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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:50 pm

    LMFS wrote:I guess they started building in series as soon as there was capacity of doing it reliably. That means, designs tested, additional projects like engines or weapons systems ready, and shipyards reasonably operational.

    No they had capacity to make Steregushchys, yet they decided to improve it to Gremyashchy and again to Derzky.

    There's a proverb in the USN that the best is the worst enemy of good. Perfectionist obsession is not always productive. It's better to have 10 good Virginias than 5 excellent Seawolfs. Russians started recognising the priority of quantity over quality.
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:12 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    LMFS wrote:I guess they started building in series as soon as there was capacity of doing it reliably. That means, designs tested, additional projects like engines or weapons systems ready, and shipyards reasonably operational.

    No they had capacity to make Steregushchys, yet they decided to improve it to Gremyashchy and again to Derzky.

    There's a proverb in the USN that the best is the worst enemy of good. Perfectionist obsession is not always productive. It's better to have 10 good Virginias than 5 excellent Seawolfs. Russians started recognising the priority of quantity over quality.

    Agree, but remember what you said two posts above:

    The capacity has always been the biggest bottleneck in the Russian naval MIC...bigger than money.

    There is (and especially was) of course a component of coming late to manufacturing a design and then realizing that by commissioning it is already old... or seeing your development plan is not getting implemented at the speed you expected and you feel the need to engage in palliative measures. And then, there are also pure and simple bad decisions. As far as they do them with corvettes and not with major ships it should be solvable. This is a bit like watching the grass grow, but I personally think naval industry is slowly improving.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:15 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:...
    No they had capacity to make Steregushchys, yet they decided to improve it to Gremyashchy and again to Derzky.
    ..........

    Derzkii is excellent idea and they should keep at it

    In the meantime they need to keep building previous corvette versions until it's ready
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    Post  eehnie on Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:16 pm

    The President of Russia was very clear about the role of the shipbuilding industry in 2015:


    http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50060

    Russian Federation Marine Doctrine

    Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.

    July 26, 2015 16:00Baltiisk
    Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.
    1 of 3
    Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.
    The meeting took place on board the frigate Admiral of the Soviet Navy Gorshkov. Participants included Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, Commander of the Navy Viktor Chirkov, and Commander of the Western Military District Anatoly Sidorov.

    * * *

    President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Colleagues, good afternoon.

    We have been updating the Russian Federation’s Marine Doctrine. This very complex document’s main aim is to provide our country with an integral, consistent and effective naval policy that will protect Russia’s interests.

    The Doctrine has been drafted and approved. This is a big event for our future navy, and for developing our shipbuilding industry, because the main customer – the navy in this case, and the Defence Ministry – formulate their future needs, and the industry must carry out these tasks. Industry adapts to new tasks depending on the needs formulated.

    Let me note that for the first time, the Doctrine also includes provisions of a purely social nature. They cover marine medicine, and provisions for improving the health of sailors and the specialists working in the marine field. This is very important. People need to know that from now on, our strategic documents for developing our country’s fleet and navy will address the social aspect too, and will give people what they expect from their service, as they carry out the tasks that face our country today in this very complex and important area.

    Let’s now discuss in more detail the Doctrine’s key provisions. Mr Rogozin, you have the floor.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
    verkhoturye51
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:30 pm

    LMFS wrote:There is (and especially was) of course a component of coming late to manufacturing a design and then realizing that by commissioning it is already old... or seeing your development plan is not getting implemented at the speed you expected and you feel the need to engage in palliative measures.

    1990-2010 era was harsh because they had to do introduce big improvements. But there's no excuse for a way they've done it. First wanting river Ivan Gren, next day sea-going Ivan Gren. It's like there's pro-US mafia in the Navy wondering how they can squeeze most rubles to get the least out of them.

    PapaDragon wrote:Derzkii is excellent idea and they should keep at it

    Sure, but they should've decided for it before 5 Steregushchies and Gremyashchies were put in production. Russia is supposed to be centralised authoritarian state, yet this sounds like bunch of women at hairdresser argueing which haircut looks the best. What is this? United nations?
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:42 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:...........
    PapaDragon wrote:Derzkii is excellent idea and they should keep at it

    Sure, but they should've decided for it before 5 Steregushchies and Gremyashchies were put in production. ....

