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    Russian Navy: Status & News #3

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    PapaDragon
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:16 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    hoom wrote:while an AB can have anything up to 96* LRASM.

    There is zero chance the Uh'Murikkkanz would load-out a Burke with nothing but AShMs. No SAMs?  No land-attack?  pfftt... no chance.

    If Burkes ever need to combat Russian forces within range of Russian land-based strike aviation and SSGNs you can bet they will place great emphasis on SAMs.


    And like I said gazillion times before: not happening ever.

    Nukes. They are not there just for video games.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  hoom on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:30 pm

    There is zero chance the Uh'Murikkkanz would load-out a Burke with nothing but AShMs. No SAMs? No land-attack? pfftt... no chance.
    Not for a practical loadout but they could since all its VLS are compatible.
    They did load one with all Tomahawks for attacking Libya, escorted by a couple with normal AA loadout. It'd obviously have made more sense to split the Tomahawks between the 3* Burkes but they didn't.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:16 pm

    [quote="hoom"Didn't know that, makes an 8* Onyx salvo quite a lot more scary than I'd been giving credit for.[/quote]

    It showing that you never spend time to consider/calculate the chances for this type of missile.



    Basic rule is every unit has to use 4 sam for one target.

    By the historical experiences the SAM has quite low hit probability, the Israel iron dome has something like 70-90% against subsonic non manoeuvrable, ballistic targets.

    Here you have manoeuvring, supersonic ( 2-4 match ) fast , high G capable small radar cross section targets, that can see the incoming missiles as well ( if not now then after a electronic pack update) .

    The Onix is at the end of its trajectory, means it can accelerate by 2 g with its engine, and can turn by dozens of gs.

    And the ship has 50 seconds to do anything about it, means if it can launch say 4 SAM / seconds, then it can have 200 in due time, but it will be a bit difficult to illuminate all targets for the 200 sam, considering that the AB has only 5-10 illuminator.


    Means that if you consider the realistic scenarios then the best chance for the ship to survive is if it using chaff and ECM .

    And that is the reason why they communicate with each other and prioritise the targets : )

    The subsonic is a bit different, in that case the ship can launch 600 rocket, means that by simple calculation it can kill at least 3 times more subsonic rocket than supersonic ones.

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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:39 pm

    Project Canada wrote:Is there a Russian counterpart of the LRASM that is in the works?


    For what inexplicable reason would be necessary to return significantly backward in the technological scale only to reproduce the limited capabilities of a foreign air launched land attack cruise missile rush-adapted for the anti-ship role only for the effect of a wide technological gap in the field.

    That would be absurd and even humiliating for domestic Institutes like being forced to quickly adapt an Х-555 - a missile, exactly like AGM-158, with an aerodynamic layout and sensor suit conceived for cruise at optimal altitude ,acquire and strike fixed ground targets avoiding area covered by enemy air defenses, not for sudden over horizon pop up target acquisition, sea skimming approach at few meters from wakes, wolf-pack data sharing and flight approach, pseudo-random violent terminal maneuvring to attempt to dodge interception by the unavoidable medium and close range defenses present on the target, pre-computed variation of altitude and angle of illumination of the target to minimize effect of decoy and ECMs etc...-to anti-ship role because no other long range missile of any kind, even less an anti-ship missile of level superior to П-120 «Малахит», would be available to cover the role.

    Posing a similar question in a room at Mашиностроения or Новатор would be taken as a failed attempt at joking or an open provocation.

    A missile like today 3M-54 is ,in the anti-ship role, under a mere technical content and performance metrics aggregate,  head, shoulder, waist, knees, feets and 5-6 meters above the level of a stop-gap rushed adaptation like LRASM.

    We will see what will be the true choice for the next decade by part of US Navy with OASuW increment II selection.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:11 am

    A Gorshkov with Zircon will still only have 16* max while an AB can have anything up to 96* LRASM.
    That switch from separate inclined launchers to Mk41 VLS is a big step up.
    (I never understood why they didn't at least make a VLS Harpoon Suspect)

    Thank you for making my point... a new Russian FRIGATE will have 16 hypersonic (ie mach 8+) anti ship or land attack missiles vs a US CRUISER with 96 subsonic anti ship missiles... no wonder they rely on their carriers...

    BTW if all those 96 tubes have anti ship missiles then the Russian subs will sink them all...


