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    Project 971: Akula class

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    Russian Patriot
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:58 pm

    Captain, sailor acquitted over sub disaster

    RIA Novosti

    10:17 30/09/2011 VLADIVOSTOK, September 30 (RIA Novosti) - A jury has dropped negligence charges against the captain of a Russian nuclear submarine in which 20 people died when a fire suppressant system was accidentally set off three years ago.

    Seventeen of the dead were civilians, killed when fire-suppressant freon gas was released on the Nerpa attack submarine during sea trials in the Sea of Japan in November 2008.

    Another 21 people were injured, in Russia's worst naval accident since the sinking of the Kursk nuclear submarine in 2000.

    The Nerpa's captain, Dmitry Lavrentyev, and engineer Dmitry Grobov, who allegedly set off the sub's fire safety system "without authorization and for no reason," have been charged with professional negligence resulting in death or injury.

    The jury at a naval court in the far eastern port city of Vladivostok acquitted the two men on Friday.

    Naval prosecutors said they would appeal the decision.

    "The jury did not acknowledge the fact of the release of the fire-suppressant mixture," a Pacific Fleet prosecutor said. "This is strange because this did happen."

    The Nerpa was undergoing shakedown trials and had 208 people aboard, nearly three times its normal complement.

    A former senior medical officer with the Pacific Fleet alleged in May the Nerpa's firefighting system contained a "lethal" mixture of freon and trichloroethylene - a commonly used industrial solvent which is highly toxic and corrosive - rather than pure freon.

    Workers at the Amur Shipyard, where the submarine was built, said in an open letter in the same month that Lavrentyev and Grobov were "scapegoats" and that the disaster was the result of "corruption and disintegration of the military-industrial sector."

    The Nerpa is currently on lease to the Indian navy.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-110930-rianovosti03.htm

    GarryB
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:30 am

    I think this highlights a serious problem within the Russian military where finding someone to blame ie scapegoats, seems to be the highest priority, where the highest priority should be trying to find out what really happened and making changes so it wont happen again, or that if it can happen again there are processes and procedures in place to minimise the negative effects.

    Time and time again we hear about commanders and captains of this or that coming under scrutiny, and of course such people are responsible for their boats/bases etc etc, but if freon has been stolen you can hardly blame the captain of the boat, just like when your base burns down you can hardly blame the commander when that commander has only just taken command and has recorded multiple attempts to complain about a lack of fire protection for the base and as cost cutting measures has had his fire brigade taken from him etc etc.

    It is even worse when whistle blowers become scapegoats, which also happens too much too.

    Very pleased this captain and the sailor are not going to be held accountable for the dishonesty of those that conspired to steal the Freon.

    In China they did something similar because they were watering down baby milk and to hide the fact that it was watered down they added an industrial chemical to change the chemical content to make it look more like non watered down milk. The chemical was relatively safe in small doses, but for babies... that consumed nothing else it was fatal...

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:12 pm

    They need to investigate where those tanks went and who switched them. They need to be given life in the gulag.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:27 am

    Yes, who did it, who helped cover it up.

    Probably easiest to follow the money.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:04 pm

    Russia hands over Nerpa nuclear attack submarine to India: report

    IRNA - Islamic Republic News Agency

    New Delhi, Dec 31, IRNA -- Russia has handed over the much-awaited nuclear-powered attack submarine Nerpa to India on a 10-year lease, boosting the Indian navy's fire-power.

    The Akula-II class Nerpa nuclear submarine had recently finished sea trials.

    'The signing ceremony held at the Bolshoi Kamen ship building facility in the (Far East) Primorye region in Russia Wednesday, where the Nerpa is now based,' said a pti report.

    The deal for the submarine, which is being transferred on a 10-year lease, was worth USD 920 million.

    The report said an Indian crew would sail the Akula II class craft to its home base at the end of January.

    'All of the naval tests and performance checks have been completed,' the Russian navy official said.

    The submarine, capable of remaining underwater for months, will be rechristened as 'INS Chakra' and it would be for the first time in more than two decades that the Indian navy would have a nuclear attack submarine.

    When Russia makes the delivery, it will make India only the sixth operator of nuclear submarines in the world.

    The submarine deal had figured during Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Russia earlier this month.

