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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

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    JohninMK

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:18 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Maybe their analysis of the F-22's actual 'invisibility', now that they have been able to monitor it for quite a while with their array of radars, shows that stealth is of marginal benefit in a defensive scenario.

    Stealth is most important for snipers... for other troops it is useful but not everything.

    The US wants an air force full of trained snipers with long range weapons that allow standoff fighting... really their ultimate aircraft is the unmanned armed drone.

    For Russia, they know snipers are force multipliers and devastating in specific situations, but more use in COIN type ops to minimise civilian casualties.

    In real wars a sniper is useful but cannot take or hold territory so their usefulness is very limited and specific.

    Of course if you think snipers are no use for defence then have a chat to the Finns... a good defence is better if it inflicts damage on the enemy and snipers are able to inflict damage on an enemy...

    Of course machine guns and artillery tend to be very effective too... and lets face it... when in stealth mode US stealth fighters are bolt action rifles with 5 shot mags, while MiG-35s an Su-35s and MiG-31s are assault rifles and machine guns...

    I would have thought that Russia's SAMs are pretty good snipers. A quite different unmanned drone in some ways.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:50 am

    Rmf wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What's the reason hat sukhoi chose less stealthy podded engines instead of going for a flat belly like the F-22 or MiG-1.44?
    well theres the reason, podded engine gives you flexibility and upgrade potential, stealth aircraft has tight tolerances and in f-22 engines are integraqted into airframe thus fixed and intakes are fixed , so no way to upgrade untill end of service life, with podded engine you can change engine size or intakes somewhat and thus you can upgrade engines and swap them faster , russians knew they wouldnt have definitive engine ready so they used that method , so in 2017 117s engines , then 2020 izd30 engines ,then in 2030 some new engines , so all in all pak-fa will inch further away from f-22 over time etc...

    He's wrong. The podded engines are better for stealth. They are part of the reason why the YF 23 was more stealthy than the Raptor
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:55 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    Rmf wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What's the reason hat sukhoi chose less stealthy podded engines instead of going for a flat belly like the F-22 or MiG-1.44?
    well theres the reason, podded engine gives you flexibility and upgrade potential, stealth aircraft has tight tolerances and in f-22 engines are integraqted into airframe thus fixed and intakes are fixed , so no way to upgrade untill end of service life, with podded engine you can change engine size or intakes somewhat and thus you can upgrade engines and swap them faster , russians knew they wouldnt have definitive engine ready so they used that method , so in 2017 117s engines , then 2020 izd30 engines ,then in 2030 some new engines , so all in all pak-fa will inch further away from f-22 over time etc...
    A disadvantage of the podded approach is that it does not create the same large size cavities for inboard weapons, particularly between the engines.

    But then the latest news on series production could show that Moscow does not believe that stealth is of sufficient importance to the tasks that their aircraft have to perform when defending Russia that they are going to spend the money and actually make some. Maybe their analysis of the F-22's actual 'invisibility', now that they have been able to monitor it for quite a while with their array of radars, shows that stealth is of marginal benefit in a defensive scenario.

    The Pak Fa is designated stealth. The tender stipulated stealth as an integral part of the program.
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Maybe their analysis of the F-22's actual 'invisibility', now that they have been able to monitor it for quite a while with their array of radars, shows that stealth is of marginal benefit in a defensive scenario.

    Stealth is most important for snipers... for other troops it is useful but not everything.

    The US wants an air force full of trained snipers with long range weapons that allow standoff fighting... really their ultimate aircraft is the unmanned armed drone.

    The second most important for sniper is that, he need excellent vision and accuracy to hit the target from long range, for aircraft that is radar and avionics.

    The US fighter radar is inferior to USSR/Russia. F-15's radar is 60-70cm diameter, in comparison with Su-30/35 96cm radar, and MiG-25/31 110-140 cm radar, and T-50 10 metre radar on the wings.

    Not to mention that MiG-25/31 can utilize the comparison of distance between radars to calculate the position of the target, and this method significantly ignore the angular resolution of the radar and enable the use of low-band waves to detect stealth units.

    In fact I think MiG-25/31 are competent snipers, too.
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    kvs

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:05 pm

    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    kvs wrote:Indeed.  The PAK-FA is till waiting for its proper engine.   After it gets it, there will have to be yet another testing period
    to see if the frame and engine accommodate each other.    Date fags can jump around like chimps all they want.

    The new engine testing will be mostly about the engine. The airframe is already designed to accommodate all the parameters of the new engine.

