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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

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    walle83

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  walle83 on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:59 am

    Is it any news of the old Kerch cruiser in the BSF? Will it be scrapped after the fire or could it see some more active duty?
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    franco

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  franco on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:09 am

    walle83 wrote:Is it any news of the old Kerch cruiser in the BSF? Will it be scrapped after the fire or could it see some more active duty?

    It is scheduled to become a floating museum.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:22 pm

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14648/this-video-about-the-navys-decaying-shipyards-makes-its-355-ships-goal-seem-laughable
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:59 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14648/this-video-about-the-navys-decaying-shipyards-makes-its-355-ships-goal-seem-laughable

    ...Regardless, these facilities are an embarrassment. We expect to see this type of thing in Russia, not in facilities that are critical to supporting the world's most powerful and technologically advanced Navy. ...

    Author is being too harsh on USN.

    Yes situation is sub-par but in comparison to situation in Russia it's an ideal to aspire to.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:17 am

    Of course... the US Navies goal is to match or be better than a country that spends less than 10% they do, has had serious problems like a political and several economic collapses, and of course open hostility from the western world for the last decade... and they are still failing.

    Of course they will be even worse off because they have publicly stated a goal, so when they fail to achieve that goal Papa is going to say their management is incompetent and need to be shot...

    Funny thing is that the missile tubes for their new submarines are not properly wielded and have faults... when did they hire stupid Russians for their wielding... I thought there was only perfect robot wielding in the west...


    hoom

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  hoom on Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:01 pm

    Charly015 has made an interesting new graphic http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/08/primer-acercamiento-al-grafico-de-los.html
    What the future Russian surface navy could look like based on some already built, whats building and currently announced planned numbers.



    I don't think I buy the idea of 3* big CVs as well as K.
    K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd. (unless magically Russia starts pumping them out like China)
    If including K & the Kirovs should probably include Ustinov at least if not some of the Udaloys.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:29 pm


    Looks like Charly015 has been smoking the good stuff... lol1


    hoom

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:04 am

    Those are all built, in build or announced plans though.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:50 am

    hoom wrote:Those are all built, in build or announced plans though.

    Shtorm-class​ fanart and Anime-class nuclear destroyer are just somebody's wet dream

    If they do build either carrier or destroyer they will definitely not be these

    This collage is just a joke

    hoom

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:01 am

    I'd call it optimistic rather than fantasy or its based off the publicly stated fantasy of senior Russian Govt officials.

    Those profiles are based on the models that have been publicly presented by companies submitting proposals so its not fair to just call them fanart even if nobody expects the final program to actually look like that.
    Obviously announced numbers aren't the same as contracts signed or construction completed, neither of which even guarantees construction completing & ships going into service.

    But do you believe there will be 18* 22800s built?
    • As far as I'm aware there aren't contracts for 18, there are 7 in construction but the number 18 has been repeatedly stated & seems a reasonable target.
    • 6* Buyan-M are in service, the other 6 in construction.
    • All 6* 22160 are laid down.
    • 1 of the icebreakers is laid down, pretty sure there is contract for the 2nd & I think its expected to be laid down soon.
    • All 10* 20380 & both 20385 are under construction.
    • Only the 1st 20386 is laid down, no progress made public but 10 is the number thats been announced as the plan for the class, it being intended to be the new main Frigate size ship. Clearly the actual number built has a fair chance of being different but when making a chart of 'what might the future navy look like' isn't it reasonable to take the announced 10?
    • Both Gepards are built.
    • 3* 11356 are in service the other 3 depicted are in construction, whether all 6 are completed, only the 3 already in service or only 1 more is still unclear but optimistically why not show all 6?
    • 4* 22350 are in service or under construction.
    • We don't know much about 22380M other than the project name, estimated 8,000ton size, some depictions from industry that would fit with a bigger/improved 22350 & announcement of 8 planned, its consistent to depict 8 of them.
    • 6* Lider based on the public display model & announced plan for 6.
    • 2* Ivan Gren, 1 is in service the 2nd is launched.
    • 2* Livina are again based off a model & CGIs made by a company submitting proposals, Russian Navy clearly wants them as replacement for the un-delivered Mistrals.
    • 2* Kirovs were completed, both are planned to be upgraded.

    K is getting new propulsion so can be expected to be around for a while at least.
    I've already expressed doubts about 3* large new CVs as well as K simultaneously but there's been officially stated desire for 4* carriers.

