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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update

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    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:22 am

    Hole wrote:Nuclear war is the only hope for NATO. Conventional they are not superior. Supposeldy the got more than 3 million man, but they had Problems to field there 30.000 men "spear head". Production capacity? Who will pay for more production? The western oligarchs want money first, before they do anything, a war wouldn´t change that.

    1) During conventional wars, western economies adopt command economy regimes. Just as during WWII, the taxpayers
    will pay for it.

    2) I can't believe anyone thinks that Russia could field more production capacity than NATO. This is nonsensical. Germany
    was out resourced by its enemies.

    3) The USA doubled its GDP during WWII. The US elite thinks it can pull the same stunt today with a conventional war on
    Russia in Europe. While the Old World burns, Yankee dipsh*ts expect to be all warm, comfy and safe on their island continent.

    4) Russian military doctrine clearly states that tactical nukes will be used to counteract NATO's conventional advantage.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:50 am

    And you guys think that you have shipyard problems. Just be thankful you don't have to scrap the 8 reactors in the USS Enterprise. Conventional power for future US carriers perhaps? Read the sorry and expensive tale at
    One of the things that always struck me as outrageously negligent about nuclear power is how much of the disposal plans (still!) consist of 'leave it for a few decades & hope someone else comes up with the necessary tech, $$$ & somewhere to put it' Mad

    Russia has no shortage of ongoing nuke disposal issues also, though fortunately a bunch of it has been helped along by Western funding & technical aid (even if for not entirely altruistic reasons).
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:01 am

    hoom wrote:
    And you guys think that you have shipyard problems. Just be thankful you don't have to scrap the 8 reactors in the USS Enterprise. Conventional power for future US carriers perhaps? Read the sorry and expensive tale at
    One of the things that always struck me as outrageously negligent about nuclear power is how much of the disposal plans (still!) consist of 'leave it for a few decades & hope someone else comes up with the necessary tech, $$$ & somewhere to put it' Mad

    Russia has no shortage of ongoing nuke disposal issues also, though fortunately a bunch of it has been helped along by Western funding & technical aid (even if for not entirely altruistic reasons).

    Radioactivity decaying by logarithmic .
    Means if they wait 100 years then the gamma radiation decrease by one magnitude.

    In 300 years the fuels can be disposed/reprocessed by hand.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:49 am

    kvs wrote:
    Hole wrote:Nuclear war is the only hope for NATO. Conventional they are not superior. Supposeldy the got more than 3 million man, but they had Problems to field there 30.000 men "spear head". Production capacity? Who will pay for more production? The western oligarchs want money first, before they do anything, a war wouldn´t change that.

    1) During conventional wars, western economies adopt command economy regimes.   Just as during WWII, the taxpayers
    will pay for it.

    2) I can't believe anyone thinks that Russia could field more production capacity than NATO.   This is nonsensical.   Germany
    was out resourced by its enemies.

    3) The USA doubled its GDP during WWII.   The US elite thinks it can pull the same stunt today with a conventional war on
    Russia in Europe.   While the Old World burns, Yankee dipsh*ts expect to be all warm, comfy and safe on their island continent.

    4) Russian military doctrine clearly states that tactical nukes will be used to counteract NATO's conventional advantage.

    The most probable scenario is a quick gain of lands by russia over the eastern nato countries and use of tacrical nuks to stop the war and destroy one or two carrier.

    Naato lacks capacities to defend the east 24/7.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:19 am

    NATO is no defense organisation. Its purely for attack against 3. world countries.
    No western country is able to go to a "wartime" production. Not possible. In my time at the german army (90´s) we discussed this a lot. The government would have to make the decision to call all reservists in to the army, which would take month. The working force would loose hundreds of thousands of the best skilled workers. The companies would revolt. Western companies are all multi-national. There is no "national identity" left in the management class.
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    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:25 pm

    Construction of warships of the ocean and far sea for the Russian Navy as of 08/01/2018

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 11 65871_original

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/197079.html
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:42 pm


    Now before y'all start celebrating keep in mind that they are talking about overall number of ships not tonnage (Karakurt=/=Arleigh Burke) but they do correctly point out core differences in geography, strategy and weapons. US or Chinese fleets can still mop the floor with Russian one (as long as it's far away from Russian mainland otherwise it's whole different ball-game)

    Also, since author (D.Axe) is generic dipstick (note how he calls it ''Putin's fleet'') and source is usual toilet paper I posted whole thing here so you don't have to click on the link:


    LITTLE RED CORVETTES? Russia’s Building Warships Faster Than America—or even China

    Putin’s burgeoning fleet is meant to fight his kind of war, not Washington’s.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/russias-building-warships-faster-than-americaor-even-china

    The Russian navy will get a total of 26 new ships in 2018, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced this week at a reception honoring Moscow’s fleet.

