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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update

    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:35 am

    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Buzakov also noted that the test of the air-independent power plant will not be conducted on the submarines "Kronstadt" and "Velikie Luki", as well as on the next two ships. "They will definitely be without VNEU, maybe it will be tested at some of the subsequent ships of this project," he added.


    I don't get it. I thought that air-independent propulsion was main selling point of these Lada subs.

    If they are not getting AIP then what is their advantage over Kilo class? Genuinely asking.

    Wouldn't it make more sense to build more Kilos then?

    And speaking of Kilos, how good really are they when compared to AIP subs? I know they call them Black Holes but how deserved is that name?

    I personally dont think they should start with Ladas untill AIP is ready, beats the point. Rather build 2 more Kilos till Ladas together with AIP are available.

    Well IF they are that much superior AND IF they can be built at similar speed THEN it would make sense

    Otherwise you are right, they should stick with Kilos for a while more
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    Post  Guest on Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:42 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Buzakov also noted that the test of the air-independent power plant will not be conducted on the submarines "Kronstadt" and "Velikie Luki", as well as on the next two ships. "They will definitely be without VNEU, maybe it will be tested at some of the subsequent ships of this project," he added.


    I don't get it. I thought that air-independent propulsion was main selling point of these Lada subs.

    If they are not getting AIP then what is their advantage over Kilo class? Genuinely asking.

    Wouldn't it make more sense to build more Kilos then?

    And speaking of Kilos, how good really are they when compared to AIP subs? I know they call them Black Holes but how deserved is that name?

    I personally dont think they should start with Ladas untill AIP is ready, beats the point. Rather build 2 more Kilos till Ladas together with AIP are available.

    Well IF they are that much superior AND IF they can be built at similar speed THEN it would make sense

    Otherwise you are right, they should stick with Kilos for a while more

    Majority of that equipment can be retrofitted to Kilos, so still, rather build Kilo revision till Lada comes in full configuration.

    Just my personal opinion tho, ofc.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:06 am

    There is only so much you can upgrade an old design before the returns are diminished to the point where it is not worth the money.

    The sensors and propulsion and weapons of the Lada were state of the art next gen type stuff... they were always going to be ambitious and to take time to get right.

    The point is not just to get any old subs into service... I am sure even a Foxtrot could be built in record time too... building Kilos now means being stuck with them for 30 years... they wont age as well as the Ladas will... personally I would prefer to see them spend money on Ladas now and leave Kilos for export.

    The higher automation on board the Ladas will reduce crewing pressure and maximise the number of vessels at sea at any one time... which maximises its performance advantage.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:21 pm

    The 12 ships of the Lider class, a proposed 17,000-ton destroyer, could easily replace the existing cruisers and destroyers of the fleet, but there is little indication that the Kremlin plans to lay these ships down, much less complete them in a reasonable timeframe. Russia’s recent economic crisis has made naval construction an ever harder sell. Moreover, the seizure of Crimea cut off the possibility of foreign acquisition, primarily the Mistral-class amphibious assault ships, although at some point Russia could perhaps consider buying ships from China. ..
    Russia’s navy is in bad shape, and Russia is in no shape to rebuild it. In the foreseeable future, Russia should commit to naval projects that it absolutely requires, and that it does well. This mostly means a nuclear submarine flotilla capable of posing a deterrent threat, and a small surface fleet tasked with managing routine maritime maintenance operations.
    https://warisboring.com/the-russian-navy-is-in-a-death-spiral/
    Well, "small surface fleet" can also project power ashore with LACMs, as already demonstrated. Yes, importing ships from the PRC is possible- the USSR had some of its ships & helos built in Poland & the Russian Empire got a few of her big ships built abroad as well.
    Also, could those icebreakers Russia has now that are idle in winter be modified for naval roles & sent South to fill gaps, if need be? In a crisis, I think so!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:23 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    The 12 ships of the Lider class, a proposed 17,000-ton destroyer, could easily replace the existing cruisers and destroyers of the fleet, but there is little indication that the Kremlin plans to lay these ships down, much less complete them in a reasonable timeframe. Russia’s recent economic crisis has made naval construction an ever harder sell. Moreover, the seizure of Crimea cut off the possibility of foreign acquisition, primarily the Mistral-class amphibious assault ships, although at some point Russia could perhaps consider buying ships from China. ..
    Russia’s navy is in bad shape, and Russia is in no shape to rebuild it. In the foreseeable future, Russia should commit to naval projects that it absolutely requires, and that it does well. This mostly means a nuclear submarine flotilla capable of posing a deterrent threat, and a small surface fleet tasked with managing routine maritime maintenance operations.
    https://warisboring.com/the-russian-navy-is-in-a-death-spiral/
    Well, "small surface fleet" can also project power ashore with LACMs, as already demonstrated. Yes, importing ships from the PRC is possible- the USSR had some of its ships & helos built in Poland & the Russian Empire got a few of her big ships built abroad as well.
    Also, could those icebreakers Russia has now that are idle in winter be modified for naval roles & sent South to fill gaps, if need be?
    In a crisis, I think so!

