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    Emerging Technologies ideas

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    nomadski

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  nomadski on Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:58 am

    https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2017/12/04/1591768/iranian-turkish-french-scientists-winners-of-2nd-edition-of-mustafa-prize


    I was thinking about artificial intelligence machines . In order for machines to become truly intelligent , then they have to do self learning . Like a human . So programmers , must use analog of human learning and apply to machine . For humans apart from sensory organs , there is the programme of avoiding pain and obtaining pleasure . This is at the root of human reproduction and human need to survive and obtain food and human need to avoid injury . Also humans learn by trial and error . Like a child . So if computer robot manufacturer can use nano technology in the body of robot to simulate pain and also an algorithm for learning by trial and error to save energy like human . Then machine becomes self learning .
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    GarryB

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:38 am

    The crippling thing however with AI is that you can't just get it to generate the rules it has worked out for itself to use.

    A good example was in the 1980s there was an AI programme designed that could automatically detect the presence or absence of a tank or armoured vehicle in an image.

    The goal was the ability to create software that could automatically detect targets and draw the crew of a tanks attention to the threat.

    They basically took thousands of photos with tanks... some in full view some partial view and some hidden with camouflage and they put the AI programme through tests to "learn" what was wanted.

    The software worked brilliantly and had a 96% success rate in the lab, so they rolled it out and hailed it as the next best thing... this software could monitor 24/7 and find targets quickly for the crew... who would not want that?

    Anyway in the field it was rubbish, and didn't spot a single tank or armoured vehicle.

    The point is that to train the software you give it examples to look at and it tells you which is which and then you feed in the correct results so it tries to work out how to find what it is supposed to find by itself.. there are no rules written like look for sharp hard angles or particular patterns (like wheels or guns or tracks), so you can't just ask the software why it thinks a photo of an open field has a tank in the middle when it clearly does not.

    After years of analysis it turns out the sample photos were the problem. It seems the photos with tanks in them were all taken on sunny days and the photos without tanks on gloomy cloudy days and what it actually learned from the learning process was how to tell the difference between a cloudy day and a sunny day...

    Also would point out the aversion to pain in humans is to prevent damage.. . look at leprosy to work out why that is important.

    For many machines the fact that doing something might cause it damage is not a good reason for it to stop doing what it is doing.

    Imagine a rescue robot that walks into a burning building to save humans... if it wont enter the building because the exterior paint might be damaged then it is not much good for purpose.

    Once it has found a person and is carrying them out it would pay for it to avoid going the shortest route out through the centre of the fire to prevent damage to the person they are rescuing.

    There is no need for a machine to worry about reproduction or its own survival... when there are almost 8 billion people on this planet right now there is little reason to create artificial humans.. except for jobs no sane human would do like watch Fox News or CNN or the BBC.
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    jhelb

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  jhelb on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:The crippling thing however with AI is that you can't just get it to generate the rules it has worked out for itself to use

    Garry, if someone ( like myself ) intends to start a career in AI (especially in the Defence sector) what are the things he needs to learn that will enable him to land a job with major companies like Rostec etc ? Thanks.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:07 am

    My advice is before taking on any tertiary education talk to the ministry of defence people and find out what sort of skills and quals are needed first.
    They might even be able to assist.

    No point in doing a university degree and finding out the military prefers you do their specific course of training instead.... bit of a waste...
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    nomadski

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  nomadski on Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:18 am

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1076567008702696


    @jhelb

    I once tried to enrol in UK university to study applied maths at higher level . But my application was verbally rejected , because the course was tailored for military applications . So it is as important what you study as well as where !

    I thought about recent announcement by Russia MOD , that their nuclear powered cruise missile was immune to ALL air defence . How is this possible ? If I am right , this propulsion unit must be low weight , so a heavy heat exchanger can not be used . The core must be directly cooled by incoming air . Also since no pilots in this craft , then no need for heavy shielding . Therefore massive radiation in vicinity of craft .

