PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

LMFS wrote:
The point was, after talking and talking about the advantages of 5G and putting down Russia for not having them, 4G fighters are still the back bone of the USAF. Meanwhile, Russia is criticized for planning to do exactly the same. F-22 was intended to replace F-15 and ended as little more than a sign of prestige, and therefore, not needed in numbers. So this 5G and above all the stealth myth is rather a PR stunt that has been used to subdue other countries out of fear of being punished with a weapon that could not be countered. Therefore the hysterical reaction when "allied" countries choose the S-400 and the continuous attempts to ridicule the PAK-FA program. The myth of invincibility is going down the drain and with it the American primacy

Yes, and because of this "PR stunt" 1700 F-35 fighter will be produced. Onyl a PR stunt! And the "PR stunt" F-22 was only 200 times produced.

F-22 is a good fighter, in maneuverability much better than F-35. Powerful radar, fast, supercruise etc. But the F-22 was TOOOO expensive and maintainance is a problem, because the F-22 is very sensible (it's not a fighter for desert countries!). So after 200 fighter, more than all Su-35 and Su-30 in RuAF together, they stopped the program. They focused at F-35 now.

For 2018 it's not useful to produce the "old" F-22 because it lacks many features a fighter of the future needs. The F-22 have NO IRST, so against a russian or chinese stealth fighter they will have problems....so in future a problem. There is a successor planned for F-22 by the way.

What piss me really off is the lack of realism in this forum! Most of you are doing exactly what the NATO and US stronkiest are doing....pure BASHING without any touch to reality. I don't write that USA and it's technology is superior and best, but it's defintely no crap! You should all know that your enemy (USA) is not a idiot, beside all their scandals and failures they are still very very powerful.

For Su-57 I'm much more optimistic now, because in the interview there was only a 5th column lobbyist spreading his own conspiracy theories. No official statement was made! And the plan is, first purchase 12 planes with old engines and after new engines are ready go for mass production.

To be sure mass production occur fast I go to church and light up a candle for Su-57!

Azi wrote:Yes, and because of this "PR stunt" 1700 F-35 fighter will be produced. Onyl a PR stunt! And the "PR stunt" F-22 was only 200 times produced.

I perceive that you didn't bother trying to understand the point I was making so be it. If you care looking at the facts:
F-22 original plans called for 750 aircraft to substitute the F-15. Only 183 were produced, which with their availability rates and compared to the needs of a military of global reach is very little. Meanwhile 236 F-15 C/D are in operation (data from 2016) together with 213 F-15E (2014). So what does this tell you? Either the plane was not good enough or US doesn't have enough money and as a result have failed to implement their plans. Have you even noticed that Russia is being put down for using cheap and perfectly capable Su-27SM3, Su-30SM and Su-35S, not rushing to procure the Su-57? So applying the typical western informational warfare double standards, what for the US is perfectly reasonable for Russia means an utter failure and a demonstration of their known shortcomings.

Regarding the F-35, you are right, it goes beyond PR stunt into the category of massive scam. We will see how many of them will be built, but I thought the planed number was close to 3100 and not 1700. The program has done everything to make itself indispensable against all best practices and elementary decency. Nevertheless it has managed to save face only by comparing the characteristics of the product against outdated 4G fighters, by the time other countries deploy their own 5G proposals, the comparisons will be so embarrassing that no amount of pressure and PR will be able to keep the affected military services bound to buy the promised numbers. New alternatives will need to be searched for, following the usual strategy of promising to solve with the next scam the problems caused by the ongoing one. And meanwhile the money keeps flowing into the pockets of the MIC.

F-22 is a good fighter, in maneuverability much better than F-35. Powerful radar, fast, supercruise etc. But the F-22 was TOOOO expensive and maintainance is a problem, because the F-22 is very sensible (it's not a fighter for desert countries!). So after 200 fighter, more than all Su-35 and Su-30 in RuAF together, they stopped the program. They focused at F-35 now.

Nobody saying the F-22 is not a good fighter, at least on paper. But it is a serious issue if it is too expensive or too frail, which is reportedly the case. The needs of American military (which has divided the world in military commands) are not the same of RuAF, so no use in directly comparing numbers.

For 2018 it's not useful to produce the "old" F-22 because it lacks many features a fighter of the future needs. The F-22 have NO IRST, so against a russian or chinese stealth fighter they will have problems....so in future a problem. There is a successor planned for F-22 by the way.

Then update the damn aircraft and keep producing it, as everybody does unless the design is a dead-end street and therefore a failure. Otherwise after cancelling the production, remaining F-22s/F-15s need to be stretched much further than planed or number of squadrons needs to be reduced. And the successor has not even a set of requirements agreed upon so no point in counting on it.

What piss me really off is the lack of realism in this forum! Most of you are doing exactly what the NATO and US stronkiest are doing....pure BASHING without any touch to reality. I don't write that USA and it's technology is superior and best, but it's defintely no crap! You should all know that your enemy (USA) is not a idiot, beside all their scandals and failures they are still very very powerful.

