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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:04 am

    LMFS wrote:The impression reading what Gutenev said about Su-57 and 6G fighters is he is not really talking about actual plans but about possibilities that have been blown out of proportion because it was said by some Russian official, notwithstanding the fact that so many times with Russian language the sense gets lost in translation. Keep in mind that disinformation is also a possibility, so to jump out of the window just because of some outlandish claims contradicted by the rest of evidence does not seem smart.
    ......

    Disinformation is up there with 5th column when it comes to realism. There is no cunning plan here (not by Russian government anyway)

    This here is tale old as time: politician bitch lobbying on behalf of someone in MIC who stands to gain financially from canceling Su-57 and continued orders of Su-35.




    Pierre Sprey wrote:.....
    Seems you are interpreting all of the news about the su 57 through the USA propagandist lense. And they are even quoting your freakout as proof of their propaganda sophistry. .....

    Got any links? I do love being quoted...
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:02 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Disinformation is up there with 5th column when it comes to realism. There is no cunning plan here (not by Russian government anyway)

    This here is tale old as time: politician bitch lobbying on behalf of someone in MIC who stands to gain financially from canceling Su-57 and continued orders of Su-35.


    It is the same story everywhere.

    In the US you can see the same level of incompetence, incapability and corruption.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:35 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Disinformation is up there with 5th column when it comes to realism. There is no cunning plan here (not by Russian government anyway)

    This here is tale old as time: politician bitch lobbying on behalf of someone in MIC who stands to gain financially from canceling Su-57 and continued orders of Su-35.


    It is the same story everywhere.

    In the US you can see the same level of incompetence, incapability and corruption.

    That's the U.S Defense industry's bread and butter is delay, delay, delay, and ask for more funds to "resolve" the delays.
    This is how they make the lions share of their profits.
    In Russia, the ones that practice this most, are the Shipyards, apparently.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:57 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:


    That's the U.S Defense industry's bread and butter is delay, delay, delay, and ask for more funds to "resolve" the delays.
    This is how they make the lions share of their profits.
    In Russia, the ones that practice this most, are the Shipyards, apparently.

    It is not the shipyards, it is the supply chain

    The shipyard have to weld together a pile of metal, and put a lot of components into the ship.

    This is easy.

    But to make sonars, reactors, complex weapon systems and software takes long time, resources, debugging and learning.
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    kvs

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:30 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Disinformation is up there with 5th column when it comes to realism. There is no cunning plan here (not by Russian government anyway)

    This here is tale old as time: politician bitch lobbying on behalf of someone in MIC who stands to gain financially from canceling Su-57 and continued orders of Su-35.


    It is the same story everywhere.

    In the US you can see the same level of incompetence, incapability and corruption.

    That's the U.S Defense industry's bread and butter is delay, delay, delay, and ask for more funds to "resolve" the delays.
    This is how they make the lions share of their profits.
    In Russia, the ones that practice this most, are the Shipyards, apparently.

    We have a winner!

    In Russia, defense expenditures are kept down by pressuring contractors to ask for reasonable prices. As we saw with
    the T-14 Armata, they are not happy and want to live it up, NATO style. This is the reason why the same shipyards that
    can construct civilian ships without problems are always in crisis mode when it comes to naval ships. They want to
    extort the Russian government for every last dime since this is "boutique" construction and supposedly not subject to
    market prices. Make no mistake, the management of these defense contractors are capitalist scum. They do not
    just want to charge a proper markup based on the construction details. They want some ad hoc price based on
    taking a piece of the action and cleaning out the taxpayer wallet. This is basically a variant of the tragedy of the commons.
    These scumbags have no standards or respect for public money. But they know that private customers have spines and
    will not put up with abuse.

