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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue May 30, 2017 6:43 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:While carrying  long range AAMs is a great advantage, its still a shame that the T-50 cant carry 6 R-77s like the F-22 can use 6 AMRAAMs.

    What?  Why don't you try counting hardpoints.  Key point here - internal weapons bay too.
    The T-50 has only 4 internal hardpoints for heavy weapons. The other 2 are only for short range AAMs.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 30, 2017 8:33 am

    Hardpoints aren't limited anymore. This was evident for years on Su-35 and 30. There are 4 hardpoints on the wings as we are aware (unsure what looks like a capsule) and a few internally. The PAK FA is adjustable for the mission. Purpose of the jet is similar to Su-30. Multiroll in its finest.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue May 30, 2017 8:54 am

    I'm talking about internal stealthy hardpoints.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 30, 2017 11:28 am

    The four internal hard points for heavy missiles are for R-37Ms.

    In other words you can have 4 x 300km range AA missiles.

    One presumes that if you are carrying smaller missiles like the R-77 then more can be carried... 6 or even 8 missiles.

    The R-37M is a very large missile, while the R-77 is a long slim missile with folding rear grid fin flight controls... I would suspect that two mounted high and two mounted lower would allow four R-77s in each weapon bay... the R-77 launch pylon includes a ram arm that throws the missile downwards on launch, so the same mechanism on an internal weapons bay should be perfectly feasible...

    Four per weapon bay means 8 internal AAMs of medium range or 2 long range and 4 medium range and two short range in the wing mounted internal bays.

    The Morfei short range IIR guided missile will use a vectored thrust rocket motor with little to no need for multiple large external control surfaces...

    And that is not even adding the external weapon points.

    Of course the PAK FA will likely be operating with Su-35s with plenty of external weapons pylons anyway.


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    Cheetah

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Cheetah on Wed May 31, 2017 1:22 am

    GarryB wrote:the R-77 is a long slim missile with folding rear grid fin flight controls

    I was under the impression that they were producing an R-77 model with conventional fins, specifically for the T-50.

    As stated by Wikipedia
    K-77M (izdeliye 180) - Highly improved variant [of the R-77] for the PAK FA with AESA seeker, conventional fins, and two-pulse motor.
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-77
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 31, 2017 11:35 am

    That was reportedly to reduce RCS on an external pylon... ie it would be more of an issue for Su-34 and Su-35.

    For PAK FA the rear grid fins fold forward for internal carriage and the ram mechanism in the launch pylon ensures clean separation from the aircraft.

    The grid fins offer higher manouver performance in the terminal attack phase for the missile so it can hit targets pulling 12g without stalling.


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    Vann7

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:43 am

    In real world combat , nothing stop Russia from using both internal and external missiles
    at same time to increase the fighting capabilities for longer and attack more enemies.
    In situations that you are not invading enemy airspace and no stealth jets around to be afraid
    that can be an option.

    So you use first the non stealthy missiles deployed externally and later the internal ones.
    In Syria case for example ..in Russia really wants to test pak-fa in Syria weather conditions,
    or lets say in Egypt to bomb Lybia terrorist across border. Russia can arm a Pak-fa air to air weapons internally. and the air to ground externally. So once you drop in a surprise attack
    all your external bombs on ISIS ,you can still have air to air combat and stealth capabilities intact , in case a NATO plane wants to pick a fight. then Pak-fa can drop all its external bombs.
    for greater radar evasion capabilities.

    Other situations could be in Russia territory to bomb terrorist concentrated in a zone.
    and Russia wants to test Pak-fa is real combat .it can arm internally and externally the plane
    with bombs. since stealthiness not need. SAme if asked for help by Belarus,IRAN or any other ally.  So those limitations of Pak-fa in weapons storage capability are only in cases ,where there
    are other stealth planes from hostile nations in the zone or dangerous air defenses deployed ,that needs to evade pak-fa.  But i can see cases where Russia combine external and internal to increase the offensive capabilities to the ultimate limits.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:31 pm

    Nice frontal view...