?? I don't know where all this comes from honestly. All I did was to "dare" questioning the PR dimension of 5G / stealth apart from their pure military value. You may probably understand that If you want to police the world it is better to let fear take care than actually having to fight everyone everywhere.

Azi wrote:

LMFS wrote:
The point was, after talking and talking about the advantages of 5G and putting down Russia for not having them, 4G fighters are still the back bone of the USAF. Meanwhile, Russia is criticized for planning to do exactly the same. F-22 was intended to replace F-15 and ended as little more than a sign of prestige, and therefore, not needed in numbers. So this 5G and above all the stealth myth is rather a PR stunt that has been used to subdue other countries out of fear of being punished with a weapon that could not be countered. Therefore the hysterical reaction when "allied" countries choose the S-400 and the continuous attempts to ridicule the PAK-FA program. The myth of invincibility is going down the drain and with it the American primacy

Yes, and because of this "PR stunt" 1700 F-35 fighter will be produced. Onyl a PR stunt! And the "PR stunt" F-22 was only 200 times produced.

F-22 is a good fighter, in maneuverability much better than F-35. Powerful radar, fast, supercruise etc. But the F-22 was TOOOO expensive and maintainance is a problem, because the F-22 is very sensible (it's not a fighter for desert countries!). So after 200 fighter, more than all Su-35 and Su-30 in RuAF together, they stopped the program. They focused at F-35 now.

For 2018 it's not useful to produce the "old" F-22 because it lacks many features a fighter of the future needs. The F-22 have NO IRST, so against a russian or chinese stealth fighter they will have problems....so in future a problem. There is a successor planned for F-22 by the way.

What piss me really off is the lack of realism in this forum! Most of you are doing exactly what the NATO and US stronkiest are doing....pure BASHING without any touch to reality. I don't write that USA and it's technology is superior and best, but it's defintely no crap! You should all know that your enemy (USA) is not a idiot, beside all their scandals and failures they are still very very powerful.

What a load of lame ass excuses. "not made for desert countries" Lol wtf

Please. Please made 1700 of these slow pieces of shit with small wings that will have a hard time out running a Mig 21

Azi wrote:For Su-57 I'm much more optimistic now, because in the interview there was only a 5th column lobbyist spreading his own conspiracy theories. No official statement was made! And the plan is, first purchase 12 planes with old engines and after new engines are ready go for mass production.

To be sure mass production occur fast I go to church and light up a candle for Su-57!

Look at this lame douchbag taking propaganda made from whole cloth and buying into it. This is the whole problem with Russia fan boys. They believe all the hype about the US and all the trash talking about Russia.

Somehow the propagandist cvnts managed to convince dopes like this that the su 57 program is on the chopping block in the same week THAT THE FIRST OFFICIAL ORDER WAS SIGNED !

LMFS wrote:

Azi wrote:Yes, and because of this "PR stunt" 1700 F-35 fighter will be produced. Onyl a PR stunt! And the "PR stunt" F-22 was only 200 times produced.

I perceive that you didn't bother trying to understand the point I was making so be it. If you care looking at the facts:
F-22 original plans called for 750 aircraft to substitute the F-15. Only 183 were produced, which with their availability rates and compared to the needs of a military of global reach is very little. Meanwhile 236 F-15 C/D are in operation (data from 2016) together with 213 F-15E (2014). So what does this tell you? Either the plane was not good enough or US doesn't have enough money and as a result have failed to implement their plans. Have you even noticed that Russia is being put down for using cheap and perfectly capable Su-27SM3, Su-30SM and Su-35S, not rushing to procure the Su-57? So applying the typical western informational warfare double standards, what for the US is perfectly reasonable for Russia means an utter failure and a demonstration of their known shortcomings.

Regarding the F-35, you are right, it goes beyond PR stunt into the category of massive scam. We will see how many of them will be built, but I thought the planed number was close to 3100 and not 1700. The program has done everything to make itself indispensable against all best practices and elementary decency. Nevertheless it has managed to save face only by comparing the characteristics of the product against outdated 4G fighters, by the time other countries deploy their own 5G proposals, the comparisons will be so embarrassing that no amount of pressure and PR will be able to keep the affected military services bound to buy the promised numbers. New alternatives will need to be searched for, following the usual strategy of promising to solve with the next scam the problems caused by the ongoing one. And meanwhile the money keeps flowing into the pockets of the MIC.

F-22 is a good fighter, in maneuverability much better than F-35. Powerful radar, fast, supercruise etc. But the F-22 was TOOOO expensive and maintainance is a problem, because the F-22 is very sensible (it's not a fighter for desert countries!). So after 200 fighter, more than all Su-35 and Su-30 in RuAF together, they stopped the program. They focused at F-35 now.

Nobody saying the F-22 is not a good fighter, at least on paper. But it is a serious issue if it is too expensive or too frail, which is reportedly the case. The needs of American military (which has divided the world in military commands) are not the same of RuAF, so no use in directly comparing numbers.