    The Nerpa, an Akula II-class attack submarine, had originally been scheduled for delivery in 2008 but an accident during sea trials on November 8 that year had forced the Russian authorities to put it on hold.

    Twenty people, mostly civilians, had been killed when a fire-suppressant gas was released on the Nerpa during shakedown trials, in one of Russia's worst naval accidents.

    The Akula-II class submarines are equipped with 28 nuclear-capable cruise missiles with a striking range of 3,000 km. The Indian version is reportedly expected to be armed with the 300-km Club nuclear-capable missiles.

    India had funded the completion of the Nerpa nuclear submarine at Amur Shipyard before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.

    2160**1422
    Islamic Republic News Agency/IRNA NewsCode: 30741655

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/india/2011/india-111231-irna01.htm

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:25 am

    How many Acula's are in service?

    I have a list there, can anyone confirm?

    K-317 PANTERA 1990 NOR
    K-331 MAGADAN 1990 PAC
    K-391 BRATSK 1989 PAC
    K-461 VOLK 1991 NOR
    K-328 LEOPARD 1992 NOR
    K-419 KUZBASS 1992 PAC
    K-154 TIGR 1993 NOR
    K-157 VEPR' 1995 NOR
    K-295 SAMARA 1995 PAC
    K-335 GEPARD 2001 NOR

    GarryB
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:02 am

    Technically you are talking about the Schuka-B or Bars Class as mentioned in the thread title.

    The Akula class is called Typhoon in the west and is a very large third gen SSBN.

    For the state of the Navy try here:

    http://russian-ships.info/eng/today/

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:55 am

    From the information reveled recently , it seems upgraded submarine life can be extended to 35 years , so be it SSBN , SSN or SSGN any submarine that has been commissioned in say 1990 can serve the Navy till 2025 with these upgrades.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:06 am

    And it should be kept in mind that different upgrades will suit different vessels in different ways.

    For instance to be a research vessel has certain requirements that are not as demanding as the requirements to be a successful SSN or SSBN or SSGN in 2025.

    Well, lets fact it, most attack subs will likely have vertical launch tubes for Kalibre fitted, so there wont be SSNs... just SSGNs most likely.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:43 pm

    Austin wrote:From the information reveled recently , it seems upgraded submarine life can be extended to 35 years , so be it SSBN , SSN or SSGN any submarine that has been commissioned in say 1990 can serve the Navy till 2025 with these upgrades.

    Indeed. And quite a few of the subs are newer as well, and will not need replacement well past 2020, assuming they are taken care of:

    971:
    Gepard: commissioned, 2001.
    Vepr, commissioned 1995.
    Samara: commissioned 1995.
    Tigr: commissioned 1993.

    949:
    Omsk: commissioned 1996.
    Tomsk: commissioned 1996.
    Tver: commissioned 1992.
    Orel: commissioned 1992.

    Austin
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:03 am

    Upgrades are expensive affair and time consuming they need to cut the submarine to refuel it and then modernise the electronics , sonars , weapons etc.

    So unless an upgrade adds 10-12 years of useful life to the sub its not going to be worth it.

    Most of the subs from early 90's will go through an upgrade as they have useful life and are quite modern.

    from what i have read Akula will be upgraded to Gepard/Nerpa standard.

    and oscar will get its own upgrade the only known thing about it is Shipwreck will be replaced by Kalbir and Yakhont.

    I have come across pictures that shows 3 Kalbir or Onisk for single Shipwreck , is that confirmed ?

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:28 am

    Hello TR1 and others who can read Russian.

    Is there any thing known on Akula SSN noise level and acoustics ,how did she perform in service ?

    I have been trying to do some research on it and it seems even US Admirals have been impressed with Akula performance.

    I am looking more in terms of what reputed Russian write up has to say on it ? Since I have read what most Western authors had to say on it.

    What is the status of Victor 3 SSN specially the most modern ones ?

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:35 pm


    Austin wrote:US has invested massive amounts in man , machine and material to come up with an effective ASW system on global scale , here is a good write up on DARPA effort which played a key role in this ASW effort.

    A History of DARPA’s Contributions to Antisubmarine Warfare

    Hopefully the Russian could catch up in ASW within the next decade.


