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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

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    Gibraltar
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Gibraltar on Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:17 pm

    Refitting 941s as UAVs and VTOLs submarine carriers it's a so crazy idea or even their gigantic size won't make place for this purpose?
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:41 pm

    Gibraltar wrote:Refitting 941s as UAVs and VTOLs submarine carriers it's a so crazy idea or even their gigantic size won't make place for this purpose?

    No way to see an aircraft carrier submarine. Crazy and stupid idea.

    What would be good is pack kalibrs and s-400 with the radar that can pup out of the sub when surfaced and create a no fly zone for submarine chaser like P-8 poseidon thus protecting other SSBN during deployment in the north where fighter can't go but bigger plane can.

    Kalibr would keep any ship away of the zone. And if they detect fighter formations, just go deep in the water and wait they go away.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  hoom on Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:44 am

    But the Nady didn´t order them. If they want 20 ships they should order 20 ships and not 3 from this yard, wait until they are finished and then order another 4 from another yard.
    Come on man, no modern navy goes out & orders tens of ships in one go like that.

    UK has only ordered first 3 Type 26es, similarly Aus has also only ordered first 3.
    Even US orders only small numbers at a time also but because of their continuous, giant, petro-dollar budget they've been able to make those orders consistently year after year after year.


    I'm not disagreeing with the desirability of a large standardised order & reduction of different types, I'm absolutely for that.
    But there are legit mitigating circumstances that partly excuse the mongrel bunch thats actually been produced.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Hole on Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:53 am

    The Navy did it with Karakurt. At least they could order their ships like their subs (Kilos), the right number for each fleet.

    The problems with Gorschkov are nearly solved so now they could order the numbers needed.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  hoom on Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:20 pm

    No they didn't.
    They have ordered 18 total but in several smaller groups over several years.

    According to Ru Wiki 20380 orders have been: 1* prototype initially, 3* serial at Severnaya, 'up to' 7* at Amur, 9* 20385 at Severnaya then finally there are 2 'with modified radar' at Severnaya.

    Orders for 22350 appparently got up to 10 in 2011.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:53 pm

    They ordered 1 from Amur. After that was finished the orderes another 3. Now "maybe" more. That is the problem. Even with planes you just can´t just order a few more because it takes a few month to build an (example) Su-30SM. Ships take even longer. To wait until a ship is build and then order another two or three more means that you will receive the next ship in three or four years.

    The Navy needs at least six 20380 per fleet. They should make a fix order from Armur and order another 12 from the yard on Krim. Same with the 20386. If this is the Navys ship for the future, why not make a fix order for at least 8? If there are problems with some systems you have to solve them and not change the whole design and go on to the next try.

    If they ordered ten Gorschkovs that would be a good sign. The Navy needs ships in this category/size. If they want a larger ship (like this supposed Gorschkov-M) they shoul order a separate destroyer class.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:56 pm

    They ordered 1 from Amur. After that was finished the orderes another 3. Now "maybe" more. That is the problem.

    You think it is logical to order 20 Amur class subs before the first one is even completed... seriously... who has the problem?

    Even with planes you just can´t just order a few more because it takes a few month to build an (example) Su-30SM. Ships take even longer. To wait until a ship is build and then order another two or three more means that you will receive the next ship in three or four years.

    That is right.... so you don't end up with three Zumwalt destroyers that are no fucking good for anything but still cost about 7.5 billion dollars each... or perhaps we should mention the 100s of LCSs they were going to build and suddenly realise the idea was better than the implimentation and now actually just want a multipurpose frigate... like the one the Russians are making.

    If there are problems with some systems you have to solve them and not change the whole design and go on to the next try.

    Why not get the design right in the first place before you start mass producing them and ending up with expensive turkeys that all need expensive fixes and upgrades before you can even put them into service.

    What would have happened if they built 20 Ivan Grens and then realised they are not what they needed?

    If they ordered ten Gorschkovs that would be a good sign. The Navy needs ships in this category/size. If they want a larger ship (like this supposed Gorschkov-M) they shoul order a separate destroyer class.

    Because they would not have propulsion systems for 8 of them?

    There is nothing wrong with what they are doing now unless you thing two critical things... and they both have to be true... first that WWIII is about to start, AND that the Russian Navy will play a significant part in it...

    If both of those are true then you are right.... they should be pumping out hit and miss vessels as fast as they can... half of them might be OK.

    Of course the odds are you will be wrong on both counts and you are suggesting they blow a lot of money for nothing...
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:56 pm

    Russia is not the Soviet Union and has no requirement to match NATO or the US navies... or even China.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Hole on Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:23 pm

    Who was talking about Amur class subs? Hoom and I were talking about 20380. And this ships are not like Zumwalt, but a decent desgin which is needed in larger numbers.