    The Russian government needs to nationalize a few key yards and build naval ships itself. The private model is a crock since
    the alleged economies of scale of the private contractors are not actually passed down the taxpayers. These contractors
    do not treat government orders as standard market orders.
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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  LMFS on Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:12 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Disinformation is up there with 5th column when it comes to realism. There is no cunning plan here (not by Russian government anyway)

    This here is tale old as time: politician bitch lobbying on behalf of someone in MIC who stands to gain financially from canceling Su-57 and continued orders of Su-35.
    Sometimes the translations of Russian officials' statements are so utterly indecipherable that I wonder if they are not performing extremely crafty misinformation tricks lol1

    But yeah you are right, the answer normally is "incompetence"
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    Hole

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Hole on Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:22 am

    Nearly all ship yard are organised into a state owned company. United shipbuilding company.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:54 pm

    Hole wrote:Nearly all ship yard are organised into a state owned company. United shipbuilding company.

    And one that isn't (Pella) is doing more work that rest of them combined

    mnztr

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  mnztr on Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:58 pm

    People seem to forget what Russia has gone through. From a complete collapse and breakup of a nation, it has managed to emerge from the USSR and gradually rebuild its supply chain to mantain quite a sizeable amount of military power. The SU-57 is nearing production and the SU-35 , nuclear subs and strategic missiles have been redevolped with new and incredibly deadly models. Naval power has (other then subs and boomers) has always been 3rd prioirity because navies are for power projection and Russia has not had the desire or resoruces to do this for about 15 years. Now they are getting there, but I think the calculus will be different. Smaller ships armed with hypersonic missiles that can deter just about any ship and land based Naval air power that can wipe out any fleet. They may build small LHD or maybe a couple of carriers someday, but I think for the most part nothing bigger then Leider will be new built and the Kirov class will be the main capital ships with a whithering array of missiles.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:28 pm

    Russia fans need to get a grip and stop buying into the f--ing bullshit, sophistery and propaganda coming from the west.

    It took 14 YEARS from when the F-22 contract was awarded and until the jet went into service. Russia is what ? at 15 years now with the Pak fa program ???

    That was with no economic collapse in the US. And YET the program was still a failure. They production line was shut down. And the jets that are left over, are only 60% available. They are hanager queens and airshow pieces. And the 4th gen jets from the 70's still make the backbone of the air force. Even Russia's 4th gens are newer and better than the US's. The F-15 was introduced in 1976. The su 27 was in 1985.


    Unlike Russia fans, the USA stronkists are never critical of their own stuff. Sure there is some criticism of the F-35. But that is changing. That piece of shit is getting buttered up now. They pump up their shit and degrade the Russian stuff. And instead of fighting back, the Russia fans take the degrading bs from the stronkists to heart.

    Russia has ship building issues ?

    Zumwalt Class -- Navy's Stealth Destroyer Program Failure | National ...
    https://www.nationalreview.com/.../zumwalt-class-navy-stealth-destroyer-program-fail...

    Dec 19, 2016 - How the Navy's Zumwalt-Class Destroyers Ran Aground ... On November 22, while the world watched, the U.S. Navy's newest, most .... size; it simply will not have enough crew members to do what is needed to save the ship.

    2nd Zumwalt-Class Stealth Destroyer Suffers Equipment Failure | The ...
    https://thediplomat.com/.../2nd-zumwalt-class-stealth-destroyer-suffers-equipment-fail...

    Dec 12, 2017 - The USS Zumwalt, lead ship of theZumwalt-class of guided missile destroyers. ... The U.S. Navy said that the equipment failure will not impact the ship's ... in the future given the Zumwalt's new integrated power system that can ...

    The U.S. Navy's Newest Stealth Destroyer Has Broken Down
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:54 pm

    Pierre Sprey wrote:.....

    Russia has ship building issues ?

    Zumwalt Class -- Navy's Stealth Destroyer Program Failure | National ...
    https://www.nationalreview.com/.../zumwalt-class-navy-stealth-destroyer-program-fail...