For 2018 it's not useful to produce the "old" F-22 because it lacks many features a fighter of the future needs. The F-22 have NO IRST, so against a russian or chinese stealth fighter they will have problems....so in future a problem. There is a successor planned for F-22 by the way.

Then update the damn aircraft and keep producing it, as everybody does unless the design is a dead-end street and therefore a failure. Otherwise after cancelling the production, remaining F-22s/F-15s need to be stretched much further than planed or number of squadrons needs to be reduced. And the successor has not even a set of requirements agreed upon so no point in counting on it.

What piss me really off is the lack of realism in this forum! Most of you are doing exactly what the NATO and US stronkiest are doing....pure BASHING without any touch to reality. I don't write that USA and it's technology is superior and best, but it's defintely no crap! You should all know that your enemy (USA) is not a idiot, beside all their scandals and failures they are still very very powerful.

?? I don't know where all this comes from honestly. All I did was to "dare" questioning the PR dimension of 5G / stealth apart from their pure military value. You may probably understand that If you want to police the world it is better to let fear take care than actually having to fight everyone everywhere.

First of all i wanna write SORRY. I don't wanna be aggressive and you are more a balanced and polite user ^^. Maybe I misunderstood your post about "pr gag".

Yes, you are right...1700 are more or less fix number (wiki), but with options and later built planes they will exceed 3000 planes.

Why are most people taking "Sun", "Bild-Zeitung" and other western boulevard trashpapers serious for whole western media? Sometimes russian hardware is for them pure crap, to show how str*nk western hardware is, sometimes russian hardware is complete superior, to heat up the fear against "bad militaristic Russia". So most articels are complete bullshit! These newspapers and magazines are not better as my toilet paper after I wiped my ass with it! Why you expect from western hipster journalist to make a difference in russian hardware, if they even can't distinguish the F-15 from F-16!?

The F-22 is a good plane! But but but...the F-22 was a very expensive plane, the most expensive plane ever build in mass production. So @all, tell me why the US and A need expensive plane to bomb some Taliban, IS and AQ in desert countries? You could do this with WW2 planes much cheaper and better! So the workhorses are still F-15 and F-16 for USA and other western countries.

What is the difference to Russia? Russia needs modern 5gen fighter for defense (you never know how crazy Muricans can be) and to kick some ass in neighborhood (Ukraine etc.). For this task modern fighters are needed! Ukrainan Nazis are not stoneage jihadis!!! USA need their fleet of fighter and bomber only to project power and terrorize smaller countries, the threat of USSR is gone! Now this changes a bit and US and A are challenged by stronger countries (China and Russia), so F-15 will soon (2030+) be retired and a new air superiority platform will be created.
So in cold war the USA were going for "quality", stealth, super duper an this, after the cold war the fight against "terror" has begun and now the big threats rise again. So the political situation changed a few times, and the conditions for Air Force changed with them.

It's not that easy to produce the F-22 again! The production line is closed...to reopen it, upgrade the fighter and build 1 for over 200 million per plane, you can have for this two ugly 5gen ducks aka F-35. I would take the ugly lame ducks

So my best advice to ALL...don't take western boulevard media serious. Take a look at reality instead!

By the way...the Su-57 is far better than the F-22 not because of "stealth" the magic words are better radar configuration and IRST. So from my opinion Russia should not wait too long and watch out for a hypothetical 6gen fighter if they have NOW the best air superiority platform right now, even with older engines!

Pierre Sprey wrote:What a load of lame ass excuses. "not made for desert countries" Lol wtf

Please. Please made 1700 of these slow pieces of shit with small wings that will have a hard time out running a Mig 21

Yes...?!

I take your post very serious! How good is the chance for a Mig-21 to come in dogfight range close to a F-35? Can you give me a specific number or not?

Article in http://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/70770 about the Su-57. It's related to statement of Gutenev.

The article is not bad at all. They expect around 50 fighter till 2025 and that sounds realistic.

Azi wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:What a load of lame ass excuses. "not made for desert countries" Lol wtf

Please. Please made 1700 of these slow pieces of shit with small wings that will have a hard time out running a Mig 21

Yes...?!

I take your post very serious! How good is the chance for a Mig-21 to come in dogfight range close to a F-35? Can you give me a specific number or not?

You will be surprised how well a MiG-21bis did in various exercises in red flag. Went up against newer F-16's and F-15's.

If given the right upgrades (newer radar of higher education class, plenty of countermeasure systems and integrated sensors to pick up and locate signals, the MiG-21 would do wonders
Oh, and update the engines and PowerSupply for sure.

Azi wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:What a load of lame ass excuses. "not made for desert countries" Lol wtf

Please. Please made 1700 of these slow pieces of shit with small wings that will have a hard time out running a Mig 21

Yes...?!

I take your post very serious! How good is the chance for a Mig-21 to come in dogfight range close to a F-35? Can you give me a specific number or not?

Oh ! The Americans are going to try BVR again. Like they did with the Phantom in Veitnam. How did that work out ? Lol. Bring it on.