    Put all together like that it looks more impressive than when split out between 4* fleets & Caspian flotilla.
    Bear in mind that while this shows 19 new ships over 8000ton, UK alone will have 16 without even counting other EU, Japan & South Korea let alone China or US.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:27 am

    K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd.

    Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

    If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

    If they have two new ones that means they have three, so one in refit/overhaul, one on patrol and one in training... retiring the K just means less carrier support available.

    Three carriers are more useful than two.

    Actually the above chart shows three new carriers (CVNs)... plus the K... perhaps they could modify the K into an arsenal ship covered in UKSK bins and SAM launchers replacing the entire deck and hangar area, with enormous Kinzhal launchers with a solid rocket booster twice the length of the existing missile... effectively creating an Iskander with a range of 1,500-2,000km range.

    Being a naval vessel it will not conflict with the INF treaty or any other treaty... as long as its range is less than 5,500km it is not a strategic missile...

    Some times air support will be needed but often just lots of SAMs and cruise missiles might be what is needed... put a couple of 203mm long range artillery guns on board and you are set...

    marat

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  marat on Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:05 am

    GarryB wrote:
    K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd.

    Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

    If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

    If they have two new ones that means they have three, so one in refit/overhaul, one on patrol and one in training... retiring the K just means less carrier support available.

    Three carriers are more useful than two.

    Actually the above chart shows three new carriers (CVNs)... plus the K... perhaps they could modify the K into an arsenal ship covered in UKSK bins and SAM launchers replacing the entire deck and hangar area, with enormous Kinzhal launchers with a solid rocket booster twice the length of the existing missile... effectively creating an Iskander with a range of 1,500-2,000km range.

    Being a naval vessel it will not conflict with the INF treaty or any other treaty... as long as its range is less than 5,500km it is not a strategic missile...

    Some times air support will be needed but often just lots of SAMs and cruise missiles might be what is needed... put a couple of 203mm long range artillery guns on board and you are set...

    Russia will not have 3 new carriers in next 25-30 years.

    By that time K will be 5o years old and ready for new major refit, and this time that should be total remont and modernization. Bill would surely be bigger then 1 or even 2 billion usd.

    I don't think it is likely that they will have spare money to invest in such a old ship.

    Why modify 50 year old ship for new role? Why not build new one (If you actually need those kind of ship)?





    hoom

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:22 am

    Russia will not have 3 new carriers in next 25-30 years.
    Yes that was my reasoning.
    Not because K is useless, just the timescale for 3 new CV coming into service is very long unless they suddenly hit China pace.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:11 pm

    hoom wrote:I'd call it optimistic rather than fantasy or its based off the publicly stated fantasy of senior Russian Govt officials.

    Those profiles are based on the models that have been publicly presented by companies submitting proposals so its not fair to just call them fanart even if nobody expects the final program to actually look like that.
    Obviously announced numbers aren't the same as contracts signed or construction completed, neither of which even guarantees construction completing & ships going into service..........

    If author wanted to be taken seriously (which obviously wasn't his goal given the result) he would not have used images that have no basis in reality.

    Even speculative random hand drawn silhouette would have made more sense than what he decided to use.

    Cut away top part of that picture and numbers make sense but otherwise it's a joke.


    hoom wrote:.....
    But do you believe there will be 18* 22800s built?
    As far as I'm aware there aren't contracts for 18, there are 7 in construction but the number 18 has .........

    Yes there will. It's not just about numbers of ships announced. We (and others) came to that number based on amount of 75mm naval guns ordered so far.
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    LMFS

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  LMFS on Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:23 pm

    @PapaDragon:

    those drawings come from actual design bureaus, they may be pipe dreams, wet dreams or whatever but they are the only thing available which is not fan art
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:07 am

    GarryB wrote:Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

    If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

    Agreed. The K still has at least 20 years if service left in her, and more like 30+ all things considered as long as she receives periodic repairs/refurbs. When she comes out of her current refit, she will be a very different ship and these perennial nay-sayer clowns will look awfully stupid.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:50 am

    Most of its electronics are obsolete as is its armament and communications and other systems, so as it is the K could not continue on for very long, but at the end of the day a carrier is much better than no carrier, and I agree they are certainly not going to get three brand new CVNs by 2030... they might have one new one by then, which means having the K operating would be rather more useful than scrapping her and just having one carrier again. By 2035 they will likely have a second in the water, but I still think the K would be useful even then... lets face it the current plans are for the F-35 to be everyones standard fighter so even an Su-35 like aircraft operating from the K would be good enough most of the time... especially with the new types of radar it will be able to operate and the missiles also using such guidance systems too... will render stealth largely the white elephant it is... perhaps they might develop the F-14-2000... certainly much less stealthy than an F-35 but also much bigger payload, speed, range... etc etc.