    Austin i must say very thanks to you for this article (another bright proof ,if that was still necessary, of the lousy level of those type of PR publications aimed at public opinion consuption Laughing Laughing ) on the....supposedly.....great achievements of LAMBDA project in ASW operations and with a statement of ....Secretary of the Navy John Lehman Laughing Laughing ... even totally warped in its original meaning ,i have no laughed for so long since a very long time.

    Those J .Lehman's words, (a sort of public slogan which refer to capability to possibly engage the outer layer of Soviet submarines at defence of national SSBN "sanctuaries" in the first 5 minutes of a war thanks to the reduced range resulting from its "bright ideas" on NATO naval unit’s deployments Razz Razz ) are inserted,in fact, in the NATO naval doctrine it had proposed to contrast URSS's worrying quantitative/qualitative expansionand envisioning a "full offensive" deployment of an enormous number of US naval unities close to Northern URSS Navy controlled area -practically well within SOSS and Northern district Air Force's reach !!!- , relying on the rear coverage of SOSUS ,to "compress" operational manoeuvring's area of URSS's submarines and ships and ,supposedly, prevent so Soviet unities to press against or destroy the, at this point, vital SOSUS's nodes , becoming capable so to attack freely NATO's deep refurbishment lines.

    I know,i know this could appear a doctrine naive and totally suicide ,but it appear so for no other reason that it…… WAS totally suicide Very Happy Very Happy .... , but we must realize that it is the same John Lehman who, in the meantime that all the NATO’s scientists of the sector and all its strategic analysts was losing theirs sleep at compute how much days a large scale conventional offensive of URSS would have reach the European Atlantic coast and what type of tactical nuclear weapon’s employment (the only serious and credible response found to have some chance of success) would have not triggered a nuclear response by part of Soviets and when the whole NATO diplomatic sectors was attempting to lure Soviets at sign the CFE , had proposed as solution to...invade "at surprise" URSS from the Pacific and reach Moscow after a ground campaign through the Siberia !!!
    A true GENIUS Razz Razz

    I image that it is unnecessary to explain why John Lehaman was ,by far, the most beloved NATO's military figure in URSS at the time and why was very common , at the time , among Soviet officials, the joke:

    "Pray the God to preserve Secretary Lehman in spirit ,in health and.....in charge" Laughing Laughing

    (The serious note is that this already inherently naive and suicidal doctrine was greatly worsened and would have, likely, conducted the NATO Navy to a very quick demise in an hypothetical war ,by the fact that NATO analysts was totally unaware :

    1) That SOSUS structure and data flow were completely compromised by Walker/Withworth 's ring with the exposure of all the NATO ballistic submarines

    2) Of the wide overmatch and the linked invisible, dramatic shift in submarine operations, generated by the introduction in Soviet Navy of vastly superior weapon systems both offensive in nature -such as RPK-6/7 Водопад/Ветер - tactical - such as the PMK-1 mine - or defensive – such as the Mg-74 self propelled submarine simulator ,the RG-28 self propelled active sonar simulator or the submarine hull mounted polymer dispensers for carry out otherwise impossible evasion or anti-torpedo manoeuvres -

    3) That Soviets had ,since a long time, realised that increase in quieting would have rendered passive acoustic detection a less and less central element in ASW and invested heavily in breakthroughs in not acoustic detection , in particular with space-based submarine detection (URSS was already at the time at least 15 years head of NATO in the anti-surface worldwide detection and tracking system with RORSAT / EORSAT ), capitalising obviously the very poor depth limit of large majority of NATO submarines, and convection cell detection ; all of that linked to the capability to conduct a true decapitating strike against NATO ballistic submarines employing thermonuclear RVs of land based ballistic missiles (the successful tests conducted in 1984 with RSD-10’s RV in the Barent Sea confirmed the capability) .



    “Russian could catch up in ASW within the next decade”…


    In the next decade ,under total silence , Russian Kosmonit Center would have likely already completed and put in orbit the second generation of submerged submarines multimode detection/tracking satellites (capable also against enemy submarines travelling at greater deepness ) ; catching with USA’s ASW capability's line -a true technological blind-alley as already brightly foreseen in URSS times -, would mean literally for Russia an involution of 25 -30 years.
    Limited conventional conflict and full scale thermonuclear war ,involve the employment of technical capabilities completely on different levels....


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:20 pm

    Austin wrote:Hello TR1 and others who can read Russian.

    Is there any thing known on Akula SSN noise level and acoustics ,how did she perform in service ?