Look at the su 22 that was shot down over Syria. The su 22 actually evaded one sidewinder and the Seppo had to take another shot. The pilot admitted as much. And YET the pilot still ejected safely. This was a Syrian su 22. Badly maintained old piece of shit with home made bombs

As did the su 24 pilots and the su 25 pilots.

And how many western jets had unsuccessful ejections over the last 2 years ? Tons. There was a half dozen Hornets, there was the F-16i over Syria. There was a Eurofighter in the middle east and a EF at an airshow in Spain.

miketheterrible wrote:

Azi wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:What a load of lame ass excuses. "not made for desert countries" Lol wtf

Please. Please made 1700 of these slow pieces of shit with small wings that will have a hard time out running a Mig 21

Yes...?!

I take your post very serious! How good is the chance for a Mig-21 to come in dogfight range close to a F-35? Can you give me a specific number or not?

You will be surprised how well a MiG-21bis did in various exercises in red flag. Went up against newer F-16's and F-15's.

If given the right upgrades (newer radar of higher education class, plenty of countermeasure systems and integrated sensors to pick up and locate signals, the MiG-21 would do wonders
Oh, and update the engines and PowerSupply for sure.

Russian showed to indian some rcs reduction applied to mig-21 and they were surprised how it worked well. They showed them on radar and the difference was very big. Mig-21 is already in its design stealth with small size, very simple geometry, engine hiden in the plane.

Many aesa radars are offered for mig-21 by eastern countries and israel.

Add nice jammer like msp-418 or the one called "satellit" on which you can put a r-73 missile, both drfm capable and you are practically safe from amraam.

With such aircraft you can easily go into dogfight against f-35 and even f-22. Indian mig-21 were very hard to lock on during redflag because of jaming and small rcs.

Azi wrote:Article in http://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/70770 about the Su-57. It's related to statement of Gutenev.

The article is not bad at all. They expect around 50 fighter till 2025 and that sounds realistic.

So we have an article now from Military Watch magazine that references the Vladimir Gutenev statement and obviously , like we already knew, the interpretation by the sophists Falcondude and Actionjackson is just that. Cheap underhanded sophistry.

But they will still interpret it to spin the narrative to fit their insane view that the program is a failure or something. I'll get back to that.

http://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/70750

Quoted from the article:

- The Su-57 program is very much a sixth generation air superiority fighter program, one which at early stages can serve as a high end fifth generation aircraft comparable to the American Raptor - as in the case of the 12 initial production production variants ordered by the Air Force, but ultimately the Russian military began the program with a greater end in mind.

-The end goal of the Su-57 is to be able to go head to head with the American sixth generation air superiority fighter currently being developed to replace the Raptor under the F/A-XX next generation air dominance fighter.

-Further enhancements to electronic warfare capabilities and radar jamming, stealth, next generation engines, the use of hypersonic and energy weapons and the deployment of defensive missile blinding lasers are among the systems which a completed sixth generation variant of the Su-57 is likely to deploy.

-Unlike the Su-57, the F-22 is a purely fifth generation fighter and has seen little invested in its modernization.

-Russia doesn’t need a massive Su-57 fifth generation fleet to protect itself or maintain parity with the Western Bloc at present, but it will in the not too distant future have considerable need for a sixth generation air superiority fighter capable of matching the upcoming American platform.

Now. Here is how the sophists will spin it.

The article also says this:

Russia's cutting edge air defense network and its heavily upgraded ‘4++’ generation fighter fleet, backed up by advanced electronic warfare technologies which are reportedly heavily relied on to compensate for a lack of stealth, are more than enough to retain sufficient parity with the Western Bloc that they will be cautious about challenging the Russian fleet openly - in Syria, Eastern Europe, the Pacific or elsewhere.

^They will say that the "lack of stealth" that is written here, INCLUDES the coming batch of 12 su 57's. But it does not. Because before that sentence, it says this : "It is first critical to understand that at present Russia has no urgent need for the Su-57". So no. The "lack of stealth, does not imply that the Russian force will lack stealth with the first batch of su 57's. Even though that's what Falcondue and Action Jackson will say.

Azi wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:It is absolute failure as air superiority platform.

The main requirement to be an air superiority platform is to train the pilots at least 120 hours per year, preferably for 200 hours.


An aircraft that has low reliability AND high per flight hour cost can not have well trained pilots, means it can not function as air superiority platform.

And I have a feeling about that the stealth characteristic of the airplane IF they want to use it require more training than you can expect in the case of a normal aircraft.

Means an F-1X fighter jet can outperform them in real combat, not because of the characteristic of the airplane, but due to the skills of the pilots.

Ahhhh yeah...BULLSHIT! Complete BULLSHIT!

You wanna tell me that good trained pilots are only on platforms like Mig-19, based on maintainance and cost...ah yes, than pilots of stoneage african countries with their old ducks are world elite!

US-pilots are among the best of the world!!! They have a lot of training hours, more than russian pilots! Maybe this changed with russian air campaign in Syria, I don't know...