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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:That was reportedly to reduce RCS on an external pylon... ie it would be more of an issue for Su-34 and Su-35.

    For PAK FA the rear grid fins fold forward for internal carriage and the ram mechanism in the launch pylon ensures clean separation from the aircraft.

    The grid fins offer higher manouver performance in the terminal attack phase for the missile so it can hit targets pulling 12g without stalling.

    An IR R-77 would be better for fighting F-35/22. The radar guided won't be usefull against them idem for AMRAAM against pak fa. R-27 IR on external pylons will totaly degrade the stealth.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:54 pm

    Making long range missiles IR would be a mistake. Add to that, they can use various receivers that gain info from various radar sources. You still need the jet to lock on
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:The four internal hard points for heavy missiles are for R-37Ms.

    In other words you can have 4 x 300km range AA missiles.

    One presumes that if you are carrying smaller missiles like the R-77 then more can be carried... 6 or even 8 missiles.

    The R-37M is a very large missile, while the R-77 is a long slim missile with folding rear grid fin flight controls... I would suspect that two mounted high and two mounted lower would allow four R-77s in each weapon bay... the R-77 launch pylon includes a ram arm that throws the missile downwards on launch, so the same mechanism on an internal weapons bay should be perfectly feasible...

    Four per weapon bay means 8 internal AAMs of medium range or 2 long range and 4 medium range and two short range in the wing mounted internal bays.

    The Morfei short range IIR guided missile will use a vectored thrust rocket motor with little to no need for multiple large external control surfaces...

    And that is not even adding the external weapon points.

    Of course the PAK FA will likely be operating with Su-35s with plenty of external weapons pylons anyway.

    If what you're saying is true then the T-50 could have a total of 16 R-77s in internal hardpoints(4 per bay). That would be an unprecedented loadout. I really hope that this isn't an overestimation.

    That said even if the numbers are lower that would still be the heaviest stealthy load put on a fighter.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:13 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Making long range missiles IR would be a mistake. Add to that, they can use various receivers that gain info from various radar sources. You still need the jet to lock on

    Won't the F-22/35's AESA radar burn out the ARH antenna on a missile, making it unguided?
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:06 pm

    miketheterrible wrote: Add to that, they can use various receivers that gain info from various radar sources. You still need the jet to lock on

    Not better. Not even possible. You would need a powerfull datalinks between your plane and your missile and the ground and the AWACS... The processor in the missile won't have the time needed to run all these informations. Plus the jamming would be much easier as your system is more complicated.

    While with a nice datalink between the Pak fa and the missile you can send it close (10km) to the target and then switch on IR sensor. No need to lock on just scan and the target won't even know you lunched a missile.
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    Cheetah

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Cheetah on Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:35 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Making long range missiles IR would be a mistake. Add to that, they can use various receivers that gain info from various radar sources. You still need the jet to lock on

    The R-27T and ET are already medium-long ranged AAMs which rely on IR guidance. And in cooperation with the aircraft's IRST, there is no need for radar at all. What's more, is that IR guidance means that the theoretical target's RWR will not sound, and so an IR missile is considerably more subtle than a radar guided missile.

    That said, the EOS on the T-50 far exceed that of the Su-27 and its family members. Instead of the ~40km rear hemisphere limit that the Su-27's EOS had, the T-50 may have something substantially bigger. Just for ballpark numbers, the French Rafale has a similar EOS with a detection range marked at 90km. Assuming that's not BS, the T-50 ought to have something near that, if not outright exceeding it.

    In conclusion, a long ranged IR missile may be of benefit, otherwise, why implement an EOS on the T-50. Sure, you could argue it is for the closer engagements with the R-73s and Co. but that would be a very narrow sighted view when the system could potentially add much more to the table.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:39 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Making long range missiles IR would be a mistake. Add to that, they can use various receivers that gain info from various radar sources. You still need the jet to lock on

    Won't the F-22/35's AESA radar burn out the ARH antenna on a missile, making it unguided?