    Soviets had ships built in member states for economic reasons they had to spread the economics around to better support the union. If they just focused it all on Russia the USSR would have collapsed much sooner than it did.

    I don't think Russia will purchase any ships from china there was talk about them buying some frigates to go with the Mistrals because they could not build the ships fast enough, so that made sense really.

    This article tho doesn't take into account the Russians are starting from bottom to top etc they will not lay down any Liders for a long long time they don't even have a decent amount of frigates built yet.

    the problem for Russia's navy right now is not that there is no money it's their ship builders take FOREVER to finish ships that should not take half as long as they do.

    This is a problem with the industry, not the fact they cannot afford it, Some shipyards can get ships out in a reasonable amount of time but those are few and far between in Russia right now.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:37 pm

    Is it because it's a different time now & there's no Stalin & Beria anymore to shoot/send them to GULAG for slow completion of orders? What would make them better? New equipment? More qualified management, personnel & yards?
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:02 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Is it because it's a different time now & there's no Stalin & Beria anymore to shoot/send them to GULAG for slow completion of orders? What would make them better? New equipment? More qualified management, personnel & yards?  

    Oh solution is simple: give contracts to shipyards who get results. Right now they give out contracts based on tradition. Shipyards in Kaliningrad and one in St. Pete should have been liquidated by now given their performance.

    Look at Pella: first Naval vessel ever and it's out on time. Take away contracts from shitty shipyards and give it to them.

    Find others like them and repeat the process. And build ship classes in more than one shipyard.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:46 pm

    What about capital ships that can be built only in big drydocks like in Nikolaev, now in Ukraine? To build them & req. infrastructure also takes many years. If they didn't have to build all those new icebreakers, do u think the new warships could be there sooner?
    OTH, RF has her nuclear triad & can do w/o big surface fleet, especially now as the Chinese Navy will keep JMSDF & USN busy in W. Pac. & possibly elsewhere!
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    Post  Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:19 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:What about capital ships that can be built only in big drydocks like in Nikolaev, now in Ukraine? To build them & req. infrastructure also takes many years. If they didn't have to build all those new icebreakers, do u think the new warships could be there sooner?
    OTH, RF has her nuclear triad & can do w/o big surface fleet, especially now as the Chinese Navy will keep JMSDF & USN busy in W. Pac. & possibly elsewhere!

    Even if they somehow suddenly got access to all the required infrastructure to build capital ships they would need time to develop many technologies from scratch. So capital ships would still be on fairly long stick. But seems that in few shipyards infrastructure is being slowly renewed and new shipyard is being built so that will be covered though next decade hopefully.

    Well... i wouldnt look at China as much of an ally tbh Smile
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:58 am

    .
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:.
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.

    I disagree, the Super-Gorshkov would also be a good investment.
    Unless you mean the SG when you mentioned "missile ships".
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:49 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:.
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.

    I disagree, the Super-Gorshkov would also be a good investment.
    Unless you mean the SG when you mentioned "missile ships".

