P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

ricky123 wrote:

GarryB wrote:They will likely induct Oniks and then Zirconium when it is ready... think of it in the same way as they didn't put the Su-30MKI into Russian service either, but many of the things they learned joint developing the Su-30MKI they incorporated into their other upgrades like Su-35 etc.

Asking why they don't buy Brahmos is like asking them why they don't use Yakhont instead of Oniks...

but isnt brahmos better then oniks ?

I don't think Russia will use missiles inferior to what India have ,even if they are shared project. A reason for Russia not using brahmos , my best guess is not only for its limited range of 300km but also is not safe to use the same technology that India use ,since India is not a 100% loyal ally to Russia ,they buy weapons to US and Israel and other NATO members and had have been neutral in times Russia asked them for support. So is risky to their nation security to use weapons they fully have no control of its security and that India plans to sell to NATO countries ,that for sure they will look to reverse engineer.

Also , if im not mistaken there is a weapon treaty between US and Russia where neither one can sell ,or help in the creation of Cruise Missiles or Rockets that exceed 300km range. This is why no NATO country (aside US) have anti-ship missiles or rocket system beyond the 300km range. I think also apply to air defense systems.  SAme with Russian Allies.. all exports never pass the 300km range.

So range alone make the Onix way better anti-ship missiles for Russia than Brahmos.. since lets not forget USA have harpoons? with 1,200km range. In case of a real war India will not have a chance to fight an enemy at the sea that can fire a hundred of anti-ship missiles from 600 -1000 km away. Their Navy will be first destroyed before they have a chance to get in combat range that is if they rely only on brahmos missiles. So India will have to rely on their Navy combat jets to counter the limitations of their range of attack with their cruise missiles.

And when it come to very long range attacks , there is also another problem for brahmos but also could be to any european NATO member if they develop anti-ship missiles missiles. . that is precision. You cannot hit anything beyond the horizon that is moving ,unless you have a strong satellite network around the planet. And so far only US and Russia have enough satellites to cover all the planet and upgrade the guidance of any sensor and keep its precision under 10m of any target. I think China is the next country with more satellites in space but still way behind of US and Russia. and somewhere i read the precision of their satellites at best today is in the 50m. You need at least 20-30 satellites orbiting earth for any military use and long range missiles. So for Russia it will be very easy to lure away any buyer of brahmos by just explaining them , that still the missile will depend on Russian navigational network to operate at long distances.

developing Anti-ship missiles , ICBM or any rocket for military purposes beyond the horizon require either they be a space power and have a full network of satellites working or that they allied to a power that is one. expect in the next few couple of years truly revolutionary weapons from Russia with extreme long range and precision never before seen.

here is a good read of Russia Glonass modernization program until 2020

http://www.insidegnss.com/node/3353

Harpoons do not have range anywhere near 1200km.

You are thinking of Naval Anti-ship Tomahawk, which was retired in any case.

Is MBDA's Aster 30 capable of intercepting P 800 Oniks and Brahmos ?


In the Dubai Air Show , MBDA is showcasing the Aster 30 as an interceptor which in their words can intercept sea skimming cruise missiles like P 800 and Brahmos . ( They are actually showing a model of the Type 45 Destroyer with the Aster 30 on it ) .

Are their any credibility in such assessments ? Is the P 800 or Brahmos actually vulnerable to the Aster 30 ?

Yes.

Now can it intercept a salvo with certainty? That is the real question....

BQM-74 just recently struck US AEGIS ship which did not managed to shoot the subsonic target flying up to 50 meters above water line. Patetic. 

Ship hit by errant drone returns to San Diego

(two solders where injured)



Not a good advertisement for AEGIS.

Viktor wrote:Not a good advertisement for AEGIS.

Viktor , good information . My vote .

That being said the USS Chancellorsville cruiser was not tasked to use the Aegis when this incident happened . It was a freak accident.

TR1 wrote:Now can it intercept a salvo with certainty? That is the real question....

Very True . But then unless you have  a stockpile of cruise missiles like US ,Russia or China you cannot fire a salvo  .

Ergo , the question is ( or rather remains) will ships  fitted with the Aster 30  be able to negate 3 or 4  P 800 / Brahmos that' fired towards the ship ?

I think the Tico was not preparing for firing, and hence didn't have time to activate everything in time to shoot the drown.

Now the target isn't even particularly impressive, but let's not make too big deal out of it. Soviet Navy hit one of its own ships during trials one time too, even though it was a small ship and certainly no Aegis cruiser.