    The design of a ship should be right before you start building the first ship. The first ship should have a small lead before the second ship but you shouldn´t wait until the first ship is put into service before starting the second one. Part of the eletronics of the 20386 will be tested on Gremyashiy and apart from this only the form of the structure is new.

    The problems with the engines of Gorschkov (and other classes) are nearly solved. Now they should order more but instead some Admirals want a larger version. So the production of the Gorschkov would be stopped after four ships, a prototype of the new Gorschkov-M will be build and tested and maybe then they order more. Instead they should keep building the now proven design. If they want a larger ship, the Navy should order a destroyer. And I´m not talking about something like Leader, which is realy a cruiser.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Hole on Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:20 pm

    It was the right decision to slow down the building of the Gorshkovs to keep the yard busy until a domestic engine can be produced. Because it is difficult to pile up ships. Wink But now it is time to return to normal conditions. Do with the Gorshkov and Steregutschiy (Gremyaschiy) and Dershkiy what is already done with the Karakurt and Bykov and the Kilo subs and order decent numbers.

    And Ivan Gren was crippled by military (reducing the armament) and political (stop production, buy Mistral) decisions. In the end it is still much more flexible than the Ropuchas and Alligators.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  franco on Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:59 pm

    The newspaper "Red Star" on November 26, 2018 under the heading "Russia strengthens the status of the ocean power" published an interview with the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy of the Russian Federation, Admiral Vladimir Korolev. The fragment about the plans of military shipbuilding in the interests of the Russian Navy is of the greatest interest in the interview.

    - This year, the frigates Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov and Admiral Makarov, the large landing ship Ivan Gren, the icebreaker Ilya Muromets and the logistics ship Elbrus were taken to the Navy.

    In December of this year, tests of the frigate of the project 22350 “Admiral Kasatonov” are planned, next year the tests of the newest large landing ship “Peter Morgunov” will begin. It is these ships of the ocean class that we plan to admit to the Navy in the near future.

    The construction of a series of small rocket ships of the project 22800 at the Pella enterprise is also being implemented. Six such ships will be built for the Baltic Fleet, and a total of 18 units for the Navy. So, quite recently, the head small rocket ship of the project 22800 “Hurricane” completed state tests in the northern seas, demonstrating high seaworthiness and high reliability, which significantly surpassed design figures. MRK "Uragan" will be accepted into the Navy in December of this year.

    At Zelenodolsk Shipyard, the construction of Vasily Bykov-type patrol ships will continue. The repair and modernization of the Admiral Nakhimov missile cruiser and the Admiral Kuznetsov heavy aircraft carrier will continue. I note that the repair of TAVKR "Admiral Kuznetsov" is in full compliance with the schedule.

    The Navy continues to receive new equipment. At the end of 2018, the fleet will receive 416 units of modern weapons and military equipment, including warships and boats, support vessels, aviation equipment, as well as radar and anti-aircraft missile systems.

    In 2019, the Navy plans to accept the Prince Vladimir and Kazan nuclear submarines built at the Sevmash enterprise in Severodvinsk. The construction of a series of diesel-electric submarines of Project 636.3 for the submarine forces of the Northern Fleet will be continued, as well as serial construction for the Navy of at least 12 units of the newest diesel-electric submarines of the Lada type.

    It is planned that in 2019 about 30 ships and support vessels of various classes will be built for the Navy. Work will continue on the creation of nuclear submarines of the 5th generation, which will have even more advanced characteristics. In general, in the surface and in the underwater shipbuilding, the course will be continued for the construction of ships - carriers of high-precision weapons complexes with the best characteristics in maneuverability, stealth and survivability.

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:34 pm

    LMFS wrote:Shipbuilders suggest constructing more corvettes and frigates for Russian Navy

    The program of building ships for the Navy should be focused on long series of warships, which will make the process of their creation noticeably cheaper, says shipyard's CEO

    The St. Petersburg-based Severnaya Verf Shipyard has come up with a proposal to boost the number of corvettes and frigates that are built for the Russian Navy, Shipyard CEO Igor Ponomaryov told TASS on Wednesday.

    "We are building a series of ships for the Navy and are giving our proposals on increasing the construction volume and the number of new-generation frigates and corvettes. The Defense Ministry is working through these issues and I believe that corresponding decisions will be made at the state level. We can build simultaneously up to eight corvette-and frigate-class ships," the chief executive said.

    The program of building ships for the Navy should be focused on long series of warships, which will make the process of their creation noticeably cheaper, he added.