    They don't need carriers to fight NATO or the US or WWIII, they are to assure Russian Navy access around the world and to protect Russian navy surface vessels... they don't need to be 100K ton super carriers either, but they can't be dinky little half carriers like the Hermes or Mistral.

    Bigger than the K for the fixed wing carriers and 30K ton plus for the Mistral replacements.

    No VSTOL shit.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Hole on Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:18 am

    Kuznetsov could still be used for training.


    Regarding the pic, I guess that there will be more small and medium size ships until all carriers and cruisers/destroyers are ready. Probably a second series of Bykovs plus more Karakurts.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:15 pm

    In the second half of 2018, Russian naval units in the Pacific are expected to receive two improved Project 22800 guided-missile corvettes, one Project 21980 Grachenok counter-sabotage high-speed armed patrol craft and some minor auxiliary vessels, ..
    And much more is to come. Pacific units expect to take possession of at least 30 new warships (11 new submarines and 19 new surface combatants) and seven new major auxiliary vessels by 2024, Muraviev said. These include guided-missile frigates, guided-missile corvettes and mine hunters.
    Bilateral cooperation in naval shipbuilding may also intensify. “Chinese companies already supply the Russian navy with limited amounts of ship engines to ease the shortfall caused by suspension of defense collaboration with Ukraine and Germany,” he said. ..
    At a time when China has built over-capacity in its shipbuilding industry, it would make sense for Chinese yards to build entire ships for Russia. “It may be possible that Chinese shipbuilders will be involved in some naval construction programs for the Russian navy,” Muraviev said. http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-expands-assets-and-naval-horizons-across-indo-pacific/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=c471ae694f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_15_01_12&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-c471ae694f-31607385
    If there is a demand, there'll be ready supply!
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  eehnie on Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:18 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    In the second half of 2018, Russian naval units in the Pacific are expected to receive two improved Project 22800 guided-missile corvettes, one Project 21980 Grachenok counter-sabotage high-speed armed patrol craft and some minor auxiliary vessels, ..
    And much more is to come. Pacific units expect to take possession of at least 30 new warships (11 new submarines and 19 new surface combatants) and seven new major auxiliary vessels by 2024, Muraviev said. These include guided-missile frigates, guided-missile corvettes and mine hunters.
    Bilateral cooperation in naval shipbuilding may also intensify. “Chinese companies already supply the Russian navy with limited amounts of ship engines to ease the shortfall caused by suspension of defense collaboration with Ukraine and Germany,” he said. ..
    At a time when China has built over-capacity in its shipbuilding industry, it would make sense for Chinese yards to build entire ships for Russia. “It may be possible that Chinese shipbuilders will be involved in some naval construction programs for the Russian navy,” Muraviev said. http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-expands-assets-and-naval-horizons-across-indo-pacific/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=c471ae694f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_15_01_12&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-c471ae694f-31607385
    If there is a demand, there'll be ready supply!

    Tis article is pure trolling:

    And there is more to come. Russian units in just the Pacific expect to take delivery of 37 new vessels by 2024 – a major acceleration compared to the 28 new units received in the region over the last decade. This indicates that despite scrapping programs deemed too expensive – notably the Leader-class destroyer and Storm aircraft carrier program – the Kremlin is moving ahead with a very ambitious naval upgrade.

    False. Zero credibility.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:32 am

    But even if it is, there's a grain of truth: Russia has under capacity in shipbuilding, while China has overcapacity, evidenced of the speed of her naval buildup in last decade. Who else is going to buy their medium/big ships? At best, u can count those countries on 1 hand!
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  eehnie on Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:47 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:But even if it is, there's a grain of truth: Russia has under capacity in shipbuilding, while China has overcapacity, evidenced of the speed of her naval buildup in last decade. Who else is going to buy their medium/big ships? At best, u can count those countries on 1 hand!

    By 2019 with the end of the upgrade in the Zvezda shipyard, I think the capacity of the Russian shipyards will be more than enough for the own Navy. Russia still will have to gain the hability of builiding some types of ships, like these of the Project 23560 and the Project 23000. This only will be assured with the end of the production of the first ship of both projects, but this is more a situation of building human capabilities than of lack of capacity. This is a situation that Russia wants to afford soon and will work hard to do it successfully by 2025 approximately.

