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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:50 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Ulyanovsk was only ~20% complete at the USSRs dissolution, and Russia would have had zero use for her, and no money besides.  

    Apparently the hull was very advanced by the time it was scrapped. Several Tu-160 were scrapped also in Ukraine (Russia only got 8 from the 19 that were stationed there). It is clear to me there must have been all kind of foreign "incentives" to destroying that hardware of strategic value in order to make its future salvaging impossible.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:04 am


    If Chinese can deliver in bulk then buy ships. For every ten It won't matter If one is a stinker if other nine work properly.

    They don't need to (and should not) buy them with weapons​ and sensors. Just buy blanks and add rest of it later back home.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:02 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Ulyanovsk was only ~20% complete at the USSRs dissolution, and Russia would have had zero use for her, and no money besides.  

    Apparently the hull was very advanced by the time it was scrapped. Several Tu-160 were scrapped also in Ukraine (Russia only got 8 from the 19 that were stationed there). It is clear to me there must have been all kind of foreign "incentives" to destroying that hardware of strategic value in order to make its future salvaging impossible.

    It was around 29 percent but regardless Russia at that time had no money to finish it let alone build everything else they needed for it.

    The ship wasn't finished enough to float on it's own, scrapping was the only real option.

    Even if they could have somehow saved the hull, it would have been far to rusted and gone by the time they could have done anything with it.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:39 am

    Exactly!
    Its hull was laid down in 1988, but construction was cancelled at 20% complete in January 1991 and a planned second unit was never laid down.[1] Scrapping began on 4 February 1992 and was completed by the end of October 1992.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Ulyanovsk
    https://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=Ulyanovsk-Supercarrier
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:01 am

    This is worth a read... especially those who complain that ships are coming too slow even though engine problems have been solved...

    https://southfront.org/underreported-problems-of-russian-navy/
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:13 am

    After reading the article, it's clear to me that some problems r still waiting to be solved. Future delays due to engines can't be avoided as it will take time to solve them.
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    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:46 am

    Construction of warships of the ocean and far sea zone for the Russian Navy as of 10/01/2018

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 14 69713_original
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    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:40 pm

    Newly built Reinforcements for the Black Sea Fleet. Project22160 patrol ships "Vasily Bykov" & "Dmitriy Rogachev" and Project21631 small missile ship "Orekhovo-Zuevo" at the moorings of the Novorossiysk naval base. The ships were built deep inside Russia in Tatarstan and are getting ready to join the Black Sea Fleet

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 14 44728482_1162381333915554_2610729315783933952_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fath6-1

    https://barmacode1.livejournal.com/164909.html?fbclid=IwAR16b-UBDhfKtqz27N9ZTUkuU_SE2D1SbU-9xD9VVx09zQAJC_V4TxyoGz8
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:03 pm

    Diesel engine production update:
    https://vpk-news.ru/articles/45965?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com
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    Post  hoom on Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:48 am

    2nd Project 22100 patrol ship arrived at St Petersburg from Zelenodolsk
    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 14 22100_PETROPAVLOVSK_181101_03
    Interesting because there had been questions about the ability to use the river/canal system to get ships upstream from Zelenodolsk.
    Even though its with pontoons like the 22160s going downstream its quite a bit heavier ship on similar length/beam -> presumably deeper draft.
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    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:47 am

    "About emergency measures to resolve the critical problems of our surface shipbuilding"

    On the web resource vpk.name published another material of Maxim Klimov "On emergency measures to resolve the critical problems of our surface shipbuilding," which outlines the author's views on this issue.

    1. Critical issues:

    the ships of the near zone are worn out, outdated, have actually lost their combat significance;

    the ships of the far zone are outdated, worn out, the roads are in operation, only a few are left, the ship "collapse" in the early 2020s is inevitable.

    new projects and modernization:

    frigates of project 22350 - ordered 4, yes, we need a larger ship (project 22350M) - but we don’t have a power plant for it so far, so it’s advisable to increase the 22350 series (at least to 6 - 3 for the Northern Fleet and 3 for the Pacific Fleet);

    Corvette 20386 is a vicious concept, extremely weak weaponry, but the main thing is not even this, but the fact that a number of fundamental technical problems regarding the functioning of this project as a combat system have not been solved yet.