    "We are convincing both the Defense Ministry and the Navy in every possible way that ships should be built in long series as this is cheaper for the country and this is technologically more convenient for a shipyard and for a design bureau. Short series should be avoided: they will be expensive and lead ships will be delivered for acceptance much longer with the newest equipment. As for long series, it will be cheaper to train the crews: equipping training centers is cheaper and supplying spare parts is simpler," he added.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1031837

    This is not only convenient for the shipyard, but actually makes a lot of sense for RuN as far as I can see...

    With the announcement of plans to build 12 Ladas, an additional two Borei-As, and now an extra 2-3 Ivan Grens; it seems that the Navy has taken this advice to heart.

    Good.

    It's better to build the projects that you've already invested money and time into developing and testing; as opposed to constantly running after the pie in the sky of the most flashy and newest tech.
    I mean do the later too, but don't stake the Navy's capabilities on it. The Kalina, Husky, domestic Mistral variant et al. could easily be a decade off, and much of the investment into the previous classes would be wasted if you cut their procurement short in the hope of getting something even better in the future.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Tingsay on Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:18 pm

    Something they should have done 10 years ago.

    But....They can "simultaneously build 8 corvettes/frigates"?
    Aren't they already making 10 atm (5 steres, 3 gorshks, 2 grems)?
    Or do they mean lay down 8 in the same year?
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:12 pm

    The capacity has always been the biggest bottleneck in the Russian naval MIC...bigger than money. But it's increasing constantly, especially in the Northern Shipyard, also Eastern and Amursky Shipyard and both Crimean.

    The question is what happens when huge programs of corvettes are over in 2020s and navy will focus on making few larger ships. That's why Putin said last week that USC must diversify and attract also private and foreign orders.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  LMFS on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:20 pm

    flamming_python wrote:With the announcement of plans to build 12 Ladas, an additional two Borei-As, and now an extra 2-3 Ivan Grens; it seems that the Navy has taken this advice to heart.

    Good.

    It's better to build the projects that you've already invested money and time into developing and testing; as opposed to constantly running after the pie in the sky of the most flashy and newest tech.
    I mean do the later too, but don't stake the Navy's capabilities on it. The Kalina, Husky, domestic Mistral variant et al. could easily be a decade off, and much of the investment into the previous classes would be wasted if you cut their procurement short in the hope of getting something even better in the future.
    I guess they started building in series as soon as there was capacity of doing it reliably. That means, designs tested, additional projects like engines or weapons systems ready, and shipyards reasonably operational.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:50 pm

    LMFS wrote:I guess they started building in series as soon as there was capacity of doing it reliably. That means, designs tested, additional projects like engines or weapons systems ready, and shipyards reasonably operational.

    No they had capacity to make Steregushchys, yet they decided to improve it to Gremyashchy and again to Derzky.

    There's a proverb in the USN that the best is the worst enemy of good. Perfectionist obsession is not always productive. It's better to have 10 good Virginias than 5 excellent Seawolfs. Russians started recognising the priority of quantity over quality.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  LMFS on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:12 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    LMFS wrote:I guess they started building in series as soon as there was capacity of doing it reliably. That means, designs tested, additional projects like engines or weapons systems ready, and shipyards reasonably operational.

    No they had capacity to make Steregushchys, yet they decided to improve it to Gremyashchy and again to Derzky.

    There's a proverb in the USN that the best is the worst enemy of good. Perfectionist obsession is not always productive. It's better to have 10 good Virginias than 5 excellent Seawolfs. Russians started recognising the priority of quantity over quality.

    Agree, but remember what you said two posts above:

    The capacity has always been the biggest bottleneck in the Russian naval MIC...bigger than money.

    There is (and especially was) of course a component of coming late to manufacturing a design and then realizing that by commissioning it is already old... or seeing your development plan is not getting implemented at the speed you expected and you feel the need to engage in palliative measures. And then, there are also pure and simple bad decisions. As far as they do them with corvettes and not with major ships it should be solvable. This is a bit like watching the grass grow, but I personally think naval industry is slowly improving.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:15 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:...
    No they had capacity to make Steregushchys, yet they decided to improve it to Gremyashchy and again to Derzky.
    ..........

    Derzkii is excellent idea and they should keep at it

    In the meantime they need to keep building previous corvette versions until it's ready
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  eehnie on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:16 pm

    The President of Russia was very clear about the role of the shipbuilding industry in 2015:


    http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50060

    Russian Federation Marine Doctrine

    Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.

    July 26, 2015 16:00Baltiisk
    Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.
    1 of 3
    Vladimir Putin held a meeting to discuss the new draft of Russia’s Marine Doctrine.
    The meeting took place on board the frigate Admiral of the Soviet Navy Gorshkov. Participants included Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, Commander of the Navy Viktor Chirkov, and Commander of the Western Military District Anatoly Sidorov.

    * * *

    President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Colleagues, good afternoon.

