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    Project 971: Akula class

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    Austin
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:58 am

    Makes an interesting read

    THE FUTURE OF THE BALLISTIC MISSILE SUBMARINE FORCE IN THE RUSSIAN NUCLEAR TRIAD

    TheArmenian
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:20 pm

    The US Navy has just a handfull of modern subs (SeaWolves and Virginias). The bulk of their fleet is made up of the old LAs and Ohios which are around 25 years old. Of course the Navy will not tell the public about the limitations (like diving depth) that are currently imposed on some of the older rustbuckets.

    The Russians/Soviets(secretive as they are)don't talk about what NATO subs they tracked etc. for obvious reasons. But it is well known that they did that commonly.

    As for the US tracking ability, I remembered a true event which involved a US SSN colliding with an Echo II class, The Americans reported that the Soviet sub was conclusively heard by sonar to have sunk. After the cold war, it emerged that the Echo was just damaged and returned to port without trouble....by the way the Captain of the Echo was Armenian.

    Austin
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:40 pm

    Here is an interesting discussion i had with SmoothieX12 on mp.net , He had served in Russian SSBN and had graduated from Naval institute at time of USSR.

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?185135-Russian-subs-stalk-UK-SSBN-in-echo-of-Cold-War-*/page7

    Note read 7 ,8 ,9 ,10 pages as it throws interesting light on ASW in general


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:50 pm

    1 ) How capable is Delta 4 in evading USN SSN hunting it , has it ever been trailed by US Navy SSN on patrol ?


    If all that is they would do with SSBN , they are better of building ICBM in hardened silos.

    A SSBN in harbour are hardly least vulnerable targets.


    Austin if submarine related technology and operations are areas of your interest ,you should be aware that vast majority of Russian SSBNs ,today ,DON'T stay never in harbours.
    Them simply patrol in zones of Russian Main Naval Control (that incidentally are also those offering ,by far, the most advantageous screening capabilities from passive acoustic detection), exploiting that since end of '70 years SLBM can destroy any target in the USA and Rurope from those very highly protected and surveilled naval "Sanctuaries".
    Several times has been proved ,just by Delta IV SSBNs - that is at today also the only submarine at world at having demonstrated the capability to launch in a single salvo all its ballistic missiles -, that Russian submarines are capable to launch theirs submarine launched intercontinental ballistic missiles catching NATO forces in the area completely by surprise (validating in this way the concept that ,if those successful launchs would be directed toward USA/Europe, an efficient "first strike option" would be accomplished efficiently).
    The last of those instances was two year and half ago.


    http://www.armybase.us/2009/07/russia-outwitted-u-s-strategic-defenses-with-missile-test/


    The reason for that is ,as you well know, purely technical (in those region the constant surface winds ,high difference in middle layer currentflux direction and thermal state ,high differences in salinity gradient and entropic ice-induced sound diffraction render passive acoustic detection very very difficult) .

    In 1995 (in the time of maximum crisis for Russian Navy) Eugene Miasnikov produced a study called "Future of Russian Strategic Nuclear Forces : Discussions and Arguments"


    http://old.nasledie.ru/voenpol/14_20/article.php?art=2


    It had taken into examination what was the chances, for the ,at the time, most advanced submarine NATO sonar (that mounted on Improved Los Angeles) to detect some of the Russian submarines of the times at different distances, coming to the point to conceding also to US submarines several irrational enormous advantages (sea perfectly calm , Russian ASW forces not operating at all in theirs zone of maximum control, Russian submarine don't attempting to evade, Russian submarine don't employing any anti detection countermeasure or employing self propelled decoys, neither counter-attacking engaging NATO submarine etc..etc...),it point out also that

    "we cannot ignore the fact that ,the enemy's SSNs will be located in a "hostile" environment where superior ASW forces will be fighting against them".


    The results are in the table i have reported down (note 1 represent 100% of chances ),with Model A and B representing advantageous and not advantageous factor for passive acoustic detection.