    Unfortunately they can't predict the full spectrum of vibration harmonics of the new engine. So how the engine interacts with the frame cannot be determined
    a priori, but I am sure that all efforts are made to minimize problems. I don't expect major hardware revisions but testing needs to be done anyway.
    If we were in them middle of a conventional WWIII then cutting corners on testing could be expected and rushing to meet deadlines would be
    paramount. But we are not in such a situation so all the whiners and complainers can just bugger off.

    Also, I don't see any race between China and Russia for who produces their stealth fighter first. This is yet another concoction of internet fanbois
    who have too much time on their hands and need to get a job.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:46 am

    kvs wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    kvs wrote:Indeed.  The PAK-FA is till waiting for its proper engine.   After it gets it, there will have to be yet another testing period
    to see if the frame and engine accommodate each other.    Date fags can jump around like chimps all they want.

    The new engine testing will be mostly about the engine. The airframe is already designed to accommodate all the parameters of the new engine.


    Also, I don't see any race between China and Russia for who produces their stealth fighter first.   This is yet another concoction of internet fanbois
    who have too much time on their hands and need to get a job.

    I see with regularity, US and Cina fanboys taking cheap shots and implying that the Pak Fa is in some development crisis. So I was just pointing out that no such crisis exists and all of the aircraft took about the same time to develop from prototype winner stage to the commission stage.

    Plus part of the reason the US discontinued the Raptor was because of the precieved long development times of China/Russia 5th gen fighters. So its not as petty as you make it out to be.

    Austin

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:35 pm

    Rmf wrote:stealth deteriorate over time ,0,1m2 is best guess.

    0.1m2 from any specific angle ? I mean will be it 0.1m2 from front , size , aft and top view ?
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:03 pm

    Russia’s PAK FA 5th-generation jet with new engine to make maiden flight in 2017

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/930699


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    George1

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:27 pm



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    Austin

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:46 pm

    Longish Interview , Must Read

    Scientific director of the State Research Institute of Aviation Systems (GosNIIAS),YEVGENY FEDOSOV ABOUT THE PROSPECTS OF MILITARY AVIATION


    https://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2017/02/27/422309.html
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    Rmf

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Rmf on Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:37 pm

    Austin wrote:
    Rmf wrote:stealth deteriorate over time ,0,1m2 is best guess.

    0.1m2 from any specific angle ? I mean will be it 0.1m2 from front , size , aft and top view ?
    yes i am using book from latest and simulations from direct evidence 0,01 front -0,1 rear , medium 0.025 m²),
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:14 pm

    Trials of second-stage engine for Russia’s 5th generation fighter jet to begin in 2018

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/933350


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    Benya

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Benya on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:04 pm

    George1 wrote:Trials of second-stage engine for Russia’s 5th generation fighter jet to begin in 2018

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/933350

    What does this mean? Maybe the testing of the new izdeliye 30 engine?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:33 am

    That is exactly what it means. They are getting the prototypes this year but after fitting and what not, it will be next year by the time for testing. Hence why they are saying they will order after 2020 since lack of budget after ordering more of current planes this year. So they are not speeding up testing since they will wait till sap2025 is agreed upon.
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    hoom

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:53 am

    Cue several National Interest headlines: "Is PAK-FA dead?", "Why Putin Killed PAK-FA" "Why the US fears Russias' new stealth super-fighter but maybe they shouldn't" Rolling Eyes

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  yavar on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:30 pm

    when do people first patch of T50 will be ready and be passed on to RAF
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:44 pm

    yavar wrote:when do people first patch of T50 will be ready and be passed on to RAF

    introduce yourself first please

    http://www.russiadefence.net/f6-member-introductions-and-rules


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    HM1199

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  HM1199 on Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:21 pm

    Hello guys , so im in the process of making a video called "busting myths about the pak fa" that will refute / respond to most of the claims that were blurted against it and that were spread for so long .
    however i need help about something , its to refute the claim that the pak fa "isnt stealth" .
    first of all , can you give me sources or clarification about the rcs of the pak fa ? as far as i found the pak fa's rcs is about 0.3 - 0.4 sqm , but more interestingly , the f22 has the same signature by the same standards , can someone give me details or sources about this ?
    Second of all , the pak fa's engines have radar blockers , correct?
    Thank you in advance .

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:40 am

    HM1199 wrote:Hello guys  , so im in the process of making a video called "busting myths about the pak fa" that will refute / respond to most of the claims that were blurted against it and that were spread for so long .
    however i need help about something , its  to refute the claim that the pak fa "isnt stealth" .
    first of all , can you give me sources or clarification about the rcs of the pak fa ? as far as i found the pak fa's rcs is about 0.3 - 0.4 sqm , but more interestingly , the f22 has the same signature by the same standards , can someone give me details or sources about this ?
    Second of all  , the pak fa's engines have radar blockers , correct?
    Thank you in advance .