    They have been in production long before Derzkii was designed

    And they still need to test it out first
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:31 am

    It is a balance... having long production runs is certainly good for production, but if you need a different ship for a different environment then you need a different ship.

    Commonality is a good thing so use standardised weapons and systems and sensors, but they don't want one ship design to try to do every job at once... especially a small ship.

    It is much harder to make small ships multirole, so having two or three different models is a good thing for Russia.

    With bigger ships the modular weapon design means they will become naturally more multirole.

    UKSK launchers on their own mean a ship can have land attack capability, anti ship capability, or anti sub capability and you can decide which when you are choosing the weapons to load into the tubes.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:16 am

    slasher wrote:Just curious. Can you identify what these 13 might comprise of?

    Glad to help. All Shchuka, Shchuka B & Kondor boats that are now in service (4) or in modernization (9).

    GarryB wrote:It is a balance... having long production runs is certainly good for production, but if you need a different ship for a different environment then you need a different ship.

    Never heard anybody in Russia saying that they need 2 Gremyashchys and 10 Steregushchys. Only feeling sorry for not thinking already in the 1990s in advance, failing to recognise that what they need is modularity - bastion defence & blue water navy, so ocean-going corvette with UKSK (=Derzky).
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    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:28 pm

    USC says it has developed a project for a combatant with a standard design below the waterline but different modular, specialized superstructures for various mission areas


    MOSCOW, December 3. / TASS /. United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) has developed a project of universal warships with modular add-ons that can be transformed to fulfill four different goals. This was announced to journalists by USC President Alexei Rakhmanov.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5863661

    what kind of warship will that be? a kind of platform like armata?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:44 am

    The Army designed a universal carrier based on the BMP-3 and the T-90 tank, so any turret or weapon or sensors or whatever could use these vehicle chassis.

    It means you can easily develop a BMP-3 or T-90 based vehicle... examples might be that you could make an IFV based on the T-90 (BTR-T... troop transport-tank based), or you could make a self propelled gun based on the T-90 (like MSTA, which is based on the T-80 tank chassis).

    If you can work out all the vehicle designs based on those two vehicles then you just need two engine types for all the different weight vehicles... two types of tracks and wheels etc etc.

    Their new family vehicles offer the same... one heavy tracked, one medium tracked, one medium wheeled, and one light wheeled platform to base all needed vehicle types on... so you get a heavy tracked tank, a medium tracked tank, a medium wheeled tank, and a light wheeled tank... (and another light tracked tank in the form of Sprut). All the tanks can share the main gun and sensors and systems and equipment.

    For ships it means you can use the same hull and propulsion for a variety of uses... cruisers, aircraft carriers, landing ships, helicopter carriers, support ships, arsenal ships, intel/recon ships...

    The Kirov class cruisers included 5 hulls, four of the orlan class were completed as Kirovs and one was completed as a huge intel/space support ship called Ural.

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    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:24 pm

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 16 72135_original



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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:58 am

    OK this might impress some people...

    If you save the spreadsheet image above onto your own desktop and go to this page:

    https://translate.yandex.com/ocr

    And click on the select image link and choose the above image from your desktop you can then zoom in the image... drag it around using control key...

    You can highlight text and the page will use OCR to turn it into real text and translate it to English... or you can select another language to translate from or to...

    Isn't that cool?

    I now have this translation page linked on my browser...
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    Post  Hole on Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:52 pm

    thumbsup
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    Post  George1 on Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:15 pm

    Ship composition of the Russian Navy (warships of 1-2 rank, NK - from 2000 tons full.) On 01/02/2019

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/201273.html
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    Post  George1 on Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:27 pm

    Guard ship "Neustrashimy" will complete repairs in 2019

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3524764.html
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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 16 Empty Creation of an ocean corvette with 24 "Calibers" put off to the back

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:40 pm

    pity unshaven unshaven unshaven


    Creation of an ocean corvette with 24 "Calibers" put off to the back

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 16 P8220034-3

    Consideration of the issue of starting substantive work on the concept of a corvette of the ocean zone, proposed by the Krylov State Research Center (KGNC) in 2017, was postponed to the mid-2020s. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told a knowledgeable industry source.