    Model A (personale note: very favorable conditions for sound propagation: Open Ocean , near surface sound channels ,no wind)


    Submarine------Type----------------Distance
    --------------------------------------50km----30km----10 km

    pr. 667 A-----(Yankee)------0.12-----0.95------1
    pr. 667 B-----(Delta I)-------0.05-----0.54------1
    pr. 667 BDR-(Delta III)----0----------0.15------0.95
    pr. 667BDRM(Delta IV)---0----------0.08------0.45
    pr. 971---------(Akula)--------0----------0-----------0.03


    Model B (personal note: not favorable conditions for sound propagation - Artic environment/Shallow water/wind such as near Russia Barent Sea)


    pr. 667 A----(Yankee)-------0.03------0.15-----1
    pr. 667 B----(Delta)----------0-----------0.05-----0.93
    pr. 667 BDR--(Delta III)---0-----------0----------0.55
    pr. 667 BDRM-(Delta IV)-0-----------0----------0.08
    pr. 971--------(Akula)---------0-----------0----------0

    Like you can see the chance of detection of relatively modern Russian submarines are very very low even in ideal conditions in area near to Russia (even only first version of Akula result almost impossible to track in those regions) and this offer also an easy explanation on the incapability of NATO forces to discover Delta-IV position before intercontinental ballistic missile launch.
    E. Miasnikov continue pointing out also that :

    " But, as result from our findings, the question of whose submarine is better is not important, if the levels of noise of Strategic Submarine is below a defined value. The maximum operational range of a submarine's sonar systems in this case is not limited by theirs level of technology , as was previously, but by the ocean's natural noise ,which is impossible to escape from."


    It mention also the enormous problems to engage a fast submarine employing torpedo ;practically even the more advanced will have a chance to effectively reach an enemy submarine carrying out eveasiuve measures only at very close range mainly because the closing velocity would become the difference between torpedo and submarine's speed .
    At those reduced ranges (often significantly less than 10 km for modern submarines as result from this study and the scientific literature of the sector) the engagement would be resolved well within reach of active sonar systems - capable to detect an hostile submarine in spite of any level of quieting at 20-25 km of distance- and of several others not-acoustic tracking systems , therefore ,in an open conflict scenario ,enromous advantages would be given to submarines capable to destroy enemy unities much faster than the enemy torpedo's time of engagement (such as supercavitating torpedo) to prevent to those enemy submarines to provide positional updates to theirs torpedo or ,instead , to those capable to evade quickly from the area while transfering the coordinates of the enemy submarines to allied surface and submarines placed at great stand-off ranges and equiped with weapons (such as ASW supersonic missiles) capable to engage them in a very short time and safely.

    I can add that all those elements concur also to validate the concept of the very fast progressive obsolescence's process of classical passive acoustic tracking systems and the perfect grounding of a not acoustic centered approach.


    Last note : The English title of the book i had mentioned in the previous response is " Soviet Naval Tactics" by Milan Vego , give to it a look .


    Best regards.








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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:57 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Austin if submarine related technology and operations are areas of your interest ,you should be aware that vast majority of Russian SSBNs ,today ,DON'T stay never in harbours.
    Them simply patrol in zones of Russian Main Naval Control (that incidentally are also those offering ,by far, the most advantageous screening capabilities from passive acoustic detection), exploiting that since end of '70 years SLBM can destroy any target in the USA and Rurope from those very highly protected and surveilled naval "Sanctuaries".

    Mindstorm , I am aware of the so called Bastion Strategy adopted by Soviets since 70's to patrol SSBN in safe protected zones and in the security of arctic.

    I was just responding to Garry that a SSBN on harbour is not good as its vulnerable even though it can fire its missile.


    Several times has been proved ,just by Delta IV SSBNs - that is at today also the only submarine at world at having demonstrated the capability to launch in a single salvo all its ballistic missiles -, that Russian submarines are capable to launch theirs submarine launched intercontinental ballistic missiles catching NATO forces in the area completely by surprise (validating in this way the concept that ,if those successful launchs would be directed toward USA/Europe, an efficient "first strike option" would be accomplished efficiently).
    The last of those instances was two year and half ago.


    http://www.armybase.us/2009/07/russia-outwitted-u-s-strategic-defenses-with-missile-test/

    I dont dispute that Delta 4 if required can do its job and with new Liner SLBM it gets better.

    The launch of SLBM was a bolt from blue for US intel and their SSN on patrol could not detect it.

    But please note this launch was done in peace time , had there been a crisis then US/NATO would have adopted a surge strategy and would have greatly increased its SSN fleet along Russian waters.

    What works well in peace time may prove to be difficult during crisis.



