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    Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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    Isos
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:42 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Isos wrote:[The range of anti air missiles is not the same when attacking an up coming target and a target going away from you, specialy a mach 2 Tu-22.

    A Tu-22M3 that has already spent its fuel to carry those AS-4(s) (low level flight is even worse) cannot afford to fly much at Mach 2.0 all that while evading incoming too.

    Concerning Tu-142 and Il-38s, well there's only a dozen of the former and maybe less than two dozens of the later. Their low numbers are hardly a threat to a large naval force. Operationally speaking these planes can't cover much surface on-patrol and will have their hands tied with detecting multiple NATO SSNs.

    Well, they won't send their Tu-22 in the middle of the atlantic. They will wait for the carrier group to come close. The small combat radius of the F-18 and F-35 is a limitation for the us navy's deployment. So the fuel issue is not an issue. The battle group will be a at maximum 700 km from the shore. So the Tu-22 will be assisted by the Su-34 and Su-24 equiped with Kh-35 and kh-31 and probably air lunched klub and brahmos NG (?). All this would be covered by Su-35 and pak fa + decoys. Plus don't forget Improved Kilo and future Kalina subs which can destroy an entire navy if used corectly.
    Intercepting a formation like this is just impossible. They could lunch some Aircraft from their carrier but it's not a problem as they would probably try to stop the missiles so the formation could easily go to its bases, refuel and do it again.

    The more they let them come close, the less they need Tu-142 and Il-28 and A-50/100 to patrol for them because the aera to cover is smaller. So the small number of patrol Aircraft is not a big issue neither.

    Russia has less equipement than USSR had but they improved them in the way that the quality solves the issue of the quantity.
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    VladimirSahin
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:46 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote:TU-22 squadrons have standoff range with AS-4s.

    But Tu-22M3 with such load-out has loiter time of potato and no in-flight refueling capability.
    SM-3 and SM-6 can blast it out of the sky before it can deploy that glorified, obsolete silver bullet of a missile.

    I'm not saying the TU-22M3 will be flying across the ocean it was just an example. The Russian navy in event of war would enjoy the defensive role under the protection of land and air assets. If the USAF doesn't wreck Russian defenses the US navy wont be posing much of a threat in most scenarios, especially a black sea scenario.

    The US can control much of Black Sea airspace by simply parking their Ticos and ABs in the North Aegean sea or Alexandretta bay. I don't think they'll bother sailing in there, in the same sense the Russians have no business in the Gulf of Mexico but they have no assets to project power there.

    Actually true, the SM-3 has like a 700 kilometer range. But that's a defensive operation, in event of war they need to destroy Russian forces. Parking in the North Aegean doesn't cut it. The USAF could launch stealth bombers and fighter jets through Bulgaria and Romania of course, but I doubt they wouldn't be found by the layered AD network.
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    eehnie
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm

    Some people is dreaming here too much about big conventional battles.

    For sure Russia will use some nuclear weapon to deal with US Aircraft Carrier fleets in war environment.
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    miketheterrible
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:48 pm

    Russia sees those jets from very far. When they can fix their spaced based radar coverage for ocean going ships, they will see then afar too. But currently, more so for fighter jets than ships. Those air forces bases stationing American jets are targeted by both conventional and nuclear systems currently and would be trashed pretty hard one way or the other.

    But I'm not going to lie, the AB are potent so there is a reason why Russia is designing new ASM.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:05 pm

    eehnie wrote:Some people is dreaming here too much about big conventional battles.

    For sure Russia will use some nuclear weapon to deal with US Aircraft Carrier fleets in war environment.

    If conventional was out of fashion, the world's great powers wouldn't make an effort to develop such weapons anymore.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:41 pm

    Maybe, but don't forget one of the prime reasons for all this new gear, profit.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:00 pm

    Things would go nuclear quite quickly anyway. So yes, majority is profit and keeping people working/jobs.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:51 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Some people is dreaming here too much about big conventional battles.

    For sure Russia will use some nuclear weapon to deal with US Aircraft Carrier fleets in war environment.

    If conventional was out of fashion, the world's great powers wouldn't make an effort to develop such weapons anymore.