    "Due to the lack of funds and the development of the construction of the corvettes of the project 20386, the decision to create a corvette on the basis of the KGNC concept will be adopted closer to the end of the current state armaments program," the source said.

    A concept project of a multi-purpose ship of the subclass "Corvette" was created in the advanced design department of combat surface ships of the Krylov center. It combines powerful strike armament - 24 vertical launch installations for the “Caliber” - with good seaworthiness, which will allow the corvette to work in the ocean zone. The frigates of the project 22350 type "Admiral Gorshkov" carry only 16 "Caliber".

    According to the creators of the promising corvette, the construction of such ships should be carried out in a large series using assembly units. The latter will speed up the construction.
    The source of Mil.Press FlotProm in the Almaz Central Design Bureau said that the concept-project of the Krylov Center does not compete with the development of the bureau: "Naval science moves independently; tests in the KGNTs basins ". The interviewee was skeptical about the possibility of translating the concept into reality.
    According to the creator of the corvette, the head of the advanced design department for surface warships of the Krylov Center, Valentin Belonenko, the sailors got acquainted with the concept of the ship. Belonenko stressed the high nautical qualities of the corvette. He also noted that the technical solutions that emerged during the development of the concept were used in the construction of one of the newest ships of the Russian Navy.
    Help Mil.Press FlotProm

    The displacement of the prospective corvette is 2000–2500 tons. The ship’s air defenses are provided by 16 long-range anti-aircraft missiles and 32 short-range ones. It is also equipped with a universal 100-mm automatic gun mount and two 30-mm six- or twelve-barreled rapid-fire anti-aircraft artillery systems. Anti-submarine armament and anti-torpedo protection are represented by two four-tube torpedo tubes “Packet-NK” of 324 mm caliber. Strike armament - 24 Caliber cruise missiles. According to the creators of the concept, their number can be increased if necessary.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:16 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:  pity ....

    Creation of an ocean corvette with 24 "Calibers" put off to the back

    ..........


    I am flabbergasted they were even considering it with 20380, 20385 and 20386 in assembly simultaneously

    So we can add Anime-class corvette to the list of Krylov's Anime-series vaporware alongside Anime-class destroyer and 2 different Anime-class carriers lol1    

    Although who knows, maybe they are just ''unsure'' again?
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:26 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    So we can add Anime-class corvette to the list of Krylov's Anime-series vaporware alongside Anime-class destroyer and 2 different Anime-class carriers lol1    

    Although who knows, maybe they are just ''unsure'' again?

    anime Lider which is going to series ?
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:36 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    So we can add Anime-class corvette to the list of Krylov's Anime-series vaporware alongside Anime-class destroyer and 2 different Anime-class carriers lol1    

    Although who knows, maybe they are just ''unsure'' again?

    anime Lider which is going to series ?

    It's definitely not

    And if by some miracle they do start building destroyer it will not look like that early 2000s fanart
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:01 am

    Lots of missiles tubes is a good thing, but at the end of the day these are war ships that will spend 90% of their operational lives just doing normal things, so onboard comfort and room and food and fuel supplies also need to allow for comfort and reasonable deployment times, and of course good sea keeping is a must.

    I remember a friend of mine bought a model F-16 that came with a lot of missiles as options but he decided they must all go on at once... so he attached missiles and bombs everywhere... and I mean everywhere... including the vertical tip of the tail had a Sparrow, and the horizontal tips of the tailaerons... he even put weapon pylons on top of the wings... it just looked silly... and if it could have flown would have been a real dog.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:01 pm

    PapaDragon wrote: It's definitely not

    anime

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 16 28-5132365-briz-korvet-mvms-2017



    non-anime

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 16 LEADER-CLASS

    And if by some miracle they do start building destroyer it will not look like that early 2000s fanart

    hmm seriously i fail to see fan-art difference


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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:Lots of missiles tubes is a good thing, but at the end of the day these are war ships that will spend 90% of their operational lives just doing normal things, so onboard comfort and room and food and fuel supplies also need to allow for comfort and reasonable deployment times, and of course good sea keeping is a must.

    is there anything that this ship is missing? 20380 had poor sea worthiness this one good.
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    Post  eehnie on Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:55 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:pity  unshaven  unshaven  unshaven


    Creation of an ocean corvette with 24 "Calibers" put off to the back










    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 16 P8220034-3

    Consideration of the issue of starting substantive work on the concept of a corvette of the ocean zone, proposed by the Krylov State Research Center (KGNC) in 2017, was postponed to the mid-2020s. About this Mil.Press FlotProm told a knowledgeable industry source.