    The reason for that is ,as you well know, purely technical (in those region the constant surface winds ,high difference in middle layer currentflux direction and thermal state ,high differences in salinity gradient and entropic ice-induced sound diffraction render passive acoustic detection very very difficult) .

    I agree , the arctic represent the best bet for Russian SSBN survivability compared to any other areas of the ocean in the world besides the factor that you have mentioned , the other factor is no possibility to use Air Borne ASW asset due to coverage of ice so you cant drop sonobouys , very less possibility to use Surface ASW ship as they are covered with ice and would be vulnerable to Russian anti-ship missile in those areas , Employing communication is also difficult in all areas as ice would prevent in doing that.

    The only asset NATO/US can employ at arctic to hunt Russia SSBN is Submarine using Passive Acoustic , there too the issue you have mentioned above and constant drifting ice can degrade Passive Sonar performance exponentially.


    In 1995 (in the time of maximum crisis for Russian Navy) Eugene Miasnikov produced a study called "Future of Russian Strategic Nuclear Forces : Discussions and Arguments"


    http://old.nasledie.ru/voenpol/14_20/article.php?art=2


    I have read Eugene Miasnikov report before and though its a good reference as far as trends goes and can tell you in a nice way the enormity if the challanges involved in tracking Russian SSBN.

    It also makes a lot of assumption with respect to passive detection of Russian SSBN using passive sonar of US SSN etc he will have no access to US SSN Passive sonar performance and how it works in different acoustic/climatic condition and if the assumption is not accurate the end conclusion is not accurate.

    Plus he wrong concludes that Russian Typhoon SSBN is quiter then Delta 4 , now from recentpast statements of Russian Navy personal , we can confidently say that Delta 4 is the most silent SSBN and its better then Russian Typhoon , it also has the most accurate of Russian SLBM.

    Also the report does not take into account USN 4th Gen SSN like Sea Wolf or Virginia whose numbers are increasing and will replace the LA , US may deploy their best SSN asset like Sea Wolf and Virginia in the arctic to hunt Russian SSBN in patrol while may keep its LA to protect its CBG and other assets.

    Confronting a 4th Gen SSN will be enormously more challenging for Delta 4 or even Borei SSBN compared to LA.

    How ever I agree that Passive Sonar has reached its limit and Non-Acoustic sensor is the key areas of research for future , USN is even thinking of ways to employ active sonar using UUV and other assets for future.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:20 pm

    But please note this launch was done in peace time , had there been a crisis then US/NATO would have adopted a surge strategy and would have greatly increased its SSN fleet along Russian waters.

    What works well in peace time may prove to be difficult during crisis.


    Yes Austin that is surely true ,but we must consider that both Russia and USA take always into consideration a surprise " first strile" scenario.

    Practically if that day the order would have been to conduct a real surprise opening thermonuclear attack , 320 highly startegic targets in USA, Europe and ...known positions of NATO nuclear submarines in open sea, would have been attacked with a 100 Kt RV ; followed ,very likely, by much more numerous and powerful land based ICBMs RV.

    A simialr very dangerous "beheading" scenario is always taken into account by both Russian and American analysts and..... for good reasons.



    Plus he wrong concludes that Russian Typhoon SSBN is quiter then Delta 4 , now from recentpast statements of Russian Navy personal , we can confidently say that Delta 4 is the most silent SSBN and its better then Russian Typhoon

    Austin can you point out in what study it sustain that Typhoon SSBN is quiter then Delta 4 ?
    In at least two works i have read from it (one is reported down here), E. Miasnikov sustain that Delta IV is more quiet than Thyphoon.


    http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm


    I are interested to read some of its earlier (i suppose) eximations on niose level of SSBNs , have you a link or the title of the book ? Thanks




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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:40 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:Yes Austin that is surely true ,but we must consider that both Russia and USA take always into consideration a surprise " first strile" scenario.

    Practically if that day the order would have been to conduct a real surprise opening thermonuclear attack , 320 highly startegic targets in USA, Europe and ...known positions of NATO nuclear submarines in open sea, would have been attacked with a 100 Kt RV ; followed ,very likely, by much more numerous and powerful land based ICBMs RV.

    A simialr very dangerous "beheading" scenario is always taken into account by both Russian and American analysts and..... for good reasons.

    Well most analyst believe there wont be any pre-emptive or bolt from blue strike in a nuclear scenario , the problem will gradually grow causing international crises and only at the end it would lead to nuclear fight scenario .....giving time for each other to upgrade their asset.