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:02 am

    In my view it is interesting the discussion about new systems on ships, but also it is necessary to do it with a realistic approach to the Russian Navy procurement. It is not right to scorn the value and the capabilities of many ships that are in middle of their active service, just because they have not the most modern systems. There is an experience of successful campaigns done with armament that is not the most modern. The same must be applied to the Navy.

    Between all the ships of all the projects listed here:

    http://russianships.info/eng/today/

    The alone ships that are not of enough level of armament to be listed between the Russian combat ships are the three of the Project 1400. And even this is more a mistake of the web than of the Russian Navy because the ships of the Project 1400 should be considered more like auxiliary ships for coast (base) guard role. The rest, more modern or less, but all have something useful at this point. The question is to combine them by the right way, also taking into account what PapaDragon said about nuclear weapons.

    If I would have to talk about mistakes or about the weakest points of the Russian Navy I would say, in this order:

    1.- The purchase of 4 old cargo ships for the Syrian campaign. I consider it a mistake because I think it was unnecessary, because the Russian Navy had enough auxiliary ships for it, and opened the door to articles like this:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-syria-ships-idUSKBN0TY2BG20151215

    2.- Some ships of the following projects should be in the Russian Navy instead of in the Russian Coast Guard:

    Project 11351
    Project 1330(1)
    Project 1265
    Project 1176
    Project T-4

    Having the ships, to have them in the Russian Navy would give to them some aditional capability, while surely they are not useful for the Russian Coast Guard since they are of roles or have armament that is outside of the logical and common roles or armament of a Coast/Border Guard force. Their presence in the Russian Coast Guard is more symbolic.

    3.- I would expect a bigger use of the ships of foreign design in the campaign of Syria, because their future can be likely out of the Russian Navy in the short term:

    Type Dora
    Type Dubna
    Project REF-675
    Project REF-100
    Project R-5757
    Project UK-3
    Project V92
    Project V820
    Deep Water 2000 Project ARS-600
    IC16M

    Some are being used, but I would expect bigger use.
    In some case I doubt if they are of Sovietic design, then should not be in the list.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  jhelb on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:30 am

    Mindstorm wrote:pseudo-random violent terminal maneuvring to attempt to dodge interception by the unavoidable medium and close range defenses present on the target

    Mindstorm, can you elaborate on this part as to how a missile performs such manoeuvres? Also, which missile are you referring to - П-120 «Малахит»? Thanks.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  hoom on Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:45 pm

    Thank you for making my point... a new Russian FRIGATE will have 16 hypersonic (ie mach 8+) anti ship or land attack missiles vs a US CRUISER with 96 subsonic anti ship missiles... no wonder they rely on their carriers...
    The point was whether or not Gorshkov has at least 1/2 the firepower of an AB.
    I'm saying that in total number of missiles yes 1/2.
    In number of anti-ship missiles, currently 2* AB but that won't last, its not an insult to Gorshkov or Russian missiles, just a numerical fact.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:38 am



    Notice anything at 3:50? Smile
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:35 am

    The point was whether or not Gorshkov has at least 1/2 the firepower of an AB.
    I'm saying that in total number of missiles yes 1/2.
    In number of anti-ship missiles, currently 2* AB but that won't last, its not an insult to Gorshkov or Russian missiles, just a numerical fact.

    You are talking numbers... maths...

    My mother has two arms... when he was alive Mohammad Ali had two arms so I guess in a boxing ring they would be the same according to you.

    96 Subsonic missiles that don't get through a ships defences are not better than 16 supersonic missiles that do... not an insult to US cruisers... but they have always relied on carrier based aircraft to deal with enemy ships...


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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Dennis_3003 on Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:56 am

    Does anyone know when the Gorshkov is finally going to be commissioned?

    Also, in my opinion, I think that the Rus Navy should have the following inventory for their fleets, as a minimum:

    Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet:

    • Atleast 5 Gorshkov Frigates for each fleet


    • 7 Dzirkiy Corvettes each


    Baltic Fleet and Black Sea Fleet:

    • 5 Dzirkiy Corvettes each


    • 5 Steregushy Corvettes to complement


    This is assuming that the Dzirkiy corvettes are armed with both Poliment Redoute and Kalibr/Onyx systems. Hopefully with the commissioning of the Gorshkov and successful introduction of the Dzirkiy, then the Rus Navy can decommission the older destroyers.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:36 am

    assuming that the Dzirkiy corvettes are armed with both Poliment Redoute
    Redut but not Poliment.
    Poliment is the radar on Gorshkov, 20386 will have a different radar system 'Zaslon' (Barrier) so it'll be Zaslon-Redut.