    The effect of radiation on CCD'S is well known . As well as other electronics . No shielding can be arranged around the SAM , as it needs exposed areas for reception and communication . I was wondering if a long endurance drone or even ground stations can use this principle to direct radiation at space and disable all missile electronics . Types of radiation emitted can be controlled to stop local radiation , and say just put out X ray or Gamma ray in directional beam ? No immediate pollution . Can we do this ? Should be allowed within NPT .
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    GarryB

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:10 am

    With the nuclear engine it might be as simple as using new heat resistant materials that can put up with enormous temperatures that gets cooled below melting temperatures by the airflow through the engine... most low flying missiles are very difficult to stop, and after WWIII has started and ICBMs and SLBMs and other more exotic weapons have laid waste to much of the planet the chances of shooting down cruise missiles becomes dramatically more complicated... the other aspect would be that you really don't know what the targets will even be, and you really don't have any idea when the attack will take place... these missiles might fly down to the south Pacific ocean and fly in 1000km wide orbital circles for 4 or 5 months and then head north to attack their targets. What state will enemy defences be in at that stage? Civil society will have broken down and people will be hungry... the first priority will be food and helping the sick and injured... and trying to work out how to start rebuilding...
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    nomadski

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  nomadski on Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:01 pm

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence


    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ykBU6ym8Ao8

    I have had this idea of seeding the atmosphere with compounds that stick to surface of planes or missiles . Like putting a curtain in the sky . The object flies through it . And particles stick to surface . Then it shines or emits light . The dispersion can be done by planes . I think technology is viable . There are three methods of creating light . Fluorescence and phosphorescence that could work on air breathing engine . The heat imparting energy to particles . Then particles are ejected and shine . Third is bioluminescence that works by being agitated . I found this video of new products . The answer to my prayers .

    The liquid bioluminescence can be applied together with glue to small particles of expanded polystyrene foam together with iron particulate for radar reflectivity . Then once dispersed over target , they float down gently . And show anything that flies through cloud .

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    GarryB

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:32 am

    But why?


    In the infra red spectrum objects already glow...
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    nomadski

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  nomadski on Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02 pm

    @GarryB

    Because it is fun ...........just kidding . Why have most animal visual senses evolved in the visible spectrum ? And not other waveband ? Because visible range carries greatest detail and range and is immune from disturbances . Although some creatures evolved senses in IR range . These are for short range and cool conditions . Like some snakes . And guess what , we humans have perfectly good eyes . No need for factories that make sophisticated electronics . And are so economically and socially truncated , that slightest disturbance , like economic downturn or air bombing , will disrupt their supply . That is why such sophisticated systems like F 35 , are really useless . Take out a single factory . And they can not fly .

    The trick is , to have few parts . But many factories producing the same few parts . This is a hardened system . Against economic blockade and air bombing . Producing atmospheric compounds is relatively cheap with existing tech .

    And remember.....not everything that comes down to hit us , has a hot tail or is warm ( can be cooled , after friction with air ) so IR and radar will not pick up . ....But this will allow us to use our best sensors , our eye , and AK 47 to bring down million dollar glide gizmo.....
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    GarryB

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:16 am

    Why have most animal visual senses evolved in the visible spectrum ? And not other waveband ?.

    Actually you would be amazed about the performance of eyes in the animal kingdom... and much if it has to do with their sensitivity in the UV and IR range.

    Their sense of smell is even more amazing...

    Because visible range carries greatest detail and range and is immune from disturbances

    Really... so smoke, fog, mist, rain, cloud or even darkness don't effect visible light?

    Although some creatures evolved senses in IR range . These are for short range and cool conditions . Like some snakes .

    Yes, of course... you only find snakes in cold places... those siberian snakes are the worst...

    Animal eyes are not for reading the newspaper or watching HD tv... a fly has a tiny brain and its eyes are very very simple... no... hollywood tells us that the faceted eyes of a fly give high detailed images of the world repeated thousands of times... one in each eye segment.