    Large landing ship project 11711
    - with all the flaws of the project today is the most effective project for the far zone (+ such ships are needed just for the functioning of the Navy), and therefore it is absolutely incomprehensible to limit the series to 2 units (and one on the NF), the required minimum is 2 units 11711 (and modernized with enhanced weapons!) As part of the Black Sea Fleet and Pacific Fleet, with a constant bothering in the far zone (Indian Ocean) of one such LLS;

    Project 22160 patrol ship - a scam by SPKB and a number of persons - everything is clear by the shortage of speed, after the seaworthy it will be clear (which is already clear now) and on the extremely limited seaworthiness on the use of helicopters and boats; however, the main thing is a vicious and erroneous concept - new threats and conditions require the use of much stronger ships in the far zone;

    Minesweeper Project 12700 is an outdated concept, in fact, it is “a ship before the first modern mine” (on which either the fuel pump itself or its only TNPA will be blown up) + problems with the production of a power plant (PJSC “Zvezda”);

    The Project 22800 is the most successful project of the present, but ... it actually was not needed by the Navy (since the upgrading of Project 1234 would be much more effective, and not for Uran, but for Caliber!, With the critical problem of the Navy unsecured anti-submarine defense in the near zone) + problems with the power plant (PJSC "Zvezda");

    Large anti-submarine ships of project 1155 - modernization is late - because “Tighten up” the maximum service life of cable routes + high operating costs, it is advisable to limit the modernization (“Caliber” - to regular PU KT-100, repair of the air defense system with new units from “Tor”, repair of power plant, new radar, “Minotaur” ...);

    Heavy nuclear missile cruisers project 11442(M) is terribly expensive, and the concept of this modernization is wrong (the “new Yamato”), obviously the modernization of other ships on this project is impossible financially and inexpedient for operational reasons (what Yamato against aviation in 1945 showed exhaustively) .

    A good option would be a normal modernization of 20380 (“Caliber” on inclined launchers, a “tower” with a radar from 22800, etc.), but Almaz Central Design Bureau “rested” in 20386 ...

    At the same time, the “near zone” is simply “naked” - both in the part of the anti-submarine defense (PLO) and in the mine defense (PMO), and according to the “long-range” collapse awaits us in the coming years.


    2. Solution.


    It is obvious that the Navy and the military-industrial complex are critically necessary mass series of efficient ships - both for the near and far zones.

    And that "that is" is advisable:

    an increase in the 22350 series by at least another 2 units (3 each in the NF and PF);

    11771 series increase by 2 units (for the Black Sea Fleet and Pacific Fleet);

    project 22160 - not to lay new ones, but the only effective opportunity to use the constructed and pledged ones is to ensure the safety of the Nord Stream route;

    taking into account the actual situation with the power plants, contacts to the Far Eastern 22800 should be canceled, and the already constructed small missile ships (in the “west”) should be completed by using diesel engines and the small output that Zvezda can provide - there are simply no other options;

    modernization of the MRK pr.1234 continue with the equipment of the “Kalibr” KRO (with inclined PU);

    modernization of 12700 in the process of mass production (with the completion of the first buildings) with the elimination of existing shortcomings

    The main thing - we need new projects:

    OVR Corvette;

    expeditionary frigate "far zone";

    A new minesweeper (Base minesweeper and in the future - mine-hunter).

    Due to deadlines, “shipbuilders” blame contractors, but there are “parts” that can reliably be counted on and provide for the emergency construction of ships, and prevent a “ship collapse” in the early 2020s. At the same time, it is obvious that, taking into account the financial situation, the cost of new ships should be strictly limited.

    The most acute situation on the TLO near zone. From what you can reliably count on - "Kolomna" (GEM) and "Minotaur". The project on which you can quickly “assemble” (and according to the “org. Scheme of Karakurt” - through the State Contract with the plant for construction) is the “small Cheetah”. The real (as shown by "Karakurt") term from "start" to GI is 3 years. At the same time, it is advisable to conduct the construction and delivery of ships in pairs (“half-division”) - taking into account the specific features of the application (group tactics).

    Similarly, by “far-field ship” (“expeditionary frigate”) - “assemble” something that can be quickly and reliably calculated. The power plant is obviously diesel (Kolomna), (3xDRA12000). At the same time, it is important to lay down the possibility to install the planned GES 20386 on subsequent ships of the series (so as not to "throw out the results of the ROC" in the basket). At the same time, the term from “start” to GI of 4.5 years is real.

    The closest conceptual analogue is a massive (more than 50 hulls) series of the OBV Navy Corps of the People's Republic of China, Project 056.