    Several times have read from more than one source.. including this forum ,
    that Pak-fa final design engines will have radar blockers for the tail of the engines ,
    to make it more stealthy . And the numbers can't remember well the exact ones..
    But a sukhoi Engineer latest update , i thin it was sputnik report or other russian media.
    that According to himPak-fa will better than F-22 , not just in average functionality and features ,but also now will be also more stealthy too. The figures numbers he gave of Pak-fa was like 0.3-0.4 and about .2 to .6 to F-22. So most of the times PAK-fa will have a slower signature than F-22.

    Russians measure RCS in a different way that Americans do it. and under their own numbers .
    Pak-fa is more stealthy. and as you know Pak-fa not only will have shaped stealth features. but also special skin surface the plane ,that will significantly reduce the radar signature. Russia
    government also have said in recent past , that no plane is totally invisible to radars technology ,to see "stealth" planes like F-22 ,B2 or even Pak-FA like if they were world war 2 era planes.


    So his claims make me think that.
    1)The features of Pak-fa was continuesly evolving. being upgraded
    2)that his later stealth claims ,have to be based on the developments they
    achieved on the final engine.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  HM1199 on Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:33 pm

    http://sneg5.com/forum/7-163-1
    according to this interview the pak fa has a signature of around 0.1 - 1 sqm , while the f22 has around 0.3 - 0.4 sqm .
    Also , one other important aspect , the video will also cover the indian claims about the pak fa , in the past indians said some sassy stuff about it , but i recall seeing articles saying that pak fa is independent from the indians in a technical point of view , what indians have is the fgfa , a different aircraft and precisely the pak fa , and that the indians indians never actually got their hands over the pak fa , is this correct ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:23 am

    Think of it in terms of the Su-30MKI.

    It will be based on the PAK FA, but most of the technology and equipment will be decided by India and may include european and israeli stuff as well as possibly a bit of Indian developed stuff too.

    Any Russian stuff will not necessarily include everything they have available... though that is not always a bad thing.

    Remember that while Russia is now spending money on defence they cant afford to lavish money on everything so Indian funding and support can end up developing new kit and weapons and equipment...

    A good example is Brahmos. Brahmos is based on the export missile Yakhont which is a reduced performance Onyx missile intended for export. It has limits in range and payload and was originally just an anti ship missile.

    Development of the Brahmos has improved performance... in particular guidance options which now allow land attack performance... a capability likely added to Russian missiles... and note Russia does not use Yakhont... that is an export limited model... the guidance and seeker improvements would be applied to the Onyx which likely has much better range performance...


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    HM1199

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  HM1199 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:50 pm

    thank you for the information garryB , and one last thing , those indian criticisms about the pak fa , it is based on what ? and are they really correct ???
    because the video is intending to refute their claims .
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    kvs

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:40 pm

    HM1199 wrote:Hello guys  , so im in the process of making a video called "busting myths about the pak fa" that will refute / respond to most of the claims that were blurted against it and that were spread for so long .
    however i need help about something , its  to refute the claim that the pak fa "isnt stealth" .
    first of all , can you give me sources or clarification about the rcs of the pak fa ? as far as i found the pak fa's rcs is about 0.3 - 0.4 sqm , but more interestingly , the f22 has the same signature by the same standards , can someone give me details or sources about this ?
    Second of all  , the pak fa's engines have radar blockers , correct?
    Thank you in advance .

    These sources and their numbers are not credible. A proper source would detail the simulations they did and produce tables of the output
    just as done in the book discussed in the PAK-DA thread. It was basically proven that the B-2 numbers being bandied about (less than
    0.05 m^2) are utter rubbish even with RAM taken into account.

    When I see a number range like 0.3-0.4 m^2 without any key additional information, e.g. from what angle of incidence, I can tell that it
    is crap. The average RCS from all angles would be much higher as is the case for the B-2. The F-22 has massive rudders which make
    its side cross section much larger than the PAK-FA (i.e. there was a stealth reason why the PAK-FA has such small rudders). So there
    is no way the F-22 would have less RCS than the PAK-FA from the sides. Without considering the angle of incidence the RCS discussion
    is utterly meaningless.

    HM1199

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  HM1199 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:08 pm

    wait ill go check the pak da thread then !
    and what about the criticism of the indians ? why are they so harsh towards the pak fa ? and are they true in their criticism,
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:33 pm

    HM1199 wrote:wait ill go check the pak da thread then !
    and what about the criticism of the indians ? why are they so harsh towards the pak fa ? and are they true in their criticism,

    Most of the criticism was reported by western media. They say that Indians  think Pak Fa is outdated, not ready, not good ... but what they actually said is that they are not happy with Sukhoi not giving them access to all the technologies, just some parts.

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