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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:16 pm

    F-15 doesn't hold a candle to Su-30 or 35 in dog fighting. Let alone against an Su-27.

    Guys, seriously, give up on this. Complaining here of the drivel from US is a pointless endeavor.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:55 am

    miketheterrible wrote:F-15 doesn't hold a candle to Su-30 or 35 in dog fighting. Let alone against an Su-27.

    Guys, seriously, give up on this. Complaining here of the drivel from US is a pointless endeavor.

    Yeah.

    The point of these posts was to remind ppl of who's behind some of the news headlines or narratives that go around about the su 57. Its annoying frankly when someone actually falls for it or takes the propagandized narrative and gives it legit time. Vladimir Gutenev's statement for example. It was good that his statement was hashed out here and everything, but we didn't need to see the spun version.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:18 pm

    Why did Russia feel the need to make such a definitive statement about the production of the su 57 ?

    Why not just do a China and and just say nothing ?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:50 pm

    Pierre Sprey wrote:Why did Russia feel the need to make such a definitive statement about the production of the su 57 ?

    Why not just do a China and and just say nothing ?

    Because their political and industrial establishment is exclusively staffed with morons with chronic inferiority complex (eg: Trampoline Man)

    When it comes to this category there definitely is no foreign analogue in existence... Cool
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 pm

    Chinese news always do the same - get an expert that will say this or that. But ultimately, ignoring the foreign idiots is best. Something Russia needs to do.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:37 pm

    The analysis of the test planes correct, those are not really stealth.

    The first f35 was as complete as possible, the su57 prototypes was partially finished, and completed for different testing .

    I think the stealth test prototype never was meant to fly.

    This is a different design manufacturing methodology.

    The Lockheed tried to finish as much detail/sub part of the f35as soon as possible, and to spend the development money as fast as possible.

    It means that any later defect, customer modification is extremely expensive OR impossible.

    Every su57 proto is just finished to the level to test the given function.

    See the difference?

    The su47 development cost curve is quite flat, the f35 was step, and EXPENSIVE.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:46 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:The analysis of the test planes correct, those are not really stealth.

    The first f35 was as complete as possible, the su57 prototypes was partially finished, and completed for different testing .

    I think the stealth test prototype never was meant to fly.

    This is a different design  manufacturing methodology.

    The Lockheed tried to finish as much detail/sub part of the f35as soon as possible, and to  spend the development money as fast as possible.

    It means that any later defect, customer modification is extremely expensive OR impossible.

    Every su57 proto is just finished to the level to test the given function.

    See the difference?

    The su47 development cost curve is quite flat, the f35 was step, and EXPENSIVE.

    Is this more adjudication of the statement from Vladimir Gutenev ?

    It sounds like you are answering to the propagandist narrative. We don't need that shit here.

    I finally got banned from Key Publishing forum. I wanted out to get away from bullshit like this
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    kvs

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:09 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:Why did Russia feel the need to make such a definitive statement about the production of the su 57 ?

    Why not just do a China and and just say nothing ?

    Do not take any statement by Russian talking heads as the final word. Too many in these threads lap up this excrement with
    relish (I guess these statements satisfy their inner desires). Keeping the enemy ignorant of your true plans is one of the
    oldest fundamentals of warfare.

    Then we have the tabloid style of the Russian media. This results from the Yeltsin era gangster capitalism and media whoring
    for pay. Those days are over but bad habits die hard. So you see the hysterical pronouncements about this and that, day
    in and day out. All of it is BS.

    If Putin says something is cancelled, then that is serious news. Yapping by assorted faceless minions means precisely f*ck all.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:07 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:The analysis of the test planes correct, those are not really stealth.

    The first f35 was as complete as possible, the su57 prototypes was partially finished, and completed for different testing .

    I think the stealth test prototype never was meant to fly.

    This is a different design  manufacturing methodology.

    The Lockheed tried to finish as much detail/sub part of the f35as soon as possible, and to  spend the development money as fast as possible.