    In reality the view each segment has is pathetic and basic and could be best described as a movement detector... with all those movement detectors the fly gets a really poor view of the world but it is excellent for spotting someone taking a swing at them. The human eye in comparison takes in an enormous amount of information... but it is not continuous... in fact I could place 25 still frames in front of you per second and you would swear it was a moving image... that tells me it take 1/25th of a second to process an image... for a fly it can probably detect 1,000 frames per second so when you start to swing it notices in 1/1000th of a second instead of 1/25th like you would. A fly would probably better see a bullet than we would but when we use technology like high speed cameras we see that bullet in detail a fly can never see it... even if the fly was sitting on a bullet on the ground.

    Predators have better eyesight than other animals and have both eyes facing forward so it gets a binocular view of the prey.

    Other animals have eyes on the sides of their heads to give the best 360 degree view of the world.

    For a predator detecting and identifying prey as well as judging distance is what is key.

    For prey early warning of movement or threat and field of view so nothing can sneak up on you... living in a group can also help prey animals survive longer too.

    Some animals hunt during day and some at night.

    And guess what , we humans have perfectly good eyes . No need for factories that make sophisticated electronics . And are so economically and socially truncated , that slightest disturbance , like economic downturn or air bombing , will disrupt their supply . That is why such sophisticated systems like F 35 , are really useless . Take out a single factory . And they can not fly .

    We are predators, but what makes us special is that we use tools. That means spears and other weapons to hunt. Eyeglasses to see better. Telescopic sights on rifles.

    There are plenty of factories that could take up production for any that you destroy, and even if you destroyed all the factories the plane would keep flying for quite some time before it ran out of parts.

    The trick is , to have few parts . But many factories producing the same few parts . This is a hardened system . Against economic blockade and air bombing . Producing atmospheric compounds is relatively cheap with existing tech .

    No. The trick is to have no foreign parts in important things, and make sure you have plenty of the most important parts in stock.

    And remember.....not everything that comes down to hit us , has a hot tail or is warm ( can be cooled , after friction with air ) so IR and radar will not pick up . ....But this will allow us to use our best sensors , our eye , and AK 47 to bring down million dollar glide gizmo.....

    Perhaps you don't understand IR properly... everything above absolute zero gives off IR radiation... an ice cube gives off IR radiation... one in the air gives off radiation while the air around it does not... so even a rock falling from the sky would appear on IR scopes... and autotracker can find and lock onto such a target, so Pantsir and TOR can both lock on to a falling weapon... supersonic or not... hot or bloody freezing.

    A 250kg FAB-250 in the bomb bay of a Tu-22M3M flying at 10,000m is probably minus 60 degrees Celcius at release and as it falls it wont heat up very much at all... it would be visible all the way down to an IR sensor.

    BTW there are three main IR channels that move easily though the atmosphere... long, medium, and short IR. Medium is the most commonly used, but each has different properties.

    The long wave IR sensor in an ELINT pod for the F-16 could actually detect aircraft before the aircrafts original radar could... and short wave IR can even see through glass... there was a video about the armata that showed the two IR cameras the Armata uses and in one of the tests you can't see through glass in one camera and the other sees right through...
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    nomadski

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  nomadski on Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:32 am

    Wow ! There are poisonous snake in Siberia? I thought that snakes live in mostly hot climate , being cold blooded . But then again there are water snakes that are very poisonous . I am glad to see your interest in bio-inspired engineering . Since these biological systems have proven their use over millions of years . It is a shame , I only use my 3 inch mobile to post . And it is difficult to copy and paste to your every point . Although I would like to .

    I agree that sensors in IR range do exist in nature and therefore have set a precedent for us to follow . As have sensors in visible range . I think in nature , IR sensors are used by specialist hunters in predictable environment . With unchanging variables .