Modern aerial warfare is not dogfight, it is BVR fight...who see first, fire first and win! If everything goes wrong (only 50 % of BVR fight is successful), then dogfight occurs. So for BVR you can fly a lame old duck, if the missiles are good the pilots could be complete disabled and retarded....would be ok. Only in real dogfight more of 100 % of the pilot is needed.

By the way...there was enough maneuver with F-22 vs. F-1x, Eurofighter and Rafale fighter. The F-22 showed very good perfomance.

The F-22 pilots fly less than 100 hours per mont, compared to 120-200 hours of other fighter jets in the US inventory.

As it looks like the Russian pilots and the american ones are fly the same hours per yeras now, appart from the f22 (probably f35) pilots, who flight very small ammount of time.

100 hours flight time per year means that the pilots has low level of skills, and has very low chance of survival in any real war, if they have to fight against well trained enemy.


Bare minimum is 120 hours per year, and to keep high level of skills the pilots needs 150-200 hours per year.

NATO standard require 180 hours per year for fighter pilots.

And yes, the training of the user of the weapons matter more than the actual weapons.

So, the F22 is a disaster, not usable in real war BECAUSE the RAM and the geometric shaping is so maintanance intensive they can't keep them in the air enoguth time to have skilled pilots.

https://www.dvidshub.net/news/279929/era-1000-f-22-pilots-reach-flying-hour-milestone

I think the above issue with the training is the reason why they want to use beyond viasual range weaons, powerfull radards, networked aircrafts and so on.


They can't train the pilots for anything more, due to the high cost and low availability.

That is the reason why the indians and the russian MOD is not so enthusiastic about the SU57 I think.

To keep the radar cross section at -20/-30 DB they can't have any skin damage, missing RAM coating or simple bump on the airframe.

It has to be absolutly perfect every time, without any small scratch or inperfection.


One bird hit means the aircraft radar cross section degradetad dramaticaly.

As I calculate hte F35 flight hours are around 120 per pilots as well.

Singular_Transform wrote:

Azi wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:It is absolute failure as air superiority platform.

The main requirement to be an air superiority platform is to train the pilots at least 120 hours per year, preferably for 200 hours.


An aircraft that has low reliability AND high per flight hour cost can not have well trained pilots, means it can not function as air superiority platform.

And I have a feeling about that the stealth characteristic of the airplane IF they want to use it require more training than you can expect in the case of a normal aircraft.

Means an F-1X fighter jet can outperform them in real combat, not because of the characteristic of the airplane, but due to the skills of the pilots.

Ahhhh yeah...BULLSHIT! Complete BULLSHIT!

You wanna tell me that good trained pilots are only on platforms like Mig-19, based on maintainance and cost...ah yes, than pilots of stoneage african countries with their old ducks are world elite!

US-pilots are among the best of the world!!! They have a lot of training hours, more than russian pilots! Maybe this changed with russian air campaign in Syria, I don't know...

Modern aerial warfare is not dogfight, it is BVR fight...who see first, fire first and win! If everything goes wrong (only 50 % of BVR fight is successful), then dogfight occurs. So for BVR you can fly a lame old duck, if the missiles are good the pilots could be complete disabled and retarded....would be ok. Only in real dogfight more of 100 % of the pilot is needed.

By the way...there was enough maneuver with F-22 vs. F-1x, Eurofighter and Rafale fighter. The F-22 showed very good perfomance.

The F-22 pilots fly less than 100 hours per mont, compared to 120-200 hours of other fighter jets in the US inventory.

As it looks like the Russian pilots and the american ones are fly the same hours per yeras now, appart from the f22 (probably f35) pilots, who flight very small ammount of time.

100 hours flight time per year means that the pilots has low level of skills, and has very low chance of survival in any real war, if they have to fight against well trained enemy.


Bare minimum is 120 hours per year, and to keep high level of skills the pilots needs 150-200 hours per year.

NATO standard require 180 hours per year for fighter pilots.

And yes, the training of the user of the weapons matter more than the actual weapons.

So, the F22 is a disaster, not usable in real war BECAUSE the RAM and the geometric shaping is so maintanance intensive they can't keep them in the air enoguth time to have skilled pilots.

https://www.dvidshub.net/news/279929/era-1000-f-22-pilots-reach-flying-hour-milestone

You can put your "calculation" and throw in the bin!

The Air Force has a a overall problem with skilled personal and pilots, it has nothing to do with F-22. There were several years the F-22 was complete not used in conflicts or police missions. The F-22 was grounded for a longer time, because of problem with oxygen, pilots had problems with their consciousness.

First combat use was in Syra against the Islamic State, it was 2014! Since this time the F-22 is used widely, before it was never used. The readiness rate of F-22 is normally very high, it was around 75 % and this is really igh for a western plane. From 2015 on the readiness level in US Air Force declined drastic. The following image is data from 2017.


As you can see the readiness level for F-22 is ok. But for B-1B, B-2 and Osprey it's catastrophic!

Pierre Sprey wrote:

Azi wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:What a load of lame ass excuses. "not made for desert countries" Lol wtf

Please. Please made 1700 of these slow pieces of shit with small wings that will have a hard time out running a Mig 21

Yes...?!