    With the big amount of ships under construction, new orders of complete ships from China seem very unlikely for me.
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    Rodion_Romanovic

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:59 am

    eehnie wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:But even if it is, there's a grain of truth: Russia has under capacity in shipbuilding, while China has overcapacity, evidenced of the speed of her naval buildup in last decade. Who else is going to buy their medium/big ships? At best, u can count those countries on 1 hand!

    By 2019 with the end of the upgrade in the Zvezda shipyard, I think the capacity of the Russian shipyards will be more than enough for the own Navy. Russia still will have to gain the hability of builiding some types of ships, like these of the Project 23560 and the Project 23000. This only will be assured with the end of the production of the first ship of both projects, but this is more a situation of building human capabilities than of lack of capacity. This is a situation that Russia wants to afford soon and will work hard to do it successfully by 2025 approximately.

    With the big amount of ships under construction, new orders of complete ships from China seem very unlikely for me.

    They should never build ship abroad. The shipyards, engine manufacturers and equipment suppliers need work. Every ship that you build abroad, even if cheap, is a loss  for the national economy.

    Even simple supply ships should be built in house. Unless you have an immediate need and cannot wait (this is.not the case).

    You can establish a partnership with technology exchange, if another country is.building something that you can't yet, and they are willing to cooperate, but that is the only exception. Russia is not USSR that have to.subsidize polish or other foreign shipyards...



    Anyway, they have shipyards with capabilities. They need to improve quality standards, manpower, organization and management, and improve all the supply chain.

    Many of the recent problems where due to issues with the suppliers (engine and weapon systems) and integration work.

    Hopefully the engine issues should be solved.

    In addition they should fix the design and set the requirements without changing them all the time.

    And maybe use dedicated vessels or old ships for testing and integration of new weapon systems, instead of putting a lot of untested technology in the ships.

    Frigates or improved gorshkov (8000t destroyer) could be build at yantar (kaliningrad),  saint peterburg (severnaya verf, and possibly admiralty shipyard), kerch shipyard, and maybe amur shipyard if they properly reorganize.

    Leader class destroyers/ cruisers could be built at the baltic shipyards in saint Petersburg, where they built also the kirov class battlecruisers and they are currently building the big nuclear class icebreaker (I believe there is also a class of icebreaker called lider, just to add confusion)

    Aircraft carriers could be build at zvezda shipyard in the east, as soon it completes the expansion and update work, and maybe also at severnaya verf (that is also planned  to be expanded and refurbished). In addition the kerch shipyard should be able to cope with ship up to 70000 tons.

    And maybe in a few years time we will be talking about similar update and refurbishment work on all the historical shipyard in Nicolaev (where they built many of the largest ships of imperial russian navy and soviet navy), if the political situation changes (and they will have the money) ....
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:02 pm

    No many of their shipyards need modernization a lot of work was ignored on them after the fall of the USSR.

    Also, the engines issues and integration work isn't the main reason why they work so slow you could at BEST give them a couple of years due tot he engines 2-3 at most, why do people keep going on with this myth.

    The issues the Russian shipbuilding Industry has goes miles deep from incompetent management staff, unskilled staff, poorly kept shipyards and so much more. To say it's because of engines just ignores the mountain of issues they have.

    Now you can make excuses and pretend there are no problems or you can admit there are problems and fix them. I prefer fixing the problem rather than letting it get out of hand and the Russian shipbuilding industry has let it gotten WAY out of hand.

    This is not me "hating" or being a "pro-nato fanboy"
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:08 pm

    They r also building too many classes of ships & boats for the top brass mostly to satisfy greed of different designers & manufacturers.
    Yes, in an ideal world warships & auxiliaries must be built at home but since Peter I, Russia been importing many foreign built ships, military & civilian- there's no shame in it as a lot of other countries do the same, for different reasons. Frankly, their yards can't meet the demand of the VMF & Atomflot in modernizing, repairing & new construction of submarines, warships, Arctic icebreakers & tankers/bulk carriers in the desired time frame. Hence delays, delays, & more delays.
    China may also be interested in helping the RF with naval matters as they both want to keep NATO, USA & their Asian allies "at arm's length".
    So, if they do order some ships in PRC, I won't be surprised at all!

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