    In raw numbers, the Russian navy is adding ships faster than the U.S. and Chinese navies are doing. Putin is preparing for a naval war. But the kind of war Putin is preparing for might not be the same kind of war the United States expects.

    At one level, Russia’s official shipbuilding numbers are deceptive. Putin included small boats and support vessels in his tally—ship types the U.S. Navy, for one, rarely bothers to include when it counts its own warships.

    What’s more, Russia’s new ships on average are much smaller than new American and Chinese vessels, and are less capable of traveling long distances to fight overseas wars.

    But all that might not matter.
    Experts told The Daily Beast that Putin’s new fleet is well suited to his increasingly aggressive foreign policy along Russia’s borders. “They are a land power after all,” Michael Kofman, a Russia expert with the Woodrow Wilson International Center in Washington, D.C., told The Daily Beast.

    There are big vessels as well. The Russian navy still possesses large, Cold War-vintage warships that it’s upgrading, including an aircraft carrier and a nuclear-powered battlecruiser that’s one of the biggest surface warships in the world, plus an impressive force of submarines.

    “The Kalibr, a rough analogue to the U.S. Navy’s own Tomahawk cruise missile, is central to Moscow’s efforts to build a fleet of small but powerful warships.”

    Many of these big old ships may be unreliable—they’re what Moscow deploys when it wants to make an impression—but Russia’s new warships, by contrast, are small, nimble, relatively anonymous, and surprisingly heavily armed with new Kalibr cruise missiles.

    “What they are doing is selectively dipping into the best of the old vessels—surface ships and submarines—and giving them more powerful weaponry while accelerating the build rate for smaller combatants with relatively big punch,” Iain Ballantyne, author of The Deadly Trade, a history of naval warfare, told The Daily Beast.


    To that end, this year the Russian fleet is accepting into service four surface warships armed with the latest Kalibr cruise missiles, plus three support ships and 19 other vessels, Putin said. By comparison, the U.S. Navy bought 14 large warships in 2018. The Chinese navy doesn’t release official ship counts, but observers counted at least 18 new vessels entering service with Beijing’s fleet in 2016.

    In all, the U.S. fleet includes 284 frontline warships plus another 124 support and transport ships that technically belong to the Defense Department’s Military Sealift Command. In 2015 the Chinese fleet numbered around 300 large ships, according to the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence.

    The Russian fleet also possesses around 300 ships. But nearly half are patrol boats and corvettes—smaller vessels that rarely exceed 1,000 tons displacement. The U.S. Navy operates just 13 similar small surface warships, and doesn’t even include them in its official count of frontline combat vessels.

    America’s most numerous warship type is the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, a $2 billion, 10,000-ton vessel capable of independently sailing thousands of miles from its home port while carrying scores of long-range missiles.

    Today the U.S. Navy possesses around 100 Burkes and other large surface warships. The Chinese fleet operates around 80 ships of similar size and armament to the American destroyers. Unsurprisingly, the Russian fleet includes just 29 such ships.

    Geography favors Russia’s approach to naval warfare. Where the United States must deploy ships across the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans in order to wage America’s wars and China is steadily expanding its own influence across the Pacific, Russia’s conflicts for the most part are along its own land borders.

    The Russian fleet can easily reach from Europe to Asia while still deploying from home ports. Russian territory stretches from Europe’s Baltic Sea to the Bering Strait, where the Russian mainland and the U.S. state of Alaska are only 55 miles apart.

    The high cost of big, long-range ships has made it difficult for the United States to quickly grow its fleet. President Donald Trump campaigned on a pledge to increase the size of the U.S. Navy to as many as 355 frontline ships. But the Navy recently admitted it could take until the 2050s to reach that goal. In favoring small, short-range ships that cost tens of millions of dollars apiece instead of billions, Russia can grow its own fleet more quickly than the United States can do.