    In near peer confrontations they are definitely out of fashion, at least after first 10 minutes. After that comes the real thing.

    Conventional stuff is there so the other guy doesn't start getting ideas.

    But their real purpose is the good old colonial warfare. Let's not kid ourselves, there are colonial powers and those who want to become colonial powers.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:11 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Some people is dreaming here too much about big conventional battles.

    For sure Russia will use some nuclear weapon to deal with US Aircraft Carrier fleets in war environment.

    If conventional was out of fashion, the world's great powers wouldn't make an effort to develop such weapons anymore.

    In near peer confrontations they are definitely out of fashion, at least after first 10 minutes. After that comes the real thing.

    Conventional stuff is there so the other guy doesn't start getting ideas.

    But their real purpose is the good old colonial warfare. Let's not kid ourselves, there are colonial powers and those who want to become colonial powers.

    Right.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:23 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Russia sees those jets from very far. When they can fix their spaced based radar coverage for ocean going ships, they will see then afar too. But currently, more so for fighter jets than ships. Those air forces bases stationing American jets are targeted by both conventional and nuclear systems currently and would be trashed pretty hard one way or the other.

    But I'm not going to lie, the AB are potent so there is a reason why Russia is designing new ASM.

    Not really.

    Say you need 40 subsonic rocket to kill a 10k ship with advanced air defence, 16 supersonic or 3 hypersonic.


    Means that for subsonic you need a 10k ship, for supersonic a 4k, and for hypersonic a 2k.


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:42 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:But their real purpose is the good old colonial warfare. Let's not kid ourselves, there are colonial powers and those who want to become colonial powers.

    Russia is one of them too. Concerning the rest, it's just an opinion things will go nuclear fast. Just like any non-strategic engagement will stay conventional. Nuclear weapons were hardly game changers since Vietnam, they're solely a deterrent in the hands of the major powers and Israel.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:14 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:But their real purpose is the good old colonial warfare. Let's not kid ourselves, there are colonial powers and those who want to become colonial powers.

    Russia is one of them too. Concerning the rest, it's just an opinion things will go nuclear fast. Just like any non-strategic engagement will stay conventional. Nuclear weapons were hardly game changers since Vietnam, they're solely a deterrent in the hands of the major powers and Israel.

    Of course Russia is one of them, that's what I tried to say.

    And deterrent ensures that major powers and Israel will never have conventional war between themselves.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:17 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:But their real purpose is the good old colonial warfare. Let's not kid ourselves, there are colonial powers and those who want to become colonial powers.

    Russia is one of them too. Concerning the rest, it's just an opinion things will go nuclear fast. Just like any non-strategic engagement will stay conventional. Nuclear weapons were hardly game changers since Vietnam, they're solely a deterrent in the hands of the major powers and Israel.

    Of course Russia is one of them, that's what I tried to say.

    And deterrent ensures that major powers and Israel will never have conventional war between themselves.

    I could see a conventional confrontation in the Baltics not going nuclear.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:24 am

    KiloGolf wrote:........

    I could see a conventional confrontation in the Baltics not going nuclear.

    It's not impossible but only because politicians would want to put a stop on conventional war real fast so it would not go nuclear.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:31 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:........

    I could see a conventional confrontation in the Baltics not going nuclear.

    It's not impossible but only because politicians would want to put a stop on conventional war real fast so it would not go nuclear.

    Till then half Latvia or Estonia could turn rather polite.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:44 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:But their real purpose is the good old colonial warfare. Let's not kid ourselves, there are colonial powers and those who want to become colonial powers.

    Russia is one of them too. Concerning the rest, it's just an opinion things will go nuclear fast. Just like any non-strategic engagement will stay conventional. Nuclear weapons were hardly game changers since Vietnam, they're solely a deterrent in the hands of the major powers and Israel.

    Russia now is like the US was around 1900.

    Big with a lot of resoures, desn't need anything aboroad .

    US now is like Britai was arouind the same time around 1900.