    96 Subsonic missiles that don't get through a ships defences are not better than 16 supersonic missiles that do
    Even PtG is not going to be able to handle that kind of salvo coming in simultaneous & multi-direction.
    Gorshkov certainly won't be shooting down 96* with only 32 SAMs.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:42 am

    GarryB wrote:96 Subsonic missiles that don't get through a ships defences

    There are no such defences.

    Dennis_3003 wrote:Does anyone know when the Gorshkov is finally going to be commissioned?

    They're working on its defences. Apparently needs to intercept 96 Tomahawks, harpoons and SM-6s.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:53 pm

    hoom wrote:
    assuming that the Dzirkiy corvettes are armed with both Poliment Redoute
    Redut but not Poliment.
    Poliment is the radar on Gorshkov, 20386 will have a different radar system 'Zaslon' (Barrier) so it'll be Zaslon-Redut.

    96 Subsonic missiles that don't get through a ships defences are not better than 16 supersonic missiles that do
    Even PtG is not going to be able to handle that kind of salvo coming in simultaneous & multi-direction.
    Gorshkov certainly won't be shooting down 96* with only 32 SAMs.

    People give too little credit to missiles being high-subsonic. Its far from easy to hit something flying at 850ish km/h few m above sea surface. I am actually doubtful any ship in the would would survive 12 missile salvo of Harpoons, one would go through no matter what.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:56 pm

    Guys, I have been thinking a bit about those Sovremennyy-class destroyers. I know they are long in the tooth and supposed to be retired in a decade but then I remembered how RU Navy is completing last two Tarantul-class corvettes as Moloniya class by replacing 4 Moskits with 16 Uran missiles.

    So I was thinking since Sovremennyys are decent in size why, instead of scraping them, they not overhaul them by replacing all weapon and sensor systems with modern off-the-shelf stuff:

    1) Get rid of all weapons, especially that rear gun. Either slot some AA missiles there or just leave it empty, it might add a knot or two to max speed.

    2) Overhaul engines and improve living conditions.

    3) Replace all radars, sonars and sensors with ones used on Grigorevich class frigates.

    4) Replace CIWS with that Dublet AK from Buyans

    5) Replace AA missiles with whatever current model is available and fits.  

    6) Replace anti ship missiles with as many Uran launchers that can fit. And before anyone mentions UKSK, forget about it, whole point would be to do this on the cheap. Unplanned UKSK installation is not cheap.

    7) If it's doable fast, replace front gun with something newer and lighter. If not then just leave the old one. Still works.

    Do this and you get decently armed vessel in short period of time. It will not be top dog but it will be perfectly decent warship on the cheap. Better than throwing them away.

    And like I said at the beginning: CHEAP, OFF-THE-SHELF STUFF!!! Nothing fancy or flashy, speed and price are keywords here.
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    Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:17 pm

    The Chinese are doing something like that.


    I think Russians looked at it but decided against because engines are so bad & by the time you rip out all the old stuff, fix and replace with new stuff the price is basically same as a brand new ship with all the advantages of a modern design/engine.

    There was a sketch of upgraded Sov I was looking at recently that was I think part of Almaz Sthil-1 promo, can't find it right now though cry
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Benya on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:30 pm

    hoom wrote:The Chinese are doing something like that.


    I think Russians looked at it but decided against because engines are so bad & by the time you rip out all the old stuff, fix and replace with new stuff the price is basically same as a brand new ship with all the advantages of a modern design/engine.

    There was a sketch of upgraded Sov I was looking at recently that was I think part of Almaz Sthil-1 promo, can't find it right now though cry

    Actually, this is a CGI of the chinese destroyer "Ningbo" (Pennant number: 139), exported Sovremenniy-class destroyer.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:06 pm

    Yes I said Chinese...
    And they are in progress of doing upgrades


    Not the sketch I was thinking of (& I think it was actually an Udaloy not Sov) but found this
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:13 pm

    hoom wrote:
    assuming that the Dzirkiy corvettes are armed with both Poliment Redoute
    Redut but not Poliment.
    Poliment is the radar on Gorshkov, 20386 will have a different radar system 'Zaslon' (Barrier) so it'll be Zaslon-Redut.

    96 Subsonic missiles that don't get through a ships defences are not better than 16 supersonic missiles that do
    Even PtG is not going to be able to handle that kind of salvo coming in simultaneous & multi-direction.
    Gorshkov certainly won't be shooting down 96* with only 32 SAMs.

