Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Share
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5280
    Points : 5386
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:02 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Is it because it's a different time now & there's no Stalin & Beria anymore to shoot/send them to GULAG for slow completion of orders? What would make them better? New equipment? More qualified management, personnel & yards?  

    Oh solution is simple: give contracts to shipyards who get results. Right now they give out contracts based on tradition. Shipyards in Kaliningrad and one in St. Pete should have been liquidated by now given their performance.

    Look at Pella: first Naval vessel ever and it's out on time. Take away contracts from shitty shipyards and give it to them.

    Find others like them and repeat the process. And build ship classes in more than one shipyard.
    avatar
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 172
    Points : 174
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:46 pm

    What about capital ships that can be built only in big drydocks like in Nikolaev, now in Ukraine? To build them & req. infrastructure also takes many years. If they didn't have to build all those new icebreakers, do u think the new warships could be there sooner?
    OTH, RF has her nuclear triad & can do w/o big surface fleet, especially now as the Chinese Navy will keep JMSDF & USN busy in W. Pac. & possibly elsewhere!
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5537
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Militarov on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:19 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:What about capital ships that can be built only in big drydocks like in Nikolaev, now in Ukraine? To build them & req. infrastructure also takes many years. If they didn't have to build all those new icebreakers, do u think the new warships could be there sooner?
    OTH, RF has her nuclear triad & can do w/o big surface fleet, especially now as the Chinese Navy will keep JMSDF & USN busy in W. Pac. & possibly elsewhere!

    Even if they somehow suddenly got access to all the required infrastructure to build capital ships they would need time to develop many technologies from scratch. So capital ships would still be on fairly long stick. But seems that in few shipyards infrastructure is being slowly renewed and new shipyard is being built so that will be covered though next decade hopefully.

    Well... i wouldnt look at China as much of an ally tbh Smile
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5280
    Points : 5386
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:58 am

    .
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1361
    Points : 1362
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:.
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.

    I disagree, the Super-Gorshkov would also be a good investment.
    Unless you mean the SG when you mentioned "missile ships".
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5280
    Points : 5386
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:49 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:.
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.

    I disagree, the Super-Gorshkov would also be a good investment.
    Unless you mean the SG when you mentioned "missile ships".

    No, Super Gorshkov would only be good investment if they were building Gorshkovs en masse. But they are not. They aren't even building any, they are just finishing old order placed in bygone era.

    It's been years since they even placed order for a frigate, let alone laid one down. Something is seriously wrong here. Ukrainian engine excuse no longer flies since it's been resolved.

    They have Gorshkov project up and running. They should be building more of them instead of chasing yet another pie in the sky like Super Gorshkov. How many decades until they get first Super Gorshkov built let alone delivered? Their entire fleet will rust away by then.

    And when I say missile ship I mean stuff like Buyans and Karakurts.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5537
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Militarov on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:01 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:.
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.

    I disagree, the Super-Gorshkov would also be a good investment.
    Unless you mean the SG when you mentioned "missile ships".

    Super Gorshkovs wouldnt be capital ships tho.
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1361
    Points : 1362
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:18 pm

    Dude, i am not saying they should stop building Gorshkovs, it's just that the SG could also be built, it should take less time and money to build than it would take to build the Lider, while also being able to fulfill the role of both Destroyer and Cruiser, a good investment IMO.

    Yea, those are Corvettes.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3095
    Points : 3216
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:30 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:.
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.

    I disagree, the Super-Gorshkov would also be a good investment.
    Unless you mean the SG when you mentioned "missile ships".

    No, Super Gorshkov would only be good investment if they were building Gorshkovs en masse. But they are not. They aren't even building any, they are just finishing old order placed in bygone era.

    It's been years since they even placed order for a frigate, let alone laid one down. Something is seriously wrong here. Ukrainian engine excuse no longer flies since it's been resolved.

    The monetarist lunatics are running the asylum in Russia. Every penny needs to be pinched. Because other interested parties
    have first dibs on these pennies. As usual, Russia and Russians are at the bottom of the list for consideration.

    People on this board for the most part can't read or understand Russian. So they do not see the insanity of the zero deficit
    mafia in Russia. The notion of running a deficit at all is turned into some sort of end of the world scenario for Russia. They
    are actually depleting reserve funds to achieve zero deficits. Reserve funds are not for balancing budgets, they are for
    crisis situations.

    At the end of the day, Russian military procurement is facing a variant of the absence of funds back in the early 2000s. It
    is not as bad, but as you note, it is not all that mild either.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1305
    Points : 1305
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:48 pm

    That has nothing to do with it. It has more to do with not knowing what they want and what is resolved or not. Gorshkovs took forever thanks to the air defense system. Now the shipyards say this or that about a new class of ship.  The money is already available, and out of $40B in 1 year, it isn't a problem financially. It entirely based upon USC and their bullshit.  Now MoD doesn't know what they want. Only certain thing they want is the corvettes.

    This has been evident for a very, very long time.

