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    Project 971: Akula class

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    GarryB
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:55 pm

    AFAIK only Medvedka and Klub and both use the smaller torpedo... which BTW is sufficient for any western submarine.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK only Medvedka and Klub and both use the smaller torpedo... which BTW is sufficient for any western submarine.

    My point related to 533 mm Torpedo for SS-N-16 like weapon was not related to its warhead size which is sufficient which i agree but compared to 350 mm weapon a 533 mm weapon would have bigger sensors and can have better processing capability to sniff out silent submarine plus it would afford longer range and higher speed compared to smaller weapon.

    Some interesting Torpedo development that can be worth considering are the Black Shark and F21 both are 522 mm weapon

    Check it out

    Black Shark http://www.wass.it/WASSWEB/brochure/black_shark.pdf
    F21 http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=dti&id=news/dti/2011/02/01/DT_02_01_2011_p20-283026.xml


    GarryB
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:26 am

    No 533mm torpedo can move as fast through water or as "silently" as a rocket travelling through the air.

    It makes rather more sense to use a smaller torpedo and simply try to drop it closer to the target.

    The problem is that a 21 inch torpedo is already very large and heavy so a rocket stage needed to carry that 50km or more will mean it will be rather long and heavy and a bit larger calibre than the original torpedo.

    If they still used their 650mm torpedo tubes then it would be a good option for their Subs but I don't think they are continuing to use them in their new vessels.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Sat May 05, 2012 6:30 am

    Garry from what we could see in Club class weapon , the rocket torpedo has been standardised with 533 mm Rocket Torpedo carrying 350 mm Torpedo , which is good.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Sat May 05, 2012 6:46 am

    Didnt realise upload quality of Akula article was bad , here are better uploads


    Akula-1 http://www.mediafire.com/file/x4i2534wrh0n2up/Akula-1.zip

    Akula-2 http://www.mediafire.com/file/g51jihx5giujag1/Akula-2.zip

    Stealthflanker
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:25 am

    Austin wrote:Didnt realise upload quality of Akula article was bad , here are better uploads


    Akula-1 http://www.mediafire.com/file/x4i2534wrh0n2up/Akula-1.zip

    Akula-2 http://www.mediafire.com/file/g51jihx5giujag1/Akula-2.zip

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    Mindstorm
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:42 pm


    "Russian attack submarine sailed in Gulf of Mexico undetected for weeks, U.S. officials say"


    [url=http://freebeacon.com/silent-running/ ]http://freebeacon.com/silent-running/ [/url]

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:50 pm

    Interesting news , Any idea how did they manage to then know after a month of being undetected that she was there for weeks undetected.

    I suspect this leak also has to do with Naval cuts on the anvil due to automatic $ 1 trillion across the board defence cut planned , they are saying look we cannot detect the sub and you are cutting fund it will get more worse.

    With a good crew , training and bit of luck Akula can fight its way if required it really a good submarine.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:51 am

    ASW is incredibly expensive and requires a lot of very specialist skills to actually be effective as well.

    They will know it has been there for weeks because they probably tracked it leaving port on the surface and probably could guess what its likely mission was... especially if its mission included listening to certain activities and probing defences.

    Needless to say you have a few sensors detect a presence of "something" and then you detect a presence of "something" somewhere else a few days or weeks later, and then finally after a couple of weeks you bump into a Bars sub it is not rocket science to put two and two together... especially given the scrutiny of the Russian fleet... their exits and returns to port... if there are only three or four Bars subs on patrol and one is in the Indian ocean and two are somewhere else but you can't account for the other one...

    Of course it is one thing for this sort of thing to happen, it is another to release this information to the public.

    I rather suspect the reason for releasing this information was to save their budgets from cuts, or in fact get increases of funding.

    Trillions are spent on making subs quiet... if that wasn't effective then they wouldn't bother.

    I would suspect it was true because the consequences of being caught lying in an attempt to get extra funding would be rather worse than saying nothing at all and losing the funding.... ie higher ups would lose their cushy well paid jobs which is what they really care about.


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:49 am

    I agree these leaks are more to make sure the budget cuts dont affect the Navy and Akula is the bogey man.

    I am sure there would be quite a few Virginia off Russian coast that go undetected or gets detected but the Russian Navy dont go to press about it.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:55 am

    And nor would they release such information.

    The most important information you can have is what information the enemy has about you.

    The Military doesn't spend money for fun.