    Tab1
    MSCH 12700 has 3 key drawbacks:

    the outdated concept of the MIP (ship “before the first modern mine”);

    knowingly unsecured actual explosion resistance;

    inability to solve multipurpose tasks (at least at the level of pr.266M).

    + to this - problems with a series of diesel engines (real capabilities of PJSC "Zvezda" - one set per year). Obviously, ships are needed, but they need modernization.

    In this situation, there is simply no alternative to the emergency series of radio-technical equipment based on the project 10750E (with import substitution and increase in performance characteristics). The organizational chart is similar to “Karakurt” (through the state contract with the plant).

    In addition, the new minesweeper project of moderate displacement (about 500 tons) is definitely needed, which really provides a way to a new level of software and meets the highest requirements. But until we get the experience of using (including extended tests and research drills) with new mine action equipment and radio-technical equipment, we can’t even write a valid TTZ for a new PMHC today.

    Note. It is advisable to strictly limit the cost of new projects ships:

    Minehunter 2.5 billion rubles;

    OVR corvette 5 billion rubles;

    “Expeditionary frigate - 15-20 billion rubles.


    3. Organizational issues

    There is simply no alternative to the use of diesel engines in order to resolve the issue with the power plant of pr.22800, despite all the “assurances” of officials.

    Option - the use of diesel engines M507 with Small anti-submarine ships (with their replacement with OVR corvettes) provides already constructed and laid-off Small rocket ships, even taking into account the capabilities of one “Star”, i.e. This is a reliable and guaranteed solution to the problem.

    At the same time, it is advisable to raise the question of “BU” not only for 507 vehicles, but also for everything possible - for example, the artillery at the stern of the Small anti-submarine ships and Small anti-submarine ships (naval personnel) is in quite good condition and with a large resource it makes a lot of sense other fleets) use it on new ships. Similarly, permission to use, in agreed cases, products for general industrial use or those with a Register.

    Given the situation and the "legal conditions", this decision (resolution) can be made only by the Supreme Commander. Accordingly, it is advisable to urgently prepare a report and documents on these issues.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3416084.html
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    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:48 am

    Suggestions above is author's personal views

    Translation maybe isnt good in some points
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:28 pm

    George1 wrote:Suggestions above is author's personal views

    Translation maybe isnt good in some points

    Well I'm the last one to say nice things about surface fleet but this guy has some craters in logic:



    frigates of project 22350 - ordered 4, yes, we need a larger ship (project 22350M) - but we don’t have a power plant for it so far, so it’s advisable to increase the 22350 series (at least to 6 - 3 for the Northern Fleet and 3 for the Pacific Fleet);

    This part makes sense actually. He makes some half-decent points about Kirov upgrade too but that cat is out of the bag so nothing to be done there.

    But then we have following nuggets of wisdom:

    Corvette 20386 is a vicious concept, extremely weak weaponry, but the main thing is not even this, but the fact that a number of fundamental technical problems regarding the functioning of this project as a combat system have not been solved yet.

    He says that ship is advanced and therefore untested? How is that a problem? Especially since he complains about ships being outdated?




    Large landing ship project 11711 - with all the flaws of the project today is the most effective project for the far zone (+ such ships are needed just for the functioning of the Navy), and therefore it is absolutely incomprehensible to limit the series to 2 units

    Ha claims that this by any benchmark outdated and obsolete ship is necessary in large numbers and that numbers should be increased from 2 to, wait for it... 4!!!

    Sure...




    Project 22160 patrol ship - a scam by SPKB and a number of persons -.............. new threats and conditions require the use of much stronger ships in the far zone;

    22160 is offshore patrol vessel not actual warship, if he can't comprehend that difference then how is he even allowed to publish about this topic?

    Also his idea to use them to guard North Stream is some videogame level reasoning.
    Those who would actually attack North Stream will not be deterred or stopped by some patrol ships. Thy will not even notice that they are there.




    The Project 22800 is the most successful project of the present, but ... it actually was not needed by the Navy

    Type of ship likes of which saw more action in actual war then entire navy combined is somehow not needed? Okay...




    Large anti-submarine ships of project 1155 - modernization is late - because “Tighten up” the maximum service life of cable routes + high operating costs, it is advisable to limit the modernization (“Caliber” - to regular PU KT-100,

    Purpose behind existence of Udaloy destroyers are it's missiles. If they don't need new missiles and existing ones are enough then they don't need anything at all.