    I have been trying to do some research on it and it seems even US Admirals have been impressed with Akula performance.

    I am looking more in terms of what reputed Russian write up has to say on it ? Since I have read what most Western authors had to say on it.

    What is the status of Victor 3 SSN specially the most modern ones ?


    http://www.armiya-i-flot.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=126:mnogocalevaya-podvodnaya-lodka-proekta-971-schuka-b&catid=43:voenno-morskoy-flot&Itemid=63


    As you can see since Improved Akula's operational introduction SOSUS becomed almost completly useless and at tactical speed - up to 9 Knots- improved Akula gived proof to be almost undetectable even when very near to densely defended USA Eastern sector.
    This can aid you to realise the very unwise and nearsighted choice ,by part of USA, to put all its eggs in the acoustic department when Soviets ,conversely, with a more holistic approach, had gained primacy in almost any other segment of subamrine technology, each of which capable to offset or also surpass any possible advantage in the acoustic department and in ways much more difficult to neutralise.

    Russian Navy consider ,at today, to have not only reached but surpassed the USA submarines (as already foreseen by N.Polmar more than 15 yeas ago) also in this last technological niche -quieting- with Yasen and that this primacy will be widened with Kazan (at least until a new generation of American submarines will see the light).


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:21 pm

    Mindstorm , Its good to hear from you on this issue.

    But with due respect would have to defer on your conclusion that USSR submarine were superior to NATO/US on acoustic quietening.

    1 ) US and to a good extent NATO held a complete acoustic superiority over USSR submarine specially in the long range detection of submarine in narrow tonal. For good part of USSR post WW2 submarine history Soviets were not even aware of this weakness till it was given away by Walker espoinage ring.

    2 ) Soviet Submarine scored in areas like having superior numbers and perhaps superior weapons but inferior Sonar system and Electronics.

    3 ) Soviet submarine caught with US early LA class of submarine with late model Victor 3 , Akula SSN caught up with LA class and Akula 2 were superior to improved LA class , but by then US moved to Sea Wolf Class and then Virginia Class SSN and retained their superiority once again.

    4 ) Only with Yasen SSN Russian Acoustic will catch up with US Virginia and NATO 4th Gen submarine like UK Astute ....Yasen is superior in fire power ofcourse but US today has a large fleet of Virginia SSN and 3 Sea Wolf class so number advantage is still heavily tilted with US Submarine fleet.

    5 ) Akula-2/1 SSN are really no match for Virginia or Sea Wolf in acoustic quitening or Sonars , it does have some kind of non-acoustic means of detection system called SOKS but no one really knows how well it works , I have yet to hear on any Akula sucessfuly tracking a Seawolf SSN or Virginia SSN , if you have heard of any let me know.

    6 ) Akula SSN though have tracked US LA Class and US SSBN quite a few times. As per Russian Admiral UK SSN is a much bigger challenge.

    7 ) We really do not know how well Space Based Submarine Tracking sensors well actually , I have my doubts on it.

    Ofcourse statements from Official like we will take out all Soviet submarine in first 5 minutes of war is foolish at best and mischievous at best. But there is also no denying that US retains a good deal of acoustic advantage over current Russian submarine.

    Most respected western authors like Normon Polmar also believe that US retains the advantage , Books like Rising Tide by Russian author also confirms US acoustic advantage and why to find exactly how much they lag was the reason Russian Admiral carried Op Atrina with Victor SSN.

    Ofcourse there is one chap called Batista who in US Congress claims Soviet/Russian superior to US submarine but thats the only chap i have heard ever heard saying that Laughing

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:46 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:As you can see since Improved Akula's operational introduction SOSUS becomed almost completly useless and at tactical speed - up to 9 Knots- improved Akula gived proof to be almost undetectable even when very near to densely defended USA Eastern sector.

    Agreed Akula could over come the SOSUS net in peace time and is also agreed by Western authors like Norman Polmar.

    As far as being undetectable in Eastern Sector thats debatable recently two Akula was detected in US eastern waters and was tracked till she went to canada and then it dissapeared , one was reportedly the Gepard. Oscars 2 have been sucessfuly tracked by US.

    Like i said Russia reached Improved LA class acoustic quitening may be even have bettered it at slow speed , but US went much ahead with Sea Wolf and Virginia and retains acoustic quitening advantage.