    In recent years the Russian fleet has directly supported ground operations in Crimea while putting pressure on NATO along the alliance’s eastern flank. Moscow’s fleet is busiest in the confined, relatively shallow waters of the Black, Baltic, and Caspian seas. Russian warships rarely venture more than a few hundred miles from their home ports.

    But the ships don’t have to sail far in order to give a major boost to Russian military operations. In early 2014 Russian ships quickly cut off and wiped out the Ukrainian navy in the Black Sea as part of Moscow’s invasion of Crimea.

    The short range of Russian warships helps to explain why Putin was keen to intervene in Syria starting in late 2015. As part of the intervention on behalf of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, Putin’s fleet gained access to Russia’s only ports on the Mediterranean Sea, giving Russian ships their only direct access to southern Europe’s maritime borders.

    In October 2015, Russian corvettes sailing on the Caspian Sea fired 26 Kalibr missiles at targets in Syria, more than a thousand miles away. It was the combat debut for the 30-foot-long, precision-guided munition. “This is Russia demonstrating on a global stage that it has a lot of reach,” one U.S. military official said of the missile strike.

    Corvettes armed with Kalibrs “can form a small fleet that would be able to come close to an enemy, deliver a missile strike and immediately leave the area,” Russian state media noted.

    The Kalibr, a rough analogue to the U.S. Navy’s own Tomahawk cruise missile, is central to Moscow’s efforts to build a fleet of small but powerful warships. “Why build a huge surface combatant with all the complexity and expense that entails?” Ballantyne asked rhetorically. “You can churn out smaller vessels with Kalibr missiles and then distribute them to your crucial spheres of interest.”

    Russian naval modernization efforts are only just beginning, following years of inadequate funding and industrial dysfunction. “We will continue taking measures aimed at strengthening and developing the fleet, making it better equipped,” Putin said.

    As the Russian fleet rebuilds, small ships with big missiles will probably become an even more significant part of the overall force. With a single corvette costing just $30 million, “it’s easy to keep shipyards full of corvette and light frigate orders,” Kofman said.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:08 pm


    One thing that surprised me is construction pace of Bykov-class patrol ship. They are being built at decent speed. One of the reasons for it is probably lighter equipment load but whatever.

    This production speed opens up some options that I was not expecting earlier.

    While they can't use these as platform to build true multi-role ships what they definitely can do is to order dedicated anti-sub version. They just need to add bow sonar, towed sonar is already available as well as helicopter. 8 anti-sub missiles fit in 2 containers and maybe AA VLS behind main gun (if they feel like it but it's not a dealbreaker). They can probably even squeeze in Pantsir somewhere, who knows...

    With this they would get replacement for older dedicated anti-sub corvettes. Also with 2 month endurance they would be able to go on patrols for very long time which is handy since you don't know where subs are unlike land or surface targets (so Karakurts can get by with 2 week endurance without an issue, they don't have to look for their targets since someone else does it for them)

    Having anti-sub boat roaming submarine bastion for 2 months straight would be pretty neat.

    Given the production speed of Karakurts and Bykovs they would be able to replace entire fleet of old missile ships and anti-sub boats 1:1.

    This would allow Russia to create very thick padding of their home waters with fresh ships and free up all larger ships for long distance ops.
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    Post  hoom on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:49 am

    LITTLE RED CORVETTES? Russia’s Building Warships Faster Than America—or even China
    Clickbait headline, same old propaganda & half-truths for 'content'...

    Does at least sort of acknowledge the validity of Jeune Ecole style for Russias geographic situation but still manages to portray it as some kind of proof of Putin Russia Aggression Russia Aggression Russia...

    One thing that surprised me is construction pace of Bykov-class patrol ship. They are being built at decent speed. One of the reasons for it is probably lighter equipment load but whatever.
    Sadly not really, Bykov was laid down in Feb 2014, launched August 2017, 2nd boat almost bang on 3yrs from laid down to launch which isn't exactly rapid for 1500tons & very limited armament/electronics.
    Does partly have excuse that several systems particularly engines were delayed by need for import substitution.

    Edit: At the moment there is quite a surge of ships coming into service after a couple of years with not much, I think there's 3 main causes: several long delayed projects finally getting finished/kicked into order (IG, 22350, 11356, Amur 20380s), some newer stuff that had import substitution related delays (22160, 21631, 20385) & new stuff like 22800 just finishing in fairly normal time.
    (bunch of auxiliary projects will fit into those categories also)


    Last edited by hoom on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  walle83 on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:15 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The BSF will be without a flagship for [at least a few more] years
    http://www.ng.ru/armies/2018-07-17/100_moscow170718.html?print=Y

    Bad news. To plug this gap, they may transfer a CG from the NF or PF.
    In a few years, the Ukraina fate may also be resolved- we will see if Russia will get her before she's scrapped!  