    Dec 19, 2016 - How the Navy's Zumwalt-Class Destroyers Ran Aground ... On November 22, while the world watched, the U.S. Navy's newest, most .... size; it simply will not have enough crew members to do what is needed to save the ship.

    2nd Zumwalt-Class Stealth Destroyer Suffers Equipment Failure | The ...
    https://thediplomat.com/.../2nd-zumwalt-class-stealth-destroyer-suffers-equipment-fail...

    Dec 12, 2017 - The USS Zumwalt, lead ship of theZumwalt-class of guided missile destroyers. ... The U.S. Navy said that the equipment failure will not impact the ship's ... in the future given the Zumwalt's new integrated power system that can ...

    The U.S. Navy's Newest Stealth Destroyer Has Broken Down


    Funny thing is that USA has loads of ships to replace each and every one of those damaged vessels

    In the meantime landing ship of the Russian Pacific Fleet 'Oslabya' just ran aground:

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3264685.html

    Now tell me, what will Russian Navy replace it with and how many decades from now?

    They should just swallow their undeserved pride, call Indonesians and end this misery already...
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:12 pm

    They production line was shut down. And the jets that are left over, are only 60% available.

    They shut it down because the need disapeared with USSR collapse. 60% is not bad at all for such a complexe fighter.

    And the 4th gen jets from the 70's still make the backbone of the air force. Even Russia's 4th gens are newer and better than the US's. The F-15 was introduced in 1976. The su 27 was in 1985.

    Many upgraded f-15, 200 newer f-15E, 196 f-22, 1256 f-16 c/d and 500 f-18 superhornet compared to 48 su-35 and 90 su-30sm plus what is left of su-27 and mig-31, any wealthy man would take the first one.

    US has the advantage of numbers. It's not being fan of one or the other country, its reality.
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    dino00

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  dino00 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:20 pm

    Russia completing R-37M air-to-air missile trials

    https://airrecognition.com/index.php/archive-world-worldwide-news-air-force-aviation-aerospace-air-military-defence-industry/global-defense-security-news/global-news-2018/july/4374-russia-completing-r-37m-air-to-air-missile-trials.html
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:


    Funny thing is that USA has loads of ships to replace each and every one of those damaged vessels

    In the meantime landing ship of the Russian Pacific Fleet 'Oslabya' just ran aground:

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3264685.html

    Now tell me, what will Russian Navy replace it with and how many decades from now?

    They should just swallow their undeserved pride, call Indonesians and end this misery already...

    There is a serious shortage of ships/aircrafts in the US military.


    That was the reason of the humiliating collisions in 17.

    They stretched the operation tempo with skipping training/maintenance schedule, resulting in the loss of several ships.

    They need to double the number of ships to meet the current requirements, if they want to enjoy the same level of superiority like in the 00s then the doubling will not be enough.
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    kvs

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:51 pm

    Hole wrote:Nearly all ship yard are organised into a state owned company. United shipbuilding company.

    There is a difference between a Crown Corporation and a government run company. USC is at arm's length from
    the government and as with Petro Canada (before and after its "privatization") exhibits quite rapacious capitalism.

    I am talking about a company where there is no profit and shareholder dividend obsession.
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    kvs

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:54 pm

    Isos wrote:
    They production line was shut down. And the jets that are left over, are only 60% available.

    They shut it down because the need disapeared with USSR collapse. 60% is not bad at all for such a complexe fighter.

    Wrong, they shut it down because they decided not to sell the F-22 to any US ally. The US was selling F-18s after 1991
    and is now selling the F-35. (The F-35 is not a replacement for the F-22).

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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:28 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    They production line was shut down. And the jets that are left over, are only 60% available.

    They shut it down because the need disapeared with USSR collapse. 60% is not bad at all for such a complexe fighter.

    Wrong, they shut it down because they decided not to sell the F-22 to any US ally.    The US was selling F-18s after 1991
    and is now selling the F-35.   (The F-35 is not a replacement for the F-22).  