    We have been updating the Russian Federation’s Marine Doctrine. This very complex document’s main aim is to provide our country with an integral, consistent and effective naval policy that will protect Russia’s interests.

    The Doctrine has been drafted and approved. This is a big event for our future navy, and for developing our shipbuilding industry, because the main customer – the navy in this case, and the Defence Ministry – formulate their future needs, and the industry must carry out these tasks. Industry adapts to new tasks depending on the needs formulated.

    Let me note that for the first time, the Doctrine also includes provisions of a purely social nature. They cover marine medicine, and provisions for improving the health of sailors and the specialists working in the marine field. This is very important. People need to know that from now on, our strategic documents for developing our country’s fleet and navy will address the social aspect too, and will give people what they expect from their service, as they carry out the tasks that face our country today in this very complex and important area.

    Let’s now discuss in more detail the Doctrine’s key provisions. Mr Rogozin, you have the floor.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
    verkhoturye51
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:30 pm

    LMFS wrote:There is (and especially was) of course a component of coming late to manufacturing a design and then realizing that by commissioning it is already old... or seeing your development plan is not getting implemented at the speed you expected and you feel the need to engage in palliative measures.

    1990-2010 era was harsh because they had to do introduce big improvements. But there's no excuse for a way they've done it. First wanting river Ivan Gren, next day sea-going Ivan Gren. It's like there's pro-US mafia in the Navy wondering how they can squeeze most rubles to get the least out of them.

    PapaDragon wrote:Derzkii is excellent idea and they should keep at it

    Sure, but they should've decided for it before 5 Steregushchies and Gremyashchies were put in production. Russia is supposed to be centralised authoritarian state, yet this sounds like bunch of women at hairdresser argueing which haircut looks the best. What is this? United nations?
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:42 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:...........
    PapaDragon wrote:Derzkii is excellent idea and they should keep at it

    Sure, but they should've decided for it before 5 Steregushchies and Gremyashchies were put in production. ....

    They have been in production long before Derzkii was designed

    And they still need to test it out first
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:31 am

    It is a balance... having long production runs is certainly good for production, but if you need a different ship for a different environment then you need a different ship.

    Commonality is a good thing so use standardised weapons and systems and sensors, but they don't want one ship design to try to do every job at once... especially a small ship.

    It is much harder to make small ships multirole, so having two or three different models is a good thing for Russia.

    With bigger ships the modular weapon design means they will become naturally more multirole.

    UKSK launchers on their own mean a ship can have land attack capability, anti ship capability, or anti sub capability and you can decide which when you are choosing the weapons to load into the tubes.
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:16 am

    slasher wrote:Just curious. Can you identify what these 13 might comprise of?

    Glad to help. All Shchuka, Shchuka B & Kondor boats that are now in service (4) or in modernization (9).

    GarryB wrote:It is a balance... having long production runs is certainly good for production, but if you need a different ship for a different environment then you need a different ship.

    Never heard anybody in Russia saying that they need 2 Gremyashchys and 10 Steregushchys. Only feeling sorry for not thinking already in the 1990s in advance, failing to recognise that what they need is modularity - bastion defence & blue water navy, so ocean-going corvette with UKSK (=Derzky).
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:28 pm

    USC says it has developed a project for a combatant with a standard design below the waterline but different modular, specialized superstructures for various mission areas


    MOSCOW, December 3. / TASS /. United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) has developed a project of universal warships with modular add-ons that can be transformed to fulfill four different goals. This was announced to journalists by USC President Alexei Rakhmanov.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5863661

    what kind of warship will that be? a kind of platform like armata?
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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:44 am

    The Army designed a universal carrier based on the BMP-3 and the T-90 tank, so any turret or weapon or sensors or whatever could use these vehicle chassis.

    It means you can easily develop a BMP-3 or T-90 based vehicle... examples might be that you could make an IFV based on the T-90 (BTR-T... troop transport-tank based), or you could make a self propelled gun based on the T-90 (like MSTA, which is based on the T-80 tank chassis).

    If you can work out all the vehicle designs based on those two vehicles then you just need two engine types for all the different weight vehicles... two types of tracks and wheels etc etc.

    Their new family vehicles offer the same... one heavy tracked, one medium tracked, one medium wheeled, and one light wheeled platform to base all needed vehicle types on... so you get a heavy tracked tank, a medium tracked tank, a medium wheeled tank, and a light wheeled tank... (and another light tracked tank in the form of Sprut). All the tanks can share the main gun and sensors and systems and equipment.

    For ships it means you can use the same hull and propulsion for a variety of uses... cruisers, aircraft carriers, landing ships, helicopter carriers, support ships, arsenal ships, intel/recon ships...

    The Kirov class cruisers included 5 hulls, four of the orlan class were completed as Kirovs and one was completed as a huge intel/space support ship called Ural.


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