I take your post very serious! How good is the chance for a Mig-21 to come in dogfight range close to a F-35? Can you give me a specific number or not?

Oh ! The Americans are going to try BVR again. Like they did with the Phantom in Veitnam. How did that work out ? Lol. Bring it on.

Look at the su 22 that was shot down over Syria. The su 22 actually evaded one sidewinder and the Seppo had to take another shot. The pilot admitted as much. And YET the pilot still ejected safely. This was a Syrian su 22. Badly maintained old piece of shit with home made bombs

As did the su 24 pilots and the su 25 pilots.

And how many western jets had unsuccessful ejections over the last 2 years ? Tons. There was a half dozen Hornets, there was the F-16i over Syria. There was a Eurofighter in the middle east and a EF at an airshow in Spain.

Yo compare the 60ies and 70ies with 2018...this is really retarded! Technology is much more advanced and BVR is more important. Ok, if you wanna be right....name the latest shot down in a dogfight...I'm waiting!

Yes...look at the Su-22...it was shot down by Murican aggressors! How many US fighters were shot down by great SyAAF?

And you are comparing shots with accidents! The Eurofighter in Spain was shot down? WTF are you writing about?

You are now on my personal ignore list! You are welcome!

miketheterrible wrote:

Azi wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:What a load of lame ass excuses. "not made for desert countries" Lol wtf

Please. Please made 1700 of these slow pieces of shit with small wings that will have a hard time out running a Mig 21

Yes...?!

I take your post very serious! How good is the chance for a Mig-21 to come in dogfight range close to a F-35? Can you give me a specific number or not?

You will be surprised how well a MiG-21bis did in various exercises in red flag. Went up against newer F-16's and F-15's.

If given the right upgrades (newer radar of higher education class, plenty of countermeasure systems and integrated sensors to pick up and locate signals, the MiG-21 would do wonders
Oh, and update the engines and PowerSupply for sure.

It's a great plane with much potential to upgrade! Using modern avionics can level it extreme up, giving better situational awareness (Alpha and Omega in warfare!)n and makng life of pilot easier. Like Isos wrote the small frontal diameter giving it a very low RCS.

For smaller countries could be a option to build a "silent Mig-21" using a special coating and overhaul some parts of the jet.

Yes...look at the Su-22...it was shot down by Murican aggressors! How many US fighters were shot down by great SyAAF? In dogfights?

It was a dogfight. Su-22 pilot managed to escape an IR aim-9 missile and then the f-18 pilot launched aim-120 in close range. If it had ecm and chaffs he would have escaped the amraam shot too.

Btw su-22 is a bomber without any modern radar or missiles launch detectors. And if syrian air force tries to destroy US fighter they would suffer a big tomahawk attack.

Isos wrote:

Yes...look at the Su-22...it was shot down by Murican aggressors! How many US fighters were shot down by great SyAAF? In dogfights?

It was a dogfight. Su-22 pilot managed to escape an IR aim-9 missile and then the f-18 pilot launched aim-120 in close range. If it had ecm and chaffs he would have escaped the amraam shot too.

Btw su-22 is a bomber without any modern radar or missiles launch detectors.  And if syrian air force tries to destroy US fighter they would suffer a big tomahawk attack.

Ok didn't know it was soo close. I thought medium range because of the AIM-120.

Yes, this is why I wrote in modern warfare nearly 50 % of a missile volley is a miss. Longer distance the miss chance increase drastic. Have a look at Iranian F-14 in first guf war (Iran vs. Iraq) with their long range missile...they hit nearly nothing.

But surprise is for the plane that fires first! After that it can retreat or go into dogfight. So for the attacked plane first priority is to evade incoming missiles. So a lame duck like F-35 has a few advantages, even it is real bad maneuverable. It don't has to go to dogfight, only modern fighter with good radar or IRST can spot the F-35 over a larger distance and strike back or strike first.

So 5gen is something worth and I can't understand people defending old 4gen fighter as better as modern fighter. "We don't need Su-57, because Mig-21 and Su-27 is much more better than Murican 5gen trash". This is just an illusion and this should be clear.

By the way...you are right with Tomahawk attack! This characterize the western hybris!!! USA comes to Syria occupies land and attacks from time to time SAA position, but if Syria would fire back, they would say Syria is the aggressor.

Azi wrote:First of all i wanna write SORRY. I don't wanna be aggressive and you are more a balanced and polite user ^^. Maybe I misunderstood your post about "pr gag".

Yes, you are right...1700 are more or less fix number (wiki), but with options and later built planes they will exceed 3000 planes.

Why are most people taking "Sun", "Bild-Zeitung" and other western boulevard trashpapers serious for whole western media? Sometimes russian hardware is for them pure crap, to show how str*nk western hardware is, sometimes russian hardware is complete superior, to heat up the fear against "bad militaristic Russia". So most articels are complete bullshit! These newspapers and magazines are not better as my toilet paper after I wiped my ass with it! Why you expect from western hipster journalist to make a difference in russian hardware, if they even can't distinguish the F-15 from F-16!?