    A good example is tank gun ammo. There is no prize for having the most powerful tank ammo. Developing ammo and deploying it costs money so your ammo is generally designed to penetrate your primary enemies tank frontal armour from 2,000m most of the time.
    The job of the people building your tank is to make sure that your tanks frontal armour will stop the enemies best tank round and most of his missiles within reason.

    The US will not bother to develop armour for the Abrams that will stop the 317kg shaped charge warhead of the Kh-29 family of medium missiles because no level of mobile armour will help... these missiles are designed to undermine the concrete foundations of bridges and other heavy structures so no level of tank armour will be good enough.

    The point is that if the US had never learned about the performance of several ERAs the Soviets and Russians have developed they would not have developed the higher penetration rounds that they have because there would have been no requirement.

    Equally the Russians, if they had money during the 1990s would have already had longer rod penetrators in service as they were needed. They have developed a larger calibre gun to allow for future armour protection increases in western tanks but have decided there is room for further growth with 125mm rounds that will make it effective for the foreseeable future.

    Improving ammo is not cheap... it is actually quite expensive and includes production of enough rounds to get it into service in significant numbers to make the cost worth it, but it is still cheaper than introducing a new calibre.

    A new larger calibre would make guided rounds and HEAT rounds more effective.

    In other words what I am saying if the Russians can detect and track new US subs it is not in their interests for the US to know that because it might be some trick they are using that could easily be defeated.

    I remember one time reading about a western force that transmitted IFF signals to enemy aircraft back when IFF systems were new. They could use the IFF responses to detect the aircraft type and location without using radar. IFF systems got more sophisticated and only started responding to specific signals... but you see what I mean about sneaky tricks?


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:59 am


    Interesting news , Any idea how did they manage to then know after a month of being undetected that she was there for weeks undetected.

    In the same way similar events happened in the last 40 years obviously also at inverted sides :

    - A first brief contact ,usually at very high depth for Russian attack submarines, (not useful at prevent that submarine from sliping outside the surveying rings that are promptly put around the contact point to track it) providing a general vector of the enemy submarine unity.

    - Few even more brief, not "profitable" contacts (usually resonant, near isotropic ones, in close littoral areas) long the entire period of stationing of the intruding submarine in its area of operation.

    - A stable contact ,usually with the enemy submarine intentionally surfacing for few minutes , when this unity leave its area of operation.


    Therefore is important to point out that when a NATO or Russian Navy official say that an enemy submarine has operated ,in a specific area of theirs competence, for a certain time window and undetected it refer to situations where the few data coming from theirs sensors echelons, in that time frame ,turned out as absolutely insufficient to provide a positional coordinate useful at execute an eventual engagement of the enemy submarine.


    Intentionally lying for any reason to the Central Command on a similar strategically critical and complex detection process of enemy boomers and attack submarines is not only a very serious purpose but also an incredibly difficult one because it would require to erase and/or warp data coming from an incredibly high number of different assets Sea, Undersea, Air and Space-based pertaining to different Armed Forces branch and thousands of operatives.


    Naturally all of that (in particular from Russian POV) remain true only within a strictly conventional conflict scenario..... Wink


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:30 pm

    Interesting that is also possible Mindstorm.

    If Akula-2 can evade USN modern submarine of 4th Gen and can operate for weeks in US backyard then it is really a good compliment for the skills of crew and submarine.

    I am sure USN submarine might be operating in Russian backyard , do Russian Navy has any time went public with such data ?

    The Akula class will be undergoing modernisation soon it is reffered to as 971M class ( the M perhaps stands for modernised ) though details are not known but what is certain is they will acquire Kalbir and new class of torpedoes and Perhaps better sensors and quitening.

    Can you tell us if this article in Russian has any interesting details on Yasen class ? Thanks

    Pr 885 Yasen

    Yasen-1
    Yasen-2
    Yasen-3


    Not sure what it says but looks interesting

    TR1
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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  TR1 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:06 pm

    Would be nice to get a head count of all Bars boats in service, and check if any were actually deployed during the time.
    Easy way to see if this is indeed internal consumption.

    EDIT: Austin, will xlate anything interesting later today, busy @ the moment.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:07 am

    This site says
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-273.html

    The Nerpa is an Improved Akula 971U and not an Akula-2

    So what the IN has is an improved Akula and not an Akula-2 as indian media puts it ?

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:22 am

    Given its date of completion I would not doubt it is at least as modern as Akula-2, save export regulated stuff.
    From what I have read even classifying the class into Akula 1 and 2 is inaccurate, since the Bars received updates with almost every new boat.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:22 pm

    From what I have read even classifying the class into Akula 1 and 2 is inaccurate, since the Bars received updates with almost every new boat.