    Fantasy much?  The radars on them are not powerful enough and the T/R modules have a usual failure rate of about 10% or higher.  At that, if they "burned" like that, then they light up like a Christmas tree anyway for any kind of sensor system.

    Cheetah wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Making long range missiles IR would be a mistake. Add to that, they can use various receivers that gain info from various radar sources. You still need the jet to lock on

    The R-27T and ET are already medium-long ranged AAMs which rely on IR guidance. And in cooperation with the aircraft's IRST, there is no need for radar at all. What's more, is that IR guidance means that the theoretical target's RWR will not sound, and so an IR missile is considerably more subtle than a radar guided missile.

    That said, the EOS on the T-50 far exceed that of the Su-27 and its family members. Instead of the ~40km rear hemisphere limit that the Su-27's EOS had, the T-50 may have something substantially bigger. Just for ballpark numbers, the French Rafale has a similar EOS with a detection range marked at 90km. Assuming that's not BS, the T-50 ought to have something near that, if not outright exceeding it.

    In conclusion, a long ranged IR missile may be of benefit, otherwise, why implement an EOS on the T-50. Sure, you could argue it is for the closer engagements with the R-73s and Co. but that would be a very narrow sighted view when the system could potentially add much more to the table.

    Distance the issue. Launch it, missile will have a hard time keeping track of the target especially if it changes position. That is the major problem with long range IIR systems. Hence why most of them are short range. For something longer range, you need a system that will be monitoring the skies frequently and scanning it. IRST on the plane can but it cannot scan at the same ranges nor as quickly as the onboard radar.
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Cheetah on Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:00 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Distance the issue. Launch it, missile will have a hard time keeping track of the target especially if it changes position. That is the major problem with long range IIR systems. Hence why most of them are short range.

    Who is to say? shouldn't this existence of missiles such as the R-27ET (Which have been seen on Russian aircraft in Syria) refute that? IR and radar guided missiles are not so different as you make them seem. They both track an emission based on the electromagnetic spectrum. The major difference is that radar missiles are an active seeker, while IR missiles are a passive seeker. My point being that both technologies could be theoretically refined to the point where they perform equally as well as each other. Give an IR missile a sensitive seeker and some complex software and it'll track just as well as a radar guided missile, with the added advantage of it being a passive seeker, meaning that it will not inform the target of its tracking.

    It seems to me that IR seekers are becoming more and more advanced, such to the point that countermeasures such as flares are becoming obsolete as the seekers are becoming more sensitive and harder to fool. So why not employ this at longer ranges? why not refine a seeker design so that it is capable of functioning at longer ranges?

    Muse for a moment on the theoretical scenario of the potential for such a missile when employed against an F-35, which by the way, does little to cover its infrared tracks. A long ranged IR missile may just keep lock where a radar missile would fail.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:18 pm

    Cheetah wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Distance the issue. Launch it, missile will have a hard time keeping track of the target especially if it changes position. That is the major problem with long range IIR systems. Hence why most of them are short range.

    Who is to say? shouldn't this existence of missiles such as the R-27ET (Which have been seen on Russian aircraft in Syria) refute that? IR and radar guided missiles are not so different as you make them seem. They both track an emission based on the electromagnetic spectrum. The major difference is that radar missiles are an active seeker, while IR missiles are a passive seeker. My point being that both technologies could be theoretically refined to the point where they perform equally as well as each other. Give an IR missile a sensitive seeker and some complex software and it'll track just as well as a radar guided missile, with the added advantage of it being a passive seeker, meaning that it will not inform the target of its tracking.

    It seems to me that IR seekers are becoming more and more advanced, such to the point that countermeasures such as flares are becoming obsolete as the seekers are becoming more sensitive and harder to fool. So why not employ this at longer ranges? why not refine a seeker design so that it is capable of functioning at longer ranges?

