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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

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    Austin

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Austin on Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:19 am

    First Analysis of Iz 30 engine by a Poster Iz 30 Engine
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:58 pm

    Zre those things sensors or intakes ? what are the big parts where they are ? Su-35 doesn't have this. It looks like it is hidding some tanker or some new sensors or maybe boosters to reach max speed pretty fast.



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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:55 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Absolutely great progress Very Happy . Now the T-50 has a much higher T/W ratio than the F-22 or any other fighter being designed.

    BTW is it possible for a serrated round nozzle to be made as stealthy as an f-22's flattened nozzle?

    Yes but they would have to sacrifice lot of thrust vector capability in that case

    Svyatoslavich

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:19 pm

    Isos wrote:Zre those things sensors or intakes ? what are the big parts where they are ? Su-35 doesn't have this. It looks like it is hidding some tanker or some new sensors or maybe boosters to reach max speed pretty fast.



    Intakes, probably for cooling auxiliary systems of the engines (hydraulic pumps, generator, etc). And yes, Flanker family also has small intakes in this position.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:37 pm

    Austin wrote:First Analysis of Iz 30 engine by a Poster Iz 30 Engine

    Interesting.

    His style of writing is a bit tedious, but was wondering is he an engineer or just a "enthusiast" ?
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    kvs

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:29 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Izd 30 is noticeably less smoky on full afterburner during takeoff.  That's a signature of a high tech engine delivering full combustion  Very Happy


    A lot of what you see is not smoke but NO2 (more generally NOx) that has a distinctive brown-red tint and looks like smoke. So they
    must have tuned the engine to reduce NOx emissions. Apparently, they are into conforming with EPA standards Smile

    Azi

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Azi on Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:21 pm

    kvs wrote:A lot of what you see is not smoke but NO2 (more generally NOx) that has a distinctive brown-red tint and looks like smoke.    So they
    must have tuned the engine to reduce NOx emissions.  Apparently, they are into conforming with EPA standards Smile
    Less NOx gases means...less temperature! I think that the new engine will have a great IR signature and very hard target for IR guided missiles.
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    MC-21

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  MC-21 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:10 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    MC-21 wrote:

    OK folks, now we have new engine that is quite a bit shorter than old one. Here is a pic of airframe with covered engines. Once they put new engine in airframe like this one only thing that will be sticking out will be tip of the nozzle.

    So one more nail in the coffin of the old ''Russia cannot into stealth'' fairytale.




    Someone cold draw how the whole thing will fit now that we have both covers and engine size.
    nice
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:29 am

    DIRCMS should virtually eliminate the threat or IR and IIR and optically guided missiles.


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    MC-21

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  MC-21 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:38 am

    GarryB wrote:DIRCMS should virtually eliminate the threat or IR and IIR and optically guided missiles.
    how do you know?
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:36 am

    I the T-50's low rear visibility a disadvantage in WVR combat?

    Also a very nice artwork that takes the serrated nozzles into account russia
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    MC-21

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  MC-21 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:08 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I the T-50's low rear visibility a disadvantage in WVR combat?

    Also a very nice artwork that takes the serrated nozzles into account russia
    nice picture
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    MC-21

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  MC-21 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:21 pm




    minute 7:20 to minute 8:20



    Speed 3000km/h supercruise Mach  2.1
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:05 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I the T-50's low rear visibility a disadvantage in WVR combat?

    Also a very nice artwork that takes the serrated nozzles into account russia

    Firedrake? Is that an official Russian designation? Hope so Very Happy

    Svyatoslavich

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:07 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Firedrake?  Is that an official Russian designation?  Hope so Very Happy
    No, it is a NATO codename:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_reporting_name
    As far as I know, none was assigned to the Su-57, as it makes no sense now when the original designation is public known. The last assigned I think was "Mitten" to the Yak-130.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:01 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I the T-50's low rear visibility a disadvantage in WVR combat?

    Also a very nice artwork that takes the serrated nozzles into account russia

    Nozzles are same length as old ones

    New ones are much shorter than in the pic
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:03 am

    how do you know?

    DIRCMS are IR lasers designed to dazzle IR and IIR and optical sensors in approaching missiles.... why would I think they wouldn't do what they are designed to do?

    Regarding the thrust vector nozzles flat nozzles were tested by the Russians quite some time ago and were rejected because of the increased IR signature and reduction in engine thrust they create. They also limit the engine to 2D thrust vector control.