    Yes they shut it down because no need for them anymore and they didn't want to export them. Not because it was a faillure like the other said above.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:12 pm

    Many reasons

    F-22 was costly. Not just to build but even to fly.
    Cold war was over and no CW2 in pipeline yet so they dropped it after finding out costs vs performance wasn't worth it
    Various issues with jet kept popping up.

    Good jet, but yeah, expensive. F-35 is a boat though.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:.....

    Russia has ship building issues ?

    Zumwalt Class -- Navy's Stealth Destroyer Program Failure | National ...
    https://www.nationalreview.com/.../zumwalt-class-navy-stealth-destroyer-program-fail...

    Dec 19, 2016 - How the Navy's Zumwalt-Class Destroyers Ran Aground ... On November 22, while the world watched, the U.S. Navy's newest, most .... size; it simply will not have enough crew members to do what is needed to save the ship.

    2nd Zumwalt-Class Stealth Destroyer Suffers Equipment Failure | The ...
    https://thediplomat.com/.../2nd-zumwalt-class-stealth-destroyer-suffers-equipment-fail...

    Dec 12, 2017 - The USS Zumwalt, lead ship of theZumwalt-class of guided missile destroyers. ... The U.S. Navy said that the equipment failure will not impact the ship's ... in the future given the Zumwalt's new integrated power system that can ...

    The U.S. Navy's Newest Stealth Destroyer Has Broken Down


    Funny thing is that USA has loads of ships to replace each and every one of those damaged vessels

    In the meantime landing ship of the Russian Pacific Fleet 'Oslabya' just ran aground:

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3264685.html

    Now tell me, what will Russian Navy replace it with and how many decades from now?

    They should just swallow their undeserved pride, call Indonesians and end this misery already...
    I never said Russia was without problems asshole. Russia is a land power for one thing. Not a naval power. Either way, Russia's military is paid for.


    The US's whole fleet will get cut in half the minute that China stops stuffing money in the US's pockets. China owns more of the US fleet than the US does. Why the retarded coward Chinese keep doing this I don't know. But it wont forever. Just like the US didn't keep the British afloat forever

    Note Russia's position. There is a difference between not having the money and choosing not to allocate the money. For Russia, its the latter

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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:09 pm

    Isos wrote:
    They production line was shut down. And the jets that are left over, are only 60% available.

    They shut it down because the need disapeared with USSR collapse. 60% is not bad at all for such a complexe fighter.


    Bullshit.

    The jet was a failure. The program was a failure. The fact that the USSR was gone is just an excuse. Military spending went up since then. So that's not true.

    The USA stronkists don't give any credit to the Pak Fa. They hate it with a passion. So fuck them. We shouldn't pump the F-22's tires. The jet really is a piece of shit. An F-15 with LO features.

    One $350-million programme in particular is making a mix of five major structural changes to 162 aircraft, including a mid-fuselage and engine bay retrofit, just so each can reach its promised service life of 8,000 flight hours.
    Another ongoing effort, known as the reliability and maintainability maturation programme (RAMMP), is buying 10,824 upgrades kits through 2020 at a cost of more than $1.7 billion. The kits deal with various deficiencies, from the landing gear light that doesn’t always work to a $30 million upgrade of the cockpit’s primary multifunction display.
    US lawmakers have taken particular interest in the cost of fixing the Raptor, passing legislation in 2013 that requires the air force to report on its modernisation activities.
    According to the latest report seen by Flightglobal, RAMMP has “steadily improved” the aircraft’s mission fleet availability rate, which currently stands at 62.8% compared to the average of 40% when the Raptor entered service in 2005.


    Last edited by Pierre Sprey on Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:22 pm

    Isos wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    They production line was shut down. And the jets that are left over, are only 60% available.

    They shut it down because the need disapeared with USSR collapse. 60% is not bad at all for such a complexe fighter.

    Wrong, they shut it down because they decided not to sell the F-22 to any US ally.    The US was selling F-18s after 1991
    and is now selling the F-35.   (The F-35 is not a replacement for the F-22).  