The F-22 is a good plane! But but but...the F-22 was a very expensive plane, the most expensive plane ever build in mass production. So @all, tell me why the US and A need expensive plane to bomb some Taliban, IS and AQ in desert countries? You could do this with WW2 planes much cheaper and better! So the workhorses are still F-15 and F-16 for USA and other western countries.

What is the difference to Russia? Russia needs modern 5gen fighter for defense (you never know how crazy Muricans can be) and to kick some ass in neighborhood (Ukraine etc.). For this task modern fighters are needed! Ukrainan Nazis are not stoneage jihadis!!! USA need their fleet of fighter and bomber only to project power and terrorize smaller countries, the threat of USSR is gone! Now this changes a bit and US and A are challenged by stronger countries (China and Russia), so F-15 will soon (2030+) be retired and a new air superiority platform will be created.
So in cold war the USA were going for "quality", stealth, super duper an this, after the cold war the fight against "terror" has begun and now the big threats rise again. So the political situation changed a few times, and the conditions for Air Force changed with them.

It's not that easy to produce the F-22 again! The production line is closed...to reopen it, upgrade the fighter and build 1 for over 200 million per plane, you can have for this two ugly 5gen ducks aka F-35. I would take the ugly lame ducks

So my best advice to ALL...don't take western boulevard media serious. Take a look at reality instead!

By the way...the Su-57 is far better than the F-22 not because of "stealth" the magic words are better radar configuration and IRST. So from my opinion Russia should not wait too long and watch out for a hypothetical 6gen fighter if they have NOW the best air superiority platform right now, even with older engines!

Well, thanks for being civil, that is something indeed.

The issue with the media is that this PR contamination is not limited to Daily Mail and the likes. Since the promotion of military capabilities is a national security issue, certain triumphalist narratives about own capacities are fed from top to bottom, so officials and journalists, many times unknowingly, spread and lend credibility to them. In the end everybody ends up believing (because a good source told so) and repeating the same myths even when all hard evidence indicates they are false. Modification of the B-2, the only aircraft potentially capable of wide-band LO in USAF, for low level penetration and the hysteria surrounding the S-400 are clear indicators that stealth does not exist as claimed against properly designed ADs. It is a farce plain and simple.

5G for Russia... well, it is also a case of prestige, development of aeronautic industry and export sales together with perhaps a certain interest in defending against suicidal neighbouring countries (Ukraine, Georgia come to mind) and power projection, this is sadly unavoidable. Tactical use against US fighters for the defence of the country is a very hypothetical case but it is also correct not to leave any weak spot that could be exploited by US or their proxies so a certain level of LO was included in the design. There are side effects of stealth like weapons bays that actually make a lot of sense due to aerodynamics so they are being put to good use. But aerodynamics design was close to perfection already on 4G and now even better on 5G, next advances will be probably related to avionics and maybe propulsion than to the platform itself, therefore the PAK-FA is claimed to be a potential 6G fighter as well.

Restarting the F-22... shouldn't be an issue because it should not have been closed. Like retiring the F-14 and destroying its tooling, cancelling the advanced IRST or not going forward with the F-22B, this was all done in order to make the F-35 indispensable. Epic shot in the own feet by the US military. They will need a money that they don't have anymore as it was usual in the good old times to recover from such a failure. The 6G is fine and dandy, but with planes crashing, missing spares and a shortage of pilots to build the F-35 will be enough of a challenge without considering the PCA.

So 5gen is something worth and I can't understand people defending old 4gen fighter as better as modern fighter. "We don't need Su-57, because Mig-21 and Su-27 is much more better than Murican 5gen trash". This is just an illusion and this should be clear.

Well like most poeple on the net you see this being 1000 f-35 from 20 US carrier against a poor country like iraq that has 20 or so fighter that can't even fly.

All things equal, like a normal army with 20 or so f-35 that cost them half their budget against a normal army with 20 or so mig 35 that are neighbours, it won't be decisive. You can destroy those fighters with MLRS or SRBM pretty easily or at least the airports where they are.

Serbia exports a MLRS with 280km range with 4 rockets per truck. With such thing syria could target all israel. And those rockets cost a fraction of one f-35.

Azi wrote:
You can put your "calculation" and throw in the bin!

The Air Force has a a overall problem with skilled personal and pilots, it has nothing to do with F-22. There were several years the F-22 was complete not used in conflicts or police missions. The F-22 was grounded for a longer time, because of problem with oxygen, pilots had problems with their consciousness.

First combat use was in Syra against the Islamic State, it was 2014! Since this time the F-22 is used widely, before it was never used. The readiness rate of F-22 is normally very high, it was around 75 % and this is really igh for a western plane. From 2015 on the readiness level in US Air Force declined drastic. The following image is data from 2017.


As you can see the readiness level for F-22 is ok. But for B-1B, B-2 and Osprey it's catastrophic!

The F-35 is calculation, the others are fact.