    Muse for a moment on the theoretical scenario of the potential for such a missile when employed against an F-35, which by the way, does little to cover its infrared tracks. A long ranged IR missile may just keep lock where a radar missile would fail.

    I guess you could but they have to be within a certain range to be able to pick up the IR signature of the plane, which could be very short and a very narrow field while Radar has a much larger scanning field and much longer range in detection and tracking.
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:13 am

    If what you're saying is true then the T-50 could have a total of 16 R-77s in internal hardpoints(4 per bay). That would be an unprecedented loadout. I really hope that this isn't an overestimation.

    What are you talking about?

    The two body mounted weapon bays will likely take 3-4 R-77s each... that is 6-8 missiles.

    The wing mounted missile positions are for small short range IIR guided missiles... ie Morfei fire and forget missiles.

    The best load out will be 8 R-77s in the two large internal weapons bays, perhaps 4 R-37s on the external weapons pylons and two Morfei Short range IIR guided missiles in the wing bay positions.

    Regarding long range IR guided missiles... older missiles like the IR guided R-40TD and R-27ET were for chasing down targets from the rear, or targets with spectacular IR signatures like the SR-71.

    The new short range IIR guided missile will be called morfei and will be a lock on after launch missile.

    Sitting inside a weapon bay, it wont see its target until after it is launched.

    It will likely use a combination of datalink with the launch aircraft and an onboard digital database of 3D IR signatures, which it will use to detect targets and engage them.

    These missiles will be more sophisticated than the older IR missiles that had to be fired first to ensure they did not lock on to the SARH missiles that were also fired at the target.

    These missiles see images and use image processing software... the same sort of technology on a Kamov Ka-52 that will put target boxes around moving targets on the ground so you can fire missiles or cannon at them...


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    Vann7

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:05 pm

    More about Pak-fa Radio photonic radars by KRET...
    really Interesting cool stuff must read... probably one area
    where Russia will be revolutionize the world of modern warfare.


    Radio-photonics is a promising scientific field that in the future will determine the development of dual-use technologies throughout the entire world,” said Nikolai Kolesov, CEO of KRET. “For Russia, this is a huge scientific and technological breakthrough that will facilitate the transition to the sixth technological generation."

    By 2020, with the help of the latest technologies, KRET plans to create effective and advanced two-way radio, radar, and other radio-frequency systems that will replace those currently in existence. For example, the use of systems of radio-optical phased array antennas in the long term will enable the construction of a network of unique, synchronized space and ground radio-telescopes and will also be used to cover the fuselage of aircraft and helicopters with a new kind of “smart” skin.

    Radars based on radio-optical phased array antennas will be installed on Russia’s fifth-generation PAK FA fighter and a number of other manned and unmanned aircraft, as well as naval platforms such as radar stations of ships and submarines.

    Radio-optical phased array antenna systems will reduce the weight and size of electronic equipment by 5-7 times. Moreover, these modern antennas will also serve as a future radar.



    Thanks to radio-optical phased array antennas, the resolving power of communications systems and radar will increase tenfold. If modern radar has a radar radiation frequency of 10 GHz, with a 3 cm wide range of 1-2 GHz, then the radio-optical phased array antennas will be able to simultaneously operate at this frequency at a range from 1 Hz to 100 GHz.

    In other words, radio-optical phased array antennas will be capable of carrying out a kind of "X-ray vision" of planes located at a distance of over 500 kilometers, producing a detailed, three-dimensional image.  Moreover, since the signal is able to penetrate any obstacle, including a lead wall a meter thick, this technology can look inside a target to find out what equipment it carries, determine how many people are there, and even see their faces.