    Some thing similar to cuban missile crises where crises grew to Defcon 2 but gradually.


    Austin can you point out in what study it sustain that Typhoon SSBN is quiter then Delta 4 ?
    In at least two works i have read from it (one is reported down here), E. Miasnikov sustain that Delta IV is more quiet than Thyphoon.

    Sorry my bad i got confused with the statement of Akula being 10db lower then Delta 4 and took that Akula for Typhoon

    http://www.armscontrol.ru/subs/snf/snf03221.htm

    Thats interesting , I do hope with the above report is a aprox judgement of noise level of submarine and Akula is rated at 100 - 90 db and classified as quite submarine.

    I have seen this report before and i think the report was made in 95-98 period so the Akula in question is probably Akula-1 or at best Akula-2

    I have read Gepard is a very unique among Akula with improvements over Nose Quitening and Sonar Performance at top speed ( I read in Janes Akula-2/Gepard sonar does not wash out till it reaches 25 knots and this capability was so far only existed with Sea Wolf class )

    A wash out means here Passive Sonar is completely blind due to speed and is not useful.

    From what i understand Gepard has this unique ability like Sea Wolf to do a fast search at targets without compromising its speed , at least its passive sonar will be usable at 20-25 knots.

    Also when Gepard was commisioned in 2001 its designer said she was the quitest submarine in the world and at that time Sea Wolf was operational , So it wont be suprising at certain tactical speed Gepard could be as quite or more quiter then sea wolf.

    Ok here is the interview with the General Designer of Malachite on Gepard , The whole interview is interesting.

    http://www.wps.ru/en/pp/kursk/2001/10/16/1.html

    Captain Pavel Nychko, a representative of the Defense Ministry, said, "There are no submarines which can compete with the Gepard in the world's oceans."

    I just hope with Yasen they move to another threshold on quitening and other areas.

    I have also read the Lada submarine have quiteness which is comparable or lower to sea wolf.




    I are interested to read some of its earlier (i suppose) eximations on niose level of SSBNs , have you a link or the title of the book ? Thanks

    Actually what i am stating is what I have learnt reading over period of 10 years or so when I got interested in topic , I did have lot of links but couple of computer crashes and I lost them all Sad

    Although many of the links that you and TR1 post now remind me of my old times and I see i have read those some times.

    Plus a lot of interesting information of non-classfied nature can be obtained in US Congress report if you have the time and patience to dig those.

    As far as book goes I have Norman Polmar book on Russia and US submarine and The Rising Tide.

    If you have good books to recommend in english on this subject specially Russian Submarine let me know.

    Thankfully we have got back the era where new projects are being built and this decade we will see Yasen and Improved Yasen , Borei and Improved Borei and Lada clas and improved Kilo.

    I guess that will keep the Intelligence Community Busy and so will be people like us who are interested in this topic.

    Just recollects in my mind Sea Wolf SSN is rated at 80 db at SL, 1 kHz , I also read that men of north have found Sea Wolf to be a harder target to keep track off.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:17 pm

    From Rubin http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/en/projects/naval_engineering/nuclear_powered_cruise_missile_submarines/

    In 1980s, the third generation nuclear submarines, Projects 949 (Oscar I) and 949A (Oscar II), armed with anti-ship cruise missiles were built to Rubin's designs. These submarines feature high underwater speed, excellent manoeuvrability, easy control, considerable diving depth and low noise. The option to fire all missiles in one salvo backed with the satellite target designation ensure selectivity and accuracy in reaching sea targets with cruise missiles. During continuous patrols, submarine habitability is supported by research-proved environment (air, humidity, temperature, etc.), medical care, alimentation and recreation.

    Advanced concepts implemented in Projects 949 and 949A found solid proof in operation.

    That salvo firing capability is pretty much phenominal , say at 400 km from CBG it can fire all 24 Missile at the target based on Satellite Data or Data from its own Passive Sonar and just sprint out at 30 knots.

    A CBG facing 24 Shipwreck approaching at her is really a tough nut.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:19 pm

    Here is Rubin has to say on Amur 1650 which actually surfaced displacement of 1765T
    http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/en/projects/naval_engineering/conventional_submarines/amur_1650/

    Brochure http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/fileadmin/editor/listovki/Amur_1650_eng.pdf

    Compared to Kilo class submarines, the Amur 1650 submarine features a reduced displacement. The boat is distinguished by the capability of firing up to 6 missiles in a salvo against targets at sea and on shore, state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems and a sonar with a unique passive antenna to detect silent targets at a large range.