    Just change oil, install Wi-Fi and ride them until they rust away. Less money wasted.




    A good option would be a normal modernization of 20380 (“Caliber” on inclined launchers

    Angled Kalibr launchers on Steregushchiy corvettes?

    And where does he think those launchers could be installed? On helideck? Welded on main gun? In place of radar?

    Did he even see picture of those ships?




    modernization of the MRK pr.1234 continue with the equipment of the “Kalibr” KRO (with inclined PU);

    This one is a doozy. Razz
    So his idea is to waste time and money on complex and untested upgrade of tiny ships that are about to reach expiration date anyway?

    Talk about waste of effort, time, money and missile launchers.

    Only upgrade of these ships that makes sense is on handful of newest ones and with Uran launchers because it's quick and cheap.




    The main thing - we need new projects:
    OVR Corvette;
    expeditionary frigate "far zone";

    And now peak stupidity: to solve the problem of inevitable fleet collapse they need to start designing yet (several) more new ship classes from scratch. One of which is nearly identical to 22160 Patrol Ship which is a ''scam'' in his words and other is frigate inferior to Gorshkov which he says should be built as well.

    Not starting construction of more Derzkii corvettes? Not tweaking existing design like 22160? Not simply building more Gorshkovs?

    Nope, just start EVEN MORE new projects for shits and giggles. Because why? Author has a boner for Soviet-style angled launchers and can't comprehend that real enemy threats are submarines and not surface ships?




    I am calling it now folks: author is definitely one of Soviet fanboys from this forum. All data fits perfectly. lol1
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:40 am

    Vertical launchers require deep deck structures, but are much more versatile.

    With smaller ships you could get away with Medvedka, and Uran and TOR, but standardisation of UKSK is nice because all new missiles will be made to fit so upgrades will just be software.

    It wasn't that long ago when I talked about the standardisation of systems in Russian ships and my logic was questioned because why on earth would a corvette need a 2,500km range land attack cruise missile...

    The simple fact is that in a network each node is as useful as the things it brings.

    They could develop a version of Uran that fits maybe two stacks of three missiles in a UKSK tube and load your small vessels most of the time for short range anti ship, but when you want you can load out much more potent missiles like Onyx or Zircon and Kalibr land attack missiles.

    The point is standardisation, and multirole.

    A small ship will of course be limited, but having some capability in every area of naval warfare means when it is part of a group it can contribute in the most useful (for the situation) way.

    One corvette with one helo with a dipping sonar might not be hugely successful, but 4-5 operating together with sea bed sensors and ground based aircraft would be a useful force...

    Of course not every ship needs to be a battlecruiser bristling with weapons... for some missions a multipurpose weapon (like a medium gun) and some self defence missiles (SAM and anti sub and anti ship) is plenty.

    They had to send ships like Peter the Great on anti piracy missions... even a destroyer is overkill... anything with a 30mm gatling and small arms and a few inflatable speed boats and a helo is easily enough but it has to have the endurance to operate more than a week or two because it will be operating months away from home port and weeks away from friendly ports...

    Having said that modular multirole for the navy is valuable...
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    Post  hoom on Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:16 pm

    Agree with most of your comments PapaDragon, I'll add a few:

    I'm not a particularly big fan of 20386 but for mainly different reasons. (size/cost & armament/size)
    By the time first 20386 is ready the Barrier radar/EW system should be proven via 20385.
    Complaint about signal stability with hull flex is interesting but Ticonderogas apparently resolved that back in the '80s & new German F125s have same separated setup, I should think that hull twist compensation would be easily within the ability of the same system that adjusts the AESA beams for ship roll/pitch/heave.
    Modularity stuff should be at least partly proven with 22160.


    I've never understood the hardon so many people have for amphibious ships, a couple of extra IGs would probably be handy for replacing ageing Ropuchas but the design clearly has enough issues for it to be a low priority/wait for a better design.


    I do believe angled Kalibr launchers can fit in the slot instead of the Urans on 20380, pretty sure its been discussed here & I've seen it sketched on Balancer.
    But I don't think lack of Kalibr is the major issue with 20380s.