    This can aid you to realise the very unwise and nearsighted choice ,by part of USA, to put all its eggs in the acoustic department when Soviets ,conversely, with a more holistic approach, had gained primacy in almost any other segment of subamrine technology, each of which capable to offset or also surpass any possible advantage in the acoustic department and in ways much more difficult to neutralise.

    Agreed in some respect Soviets/Russian have explored with many designs , played with metals like titanium and have more deep going submarine and fast going one and also has good deal of work in acoustic quitening.

    But US submarine have retained quietening advantage and they have advantage as far as sonar performance goes due to their advantage in Digital Signal processing and electronics.


    Russian Navy consider ,at today, to have not only reached but surpassed the USA submarines (as already foreseen by N.Polmar more than 15 yeas ago) also in this last technological niche -quieting- with Yasen and that this primacy will be widened with Kazan (at least until a new generation of American submarines will see the light).

    Yes I have Norman book "Cold War Submarines: The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines, 1945-2001" and it has good details on US and Russian submarine development.

    Actually the prediction of Norman Polmar is based on fact that Soviet would have 4th gen Submarine Yasen by early 90's but due to break up of Soviet SSN development lagged for 2 decades and hence US continued to retain advantage.

    Norman Polmar says with 4th Gen submarine Yasen Russian will match up with US acoustic level that came with Sea Wolf and Virginia. So Yasen will not widen any acoustic advantage but will just match up to US.

    Here is US Navy Office of Naval Intelligence ( ONI ) estimate on Submarine Noise Level , this is the only official report that we would ever here on the other wise very classified subject.

    The latest one compares Russian Submarine Noise level with Chinese Nuclear Submarine , Shows how much chinese lag



    and slightly older ONI comparision with Russian and US SSN , Note the quitenining achieved with Sea Wolf and Virginia is quite drastic compared to USN LA class SSN


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:54 pm

    Also check this article

    China's Noisy New Boomer

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:48 pm



    Austin i image that will interest you to know that this chart,






    was produced for journalists by US Navy in conjunction with a declaration of the then US director of Naval Intelligence Rear Admiral Edward D.Sheafer in 1993....1 9 9 3.... and when this carth was shown to a senior designer of malachite bureau it responded with a laugh saying :

    "Why do you assume that we would make no progress in this field in the decade between theirs design ? "

    Already at the time an US Intelligence analysts admited that from data in its possession in some acoustics regimes Severodvinsk would have been at least as quiet as the American Sea Wolf ,but not "across the whole board", naturally since 1993 the design has been modified and optimized to host the up-to-date technical solutions which became disposable in the over 13 years elapsed ; to the contrary USA design not only remained just that of those years (with submarine design frozen by thye idea that URSS collapse would have effectively blocked the development of a Russian 4th generation submarine for at least 25-30 years ) but them was forced to opt for the simplified Virginia over the superior Sea Wolf for the problems linked to prohibitive costs and manifacture.



    But with due respect would have to defer on your conclusion that USSR submarine were superior to NATO/US on acoustic quietening.

    But that is not what i have said . What i have said is that USA puted all its egg in the acoustic departement of submarine technolgy with the result that,progressively,it becomed the unique sector of western primacy against Soviet designs (if you want i can explain what are the enormous operational advantages produced by all the other parameters and features of a submarine , elements not surprisingly keep under total silence in majority of western publications of the sector).
    At half of '80 years even this last "bastion" of western technical primacy -quieting- was shattered and only the vertical diving number of constructed submarines in Russian shipyards prevented the scenario foreseen by John J. Engelhardt on Soviet submarines bound to surpass US ones under a qualitative and quantitative standpoint.




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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:05 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:"Why do you assume that we would make no progress in this field in the decade between theirs design ? "

    Yes I know Malachite said that to Norman Polmar when he visited Russia its there in the book I mentioned above.

    But i am not stating that progress was not made , it was made in the sense that Akula-2 surpassed Improved LA at slow speed or tactical speed but see US has not remained static it has moved to Sea Wolf and then to Virginia .......that was my point ...the russian lagged behind the US even with Akula. Considering the number of Improved LA , SeaWolf and Virginia operational and consider the number of Akula-1/2 operational and you get your answer.