    Acoustic signature of the Amur 1650 submarine is several times lower compared to Kilo class submarines which are currently considered to be the most silent in the world. The submarine is equipped with electronic warfare systems of new generation based on the recent hi-tech solutions.

    The provision is made for the boat to be fitted with an air-independent propulsion plant with electrochemical generators to considerably increase submerged endurance and cruising range. The plant with stock of reagents is located in a special compartment module, which can be incorporated into the submarine during construction or repair / refit.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:48 pm

    That salvo firing capability is pretty much phenominal , say at 400 km from CBG it can fire all 24 Missile at the target based on Satellite Data or Data from its own Passive Sonar and just sprint out at 30 knots.

    A CBG facing 24 Shipwreck approaching at her is really a tough nut.


    Yes Austin moreover taking in consideration the offensive/defensive features that was implemented in the design :


    One lead missile per every 24 in the salvo flies at high altitude to reconnoiter the target, using its radar in active and passive modes. The active mode is used in quick "looks," then turned off to increase the penetration probability. The lead missile assigns targets to all subordinate missiles and communicates with the other lead missiles in the massive salvo to coordinate the attack. To achieve this, the missile is equipped with a powerful digital computer with three processors.
    The missile has an onboard integrated electronic-countermeasures suit for avoiding enemy anti-missile attacks using a combination of maneuver and deception jamming. The computer could order the missile to one of various stored courses with multiple altitudes. At high altitude, the missile speed is Mach 2.5, while at low (sea-skimming) altitude, it is Mach 1.5. Vital parts of the missile are armored to increase penetration against fire from Phalanx-type close-in weapon systems and against fragments of closely exploding air-defense missiles. The missile has a nuclear warhead with a selectable yield of 200 or 350 kT, or a conventional 750 kg unitary shaped charge, or bomblets (primary for anti-ship attack, but also useable against land targets: 750 x 1 kg, a mix of incendiary, AP, HE, which can be varied to meet requirements).


    Returning to the center of this topic we can say that ,at the end of the day, the question of P-500/P-700 and P-1000 of theirs outstanding capabilities and theirs unique CONOPS, is exactly the same linked to subamrines/ships employing a weapon like RPK-7 weapons against enemy submarines.

    Sometimes we hear some people making very naive assumptions (questioning the utility of missiles with 500-600 or 700 km of range) simply because in theirs brain become totally unconceivable that a weapons carried on a particular platform could employ target positional coordinates coming from dozen if not hundres sensor suits external to its structure. ; so the usual naive question you ear from those scarcely informed people is " What is the point to have a so devastating and complex weapon capable to strike at over 600 km of distance if the radar horizon of the ship carrying it is 70-80 km at maximum ? ...Those Soviet was completely mad ". Laughing Laughing


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:59 pm

    Yes Shipwreck is one big missile , its a pity they are replacing it with smaller Onisk.

    Also i have learnt Yasen does not carry 65 cm TT , so only 533 mm TT

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:57 am

    Austin wrote:Yes Shipwreck is one big missile , its a pity they are replacing it with smaller Onisk.

    Also i have learnt Yasen does not carry 65 cm TT , so only 533 mm TT

    Well I dont think Onix lost any of Granits goodies.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:05 am

    Mindstorm wrote:

    Returning to the center of this topic we can say that ,at the end of the day, the question of P-500/P-700 and P-1000 of theirs outstanding capabilities and theirs unique CONOPS, is exactly the same linked to subamrines/ships employing a weapon like RPK-7 weapons against enemy submarines.

    I read that Soviets employed number of IR/radar/optical satellites to track US CBG and to have clear picture what was going on on the battlefield. System was called Legenda. It was conceived to work with Granit missile as would give it coordinates of CBG. Those would than be relayed to ground based stations or directly to submarines. Im not sure if those info could be directly feed in the missile allowing Oscars to run away in safety and providing missiles with info.

    Those where monstrosuos systems by that time. Also info could be shared by Tu-95/22M3 and all others.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:43 am

    I think you guys are missing a serious point... when the Granit was made... in the Early 1980s... which you might not remember, but I certainly do.