    If the big problem with 22800 has been suddenly dumping an ASAP order for 108* M507 engines (2 per M-507D-1 unit, 3 units per ship, 18 ships) on poor Zvezda who have been barely ticking along in the post-soviet era...
    Obviously the solution is to expect barely ticking along Kolomna to ASAP supply 3* DDA12000 (2* 16D49 per unit) each to a large order of bigger ships  sunny
    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 14 15cef7439d3b6c61858d44eaa5acca1b


    Basically the light frigate he's looking to mass-produce should be 20385, maybe with a bit of a redesign... which they already did and came up with 20386 Neutral
    Edit: Or 11356 (albeit still waiting on domestic engines/gearbox)


    Last edited by hoom on Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:28 pm


    That guy whines about "collapse of surface fleet in 2030's"

    If that is the case then there are only two possible solutions​ that would avert that event before that point in time:

    1) Pick one ship class (corvette or frigate but pick one) and start building it at several shipyards simultaneously (they should be doing this anyway)

    2) Purchase couple of dozen "blank" frigates (just hull and engine) from China and install rest of equipment themselves (Russian armament and sensors)

    Chinese have long graduated to building destroyers, cruisers and carriers so throwing out 20+ frigate hulls in several years should not be a problem for them

    What definitely isn't a solution to this problem he claims is so acute is that nonsense he is suggesting (starting new vessel classes from scratch)
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    Post  hoom on Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:40 am

    I also don't get his hate for Project 12700, its indeed equipped with old style mine trawling gear but its also equipped with a bunch of modern ROVs & AUVs, modern control software, dynamic positioning...

    According to global-security.org its got:
    2 x Alister 9-type AUVs
    2 x K-Ster I-type ROVs
    10 x K-Ster C-type ROVs
    1 x Inspector-MK2-type MCM surface unmanned vehicle

    Not sure if thats simultaneously or either/or
    Also apparently can't actually carry Inspector-MK2 since its too big to fit so tows it around, smaller domestic version is being developed.

    ROVs/AUVs can be put on other ships & 22160 in particular is probably a good candidate but surely a specialist crew on a specially built ship is going to be better at it.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:47 am

    Time to learn from the enemy:
    https://army-news.ru/2018/11/vmf-rossii-pora-uchitsya-u-vraga/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:11 pm

    Shipbuilders suggest constructing more corvettes and frigates for Russian Navy

    The program of building ships for the Navy should be focused on long series of warships, which will make the process of their creation noticeably cheaper, says shipyard's CEO

    The St. Petersburg-based Severnaya Verf Shipyard has come up with a proposal to boost the number of corvettes and frigates that are built for the Russian Navy, Shipyard CEO Igor Ponomaryov told TASS on Wednesday.

    "We are building a series of ships for the Navy and are giving our proposals on increasing the construction volume and the number of new-generation frigates and corvettes. The Defense Ministry is working through these issues and I believe that corresponding decisions will be made at the state level. We can build simultaneously up to eight corvette-and frigate-class ships," the chief executive said.

    The program of building ships for the Navy should be focused on long series of warships, which will make the process of their creation noticeably cheaper, he added.

    "We are convincing both the Defense Ministry and the Navy in every possible way that ships should be built in long series as this is cheaper for the country and this is technologically more convenient for a shipyard and for a design bureau. Short series should be avoided: they will be expensive and lead ships will be delivered for acceptance much longer with the newest equipment. As for long series, it will be cheaper to train the crews: equipping training centers is cheaper and supplying spare parts is simpler," he added.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1031837

    This is not only convenient for the shipyard, but actually makes a lot of sense for RuN as far as I can see...
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    Post  Isos on Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:24 pm

    He says nothing new...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:18 am

    Better later than never!
    China had similar problems with her navy, as it was mostly a coastal green water force of fast patrol boats & diesel subs, before large a # of FFGs & DDGs were built.
    These classes of ships form the backbone of a blue water navy.
    "When a student is ready, a teacher will appear".
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:39 am


    Oh my God, he reads this forum... and every other one...

    Such radical thinking
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:43 am

    He could've read this 1 I posted above: https://army-news.ru/2018/11/vmf-rossii-pora-uchitsya-u-vraga/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    Russian Navy will order two more frigates of the type "Admiral Gorshkov"
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    hoom

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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 14 Empty Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:46 am

    Its not like they haven't intended to build long series.
    Original new navy plan was for 20+ each of 20380 & 22350 along with a heap of Lada subs.

    But delays/problems/new tech upgrade/lets build what we can/nope lets find something else that we actually can build, has resulted in a large variety of small orders.
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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 14 Empty Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Hole on Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 am

    But the Nady didn´t order them. If they want 20 ships they should order 20 ships and not 3 from this yard, wait until they are finished and then order another 4 from another yard.

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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update - Page 14 Empty Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

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