    Like the joke about the Tu-160... they were built during a period of improvement so each aircraft got something that was better than the previous aircraft had... they said no two aircraft were the same.

    Part of the Tu-160M upgrade they are going to receive it to make them all the same and upgrade them all to a new level.

    Hopefully they will develop a midlife upgrade for the Akulas based on the Yasen Ms stuff hopefully, as that will mean more commonality of weapons and sensors.

    Obviously the Yasen M has its torpedo tubes moved to amidships so the large frontal array sonar will be too big to retro fit into older SSNs, but a scaled down slightly cheaper model might be useful.


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:29 pm

    Well there are two critical things that Indian Akula lack.

    One is the non-acoustic sensors SOKS
    Another is the tube above torpedo tube for decoys.
    They dont have 650 mm TT but only 8 533 mm tubes.

    All in All there are differences , I am not sure if there are actually Akula-2 class.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:18 am

    The first Akula to undergo modernisation to 971M standard is the Leopard

    http://www.vdvsn.ru/novosti/korabelnaya_storona/pervym_prishel_leopard/

    In short, the modernization will be a major - a new project to 971M. In carrying out these works will be used to achieve the latest academic and applied science, including overseas. Complex systems of communication, navigation, speakers and other modern means of communication, set on a ship, a number of parameters exceed even those that are installed on the fourth-generation nuclear submarines.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  coolieno99 on Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:54 am

    Despite its large size, the Akula-class sub is very stealthy.

    Russian attack submarine sailed in Gulf of Mexico undetected for weeks, U.S. officials say

    BY: Bill Gertz
    August 14, 2012 5:00 am

    A Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine armed with long-range cruise missiles operated undetected in the Gulf of Mexico for several weeks and its travel in strategic U.S. waters was only confirmed after it left the region, the Washington Free Beacon has learned.

    It is only the second time since 2009 that a Russian attack submarine has patrolled so close to U.S. shores.

    The stealth underwater incursion in the Gulf took place at the same time Russian strategic bombers made incursions into restricted U.S. airspace near Alaska and California in June and July, and highlights a growing military assertiveness by Moscow.

    The submarine patrol also exposed what U.S. officials said were deficiencies in U.S. anti-submarine warfare capabilities—forces that are facing cuts under the Obama administration’s plan to reduce defense spending by $487 billion over the next 10 years.

    The Navy is in charge of detecting submarines, especially those that sail near U.S. nuclear missile submarines, and uses undersea sensors and satellites to locate and track them.

    The fact that the Akula was not detected in the Gulf is cause for concern, U.S. officials said.

    The officials who are familiar with reports of the submarine patrol in the Gulf of Mexico said the vessel was a nuclear-powered Akula-class attack submarine, one of Russia’s quietest submarines.

    A Navy spokeswoman declined to comment.

    One official said the Akula operated without being detected for a month.

    “The Akula was built for one reason and one reason only: To kill U.S. Navy ballistic missile submarines and their crews,” said a second U.S. official.

    “It’s a very stealthy boat so it can sneak around and avoid detection and hope to get past any protective screen a boomer might have in place,” the official said, referring to the Navy nickname for strategic missile submarines. .....

    http://freebeacon.com/silent-running/

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:36 am

    They have recently made statements to the effect that this story is not true.

    It was probably Republican propaganda to try to yet again discredit Obama... it happened on his watch, and the US is looking at budget cutting and ASW stuff is the most expensive stuff in warfare.

    Also note that this is a western source so they are not actually talking about the Akula class, which is actually called Typhoon SSBN by NATO. They are talking about either the Shuka class or the Bars class SSN which is called Akula or Shark by NATO.


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:51 pm

    Excellent. This will alleviate pressure to get 885 numbers up.

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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:53 pm

    It's called Bars dammit!


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Austin on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:35 am

    Nerpa/INS Chakra

    Note the 8x533 TT and the Close up of Screws

    Chakra 8x533 mm Torpedo Tubes
    Screws/Props
    TAS POD
    Chakra Silhouette
    Floating Dock
    Sail Close Up
    Chakra Sail/Bow
    TAS Pod Closeup
    INS Chakra


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    Re: Project 971: Akula class

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:13 pm

    Thanks for lots of valuable imagery up there Austin. Very Happy

    oh BTW did this Nerpa is capable of launching KLUB missiles ?

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