    I had a book on computers and it said beware of people trying to sell you a 64K computer, because you will never type that much in a week. 32K computers are fine.

    Now let me clarify... back then there were no computer shops, there were radio and electronic shops, but they didn't sell computer software till later on.

    You got computer software in a book shop... and it was in computer magazines that listed the programs, which you bought and took home and typed out.

    Floppy drives were too expensive and hard drives were simply not an option.

    In fact by the time the IBM PC came out the 3.5 in floppy was brand new technology... which is why they are the A: drive, because the older 5 1/4 in drive were much larger physically but with the same or less capacity, so the 5 1/4 drive became the B: for all those people who had lots of the old 5 1/4 disks for previous computers.

    The Hard Drives came much later.

    I remember getting a tape drive... which was basically an audio cassette tape player that could be connected up to the computer. You typed out the program and then saved it to tape... it sounded like that screech you heard with the old dial up internet connections and I guess they were the same thing really.
    Once you had saved it onto tape and recorded the position you could later on position the tape in the right place and press play and then press start on the computer and it would upload the software so you didn't have to type it all out again every time you wanted to play... Amazing technology. Shocked

    Anyway... a modern missile with all sorts of two way datalinks, a high resolution radar and modern electronics and a vew thousand million lines of code today will likely be even more smart and tricky and capable...

    The Oniks is a very long and relatively slim aerodynamic weapon that uses a ramjet propulsion system instead of the turbojet of the Granit, so I would rather suspect that the reduction in weight is largely due to the removal of an engine that weighs about 1 ton and its replacement by an hollow tube with a few moving bits and fuel lines that is a ramjet.

    The advantage of the Oniks of course is that a much wider range of platforms can now carry it, unlike the Granit which was carried by only the largest vessels in the Russian fleet. Now even corvettes carry UKSK launchers...

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:16 pm

    Just had a discussion on how SS-N-16 works , it seems that when the SS-N-16 Veter is fired and reaches its destination , the torpedo is dropped down and then it enters the water and does a spiral movement downward.

    The spiral movement is to ensure a 360 degree search as it moves down with its sensors and once a target is found , it torpedo moves in the direction of target.

    The sensors used is a combination of Passive and Active search sonar and it also has wake homers sensors, so all three sensors are on the torpedo.

    If the torpedo misses the target , its does a rerun at the target.

    If true its quite impressive.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:27 pm

    Austin wrote:Just had a discussion on how SS-N-16 works , it seems that when the SS-N-16 Veter is fired and reaches its destination , the torpedo is dropped down and then it enters the water and does a spiral movement downward.

    The spiral movement is to ensure a 360 degree search as it moves down with its sensors and once a target is found , it torpedo moves in the direction of target.

    The sensors used is a combination of Passive and Active search sonar and it also has wake homers sensors, so all three sensors are on the torpedo.

    If the torpedo misses the target , its does a rerun at the target.

    If true its quite impressive.


    Yes Austin this is an explicative image from the maker.





    The type of guidance and target acquisition is not too different from that of 91RE1 of Klub missile family

    Yes ,it is a truly impressive weapon that ,like the 91RE1 ,has stil today no corresponding abroad and opening virtually countless tactical solutions and capabilities ,simply out of reach for any enemy devoid of a similar system.
    The only real defect of the RPK-6/7 torpedo ,at least its older version, is a reduced probability to hit in very shallow waters ,but this is a problem common for almost all air delivered light torpedo.



    Last edited by Mindstorm on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:32 pm


    This is a video of a salvo launch of two RPK-7




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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:53 am

    The sensors used is a combination of Passive and Active search sonar and it also has wake homers sensors, so all three sensors are on the torpedo.

    To be able to operate in active search mode, it already has the components necessary to act passively.

    You have two ears. Together you can use them to find the sources of sound... A telephone rings in a messy bedroom you use a combination of the direction the sound is coming from in relation to your two ears and you physically move to make the sound appear louder... as long as it keeps on ringing you will eventually locate it.

    The torpedo has active sonar homing, which means it has a mechanism to make a noise and a mechanism to detect the reflection of that noise and its precise direction. To use it in passive mode is simply to have it listen for noises and not ping itself... if it hears something it analyses the signal to see if it is a target or a whale, or something natural. If it is identified as a target using a library of target signatures, then it starts up its motor and heads towards the noise.

