tubes for full size Rif-M missiles. Equip it with one launch bin of full size 400km range S-400 missiles and the other two launch bins can carry the smaller missiles... so that is 64 tubes with 4 missiles per tube... 256 missiles so a total of 288 missiles... pretty good.

Add to that the 10 UKSK launch bins for a variety of land attack and anti ship and anti sub missiles in 80 tubes and you have a real battle cruiser...

Hi Garrry
I would like to ask one thing can yu detail me the upgrade (only if yu have , it is not mandatory I mean) of Kirov class cruisers.
The reason why I am saying this is...
The thing is that we need to have this discussion at the same time next year. Perhaps in 1-2 years things will be much clear.



I would also like to add that Russian Navy is not going to replace the launchers on  the  kirov class cruiser.

I do not have the upgrade list for slava class cruiser and also for Kirov class cruisers. There is no upgrade list available on the internet for that matter.
The discussion is Nakhimov, Ushakov Kirov class cruisers.
Varyag,Moskava,Ustinov slava class cruiser.
I suppose for both these upgrades we do not have enough information to suggest UKSK launchers will be installed.


Coming back to the missiles teh Russian navy believes that bazalt , Granit  still match their performance requirements where as the Kalibre doesn't.

This is a fact , I mean without proof . Hence we cannot conclude on the deployment of UKSK launchers across the board of Russian Navy.

For Russian corvettes and small ships the domain changes and the deployment of UKSK launchers is of timely necessity.

The UKSK is a universal launcher for land attack and anti ship and anti submarine cruise missiles.

Kalibr is a cruise missile for land attack and offers a capability no variant of Granit or Vulkan can match... the ability to target and hit land targets.

If there is a need to engage enemy surface vessels the Onyx is believed to fly at about mach 2.5-2.8 and have a flight range of between 500km and 700km... it is the missile the Yakhont is based upon.. but without the export restrictions.

Granit is no longer in production and is no longer an option.

The plan for the upgrade of the Kirovs is to add 10 UKSK launchers to allow those vessels to carry up to 80 heavy missiles... whether they are Kalibr, Klub, Onyx, Brahmos, or anti sub AS-15/16 rocket delivered torpedoes.

Other modifications can obviously be speculated... the naval Koalition 152mm gun mount is an obvious choice for artillery and Kashtan-M would be ideally replaced by Pantsir-S1 turret mounts.
Rif and Rif-M would obviously be replaced with Vityaz and naval S-400 and of course likely S-500 too.

Much of that upgrade information is speculation on my part but the 80 tubes for UKSK has been mentioned by Russian officials.

One of the criticisms of the Soviet Navy was the range of different weapons and sensors and systems and propulsion... one of the things they are aiming for is standardisation so all vessels will receive UKSK launch bins... the size of the vessel will determine the number of systems, but all will be standard.

GarryB wrote:The UKSK is a universal launcher for land attack and anti ship and anti submarine cruise missiles.

Kalibr is a cruise missile for land attack and offers a capability no variant of Granit or Vulkan can match... the ability to target and hit land targets.

If there is a need to engage enemy surface vessels the Onyx is believed to fly at about mach 2.5-2.8 and have a flight range of between 500km and 700km... it is the missile the Yakhont is based upon.. but without the export restrictions.

Granit is no longer in production and is no longer an option.

The plan for the upgrade of the Kirovs is to add 10 UKSK launchers to allow those vessels to carry up to 80 heavy missiles... whether they are Kalibr, Klub, Onyx, Brahmos, or anti sub AS-15/16 rocket delivered torpedoes.

Other modifications can obviously be speculated... the naval Koalition 152mm gun mount is an obvious choice for artillery and Kashtan-M would be ideally replaced by Pantsir-S1 turret mounts.
Rif and Rif-M would obviously be replaced with Vityaz and naval S-400 and of course likely S-500 too.

Much of that upgrade information is speculation on my part but the 80 tubes for UKSK has been mentioned by Russian officials.

One of the criticisms of the Soviet Navy was the range of different weapons and sensors and systems and propulsion... one of the things they are aiming for is standardisation so all vessels will receive UKSK launch bins... the size of the vessel will determine the number of systems, but all will be standard.

how many Kirovs will be upgraded? 2 pr 3?

From what I have read only 2.

If we saved the Akulas too; there wouldn't even any need for the Kuznetsov carrier right now; it could be undergoing modernisation at port where it belongs.

How would subs compensate the role of a carrier?

Only 2?

Guys lets finish (or even start) Nakhimov before even talking about a 2nd ship.

Keep in mind that FP means the real shark... not the NATO shark... NATO name for Akula is Typhoon.

Personally I can see where he is coming from but to me the long term plans seem to focus on the Pacific and Northern fleet, which means two main bases, which needs at least two main capital ships.

They could certainly make them, but they already have two in the form of two Kirov class vessels plus an upgrade of the Slavas would mean a formidable force with modern systems... I would upgrade both the Kirovs and Slavas with nuclear propulsion and UKSK launchers...Slava having external angled launchers with 8 tubes replacing each existing two side by side tubes, while the Kirovs can have fully recessed vertical tubes... heck they could rotate them on the Slavas so they can have two UKSK launchers in each twin tube position so they have 16 x 8 tubes so 128 missiles ready to launch... quite potent...

With every vessel equipped with Sigma data/communications/battle management hardware then every vessel can contribute to the air, space, sea surface and sea subsurface picture on every Navy vessel.

The UKSK launcher allows each vessel to engage land, sea surface and sea subsurface targets, while Redut will allow air targets and with S-500 space targets to be engaged....

Personally I would like to see the Akulas fitted out as motherships for a range of manned and unmanned mini and micro subs... used for mapping and tapping...