    It has 128 short range SAM max.

    The AB has four in one VLS as well from short range ones.

    So the Gorshkov actualy can kill max 128 Tomahawk.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Gorshkov-class_frigate
    32 (4 × 8 ) Redut VLS cells housing 9M96, 9M96M, 9M96D/9M96DM(M2) family of missiles and/or quad-packed 9M100 short range missiles


    So, it has chance to survive a 96 rocket Tomahawk salvo.

    And the AB has no chance to survive in that case the 4 onyx salvo that the G can send back, considering it has only 96 launch canister.


    Last edited by Singular_Transform on Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:15 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    assuming that the Dzirkiy corvettes are armed with both Poliment Redoute
    Redut but not Poliment.
    Poliment is the radar on Gorshkov, 20386 will have a different radar system 'Zaslon' (Barrier) so it'll be Zaslon-Redut.

    96 Subsonic missiles that don't get through a ships defences are not better than 16 supersonic missiles that do
    Even PtG is not going to be able to handle that kind of salvo coming in simultaneous & multi-direction.
    Gorshkov certainly won't be shooting down 96* with only 32 SAMs.

    People give too little credit to missiles being high-subsonic. Its far from easy to hit something flying at 850ish km/h few m above sea surface. I am actually doubtful any ship in the would would survive 12 missile salvo of Harpoons, one would go through no matter what.


    Good, so if you think that no ship can survive a 12 missile salvo, then what do you think aout the survival chance against 2.5-5 mach fast missile salvo?

    if 12 harpoon enought, then 2-4 onix should be enought against any ship : )


    Means the Kuznetsov can single handed kill a complete carrier group.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:31 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:if 12 harpoon enought, then 2-4 onix should be enought against any ship : )


    Means the Kuznetsov can single handed kill a complete carrier group.

    The Kuz won't even reach within 1,000 km of any US carrier group, I mean the ship right now is busy trashing its own air group. Jokes aside these old Soviet missiles are known quantity for NATO and can be promptly jammed/baited, especially at the extreme end of their operational envelope. Which is about 500 km really.

    There is little difference in intercepting a Mach 0.9, 1.0 or even 2.0 target. Speed is secondary, flight profile is the essence and loosing tracking of the target by the wolf pack is what will make the difference. In an EW-heavy environment and given the de facto superiority of long-range USN AEW&C assets, the latter can be highly influenced and rendered useless.

    Also once those 12 or so silver bullets are launched, the launching platform will be trashed. 10, 20 or 30 cruise missiles will come its way.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:53 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    assuming that the Dzirkiy corvettes are armed with both Poliment Redoute
    Redut but not Poliment.
    Poliment is the radar on Gorshkov, 20386 will have a different radar system 'Zaslon' (Barrier) so it'll be Zaslon-Redut.

    96 Subsonic missiles that don't get through a ships defences are not better than 16 supersonic missiles that do
    Even PtG is not going to be able to handle that kind of salvo coming in simultaneous & multi-direction.
    Gorshkov certainly won't be shooting down 96* with only 32 SAMs.

    People give too little credit to missiles being high-subsonic. Its far from easy to hit something flying at 850ish km/h few m above sea surface. I am actually doubtful any ship in the would would survive 12 missile salvo of Harpoons, one would go through no matter what.


    Good, so if you think that no ship can survive a 12 missile salvo, then what do you think aout the survival chance against 2.5-5 mach fast missile salvo?

    if 12 harpoon enought, then 2-4 onix should be enought against any ship : )


    Means the Kuznetsov can single handed kill a complete carrier group.

    Lets look at it this way, what are chances of Kuz ever getting into position of using Granits aganist USN? Quite slim IMHO.

    Carrier groups are often over 20 ships in wartime actually.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:00 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    hoom wrote:
    assuming that the Dzirkiy corvettes are armed with both Poliment Redoute
    Redut but not Poliment.
    Poliment is the radar on Gorshkov, 20386 will have a different radar system 'Zaslon' (Barrier) so it'll be Zaslon-Redut.

    96 Subsonic missiles that don't get through a ships defences are not better than 16 supersonic missiles that do
    Even PtG is not going to be able to handle that kind of salvo coming in simultaneous & multi-direction.
    Gorshkov certainly won't be shooting down 96* with only 32 SAMs.