    Now about having many parts to a system . And building up stocks . I agree . This could be a way of keeping a system going , while some factories are being destroyed . This is true , if we have reinforced bunkers in plenty . And the parts are relatively small . But what if they are big ? Like WW2 , the soviets had to move entire factories east . To save from air attack . Iranian also moved factories underground . They had time to do this . But they are already running out of space for large missiles . I estimate total length of underground tunnels in Iran to be about 500 Km ! So imagine about two hundred locations , underground . The other way , as I suggested was to have fewer parts . But more factories making them . Without underground bunkers . But you need air defences for this .

    About Russian AD system . I have nothing but praise . They have proven themselves Iin Syria . And I hope Turkey purchases them soon . However we should not be relaxed and complacent about this defence . I am sure the first radar man was very surprised when his radar was jammed for the very first time . Similarly IR has limitations . Advantages and disadvantages . IR decoys are one . But more importantly coatings may be applied to munitions , and they can be kept at temperatures to allow less radiation and also emit wavelengths that match surrounding IR radiation from water vapour or carbon dioxide in atmosphere . Or even match or overlap with microwave background radiation . In a kind of countershading . They have not done this yet ?

    Lastly , I am talking about emerging technology . This IR detection has already emerged ! On a positive note , any atmospheric bioluminescence compounds , do not emit any radiation in IR or Ultraviolet range . So they can be deployed in same area as IR sensors .
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:Yes, of course... you only find snakes in cold places... those siberian snakes are the worst...

    The joke's on you this time GarryB

    You do have snakes in Siberia (apart from Adders and such though they can only be found in the south Siberia though) including the Siberian Pit Viper; so-called because of the cavities between its eyes and nostrils that house organs allowing it to detect in the infrared spectrum.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 01, 2018 1:20 am

    Wow ! There are poisonous snake in Siberia? I thought that snakes live in mostly hot climate , being cold blooded . But then again there are water snakes that are very poisonous . I am glad to see your interest in bio-inspired engineering . Since these biological systems have proven their use over millions of years . It is a shame , I only use my 3 inch mobile to post . And it is difficult to copy and paste to your every point . Although I would like to .

    I agree that sensors in IR range do exist in nature and therefore have set a precedent for us to follow . As have sensors in visible range . I think in nature , IR sensors are used by specialist hunters in predictable environment . With unchanging variables .

    You are confusing sensors with sensors... the IR sight of a snake is nothing like the detailed image you get from a thermal imager... it is more like the hotspots seen by an IRST...

    Most IR sensors are calibrated for temperature... when you see thermal sights used by police helicopters at night and you see the bright spot of the person who is the target and the ground all appears dark... that means the sensor is set up to detect body heat... 25-35 degrees C... so that appears bright, and the rest of the ground looks dark... and at night it is probably between 10 and 20 degrees C.

    Thermal cameras like that often have a polarity switch that you can flip so that the general ground temperature looks white and human body temperature items look black... that makes the whole view of the ground during the night really bright and easy to see... and is often called navigation mode, while highlighting body temperature objects like humans or animal game is called hunter mode.

    For a snake there is only hunter mode and it is tuned to the body temperatures of the things it hunts... it wont be able to say that is a human and that is a deer and that is a sheep or a goat.... all it knows is that is warm so I can eat it... I would expect they spend a lot of time attacking car engines and camp stoves.

    But more importantly coatings may be applied to munitions , and they can be kept at temperatures to allow less radiation and also emit wavelengths that match surrounding IR radiation from water vapour or carbon dioxide in atmosphere .

    There are three wavelengths of useful IR sensors... long wave does not detect and is not effected by moisture in the air, and short wave also sees through moisture too... so cloud would not help against them. There is no one perfect system.... combinations of long, medium, and short wave IR sensors, plus MMW radar and centimetre wave radar and well as decimetre wave radar and other radar types and indeed digital TV and low light TV all offer a view and an advantage in different jamming environments. Don't pick one or the other... integrate them all...

    I am talking about emerging technology . This IR detection has already emerged !

    The emerging technology is combining sensors together to reduce problems and improve performance...