    It means that any later defect, customer modification is extremely expensive OR impossible.

    Every su57 proto is just finished to the level to test the given function.

    See the difference?

    The su47 development cost curve is quite flat, the f35 was step, and EXPENSIVE.

    Is this more adjudication of the statement from Vladimir Gutenev ?

    It sounds like you are answering to the propagandist narrative. We don't need that shit here.

    I finally got banned from Key Publishing forum. I wanted out to get away from bullshit like this

    So what exactly did this Vladimir Gutenev say?
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Hole on Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:10 am

    Who cares? This is one guy from the industry. Not from the military. He just lobbies for more money.
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    kvs

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:59 pm

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-11/meet-air-forces-1200-cup-coffee

    For now, Russia does not have to pay a stratospheric corruption premium for its military hardware.   It can afford the Su-57 and
    the T-14.   That does not stop the defense contractors from trying to skew the system like their counterparts in America
    and rape the taxpayer.  

    It would be a good idea for the Russian government to ban all public lobbying for the defense industry.    It is nothing more
    than the propagation of corruption and not freedom of speech.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:15 pm

    Hole wrote:Who cares? This is one guy from the industry. Not from the military. He just lobbies for more money.

    No, I'm getting rather sick of hearing you retards talk about some fuck with a name but not even mention what he said.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:00 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Hole wrote:Who cares? This is one guy from the industry. Not from the military. He just lobbies for more money.

    No, I'm getting rather sick of hearing you retards talk about some fuck with a name but not even mention what he said.

    He said this. And someone translated the wording to mean the opposite in the part where he talks about the F-22 and F-35 in Syria. He said that the su 57 detected F-22 and 35 in Syria. The propagandists translated it to say that the su 57 got detected by the F-22 and 35.

    Moscow. On July 4. Interfax-AVn - Promising fighter Su-57 it is necessary to consider as excellent aircraft with the export potential, but main efforts must be concentrated during the creation of transitional machine, stated on Wednesday “to Interfax-AVN” the head of the commission of the State Duma for the legal guarantee of development of organizations OPK, the first Vice President of the union of the machine builders of RF Vladimir Gutenev.

    “I assume that the fighter of the sixth generation will be the transitional machine between the aircraft, still controlled by man, and in the pilotless intellectual impact complexes (BIUK) - in this case we speak about air BIUK, which can because of their intellect carry out stated problems by the, including sufficiently concentrated groups”, he said, commenting on the statement of the Vice-Premier of Russian Federation of Yuri Borisov, that mass deliveries in VKS of Russia the fighters of the fifth generation Su-57 within the next few years it will not be.

    “I am to a considerable degree solidary with the words Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov) apropos of the fact that hardly is worth expecting the concentrated purchases Su-57”, noted V. Gutenev. “With the undoubted merits of this machine we, it is certain, we understand, that the start to program was daN still in 2001, and the implementation of program on a whole series of objective reasons was tightened (originally it was planned in 2006 - 2007 to conduct flight tests, and since 2014 already to supply the troops), in connection with the very dynamic development of technologies - this concerns the systems of electroninc warfare, and new composite materials, and the new opportunities, which allow additive technologies from the point of view of the design reduction of prices of machines”, it established.

    “Well, and certainly, this is connected with the fact that we possess the very perfect machines - this Su-34 and Su-35, which themselves appeared well”, noted V. Gutenev. “Up to 2023-2024 on Su-57 is not assumed installation of the motor of the second stage, whose tests only began, this - “article 30”, and without looking at the fact that our machine is considerably cheaper (according to my estimations, 2.5 times, than the foreign analogs of the 5th generation), but nevertheless it considerably more expensive requires thinner services in comparison with Su-34 and Su-35”, added V. Gutenev.

    “Therefore I am solidary with the opinion Yuri Ivanovich (Borisov), according to whom we already have an experience, when because of the reasonable technical policy actually they jumped over through the generation, to a considerable degree economizing budget”, he said. “We for sure could within the framework of a short term stay in February of this year our machines Su-57 in Syria refine a number of the possible and associated data according to the ability F-22 and F-35 on the detection of our aircraft - telemetry gave essential occasion for their improvement”, noted V. Gutenev.