    "Due to the lack of funds and the development of the construction of the corvettes of the project 20386, the decision to create a corvette on the basis of the KGNC concept will be adopted closer to the end of the current state armaments program," the source said.

    A concept project of a multi-purpose ship of the subclass "Corvette" was created in the advanced design department of combat surface ships of the Krylov center. It combines powerful strike armament - 24 vertical launch installations for the “Caliber” - with good seaworthiness, which will allow the corvette to work in the ocean zone. The frigates of the project 22350 type "Admiral Gorshkov" carry only 16 "Caliber".

    According to the creators of the promising corvette, the construction of such ships should be carried out in a large series using assembly units. The latter will speed up the construction.
    The source of Mil.Press FlotProm in the Almaz Central Design Bureau said that the concept-project of the Krylov Center does not compete with the development of the bureau: "Naval science moves independently; tests in the KGNTs basins ". The interviewee was skeptical about the possibility of translating the concept into reality.
    According to the creator of the corvette, the head of the advanced design department for surface warships of the Krylov Center, Valentin Belonenko, the sailors got acquainted with the concept of the ship. Belonenko stressed the high nautical qualities of the corvette. He also noted that the technical solutions that emerged during the development of the concept were used in the construction of one of the newest ships of the Russian Navy.
    Help Mil.Press FlotProm

    The displacement of the prospective corvette is 2000–2500 tons. The ship’s air defenses are provided by 16 long-range anti-aircraft missiles and 32 short-range ones. It is also equipped with a universal 100-mm automatic gun mount and two 30-mm six- or twelve-barreled rapid-fire anti-aircraft artillery systems. Anti-submarine armament and anti-torpedo protection are represented by two four-tube torpedo tubes “Packet-NK” of 324 mm caliber. Strike armament - 24 Caliber cruise missiles. According to the creators of the concept, their number can be increased if necessary.

    thumbsup  thumbsup

    This project developped now makes others redundant, and this is not in the interest of the Russian Ministry of Defense, that has other priorities, like to allow not holes in the development of the current generation of new armament. The delay until the mid-2020s means this project will be developped then with additional improvements as part of the next generation.

    You have been reading about this here. Simply the reality comes:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7631p875-future-russian-aircraft-carriers-3#250364

    And this without count the Projects ongoing that would create more redundancies.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-sap-2018-2027-arms-procurement#213501

    This is what you can expect from the Russian Ministry of Defense if the timeline of the production of the first unit of the Project 23560 and the Project 23000 is not in agreement with the timeline for the current new generation of armament and heavy auxiliary material, creating one or two holes in the generation just in the top of the sea based armament:

    1.- After the approval of the Preliminary Design of new aircraft carrier (likely Project 23000), no-one Preliminary Project more of combat or auxiliary ship will be approved until 2026. The projects affected would be the Projects of ships of the second link [#213501], not listed here.

    2.- The funding for the development of these future projects of the second link will fall to 0 until 2026.


    3.- After the order of the first unit of the new aircraft carrier (likely Project 23000) it will not be new orders of new ships of the current projects in production until 2026.

    4.- The funding for the ships under construction today will be more strongly adapted to the real priorities of the Russian Ministry of Defense.

    And from the Russian Gouvernment you can expect also consequences for the leadership of the United Shipbuilding Corporation.

    The points 1 and 2 explain this new. And this is only the first case.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:19 pm

    KGNTs (Krylovs Scientific Center)work out the contours of prospective destroyer hull

    https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/26269.html

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 16 IMG_0640

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 16 IMG_0651

    pics below too
    https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/26260.html



    eehnie wrote:The points 1 and 2 explain this new. And this is only the first case.


    mate, more facts/sources less quotes please.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  eehnie on Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:26 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    The points 1 and 2 explain this new. And this is only the first case.
    \

    mate, more facts/sources less quotes please.


    Just because you hate to see predicted things becoming real.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:40 pm; edited 3 times in total

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