    No, Super Gorshkov would only be good investment if they were building Gorshkovs en masse. But they are not. They aren't even building any, they are just finishing old order placed in bygone era.

    It's been years since they even placed order for a frigate, let alone laid one down. Something is seriously wrong here. Ukrainian engine excuse no longer flies since it's been resolved.

    They have Gorshkov project up and running. They should be building more of them instead of chasing yet another pie in the sky like Super Gorshkov. How many decades until they get first Super Gorshkov built let alone delivered? Their entire fleet will rust away by then.

    And when I say missile ship I mean stuff like Buyans and Karakurts.
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    Post  Guest on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:01 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:.
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.

    I disagree, the Super-Gorshkov would also be a good investment.
    Unless you mean the SG when you mentioned "missile ships".

    Super Gorshkovs wouldnt be capital ships tho.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:18 pm

    Dude, i am not saying they should stop building Gorshkovs, it's just that the SG could also be built, it should take less time and money to build than it would take to build the Lider, while also being able to fulfill the role of both Destroyer and Cruiser, a good investment IMO.

    Yea, those are Corvettes.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:30 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:.
    Capital ships are completely redundant at this point in time. Later yes but not now.

    Now they need three things: missile ships, corvettes and frigates. That's it.

    Three shipyards per one class. Problem solved.

    Anything bigger right now is a waste of time, money, man-hours, and production capacities.

    I disagree, the Super-Gorshkov would also be a good investment.
    Unless you mean the SG when you mentioned "missile ships".

    No, Super Gorshkov would only be good investment if they were building Gorshkovs en masse. But they are not. They aren't even building any, they are just finishing old order placed in bygone era.

    It's been years since they even placed order for a frigate, let alone laid one down. Something is seriously wrong here. Ukrainian engine excuse no longer flies since it's been resolved.

    The monetarist lunatics are running the asylum in Russia. Every penny needs to be pinched. Because other interested parties
    have first dibs on these pennies. As usual, Russia and Russians are at the bottom of the list for consideration.

    People on this board for the most part can't read or understand Russian. So they do not see the insanity of the zero deficit
    mafia in Russia. The notion of running a deficit at all is turned into some sort of end of the world scenario for Russia. They
    are actually depleting reserve funds to achieve zero deficits. Reserve funds are not for balancing budgets, they are for
    crisis situations.

    At the end of the day, Russian military procurement is facing a variant of the absence of funds back in the early 2000s. It
    is not as bad, but as you note, it is not all that mild either.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:48 pm

    That has nothing to do with it. It has more to do with not knowing what they want and what is resolved or not. Gorshkovs took forever thanks to the air defense system. Now the shipyards say this or that about a new class of ship.  The money is already available, and out of $40B in 1 year, it isn't a problem financially. It entirely based upon USC and their bullshit.  Now MoD doesn't know what they want. Only certain thing they want is the corvettes.

    This has been evident for a very, very long time.

    Some of you need to stop this hysterical bullshit of money this and that when it has nothing to do with it.  First off, throwing money around at an issue will cause same effect in US MiC. Expensive sub par shit.  As per Shoygu in recent past, only 40% of finances available from SAP2020 has been spent, and that is something since we are coming up to 2018.  I think that is because before ordering, they are really wanting to complete systems or end up with same bullshit.  This is obvious, you don't go and purchase a bunch of duds and then spend shit tons to fix it. They did this already with Su-35. F-35 is perfect example of this. My evidence of this is that the ships were laid down even in a small budget era compared to now or even in near future. Yet during the two biggest spending periods of 2015 and 16, not a hull laid down. So it really isn't money. It is definitely something else.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:22 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Dude, i am not saying they should stop building Gorshkovs, it's just that the SG could also be built, it should take less time and money to build than it would take to build the Lider, while also being able to fulfill the role of both Destroyer and Cruiser, a good investment IMO.

    Yea, those are Corvettes.

    Nothing wrong with building Super Gorshkov but they are not building anything at all. Not a single ship above corvette.