    Already at the time an US Intelligence analysts admited that from data in its possession in some acoustics regimes Severodvinsk would have been at least as quiet as the American Sea Wolf ,but not "across the whole board", naturally since 1993 the design has been modified and optimized to host the up-to-date technical solutions which became disposable in the over 13 years elapsed ; to the contrary USA design not only remained just that of those years (with submarine design frozen by thye idea that URSS collapse would have effectively blocked the development of a Russian 4th generation submarine for at least 25-30 years ) but them was forced to opt for the simplified Virginia over the superior Sea Wolf for the problems linked to prohibitive costs and manifacture.

    Well US intelligence is not homogenous and each dept have their own views ....there is no doubt that Yasen will be as quiter as Sea Wolf and we will have too see when she starts her patrol and US Intel gathers more data on acoustic quitening of Yasen and what they think before that its all theoretical.

    Virginia is as quite as Sea Wolf but not more , Virginia is built for Litorral Operation compared to US Sea Wolf designed to hunt USSR SSBN in the Arctic ....Sea Wolf carried more number of weapons about 50 torpedoes , but Virginia is not inferior to Sea Wolf Acoustically.

    Sea Wolf was cancelled because the Deep Water threats of Soviet Dissapeared after 1992 and USN was more concerned with Litorral operation and threat from Silent Conventional Submarine and Special ops , intelligence gathering etc.



    But that is not what i have said . What i have said is that USA puted all its egg in the acoustic departement of submarine technolgy with the result that,progressively,it becomed the unique sector of western primacy against Soviet designs (if you want i can explain what are the enormous operational advantages produced by all the other parameters and features of a submarine , elements not surprisingly keep under total silence in majority of western publications of the sector).

    Yes I agree US put too much emphasis on Acoustic , that is because the chief architect of USN Submarine Program Adm Rickover believed Acoustic was every thing and their designer strived to achieve just that.

    USSR capability was more broad based because they had competing design bureau and they had many design and ideas to play with , but when it comes to acoustic and quitening US retained a good advantage atleast it mid 80.

    At half of '80 years even this last "bastion" of western technical primacy -quieting- was shattered and only the vertical diving number of constructed submarines in Russian shipyards prevented the scenario foreseen by John J. Engelhardt on Soviet submarines bound to surpass US ones under a qualitative and quantitative standpoint.

    Yes it was broken with Victor 3 and Akula where narrow band tonals was drastically reduced and noise level were comparable to LA class but US retained it advantage back with Sea Wolf and Virginia.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:14 pm

    I suspect Severodvinsk will do more than just catch up to Virginia Wink .
    American insistence that it took the latest 971s to catch up with the LA also always struck as me as wishful thinking at best.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  George1 on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:40 pm

    What about Sierra class noise level?

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:44 pm

    Sierra was the high cost submarine vs the Akula, which was made of cheaper materials.

    Sierra is made of Ti.

    I would add that the chart above is estimates and assessments by the US Navy, as as we have seen in Iraq and Iran the US Intel often has an agenda.

    I rather expect they want to prove it has all been money well spent.

    The fact that the Sev is shown before the year 2000 line, yet as far as I know it didn't hit the water till September 2011 shows this is all US Navy speculation and estimates...

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:36 am

    The fact that the Sev is shown before the year 2000 line, yet as far as I know it didn't hit the water till September 2011 shows this is all US Navy speculation and estimates...

    GarryB the book from which it has been taken refer to '90 years estimations by part of ....US Navy and ,obviously, here the degree of bias expected is not different than that expected examining a chart produced by EADS including the characteristics of one of its products and some linked....supposedly....to products of its main competitors Very Happy

    What would is much more interesting is to note how that "mindset" ,strongly present in western publications , has as effect to concentrate all the attention and debates on the quietness parameter (ex : if a particular Soviets or Russian submarine have achieved, in a certain year ,a particular level of quietness inferior ,comparable or superior than a particular western submarine ) in this way preventing anyone to note that exist several dozen of different cardinal parameters ,some of them even more decisive in acquiring a greater exchange ratio or a better operational efficiency in a great scale war ,completely obscured by that very "selective" treatment and that those great quantity of parameters are...strangely Laughing ....just those wherein western design lagged largely behind Soviets Rolling Eyes