MOSCOW, August 20 (RIA Novosti) - A supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, developed jointly by Russia and India, leaves any enemy helpless as no effective protection against the BrahMos has been created so far, Sudhir Mishra, the new head of the BrahMos Aerospace Corporation told Rossiya Segodnya International Information Agency.
“Supersonic speed is the BrahMos’ major advantage. An enemy has yet no effective protection against such missiles. After the missile is launched, all the enemy can do is run. In fact, he has even no time to escape. That is why this is a very promising weapon. And it has no alternatives in the world so far,” Mishra said in an interview Tuesday adding that “even if any other country succeeds one day in creating missiles with similar characteristics, we will be a way ahead already.”
The BrahMos Aerospace chief said also that a number of countries are currently interested in the project, which may pave the way for the BrahMos’ exports in the future.
“It will be possible to export the BrahMos only to friendly nations, determined by the governments of India and Russia. Currently, many states are interested in our missiles. As soon as our governments decide on where to export we will be ready for deliveries,” Mishra stressed.
The Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace was founded in 1998 by the Indian Defense Research and Development Organization and Russian rocket design bureau of Machine Building. The venture was named after two rivers, the Brahmaputra in India and Russia’s Moskva.
The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 kilometers (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kilograms (660 pounds). It can effectively engage targets from an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the US-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.

- It is almost sad that this is true... You would think that navies with as much capability as the US Navy could defend themselves against supersonic AShMs like the Brahmos. - I don't even want to know how good Onyx is...

Submarine launch of Onyx or perhaps Brahmos

The thing is too friggin' fast to tell! - Definitely Onyx/Brahmos size, and looks to be the same speed as well...

What kind of sub?

I have a question.... Can the Bastion-P fire the Onyx or only the often mentioned Yakhont? I figure it would be the Onyx for quite obvious reasons, but all sources say otherwise.....

Cyberspec wrote:Submarine launch of Onyx or perhaps Brahmos

It's definitely Brahmos, and from my understanding it wasn't from a specific submarine but from "submarine like conditions".

Mike E wrote:I have a question.... Can the Bastion-P fire the Onyx or only the often mentioned Yakhont? I figure it would be the Onyx for quite obvious reasons, but all sources say otherwise.....

Domestic versions will have Onyx, export versions will have Yakhont.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Cyberspec wrote:Submarine launch of Onyx or perhaps Brahmos

It's definitely Brahmos, and from my understanding it wasn't from a specific submarine but from "submarine like conditions".

Mike E wrote:I have a question.... Can the Bastion-P fire the Onyx or only the often mentioned Yakhont? I figure it would be the Onyx for quite obvious reasons, but all sources say otherwise.....

Domestic versions will have Onyx, export versions will have Yakhont.  

Figured, as the "cover" looks unusual.

Thanks, so it has a range of over 500 km, meaning the units in Crimea cover almost the entire sea.

hm launch shaft looks shallow in the water considering light conditions ,and launch rocket engine burned out by the time missle turned on its side.
looks like yakhont is very depth limited for its launch parameters no more then 10 ,20m,  , suggesting submarine must come close to surface in order to launch so it will be more easily detectable.
i expected more.

You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...

Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...

i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.

navyfield wrote:

Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...

i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.

A) Yes, it is rated to be launched from a depth of 60 meters.

B) It prepositions itself over the water, so that doesn't mean a thing...

C) Not a weak-point, and the missile launched was a Brahmos...

Mike E wrote:

navyfield wrote:

Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...

i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.

A) Yes, it is rated to be launched from a depth of 60 meters.

B) It prepositions itself over the water, so that doesn't mean a thing...

C) Not a weak-point, and the missile launched was a Brahmos...

any proof for 60m depth capable launch claim???

navyfield wrote:

Mike E wrote:

navyfield wrote:

Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...

i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.

A) Yes, it is rated to be launched from a depth of 60 meters.

B) It prepositions itself over the water, so that doesn't mean a thing...

C) Not a weak-point, and the missile launched was a Brahmos...

any proof for 60m depth capable launch claim???

Any proof from you that it can not?

Who'S claim has more weight, some idiot on a forum that only bitches like a little pussy or manufactorer of submarine and SLBM?

allot of foaming but still no link or any substantial evidence ,welcome to my ignore list....

navyfield wrote:

Mike E wrote:

navyfield wrote:

Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...

i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.

A) Yes, it is rated to be launched from a depth of 60 meters.

B) It prepositions itself over the water, so that doesn't mean a thing...

C) Not a weak-point, and the missile launched was a Brahmos...

any proof for 60m depth capable launch claim???

Yes, go to *any* source that has information on the Brahmos! They are bound to have at least a little info on the subject of launching depth, and I guarantee that you can find one (I know I can)....

To everybody else; if you are so pissed off by this guy, just request he be banned rather than returning insults.... - As GarryB one said to me "it lowers yourself to their level".