    Basically the propagandists told everyone that the su 57 was detected in Syria. And that's why they are producing just 12 which means the program is a failure.

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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:02 pm

    So we have an article now from Military Watch magazine that references the Vladimir Gutenev statement and obviously , like we already knew, the interpretation by the sophists is complete trash.

    http://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/70750

    Quoted from the article:

    - The Su-57 program is very much a sixth generation air superiority fighter program, one which at early stages can serve as a high end fifth generation aircraft comparable to the American Raptor - as in the case of the 12 initial production production variants ordered by the Air Force, but ultimately the Russian military began the program with a greater end in mind.

    -The end goal of the Su-57 is to be able to go head to head with the American sixth generation air superiority fighter currently being developed to replace the Raptor under the F/A-XX next generation air dominance fighter.

    -Further enhancements to electronic warfare capabilities and radar jamming, stealth, next generation engines, the use of hypersonic and energy weapons and the deployment of defensive missile blinding lasers are among the systems which a completed sixth generation variant of the Su-57 is likely to deploy.

    -Unlike the Su-57, the F-22 is a purely fifth generation fighter and has seen little invested in its modernization.

    -Russia doesn’t need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.


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    kvs

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:00 pm

    So we have social media fake news. What a surprise.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:25 pm

    Pierre Sprey wrote:He said this. And someone translated the wording to mean the opposite in the part where he talks about the F-22 and F-35 in Syria. He said that the su 57 detected F-22 and 35 in Syria. The propagandists translated it to say that the su 57 got detected by the F-22 and 35.

    Moscow. On July 4. Interfax-AVn - Promising fighter Su-57 it is necessary to consider as excellent aircraft with the export potential, but main efforts must be concentrated during the creation of transitional machine, stated on Wednesday “to Interfax-AVN” the head of the commission of the State Duma for the legal guarantee of development of organizations OPK, the first Vice President of the union of the machine builders of RF Vladimir Gutenev.

    “I assume that the fighter of the sixth generation will be the transitional machine between the aircraft, still controlled by man, and in the pilotless intellectual impact complexes (BIUK) - in this case we speak about air BIUK, which can because of their intellect carry out stated problems by the, including sufficiently concentrated groups”, he said, commenting on the statement of the Vice-Premier of Russian Federation of Yuri Borisov, that mass deliveries in VKS of Russia the fighters of the fifth generation Su-57 within the next few years it will not be.



    Basically the propagandists told everyone that the su 57 was detected in Syria. And that's why they are producing just 12  which means the program is a failure.

    From what i have gathered this Vladimir Gutenev is just some politician, but the mention of Yuri Borisov raises some eye brows.
    Yes, he was the one that announced Russia's S/VTOVL carrier ambitions, to the horror of many.
    Overall, this is a politician quoting someone else, not very reliable info, unless Borisov himself confirms, if that happens, then we know Russia is entering another Serdyukov era.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:31 pm

    Man many of you are stupid. Another serdyukov era? Do you even know what Serdyukov even did? Or are you just throwing names around to pretend to look smart?

    Nothing of the sort, anything of being said or done with PAK FA has anything to do with Serdyukov's corruption and his purchasing of Western weapons....

    I highly suggest we stop talking about this already. A deputy in the Duma doesn't make a lick of decisions for military. It's best to ignore and stop turning this thread into shit.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:42 pm

    The fighter isn't finished and they already ordered 12 of them. That's a good start.

    Those 6th generation unmaned fighters stories are bullshit. Russia proved itself any drone can be hacked or jamed or destroyed easily. Most of them carry simple weapons, let alone make them smart enough to take real time decisions in a dogfight or a bvr engagement. Maybe in 50 years but not anytime soon.

    US with f-35 are not better at all. They oblige all their dogs allies to buy it probably 200 million $ each with future system upgrade because they are still full of mistakes.