    If it doesn't it might ping to see what is there.... if it detects a large object it accelerates and attacks.

    Yes ,it is a truly impressive weapon that ,like the 91RE1 ,has stil today no corresponding abroad and opening virtually countless tactical solutions and capabilities ,simply out of reach for any enemy devoid of a similar system.

    Not strictly true. The US had the Subroc and the ship launched equivalent Asroc, and they were planning its replacement called Sea Lance, but the quietening technology of Soviet and then Russian subs made it pointless without a nuke warhead, so it was cancelled.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:28 pm


    The US had the Subroc and the ship launched equivalent Asroc,

    GarryB SUBROC and ASROC aren't in any way weapons equivalent to RPK-6/7 series neither to 91R series of ASW missiles.


    ASROC/SUBROC series were unguided ,subsonic, rocket propelled systems armed at maximum with very light torpedo (only in the surface version) uncapable of any type of area search/engagement function and with range of 15,8 Km in the '70 years version and 22 Km in the 1993 RUM-139 Vertical Launch version; the submarine version -UUM-44-,as well specified by Norman Friedman, was even worse at the point that ,for its complete lack of any capability of point engagement and its very low reliability its only possible employment would have been area saturating attacks using nuclear warheads .

    Even only the antediluvian end of '60 years Метель -SS-N-14- was vastly superior to ASROC in practically any cardinal parameter ,but also here even attampt to talk of a comparable system would be completely wrong.
    The Метель was a far more complex and efficient system , capable to point engage both submarines following a 400 m cruise altitude, at over 55 Km of distance (three times and half the engagement range of the ASROC operative in the same years..) with terminal area serch function and surface targets following a sea-skinning profile at 15 m of altitude


    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/rastrub/rastrub.shtml


    and they were planning its replacement called Sea Lance, but the quietening technology of Soviet and then Russian subs made it pointless without a nuke warhead, so it was cancelled

    Also the failed UUM-125 Sea Lance project,if ever realized,in '90 years would have been vastly inferior ,in any cardinal parameter ,against the end of '70 years RPK-7 Very Happy Very Happy


    Reality is ,obviously, much simpler : Exist miltary-scientific sectors wherein URSS/Russia was/is vastly head of Western nations (and similar products into examination pertain just to one of those sectors) and others (such as data processing systems or UAV technology) where is true the opposite ; in those sectors the gap is so wide that attempt to find exact corrispectives on a side or the other conduct to Kafkaesque assuptions .


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:41 am

    I knew they were inferior... Smile

    But they are also supersonic ballistic rockets that deliver a torpedo to a distant target.

    There is also the Australian Ikara, which was similar to SS-N-14, though inferior in range and with no anti ship secondary capability (ie radar and IR guidance for anti ship use).

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:33 pm

    Regarding submarine stealth- I was reading around about the Kurks the other day, apparently the salvage ROV operators (commercial oil guys, pretty high tech equipment) almost ran into the Kursk on several occasions due to it being essentially invisible to their sonars.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:37 am

    TR1 wrote:Regarding submarine stealth- I was reading around about the Kurks the other day, apparently the salvage ROV operators (commercial oil guys, pretty high tech equipment) almost ran into the Kursk on several occasions due to it being essentially invisible to their sonars.

    Well the ROV was using active sonar to find the Kursk and since the submarine uses layered Rubber Coating to make it less visible to active sonar , the ROV has problem due to the same reason.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:41 am

    While the concept of SS-N-16 is sound for stand of target engagement , its probably high time they develop a Son of SS-N-16 using the modern electronics/solid fuel and propulsion plus most importantly newer Torpedoes like Fizik-2.

    Since it seems like 533 mm TT will be the standard and 650 mm will fade away , it would make sense to move to modern variant of SS-N-16.

    We really know so less on what is going on Torpedo front these days.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:57 pm

    Austin... I am surprised at you...

    One member of the Club family delivers Torpedoes to a range of 40km for the ship launched model and 50km for the sub launched model.

    Every modern Russian ship with a UKSK system will be able to use it...

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:40 pm

    I know about Klub but I am talking about the big long range ones with 533 mm Torpedoes , Klub carries a small torpedo APR-3 series which are smaller 350 mm torpedoes.

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/512/521/

    http://militaryforces.ru/weapon-2-35-212.html

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