    QWIP based sensors use a chip array like on a CCD video camera chip, that is sensitive to visible as well as beyond red and above violet spectrum (ie IR and UV). Combined with low light visible views it in effect combines an old image intensification scope that uses boosted light levels, and also a thermal imaging view of the world. Over time production will become so cheap you could stamp out a QWIP chip for a few dollars each.

    In addition Russian optics companies have perfected processing of images... particularly colours and have found that synthetic colours for paints or dyes effect the reflected colours and can be detected and highlighted with a bit of computer processing in real time. That means a soldier wearing camouflage or a vehicle with an electronic camouflage system will glow in the view of this system...

    It could be used in any optic source including a normal day hunting scope, but obviously would be useful in one of those QWIP scopes too.

    The joke's on you this time GarryB

    You do have snakes in Siberia (apart from Adders and such though they can only be found in the south Siberia though) including the Siberian Pit Viper; so-called because of the cavities between its eyes and nostrils that house organs allowing it to detect in the infrared spectrum.

    I think my criticism still stands... the vast majority of snakes live in warmer areas... cold blooded animals need external heat sources to become active... most of the time that means lying out in the sun to heat up...

    But I do think considering your member name that is it appropriate that you have a say in this conversation... Smile
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    nomadski

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    Re: Emerging Technologies ideas

    Post  nomadski on Thu May 03, 2018 1:24 am

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis


    @GarryB

    Thanks for your comments . And it is good to know that Russian scientists are making progress . And thinking about developing technologies . I think what you said is true . As far as detection goes . This I believe is sensor fusion . A computer putting together an image from different sources . I think the yanks have something like this . High physics . Spectrometers and radar in orbit of other planets in solar system . Detecting any movement of soil . And type of soil .

    But scientists also made the atom bomb . Sure it is very clever . But science by it's very nature . Must have tunnel vision . Scientists only take into account a very limited number of physical variables and then manipulate them to a high degree . And come up with somethings . A car . A house . An atom bomb . But the world is far more complicated than that . And it does not easily yield itself to analysis by man .

    I mentioned in a previous post . The longevity of the horse shoe crab . It has survived on earth for over 450 million years . Unchanged . So it must be a very lethal animal right ? More ferocious than a sabre tooth tiger ! Bigger than a T-Rex ? But no . It is different . It lives , because it is not in conflict with other animals . Or it's environment .

    On a logical level . No harmful relations are possible . Since destruction of one by the other . Leads to destruction of the relationship . This can not possibly be the rule . Because eventually there would only be left one form . Without diversity . But we see diversity in all forms . Animals . People . No two atoms are identical .

    So at the bottom of this idea of learning from nature , is the idea of how to live . Much more than how to win wars or to kill . And we should forget about social Darwinism . Crudely understood . To mean survival of the cruelest . Most destructive. I know it is difficult to see . When a Lion tears up a baby Zebra . Or "kills " . But animals do not kill . We humans kill . In order to kill , one must first understand the concept of self or " I " . And then conceptualise the other . And put the sentence together . But we anthromorphise . Wrongly .

    As I said , there are no harmful relations in nature . But we are part of nature . Then why can we harm ? The answer is that we are no longer part of the natural world . We do not obey natural laws . Or God's laws . We create wrongly our own laws that are contradictory to natural laws . And do damage to each other and the environment .

    So finding out about nature , is far more than finding out about how animals " fight " . You mentioned a snake bitting the hot engine of a car . But the snake was helping the car . And the car engine was hurting the snake . Long after cars vanish . Snakes will be bitting and helping other animals .

    Ancient Greeks used to rush to a flat plain field and form a straight line to confront an enemy . Although they could have remain hidden and shot at the enemy . But they tested the will of fighters . On a level field . It was beneficial to know who had greater reason to fight . American Indian tribes , used to approach enemy , and if even had a chance to kill with spear . Instead chose to tap them with a spear . Allowing them to escape death on first confrontation .

    So deciding on what equipment to build . We must decide on how this would benefit increase the humanity of the other side . How it would settle arguments . How it would allow the enemy to escape death . And be aware of their weak position .


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