Admiral Nakimov modernization will be done by 2018-2019

"Admiral Nakhimov" will return to the Russian Navy in 2018-2019 gg.

Modernization nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" will introduce a modern Navy missile ship already in the years 2018-2019,
 at a price slightly higher than the planned cost of the new destroyer.

Viktor wrote:Admiral Nakimov modernization will be done by 2018-2019

"Admiral Nakhimov" will return to the Russian Navy in 2018-2019 gg.

Modernization nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" will introduce a modern Navy missile ship already in the years 2018-2019,
 at a price slightly higher than the planned cost of the new destroyer.

what about admiral lazarev?

George1 wrote:

Viktor wrote:Admiral Nakimov modernization will be done by 2018-2019

"Admiral Nakhimov" will return to the Russian Navy in 2018-2019 gg.

Modernization nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" will introduce a modern Navy missile ship already in the years 2018-2019,
 at a price slightly higher than the planned cost of the new destroyer.

what about admiral lazarev?

There was a report a few years back that Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Ushakov will be modernized too by 2020 but I dont know why are they not mentioned anymore.

Maybe it became clear to even the shitty journalists/"sources" that even if the other ships are actually brought back (big if!) there is no way it will happen until after 2020.

Although I am sure I will read somewhere about plan to modernize whole class before long.

Cost less than that of a destroyer? They havn't even figured out the scope of the project, there is no way final costs can be accurately guestimated yet.

The only thing I am trusting are Sevmash's own words here.

I suspect it will largely depend on how this upgrade goes... if it goes well and everything does as it says on the label then they might do as many upgrades as they can.

Most of the wiring will need replacing anyway... the real question is what are they going to do with the propulsion system.

I am hoping they will go all nuke with new more powerful nuclear reactors presumably developed for new large ships like carriers.

This will simplify the design and make it a more capable vessel, and likely leave more free space for other things.

I rather suspect a lot of the large sensors (ie radar arrays) and battle management systems as well as propulsion will be very similar to the new systems that would be being worked on for the new carriers and the upgrade of the Kuz.

In such a situation this will be an important test to give an indication of how smooth other upgrades might work out and also give some operational data for the new carrier designs.

Right now an updated cruiser with modern reliable propulsion is more valuable than a carrier upgraded, so it makes sense to upgrade at least one cruiser first so things can be tested and tried... they still have a carrier and an operational cruiser if they need one.

Once this upgrade is completed and tested then there will be more of an idea of cost and performance to make some serious decisions about further upgrades of Kirov/s and Slavas and the Kuz.

Viktor wrote:

GarryB wrote:This will be very interesting.

I suspect certain choices are obvious like the UKSK launcher bins for Calibre/Oniks/Yakhont/Moskit/Klub series AShM/LACM/ASW missiles.

Replacing Kashtan with Pantsir-S1 is logical, and Duet for the AK-630 gun turrets, while the SAM arrangement will also be interesting with the question of Redut probably replacing Rif and Rif-M, but will there be an upgraded TOR or just more Redut bins, and will they install Morfei. Another question regarding SAMs is will it carry naval S-500... or should I ask will naval S-500 be ready by 2018 or will it be added later? Will it be fitted to be able to carry a Ka-52 as well as Ka-32s and will other UAVs be added?

Otherwise the electronics and sensors and indeed powerplant might be a good indication of the sort of thing they will be putting on the Kuznetsov too.

I suspect a simpler power system might be worth looking at based on the new compact reactors they are developing for carriers, which should be smaller and more compact than the current boiler reactor arrangement.

Finally the guns... will it retain 130mm or go for 152mm or will there be a surprise and the 152s are for the Frigates and the new cruisers might be 203mm?

I suspect the 152s are probably long enough ranged to make them very useful with perhaps two twin turrets on the upgraded vessels and lots and lots of ammo.

Very good news all round.

Well we have confirmed Poliment- Redut

During the modernization of the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser (TARKR) Project 1144 \"Orlan" "Admiral Nakhimov" will be installed multi-purpose missile system "Movement" and a new air defense system "polyment-Redoute", reported the online newspaper "The View" with reference to the representative of the Navy. wrote:" As a result, the cruiser will be a multi-purpose and will be able to strike with cruise missiles not only on surface and underwater targets, but also by shore-based facilities, "- he said to" Interfax "

LINK
 

how many cells the UKSK launcher?

George1 wrote:

how many cells the UKSK launcher?

The consensus is about 80.

Btw i doubt all 4 Kirovs will be recommisioned, the original Kirov now Ushakov is in bad shape and it will cost an astronomical amount of money to bring her up to modern and operational status.

Last information I have seen says 10 x UKSK launchers, which would mean 80 tubes for land attack, anti ship and anti sub missiles.

Btw i doubt all 4 Kirovs will be recommisioned, the original Kirov now Ushakov is in bad shape and it will cost an astronomical amount of money to bring her up to modern and operational status.

I suspect they will recommission 2... one for the Pacific Fleet and one for the Northern Fleet... but given the fact that this upgrade will likely replace all weapons, all sensors, all propulsion, all wiring and plumbing etc etc... ie pretty much everything that all that will remain will be the hull anyway.

GarryB wrote:Last information I have seen says 10 x UKSK launchers, which would mean 80 tubes for land attack, anti ship and anti sub missiles.

Btw i doubt all 4 Kirovs will be recommisioned, the original Kirov now Ushakov is in bad shape and it will cost an astronomical amount of money to bring her up to modern and operational status.

I suspect they will recommission 2... one for the Pacific Fleet and one for the Northern Fleet... but given the fact that this upgrade will likely replace all weapons, all sensors, all propulsion, all wiring and plumbing etc etc... ie pretty much everything that all that will remain will be the hull anyway.

P-700 cells were 20. I thought UKSK launchers would be more or at least 20