    Some of you need to stop this hysterical bullshit of money this and that when it has nothing to do with it.  First off, throwing money around at an issue will cause same effect in US MiC. Expensive sub par shit.  As per Shoygu in recent past, only 40% of finances available from SAP2020 has been spent, and that is something since we are coming up to 2018.  I think that is because before ordering, they are really wanting to complete systems or end up with same bullshit.  This is obvious, you don't go and purchase a bunch of duds and then spend shit tons to fix it. They did this already with Su-35. F-35 is perfect example of this. My evidence of this is that the ships were laid down even in a small budget era compared to now or even in near future. Yet during the two biggest spending periods of 2015 and 16, not a hull laid down. So it really isn't money. It is definitely something else.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 5280
    Points : 5386
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:22 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Dude, i am not saying they should stop building Gorshkovs, it's just that the SG could also be built, it should take less time and money to build than it would take to build the Lider, while also being able to fulfill the role of both Destroyer and Cruiser, a good investment IMO.

    Yea, those are Corvettes.

    Nothing wrong with building Super Gorshkov but they are not building anything at all. Not a single ship above corvette.

    There is a supposed delay on account of AA missiles but it also makes no sense. It takes 3 years to reach a phase in construction where AA missiles are being installed. It takes much less than that to resolve problem with those missiles. So why aren't they ordering more frigates?

    They have 4 under construction for North Fleet. They should order at least 4 more for Pacific. It would be enough to plug a gap. Instead nothing. Not a single one for years and by the looks of it nothing for years to come. Not even announcement.



    As for zero deficit policy reasons​ are simple:  they can't go into deficit yet because the moment they do all their "friends" like China and India will run away screaming. Russia may not care but for others deficit is red alert (wether right or wrong is besides the point)

    Once Nord Stream 2 and Turk Stream are up and running and Ukraine is unplugged from gas transit after 2019 it will be different story. But they aren't there yet.
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1361
    Points : 1362
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Dude, i am not saying they should stop building Gorshkovs, it's just that the SG could also be built, it should take less time and money to build than it would take to build the Lider, while also being able to fulfill the role of both Destroyer and Cruiser, a good investment IMO.

    Yea, those are Corvettes.

    Nothing wrong with building Super Gorshkov but they are not building anything at all. Not a single ship above corvette.

    There is a supposed delay on account of AA missiles but it also makes no sense. It takes 3 years to reach a phase in construction where AA missiles are being installed. It takes much less than that to resolve problem with those missiles. So why aren't they ordering more frigates?

    They have 4 under construction for North Fleet. They should order at least 4 more for Pacific. It would be enough to plug a gap. Instead nothing. Not a single one for years and by the looks of it nothing for years to come. Not even announcement.

    How odd, as soon as the Turbine issue was resolved they should have placed new orders, could it be because there considering the Super-Gorshkov to replace it or is it the defense-budget being cut in 2018??
    But that's stupid, either way they need more frigates, and i haven't heard of new Grigorovich orders either.

    Hmm.... i am leaning towards Mikes theory, the MoD is most likely simply waiting for the Gorshkov to work first before ordering more.
    Not sure about Grigorovich, then again they only restarted construction back in June this year.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 1305
    Points : 1305
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:50 pm

    It was obvious when recently Putin signed the decree regarding the strategy of the Navy till 2030. That was this year they signed it. I guarantee you they are now working out a plan for a system that is standardized to start building. They may be determining if it is Super Gorshkov or not as an example. Right now, they got what they want in a design and development in corvettes, but not on frigates and higher. They may see where they want to go when Gorshkov is fully ready. The media hypes about the "cut in spending" but what most fail to realize that the supposed amount to be spent was pre determined years ago. In this case, Austin posted it in the defense budget thread. And he was correct in the amount (almost) as he pointed out it will be 2.8% of GDP but from what Johnin posted in the economics thread, it is 2.9%. So it will be roughly 2.7T rubles. Which let me remind you is over $40B USD in current exchange rate, and pre 2014, was $80B USD (brings into perspective, as ruble cost wouldn't have changed). So they are still spending a lot more than you think. A single Gorshkov takes years to build, and not the entire cost is thrown up front. Its and it doesn't cost $1B to build one. If it was money issues, frigates that are cheaper would still be build (Grigorovich) but in this case, they are only building those for India. So there is a whole other thing happening. Maybe, just maybe they are going with a new design. Something between Gorshkov and Grigorovich? Maybe something they can build at multiple shipyards and shares many components with Grigorovich and the various Corvettes? Who knows what is going on. But we get hints based upon recent events, and the signing of the decree till 2030 for the navy is the biggest one - they were unsure till recently what they wanted/needed.

    T-47

    Posts : 181
    Points : 185
    Join date : 2017-07-17
    Location : Planet Earth

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  T-47 on Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:41 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:they are only building those for India

    AFAIK that plan was cancelled. MoD wants those ships stay in RuN. No Indian Grigorovich so far.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Update

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:32 pm