    Oh god I hope not. If they cant pay to keep the current flagship in active service they absolutly wont afford the cost for getting that old lady in shape.
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    Post  walle83 on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:59 am

    Is it any news of the old Kerch cruiser in the BSF? Will it be scrapped after the fire or could it see some more active duty?
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    Post  franco on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:09 am

    walle83 wrote:Is it any news of the old Kerch cruiser in the BSF? Will it be scrapped after the fire or could it see some more active duty?

    It is scheduled to become a floating museum.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:22 pm

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14648/this-video-about-the-navys-decaying-shipyards-makes-its-355-ships-goal-seem-laughable
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:59 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14648/this-video-about-the-navys-decaying-shipyards-makes-its-355-ships-goal-seem-laughable

    ...Regardless, these facilities are an embarrassment. We expect to see this type of thing in Russia, not in facilities that are critical to supporting the world's most powerful and technologically advanced Navy. ...

    Author is being too harsh on USN.

    Yes situation is sub-par but in comparison to situation in Russia it's an ideal to aspire to.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:17 am

    Of course... the US Navies goal is to match or be better than a country that spends less than 10% they do, has had serious problems like a political and several economic collapses, and of course open hostility from the western world for the last decade... and they are still failing.

    Of course they will be even worse off because they have publicly stated a goal, so when they fail to achieve that goal Papa is going to say their management is incompetent and need to be shot...

    Funny thing is that the missile tubes for their new submarines are not properly wielded and have faults... when did they hire stupid Russians for their wielding... I thought there was only perfect robot wielding in the west...

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    Post  hoom on Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:01 pm

    Charly015 has made an interesting new graphic http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/08/primer-acercamiento-al-grafico-de-los.html
    What the future Russian surface navy could look like based on some already built, whats building and currently announced planned numbers.

    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 11 Armada_rusa_a_futuro

    I don't think I buy the idea of 3* big CVs as well as K.
    K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd. (unless magically Russia starts pumping them out like China)
    If including K & the Kirovs should probably include Ustinov at least if not some of the Udaloys.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:29 pm


    Looks like Charly015 has been smoking the good stuff... lol1

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    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:04 am

    Those are all built, in build or announced plans though.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:50 am

    hoom wrote:Those are all built, in build or announced plans though.

    Shtorm-class​ fanart and Anime-class nuclear destroyer are just somebody's wet dream

    If they do build either carrier or destroyer they will definitely not be these

    This collage is just a joke
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    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:01 am

    I'd call it optimistic rather than fantasy or its based off the publicly stated fantasy of senior Russian Govt officials.

    Those profiles are based on the models that have been publicly presented by companies submitting proposals so its not fair to just call them fanart even if nobody expects the final program to actually look like that.
    Obviously announced numbers aren't the same as contracts signed or construction completed, neither of which even guarantees construction completing & ships going into service.

    But do you believe there will be 18* 22800s built?
    • As far as I'm aware there aren't contracts for 18, there are 7 in construction but the number 18 has been repeatedly stated & seems a reasonable target.
    • 6* Buyan-M are in service, the other 6 in construction.
    • All 6* 22160 are laid down.
    • 1 of the icebreakers is laid down, pretty sure there is contract for the 2nd & I think its expected to be laid down soon.
    • All 10* 20380 & both 20385 are under construction.
    • Only the 1st 20386 is laid down, no progress made public but 10 is the number thats been announced as the plan for the class, it being intended to be the new main Frigate size ship. Clearly the actual number built has a fair chance of being different but when making a chart of 'what might the future navy look like' isn't it reasonable to take the announced 10?
    • Both Gepards are built.
    • 3* 11356 are in service the other 3 depicted are in construction, whether all 6 are completed, only the 3 already in service or only 1 more is still unclear but optimistically why not show all 6?
    • 4* 22350 are in service or under construction.
    • We don't know much about 22380M other than the project name, estimated 8,000ton size, some depictions from industry that would fit with a bigger/improved 22350 & announcement of 8 planned, its consistent to depict 8 of them.
    • 6* Lider based on the public display model & announced plan for 6.
    • 2* Ivan Gren, 1 is in service the 2nd is launched.
    • 2* Livina are again based off a model & CGIs made by a company submitting proposals, Russian Navy clearly wants them as replacement for the un-delivered Mistrals.
    • 2* Kirovs were completed, both are planned to be upgraded.

