Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Share
    avatar
    Singular_Transform

    Posts : 612
    Points : 608
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri May 18, 2018 8:17 am

    It happens with every new product.

    New product needs new process, it needs debugging/fine tuning .

    So, if the lead time of the components are say 12 month, and you learn the process , there can be cases when you recognise issue only during the final assembly affecting the design/beginning of the manufacturing process..

    Means you have to re-manufacture the part, and potentially you have to repeat it several times.

    So, the first part is the most time consuming to make, the second and consecutive units are faster/ cheaper than that.

    See the Ford carrier issues, they have to re-design the whole ship - and they had to do it because of the use of a new supplier for arresting gear/catapult, who has to learn the processes.


    So ,the most important ship of the RuN is the Kazan, if they commission it then the rest of the submarines will be easy ride. Or the surface ships : )
    avatar
    LMFS

    Posts : 157
    Points : 157
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  LMFS on Fri May 18, 2018 2:03 pm

    Hole wrote:A lot has to do with politics and the Navy not knowing what it wants.

    You start building a ship and than someone comes and tells you: "Stop using this or that component, because it´s foreign" or part of your suppliers stops delivering items because you are in Russia... Well, that´s not good for productivity.

    Then look at the Steregutschij. Series production in the first yard was accelerating, then comes the Navy and wants the ships with cruise missiles. The yard stops production, the ship is redesingned and the production starts over again. But years are lost. Same with the Gren. First the Navy wants six vessels, mostly for coastal and littoral areas. But it should be well armed. Than they change their mind, reduce the weapon load, just to save a few bucks. Then Medveded/Serdukhov come along and decide, that the Mistral will be bought. The production is stopped for years.
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend
    avatar
    Hole

    Posts : 391
    Points : 391
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 42
    Location : Merkelland

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Hole on Fri May 18, 2018 5:08 pm

    Is already happening. Look at he Karakurt. Designed from the outset with all-russian systems. Navy is also on board (no pun intended), because there are now contracts with four (?) yards for 18+ ships.
    avatar
    Singular_Transform

    Posts : 612
    Points : 608
    Join date : 2016-11-13

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri May 18, 2018 6:54 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend


    They call it as "learning curve".
    Again, see ford carrier.
    avatar
    LMFS

    Posts : 157
    Points : 157
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  LMFS on Fri May 18, 2018 7:04 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend


    They call it as "learning curve".
    Again, see ford carrier.
    The Ford case looks rather like a fiscal cliff, is not the best example of how things should work IMO.
    Of course I assume they will eventually get over it but the issue is when you are so ineffective you spend and spend and go nowhere. This non acceptable for the government since you lose money and get nothing in return. I am crossing my fingers to start seeing faster deliveries to the navy in coming years.
    avatar
    Hole

    Posts : 391
    Points : 391
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 42
    Location : Merkelland

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Hole on Fri May 18, 2018 10:18 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend


    They call it as "learning curve".
    Again, see ford carrier.

    What do you mean? Ford is perfect... for the "shareholder" of the MIC.

    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 127
    Points : 125
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Singular_trafo on Fri May 18, 2018 11:01 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    Sure

    Lack of money + unclear priorities + change of components + inefficient production--> delays --> need for redesign --> start the cycle again

    Definitely not looking good. Let's see if they manage to correct this trend


    They call it as "learning curve".
    Again, see ford carrier.
    The Ford case looks rather like a fiscal cliff, is not the best example of how things should work IMO.
    Of course I assume they will eventually get over it but the issue is when you are so ineffective you spend and spend and go nowhere. This non acceptable for the government since you lose money and get nothing in return. I am crossing my fingers to start seeing faster deliveries to the navy in coming years.

    Both case, the Ford (F35) and the Kazan is the result of the same problem, but with different solutions.

    The Ford main problems are the arresting and catapult systems.
    Both of them new and challenging design, and both of them manufactured by a company without any experience on the field.

    Due to that it takes one decade to mature the design - at least.
    With the Kazan the Russian MIC faced similar issue.
    The Yassen was a finished soviet submarine, but for the Kazan they had to rebuild the complete supply chain, re design major elements, create new businesses ,processes .

    The similarity ending here.

    With the Ford the US choose the path to aim the original schedule, and try to keep the cost low ( yes, this is the low cost version of the Ford building : ) )

    It means that they installed the systems without proper test, and finalized the ship design without proven equipment.

    To rub salt into the wound they already building the second and third carrier.

    Means that instead to say increase the arresting gear dimensions by 200mm, they have to spend enormous amount of money to found a way to fit the final equipment into the limited space.Or accept that the ship will not ever work as intended ( looks like this will be the favored solution (

    Te Russians simply stopped the construction process, and shifted the consecutive ships to the right.
    Means that they still have opportunity to modify the ship if it needed with way less cost.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun May 27, 2018 3:17 am