    At this point someone could ask to itself ,only for formulate some easy samples : how much submarines are required to engage an enemy submarine enjoying a substantial speed advantage over them ; or how much times is increased the search area for ASW units (both sea or air based) sent in the area to investigate a possible sonobuoy contact with a similar fast submarine ,how that diminish of several dozen of times the chance of a successful interception and multiply of an equal measure the resources and the assets necessary for the task ; or how much decrease the engagement footprint of enemy torpedos against a similar submarine following an evasion rout (and what type of weapons become totally incapable to engage a similar submarine at particular deepness ); or how is easier for similar faster submarine to achieve local superior concentration in respect to slower opponents ; or how is easy for a similar submarine to reach a particular strategic point of interest ,carry out its mission, and eveade even before opponent's submarines/ASW units can arrive in the place.

    I could go on for days and have taken into examination only the speed parameter.


    We can,now, take into examination a submarine attempting to shadow or chasing to engage an enemy submarine and try to argue what wouldhappen if the latter is capable to release ,almost at will, a vehicle ,programmable on the fly (such as an MG-74),capable to mimic exactly the acoustic track of the submarine's propulsion at its regime at the instant of the release while contextually moving at very low speed long a tangential trajectory to obtain an easy shoot on any submarine eventually chasing it ,or it could ,to the contrary, continue long its original rout increasing momentarily the speed at maximum to cover completely the release contemporaneously of an MG-74 simulating a false slowdown and an U-turn and a PMK-1 self propelled mine , or ,even worse release, a pair of MG-74 with different programs covering the release of both an PMK-1 self propelled mine and a self propelled RG-28 capable to simulate perfectly a coded pulse of the active sonar of the carrying submarine...also here the possible combinations ,one more deadly and deceiving of the previous are almost infinites.
    Anyone can easily realize also as,in war times,the surving chances of a chasing/engaging submarine against an enemy submarine equiped with similar systems (without any corresponding in the acoustic centric western designs) would be very very slim .

    What happen if we take into account that a submarine ,even in a condition of heavy numerical disadvantage in a particualr area could quietly employg its active sonar (against which the quieting measures implemented in a submarine design have zero value) knowing that a single allied submarine ,completely safe at 100-120 km from the enemy ,receiving the target coordinates through MGK-80 or Molniya-M, could engage all of them at supersonic speed with a salvo of RPK-7 and obtain theirs destruction much before the first torpedo would even be at half way toward the original submarine....or it could be simply another trap employing the MG-74 and the RG-28 (practically those enemy submarines would never know,after this active sonar contact if a salvo of "Stallions" is already in fly toward them ,it is a trap for lure them in a PMK-1 infested area or in a shot position where the enemy could dispatch them quickly with supercavitating torpedos or even a bait to waste precious ASW aircraft and ship for the control a completely empty area.



    All what said until now represent only a minimal fraction of the enormous operational advantages and solutions offered by merely two of those non-acoustic capabilities where Soviets/Russians enjoy a very wide primacy .





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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:56 am

    TR1 wrote:I suspect Severodvinsk will do more than just catch up to Virginia Wink .

    Yasen is certainly superior in firepower,perhaps even depth and non-acoustic sensor where russians have a lead ....... it will according to most credible western sources catch up with Virginia in acoustic .....again let me add here most of these are estimates and actual performance will be seen when she goes on her patrol and we will hear more on it from ONI or Western press.

    American insistence that it took the latest 971s to catch up with the LA also always struck as me as wishful thinking at best.

    Not really 971 but late model Victor 3 SSN which also was the first to employ the initial SOKS ....Victor 3 drastically eliminated narrow band tonals which made long range detection and tracking of Russian sub impossible by NATO.....Akula eliminated those even further and had better Sonar,Sensors and Hydrodynamics and yes SOKS.

    But LA class are initial LA and then improved LA , the late model Akula-2 caught up or even superseded improved LA in acoustic quitening at slower speed.

    If you read the book "Rising Tide: The Untold Story of the Russian Submarines That Fought the Cold War" which details Russian account of Silent War and not Western Account that we are so used to.

    There was an incident where the late model Victor-3 detecting and tracking a new LA class submarine using just non-acoustic sensor and at the end of trail she active pings the LA and moves on.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:58 am

    TR1 and Mindstorm ,have you come across news in Russian press of any Russian modern SSN sucessfully tracking a Virginia or Sea Wolf class SSN , I have yet to come across such reports till date.

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