    K is getting new propulsion so can be expected to be around for a while at least.
    I've already expressed doubts about 3* large new CVs as well as K simultaneously but there's been officially stated desire for 4* carriers.

    Put all together like that it looks more impressive than when split out between 4* fleets & Caspian flotilla.
    Bear in mind that while this shows 19 new ships over 8000ton, UK alone will have 16 without even counting other EU, Japan & South Korea let alone China or US.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:27 am

    K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd.

    Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

    If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

    If they have two new ones that means they have three, so one in refit/overhaul, one on patrol and one in training... retiring the K just means less carrier support available.

    Three carriers are more useful than two.

    Actually the above chart shows three new carriers (CVNs)... plus the K... perhaps they could modify the K into an arsenal ship covered in UKSK bins and SAM launchers replacing the entire deck and hangar area, with enormous Kinzhal launchers with a solid rocket booster twice the length of the existing missile... effectively creating an Iskander with a range of 1,500-2,000km range.

    Being a naval vessel it will not conflict with the INF treaty or any other treaty... as long as its range is less than 5,500km it is not a strategic missile...

    Some times air support will be needed but often just lots of SAMs and cruise missiles might be what is needed... put a couple of 203mm long range artillery guns on board and you are set...
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    Post  marat on Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:05 am

    GarryB wrote:
    K would probably go out of service either immediately after 1st new CV completes (if one ever starts) or at most the 2nd.

    Why spend money overhauling the K if it is useless?

    If it is not useless why scrap it just because you have one new one?

    If they have two new ones that means they have three, so one in refit/overhaul, one on patrol and one in training... retiring the K just means less carrier support available.

    Three carriers are more useful than two.

    Actually the above chart shows three new carriers (CVNs)... plus the K... perhaps they could modify the K into an arsenal ship covered in UKSK bins and SAM launchers replacing the entire deck and hangar area, with enormous Kinzhal launchers with a solid rocket booster twice the length of the existing missile... effectively creating an Iskander with a range of 1,500-2,000km range.

    Being a naval vessel it will not conflict with the INF treaty or any other treaty... as long as its range is less than 5,500km it is not a strategic missile...

    Some times air support will be needed but often just lots of SAMs and cruise missiles might be what is needed... put a couple of 203mm long range artillery guns on board and you are set...

    Russia will not have 3 new carriers in next 25-30 years.

    By that time K will be 5o years old and ready for new major refit, and this time that should be total remont and modernization. Bill would surely be bigger then 1 or even 2 billion usd.

    I don't think it is likely that they will have spare money to invest in such a old ship.

    Why modify 50 year old ship for new role? Why not build new one (If you actually need those kind of ship)?




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    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:22 am

    Russia will not have 3 new carriers in next 25-30 years.
    Yes that was my reasoning.
    Not because K is useless, just the timescale for 3 new CV coming into service is very long unless they suddenly hit China pace.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:11 pm

    hoom wrote:I'd call it optimistic rather than fantasy or its based off the publicly stated fantasy of senior Russian Govt officials.

    Those profiles are based on the models that have been publicly presented by companies submitting proposals so its not fair to just call them fanart even if nobody expects the final program to actually look like that.
    Obviously announced numbers aren't the same as contracts signed or construction completed, neither of which even guarantees construction completing & ships going into service..........

    If author wanted to be taken seriously (which obviously wasn't his goal given the result) he would not have used images that have no basis in reality.

    Even speculative random hand drawn silhouette would have made more sense than what he decided to use.

    Cut away top part of that picture and numbers make sense but otherwise it's a joke.


    hoom wrote:.....
    But do you believe there will be 18* 22800s built?
    As far as I'm aware there aren't contracts for 18, there are 7 in construction but the number 18 has .........

    Yes there will. It's not just about numbers of ships announced. We (and others) came to that number based on amount of 75mm naval guns ordered so far.
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:23 pm

    @PapaDragon:

    those drawings come from actual design bureaus, they may be pipe dreams, wet dreams or whatever but they are the only thing available which is not fan art

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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 11 Empty Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update

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