    If the 12 su-57 are good for RuAF they should stop su 30/35production and go full su-57 instead and also oblige its allies to buy them just like USA.

    They should even sell 200 to china to see Indian and US reactions. They spend their time saying it's a bad system. They would be happy to face it if it is that bad.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:57 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Man many of you are stupid. Another serdyukov era? Do you even know what Serdyukov even did? Or are you just throwing names around to pretend to look smart?

    Nothing of the sort, anything of being said or done with PAK FA has anything to do with Serdyukov's corruption and his purchasing of Western weapons....

    I highly suggest we stop talking about this already. A deputy in the Duma doesn't make a lick of decisions for military. It's best to ignore and stop turning this thread into shit.

    What else would you call an era of cuts across the board?

    As far as i see, Serdyukov was doing 2 things, buying from the West and making cuts all over the place.

    No doubt, but the Deputy Minister of Defence does have a say in military affairs, did he or did he not make such a statement?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:00 pm

    No, he doesn't supercede Borisov. He says his two bit but ultimately it's up to Borisov.

    Plus there isn't cuts numbnuts. Money has been placed since 2011.
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    franco

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  franco on Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:58 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Man many of you are stupid. Another serdyukov era? Do you even know what Serdyukov even did? Or are you just throwing names around to pretend to look smart?

    Nothing of the sort, anything of being said or done with PAK FA has anything to do with Serdyukov's corruption and his purchasing of Western weapons....

    I highly suggest we stop talking about this already. A deputy in the Duma doesn't make a lick of decisions for military. It's best to ignore and stop turning this thread into shit.

    What else would you call an era of cuts across the board?

    As far as i see, Serdyukov was doing 2 things, buying from the West and making cuts all over the place.

    No doubt, but the Deputy Minister of Defence does have a say in military affairs, did he or did he not make such a statement?

    Yuri Borisov is no longer Deputy Defense Minister but is now deputy Prime Minister in charge of the Russian Defense Industry replacing Rogozin.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:14 pm


    Do you all really need me to tell you that Borisov said that Su-57 program will not be fast-tracked and that they will be sticking with original purchasing schedule (12 hull trial batch, rest of it after tests) which was ''translated'' by some western ''journalist'' as ''Su-57 will not be mass produced''?
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:44 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Do you all really need me to tell you that Borisov said that Su-57 program will not be fast-tracked and that they will be sticking with original purchasing schedule (12 hull trial batch, rest of it after tests) which was ''translated'' by some western ''journalist'' as ''Su-57 will not be mass produced''?

    It was translated that the program is a failure and no more will ever be produced. And it was never stealth or a 5th gen anyway. And F-15's are more stealth. And some mother--kers at https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?145474-Su-57-News-and-Discussion-version_we_lost_count!/page7 are whipping up even more bullshit and propaganda about it. Now someone is saying that its as big of a failure as India's Tija's program. If anyone has an account there, go post some stuff in the su 57 thread. The war for the su 57 is being waged there.




    Look at the caption under the pic. It says "no more orders are coming"



    Except Russia has already developed its 5th gen stealth jet and its going into production.

    In case you were curious about that IHS Janes hotlink. Here it is :

    Janes360 - Page Not Found!
    404 Error
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:49 am

    So? What's the point of all this?

    Russia ordered fisrt 12 pre production units. And as Austin and Trident pointed out, they we're misquoted.

    If you want to bitch and moan about it, go to keypublishi g forums.

    If Russia cancels Su-57, then either they ha e a very good reason or they have idiots in the procurement section. Nothing else.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:51 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Do you all really need me to tell you that Borisov said that Su-57 program will not be fast-tracked and that they will be sticking with original purchasing schedule (12 hull trial batch, rest of it after tests) which was ''translated'' by some western ''journalist'' as ''Su-57 will not be mass produced''?

    Please. Using logic here won't work. We have a bitch fest about misquoting and assumptions that some people here feel that it's their Civic duty to flood the page about it, but not solve anything.

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