However there was celebration in 2016 about a lead trainer who reached the 500 flight hours on f35 after 3 years.

Means he had 166 hours/year.

Considering that he is a trainer the trainees/active pilots should receive less than he.


The above availability rates are lover than the other fighter aircraft AND the flight hours / pilots for 22/35 way less than for other jets, means either the availability numbers are wrong, or there is other reasons why the pilots can't fly. example lack of money : )

Singular_Transform wrote:I think the above issue with the training is the reason why they want to use beyond viasual range weaons, powerfull radards, networked aircrafts and so on.



That is the reason why the indians and the russian MOD is not so enthusiastic about the SU57 I think.

This is complete twaddle. First off, the whole Indian airforce vs Pak Fa thing was a political witchhunt by US. Brown envelopes were being passed to IAF offcials to black ball the pak fa for political reasons. The Indian pilots love their su 30 MKI's. It makes no sense that they wouldn't like the same thing that's lighter, with more power, better payload, kinematics and stealth.

And secondly, the su 57 doesn't use the same shitty RAM that is used on the F-22. The su 57 just uses more composite surfacing. Which is a way better way to do it.

Sukhoi’s PAK FA incorporates every major stealth enhancing measures seen on the F-22. Internal structure is mainly constructed of composite alloys and carbon fiber yielding more strength, reduced weight and result in thinner wings, tail planes and fins. The external structure has minimized number of horizontal, vertical, lateral and longitudinal angles. The nose radome and canopy prevent radar waves from penetrating and bouncing off of metal components.

The outer skin is made of composite materials. [b]Stealth composite absorbents are made by loading matrices with electromagnetic materials ranging from metallic particles to carbon nanotubes. Thus, for example, carbon impregnated polyurethane foam, carbon-loaded silicone and neoprene, and iron-loaded urethane are among material combinations known to soak up microwave energy[b]

The F-22 is plagued by problems caused by it’s radar absorbent material (RAM) it has durability issues in adverse whether conditions, it’s very heat conductive and reaches high temperatures in supersonic fight and has to be serviced after each mission. Rainy weather conditions reportedly posed technical difficulties to F-22A’s operating out of Guam in 2009

Azi wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:

Azi wrote:

Pierre Sprey wrote:What a load of lame ass excuses. "not made for desert countries" Lol wtf

Please. Please made 1700 of these slow pieces of shit with small wings that will have a hard time out running a Mig 21

Yes...?!

I take your post very serious! How good is the chance for a Mig-21 to come in dogfight range close to a F-35? Can you give me a specific number or not?

Oh ! The Americans are going to try BVR again. Like they did with the Phantom in Veitnam. How did that work out ? Lol. Bring it on.

Look at the su 22 that was shot down over Syria. The su 22 actually evaded one sidewinder and the Seppo had to take another shot. The pilot admitted as much. And YET the pilot still ejected safely. This was a Syrian su 22. Badly maintained old piece of shit with home made bombs

As did the su 24 pilots and the su 25 pilots.

And how many western jets had unsuccessful ejections over the last 2 years ? Tons. There was a half dozen Hornets, there was the F-16i over Syria. There was a Eurofighter in the middle east and a EF at an airshow in Spain.

Yo compare the 60ies and 70ies with 2018...this is really retarded! Technology is much more advanced and BVR is more important. Ok, if you wanna be right....name the latest shot down in a dogfight...I'm waiting!

Yes...look at the Su-22...it was shot down by Murican aggressors! How many US fighters were shot down by great SyAAF?

And you are comparing shots with accidents! The Eurofighter in Spain was shot down? WTF are you writing about?

You are now on my personal ignore list! You are welcome!

The point was, that even in the most unfair fight ever (Syrian su 22 vs Hornet), the su 22 STILL evaded the US fighter once and the US fighter had to shoot again. That is nothing less than a complete embarassment for the US especially when they plan on BVR'ing it for the forseeable future.


And no. No Eurofighters were shot down. I was just mentioning in passing that the su 22 pilot, su 24 pilots and su 25 pilots all ejected safely in Syria while there was a string of failed ejections for western aircraft.

A RSAF Typhoon combat aircraft involved in a mission against Houthi fighters over Yemen crashed into a mountain in Al Wade’a district on Sept. 13, 2017.
The pilot, identified as Mahna al-Biz, died

Eurofighter jet crashes in Spain, killing pilot - Reuters
https://www.reuters.com/...spain-crash/eurofighter-jet-crashes-in-spain-killing-pilot-idUS...
Oct 12, 2017 -

Marine Hornet pilot killed in crash off Japan - Marine Corps Times
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/.../marine-hornet-pilot-killed-in-crash-off-japan/

A Royal Canadian Air Force single-seat CF-188 Hornet from 4 Wing Cold Lake crashed inside the Cold Lake Air Weapons Range in Saskatchewan, on Nov. 28. The pilot died in the incident.

On Aug. 29, a Swiss Air Force F/A-18 Hornet crashed shortly after taking off from Meiringen airbase. The 27-year-old pilot was found dead two days later.