    Yes they shut it down because no need for them anymore and they didn't want to export them. Not because it was a faillure like the other said above.

    Excuse

    If the program wasn't such an epic failure, they would have just turned the production down to a minimum level- because of the USSR collapse. The main factor for the ending of the program was because of costs and inefficiency. Not the Soviet collapse
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    In the meantime landing ship of the Russian Pacific Fleet 'Oslabya' just ran aground:

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3264685.html

    Now tell me, what will Russian Navy replace it with and how many decades from now?

    They should just swallow their undeserved pride, call Indonesians and end this misery already...

    ????????

    Google translate wrote:the large landing ship of the Pacific Fleet Oslyabya allowed touching the soil with the aft part of the hull in the bay Ketovaya near Vladivostok. " N. Voskresensky also said that "the ship did not receive any damage" and that "in the near future Oslabya ​​will return to the point of basing."

    Pact her up and send her back to the field.

    Also aren't there 2 Ivan Rogov-class ships in reserve?
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:22 pm

    If the program wasn't such an epic failure, they would have just turned the production down to a minimum level- because of the USSR collapse. The main factor for the ending of the program was because of costs and inefficiency. Not the Soviet collapse

    It is a very good air superiority plateform. The end of the USSR meant that they don't need more of them. 200 is more than enough because price and cost were not worth buying more for no big threat anymore. It is better than any other fighter in air to air until su-35 and su-57 came into production.

    F-35 is a failure not f-22. Cost was never an issue for USA. They make other pay like with f-35 or f-15.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:21 am

    Isos wrote:
    If the program wasn't such an epic failure, they would have just turned the production down to a minimum level- because of the USSR collapse. The main factor for the ending of the program was because of costs and inefficiency. Not the Soviet collapse

    It is a very good air superiority plateform. The end of the USSR meant that they don't need more of them. 200 is more than enough because price and cost were not worth buying more for no big threat anymore. It is better than any other fighter in air to air until su-35 and su-57 came into production.

    F-35 is a failure not f-22. Cost was never an issue for USA. They make other pay like with f-35 or f-15.

    It is absolute failure as air superiority platform.

    The main requirement to be an air superiority platform is to train the pilots at least 120 hours per year, preferably for 200 hours.


    An aircraft that has low reliability AND high per flight hour cost can not have well trained pilots, means it can not function as air superiority platform.

    And I have a feeling about that the stealth characteristic of the airplane IF they want to use it require more training than you can expect in the case of a normal aircraft.

    Means an F-1X fighter jet can outperform them in real combat, not because of the characteristic of the airplane, but due to the skills of the pilots.

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    LMFS

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  LMFS on Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:58 am

    Isos wrote:
    They shut it down because the need disapeared with USSR collapse. 60% is not bad at all for such a complexe fighter.
    It collapsed 15 years before the F-22 was declared operational, they could have spared the whole program then.

    Isos wrote:
    Many upgraded f-15, 200 newer f-15E, 196 f-22, 1256 f-16 c/d and 500 f-18 superhornet compared to 48 su-35 and 90 su-30sm plus what is left of su-27 and mig-31, any wealthy man would take the first one.

    US has the advantage of numbers. It's not being fan of one or the other country, its reality.
    The point was, after talking and talking about the advantages of 5G and putting down Russia for not having them, 4G fighters are still the back bone of the USAF. Meanwhile, Russia is criticized for planning to do exactly the same. F-22 was intended to replace F-15 and ended as little more than a sign of prestige, and therefore, not needed in numbers. So this 5G and above all the stealth myth is rather a PR stunt that has been used to subdue other countries out of fear of being punished with a weapon that could not be countered. Therefore the hysterical reaction when "allied" countries choose the S-400 and the continuous attempts to ridicule the PAK-FA program. The myth of invincibility is going down the drain and with it the American primacy

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