    People give too little credit to missiles being high-subsonic. Its far from easy to hit something flying at 850ish km/h few m above sea surface. I am actually doubtful any ship in the would would survive 12 missile salvo of Harpoons, one would go through no matter what.


    Good, so if you think that no ship can survive a 12 missile salvo, then what do you think aout the survival chance against 2.5-5 mach fast missile salvo?

    if 12 harpoon enought, then 2-4 onix should be enought against any ship : )


    Means the Kuznetsov can single handed kill a complete carrier group.

    Lets look at it this way, what are chances of Kuz ever getting into position of using Granits aganist USN? Quite slim IMHO.

    Carrier groups are often over 20 ships in wartime actually.


    It needs to get 600-1000km distance.

    not impossible feat.

    But it can not kill a 20 ship group alone. 16 granit is not enought for that.

    It can kill a 5-6 ship group alone : )


    And I think you miss the point: IF 12 harpoon enough to kill any ship then what can be the effect of 16 granit?

    Considering the harpoon has something like 50-70 km range, the granit has 500-1000 km range.


    The granit has as big range as the nimitz f/a-18 with the harpoon together .


    Simple math, isn't it?
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:09 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:The Kuz won't even reach within 1,000 km of any US carrier group

    You're full of **it KG.... You know very well that the K will be used defensively in any future conflict with the US, so for any USN CBG to come within 1000 clicks of the K they need to come within 1000 clicks of Russian land-based strike aviation, coastal submarines and land based missiles. A US CBG will severely degraded by stand-off weapons before they even get close.....

    Sink just one US flattop and you will shred the fake aura of invulnerability that the Yankistanis have cultivated around themselves. The sight of a flatop turned turtle, full of 5000 good-old boy Uh'Murikkkan sailors, and blazing from stem to stern will be a 1st class PR disaster for Exceptionalistan. The USN brass KNOWS that their vaunted carriers are big slow hulking targets in an open ocean that stick out like dogs balls with a huge welcome mat to modern high-supersonic (or hypersonic) stand-off weapons. Its traditionally easier to attack than defend, and if anyone really thinks that modern Russian AShMs are not effective they need their heads read. The Soviets had developed wolf-pack capabilities for SS-N-12s & 19s back in the late 70s. You think modern weapons won't have far superior networking, intelligently flexible targetting and ECCM capabilities?

    NWO/NATOstani establishment wet-dreams about taking down the Kuznetsov in any future war shows how simple-minded our brain-washed Corporate NWO enforcers truly are. Russia is building her modernised military not to project power to the 4 corners of the planet in mimicry of Pax Uh'Murikkkana but to TARGET the points of weakness of the enemies conventional strength. China is doing the same, and judging by the near-panic within USN circles about their upcoming inability to operate in Chinas near abroad, they know the writing is on the wall.
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    Re: Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:12 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:if 12 harpoon enought, then 2-4 onix should be enought against any ship : )


    Means the Kuznetsov can single handed kill a complete carrier group.

    The Kuz won't even reach within 1,000 km of any US carrier group, I mean the ship right now is busy trashing its own air group. Jokes aside these old Soviet missiles are known quantity for NATO and can be promptly jammed/baited, especially at the extreme end of their operational envelope. Which is about 500 km really.

    There is little difference in intercepting a Mach 0.9, 1.0 or even 2.0 target. Speed is secondary, flight profile is the essence and loosing tracking of the target by the wolf pack is what will make the difference. In an EW-heavy environment and given the de facto superiority of long-range USN AEW&C assets, the latter can be highly influenced and rendered useless.

    Also once those 12 or so silver bullets are launched, the launching platform will be trashed. 10, 20 or 30 cruise missiles will come its way.


    Maybe the US military and the laws of physics doesn't share your view.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird
    Maximum speed: Mach 3.3
    The SR-71 had a radar cross-section (RCS) of around 10 square meters.
    During aerial reconnaissance missions, the SR-71 operated at high speeds and altitudes to allow it to outrace threats. If a surface-to-air missile launch was detected, the standard evasive action was simply to accelerate and outfly the missile.


    So, it was next to impossible to kill the blackbird with the strategic air defence.

    The onyx(or gránit) faster,smaller, more agile,and attack in synchronised manner. (onyx thrust to weight:2.0-3.0, SR-71: 0.5)


    What is the chance to kill one with one SAM? or 4? or 10 ?


    Considering that the U2 was easy to kill, the SR-71 was impossible to kill.


    So?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird


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