    The serrated models are full 3D TVC and do not increase IR signature, while reducing RCS in the rear hemisphere.


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    MC-21

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  MC-21 on Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:57 am

    GarryB wrote:
    how do you know?

    DIRCMS are IR lasers designed to dazzle IR and IIR and optical sensors in approaching missiles.... why would I think they wouldn't do what they are designed to do?

    Regarding the thrust vector nozzles flat nozzles were tested by the Russians quite some time ago and were rejected because of the increased IR signature and reduction in engine thrust they create. They also limit the engine to 2D thrust vector control.

    The serrated models are full 3D TVC and do not increase IR signature, while reducing RCS in the rear hemisphere.
    thanks but  i think 2 D engines reduce IR signature at the expense of thrust, but for the rest thank you very much


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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:45 am

    The square shape is not natural so the cold bypass air going through the engine mixes more rapidly with the hot air going through the combustion chamber of the engine, which should reduce peak IR temperature, but not by very much... we are talking about fairly low bypass turbofans to allow super cruising.


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:34 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I the T-50's low rear cockpit visibility a disadvantage in WVR combat?


    Also can anyone give me a more detailed explanation of how nozzle stealth works? Stealth advantages vs disadvantages in serration. Can non serrated nozzles be made stealthy? Does the size of the serrations count? Are 2 nozzles less stealthy than 1? Is nozzle spacing important in stealth? Most sources I'v come across are  "USA FLAT NOZZLES STRONG SUBHUMAN SLAVS MAKE SHIT ROUND NOZZLES"

    And in conclusion, even if the F-22's nozzles are absolutely unbeatable in terms of stealth, will it still be less stealthy on its back and sides because its rudders are huge?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:48 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I the T-50's low rear cockpit visibility a disadvantage in WVR combat?


    Also can anyone give me a more detailed explanation of how nozzle stealth works? Stealth advantages vs disadvantages in serration. Can non serrated nozzles be made stealthy? Does the size of the serrations count? Are 2 nozzles less stealthy than 1? Is nozzle spacing important in stealth? Most sources I'v come across are  "USA FLAT NOZZLES STRONG SUBHUMAN SLAVS MAKE SHIT ROUND NOZZLES"

    And in conclusion, even if the F-22's nozzles are absolutely unbeatable in terms of stealth, will it still be less stealthy on its back and sides because its rudders are huge?

    It's also about materials. New ones are not made of same thing as the old ones.
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    MC-21

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  MC-21 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:13 am

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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:40 am

    The best description of stealth I have read was not about radar... it was about sunlight being reflected from the canopy of a helicopter.

    Now take the round bubble canopy of a Hughes 500 and the flat panels of an Mi-28N.

    Think of the sunlight reflecting in both those canopies.

    The round bubble canopy of the Hughes 500 means that from almost any angle you view that helo you will see the bright spot of the sun reflected in that transparency and continuously being able to see the reflected sunlight means you could easily spot the helo and track its movements because the reflection of the sun is continuously visible and easy to see.

    With the flat plate transparancies of the Mi-28N from most angles you will not see the sun reflected... only very specific angles will you see a large sun reflected in one pane, but assuming the helo is flying and manouvering even if you see a flash of sunlight you wont see it for long, so while you might detect glimpses of the sun actually tracking the movement of the helo by tracking the reflection of the sun in its canopy is not possible.

    The nozzle of the engine is the same... from most angles you get a reflection from the entire ring of the nozzle. WIth the sawtooth edge half the reflection is reflected one way and the other half reflected the other and only at very specific angles do you get an edge on reflection with a strong return... and even then because of the sawtooth nature of the surface half will always be hidden.

    It scatters the reflecting surface and reduces the reflecting surface area to reduce any radar return you might receive from your position.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

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    MC-21

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  MC-21 on Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:31 am

    The serial production of the fifth generation Su-57 fighter aircraft will begin in the Khabarovsk Territory in 2018

    "The plant is finishing trials this year, and next year will begin mass production," the region's governor Vyacheslav Shport said on Wednesday, answering TASS's question.
    He noted that the issue of including the aircraft in the state program of armaments for delivery to the Russian troops, work at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant named after Gagarin (KnAAZ) is now being decided on schedule. "This issue has been resolved, there are no problems there, everything is on schedule," the governor added.http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4808309
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    MC-21

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  MC-21 on Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:35 pm


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