    All important supply line spawn throught the planet, vulerable to anyone who command better weapons than a basket of tropical fruits.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:59 am

    SM-3 and SM-6 are more modern and sophisticated missiles, hardly a few are needed to bring down an entire flight of slow-movers like the Tu-22M3s
    In what universe is a Mach 1.8 bomber a slow-mover? Suspect
    SM-3 Laughing is a dedicated exo-atmospheric ABM missile so it would miss a Tu-22 by at least 100km (vertically!)  silent
    SM-6 has a range about 450km vs Kh-22 500km range, sounds a lot like the Tu-22 can launch from safe range to me dunno

    Edit: more precisely: SM-6 460km, Kh-22 480km, its closer but still in favour of the Tu-22 with its 1976 missile.


    Last edited by hoom on Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:06 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:........

    I could see a conventional confrontation in the Baltics not going nuclear.

    It's not impossible but only because politicians would want to put a stop on conventional war real fast so it would not go nuclear.

    Till then half Latvia or Estonia could turn rather polite.

    Acceptable loss for both sides. lol1

    Needs of the many and all that... Cool
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    Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:06 am

    The US wont even fly F-22s in airspace with S-400s I don't see this confrontational US you keep talking about that can whip Russias ass with just SAMs.

    Where were they when Georgia was getting dumped on?

    Why aren't they driving the Russian Carriers out of the Med to protect their head hunting terrorist buddies in Syria?

    And if it wasn't going to go nuclear why were a quarter of all large missiles on Soviet ships armed with nuclear warheads... that is anti ship, anti sub, and anti aircraft missiles BTW...

    SM-6 has a range about 450km vs Kh-22 500km range, sounds a lot like the Tu-22 can launch from safe range to me

    Just as importantly the upgrades to the Tu-22M3M should make it rather more competitive including new models of missile like the Kh-32 (faster and longer range) and the improved models of Kh-15, and of course the near future introduction of the hypersonic Zircon...


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  hoom on Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:45 am

    Kalibr-isation of the Russian navy http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2334009.html

    Bunch of professional Russia watching think-tankers having a talk-fest on 14th Dec & they failed to add 20386 to their list Laughing (since they include 22160)
    Can't find the rest of the slides which is a shame, I'm wondering if there are parts covering modernisation of existing ships (particularly Nakhimov but possibly Oscars) & actual total numbers of missiles compared with European/Asian/US navies.
    But with the likes of Gorenberg involved that's probably expecting too much thinking Rolling Eyes
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:38 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:James Bond was a bit before my time sorry. He's not as iconic among my generation, try Jason Bourne. pirat

    Hahaha, you know out of all the stupid s**t I hear out of you young un's, this one one has to take the Pulitzer.

    Jason Bourne? How is it possible to compare your Maaaaaaaaatt Daaaaaaaamon to such an iconic and legendary in the world of film series of movies - as James Bond?



    This is the most ludicrous rubbish I heard all week.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  OminousSpudd on Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:38 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:James Bond was a bit before my time sorry. He's not as iconic among my generation, try Jason Bourne. pirat

    Hahaha, you know out of all the stupid s**t I hear out of you young un's, this one one has to take the Pulitzer.

    Jason Bourne? How is it possible to compare your Maaaaaaaaatt Daaaaaaaamon to such an iconic and legendary in the world of film series of movies - as James Bond?



    This is the most ludicrous rubbish I heard all week.

    What can I say, welcome to generation snowflake...
    Poncy British twat, or gungho Yankee, I don't actually give a fuck mate.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:55 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:Poncy British twat, or gungho Yankee, I don't actually give a fuck mate.

    I'm neither, matey clown
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  OminousSpudd on Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:36 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Poncy British twat, or gungho Yankee, I don't actually give a fuck mate.

    I'm neither, matey clown
    Yes, well that's pretty clear. I was referring to the movie characters... I really couldn't care less.

    You'll have to excuse me from this invigorating and worthwhile conversation.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:27 am

    Dede Moroz (Santa Claus) has gifts for the Russian Navy:

    23 December : The eight Borei class submarine (Knyaz Dimitri Pozharsky) will be laid down in Sevmash (Severodvinsk)
    24 December : The fifth Karakurt class corvette will be laid down in Pella shipyard (St. Petersburg)

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #4

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