    http://rostec.ru/en/research/tecnology/4517645

    So this report the full version one ,states ,that Russian scientist are working/believe
    that is possible to bypass the decades of leadership of the west in microelectronics , and takes
    things to a whole new Level ,with a much superior form of transfer of energy and communications. that literary give any equipment 10x times for power and a Xray like vision
    up to 500km away. and that this form of communications cannot be jammed ,manipulated or be interfered . with any previous modern generation electronics.. Because Photons do not have electric charge contrary to electrons and cannot be interfered by Magnetic fields or lighting or any electronic attacks.  Imagine such a thing.. in security will be epic. .Russia will have the capability to monitor what is inside NATO warships ,if they are armed with nukes and how many people inside. This also means the end of Submarine stealth ? Since such technology radio photonics,will be able to detect submarines deep under water as if was a very powerful xray scanner. Smile and detect how many people are inside.. truly amazing. Also terrorist will be
    unable to hide in forest. or inside caves.  In Syria this will be totally Revolutionary for combat.


    Imagine this hellicopters or tanks with Radio Photonics will be able to see inside houses with xray vision ,and see if there are terrorist inside ,if there are armed with rocket grenades ,if there are civilians and even see their faces. Shocked  

    so powerful are photonic radars , that multi story buildings radars Russia use ,for long range
    distance ,can be replaced with a pickup TRuck and produce the same power. in a photonic version of it.

    So no longer ISIS will find a place to hide. not inside cities ,not behind any hill ,houses and neither underground in tunnels.  Not mentioning underwater scuba divers will be dead meat.

    terrorist they will be detected either by tanks or hellicopters or drones photonic radars if look on their direction. Wow!!!and this does not end here. this will be able to detect suicide bombers from far away distances to see if they carry explosives in their car. and the radars displays of photonic scanners ,should be even more impressive ,because the type of plane flying will be seen in radar by visual representation. in 3d.. This means that F-22 or F-35 stealth technology will become totally useless and be seen as if they were world war 2 planes. because the radar evasion tactics will not work with photon long distance scanners. and not mentioning Russia can also block enemy communications and theirs not blocked.  This will totally be a game changing weapon in world battlefields.  can't wait.
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:05 am



    _________________
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    George1

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  George1 on Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:45 am

    KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR, June 5. /TASS/. The Sukhoi aircraft company will produce in 2017 two more Russia’s newest PAK FA (T-50) fighters, Russia’s Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Monday.

    "The work on PAK FA is now at the final stage, and this year we receive the 10th and the 11th planes, which will be tested, and in the future state armament program for 2018-2025 we plan first purchases of T-50 fighters," he said during a visit to the Gagarin aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-om-Amur.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/949838


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:15 am

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:57 pm


    RussianDefence.com‏ @Russian_Defence 10h10 hours ago
    Replying to @Russian_Defence

    More #MAKS2017 by Marina Lystseva. Note #PAKFA 052 with a new pair of LERX/blended canards http://fotografersha.livejournal.com/912208.html


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    George1

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:02 pm

    ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow Region), July 19. /TASS/. The pre-production batch of T-50 fifth-generation fighter jets will equal 12 planes, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Head Yuri Slyusar said at the MAKS-2017 international airshow on Wednesday.

    "From the very outset, we proceeded from the fact that the final decision had been made on 12 planes," he said.
    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/956950


    ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow Region), July 19. /TASS/. The research and development work on Russia’s PAK FA (Perspective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) fighter jet (T-50) will be completed in 2019, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Chief Yuri Slyusar said at the MAKS-2017 international airshow on Wednesday.

    "In 2019, we should begin the delivery of a pre-production batch of [T-50] planes. This is the year when we should complete the R&D work on the PAK FA," he said.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/956948


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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:26 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    RussianDefence.com‏ @Russian_Defence 10h10 hours ago
    Replying to @Russian_Defence

    More #MAKS2017 by Marina Lystseva. Note #PAKFA 052 with a new pair of LERX/blended canards http://fotografersha.livejournal.com/912208.html



    The rear nose is different. I suppose the yellow one is the final design but the other seems to be for testing new equipement, maybe electronic warefare ?

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