    There is a supposed delay on account of AA missiles but it also makes no sense. It takes 3 years to reach a phase in construction where AA missiles are being installed. It takes much less than that to resolve problem with those missiles. So why aren't they ordering more frigates?

    They have 4 under construction for North Fleet. They should order at least 4 more for Pacific. It would be enough to plug a gap. Instead nothing. Not a single one for years and by the looks of it nothing for years to come. Not even announcement.



    As for zero deficit policy reasons​ are simple:  they can't go into deficit yet because the moment they do all their "friends" like China and India will run away screaming. Russia may not care but for others deficit is red alert (wether right or wrong is besides the point)

    Once Nord Stream 2 and Turk Stream are up and running and Ukraine is unplugged from gas transit after 2019 it will be different story. But they aren't there yet.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Dude, i am not saying they should stop building Gorshkovs, it's just that the SG could also be built, it should take less time and money to build than it would take to build the Lider, while also being able to fulfill the role of both Destroyer and Cruiser, a good investment IMO.

    Yea, those are Corvettes.

    Nothing wrong with building Super Gorshkov but they are not building anything at all. Not a single ship above corvette.

    There is a supposed delay on account of AA missiles but it also makes no sense. It takes 3 years to reach a phase in construction where AA missiles are being installed. It takes much less than that to resolve problem with those missiles. So why aren't they ordering more frigates?

    They have 4 under construction for North Fleet. They should order at least 4 more for Pacific. It would be enough to plug a gap. Instead nothing. Not a single one for years and by the looks of it nothing for years to come. Not even announcement.

    How odd, as soon as the Turbine issue was resolved they should have placed new orders, could it be because there considering the Super-Gorshkov to replace it or is it the defense-budget being cut in 2018??
    But that's stupid, either way they need more frigates, and i haven't heard of new Grigorovich orders either.

    Hmm.... i am leaning towards Mikes theory, the MoD is most likely simply waiting for the Gorshkov to work first before ordering more.
    Not sure about Grigorovich, then again they only restarted construction back in June this year.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:50 pm

    It was obvious when recently Putin signed the decree regarding the strategy of the Navy till 2030. That was this year they signed it. I guarantee you they are now working out a plan for a system that is standardized to start building. They may be determining if it is Super Gorshkov or not as an example. Right now, they got what they want in a design and development in corvettes, but not on frigates and higher. They may see where they want to go when Gorshkov is fully ready. The media hypes about the "cut in spending" but what most fail to realize that the supposed amount to be spent was pre determined years ago. In this case, Austin posted it in the defense budget thread. And he was correct in the amount (almost) as he pointed out it will be 2.8% of GDP but from what Johnin posted in the economics thread, it is 2.9%. So it will be roughly 2.7T rubles. Which let me remind you is over $40B USD in current exchange rate, and pre 2014, was $80B USD (brings into perspective, as ruble cost wouldn't have changed). So they are still spending a lot more than you think. A single Gorshkov takes years to build, and not the entire cost is thrown up front. Its and it doesn't cost $1B to build one. If it was money issues, frigates that are cheaper would still be build (Grigorovich) but in this case, they are only building those for India. So there is a whole other thing happening. Maybe, just maybe they are going with a new design. Something between Gorshkov and Grigorovich? Maybe something they can build at multiple shipyards and shares many components with Grigorovich and the various Corvettes? Who knows what is going on. But we get hints based upon recent events, and the signing of the decree till 2030 for the navy is the biggest one - they were unsure till recently what they wanted/needed.
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    Post  T-47 on Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:41 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:they are only building those for India

    AFAIK that plan was cancelled. MoD wants those ships stay in RuN. No Indian Grigorovich so far.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:05 am

    I hope this is  ot journo fantasy an if its true then wow. Below its not Leader bu river-sea corvette Smile))


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    The Navy will receive a "people's" corvette

    A unique ship will not only be multifunctional, but also quite cheap



    The ships of a small displacement created for the Russian Navy will operate both in the far ocean zone, and close to the coast and even on rivers. On board the novelty is hidden a whole arsenal of missile, torpedo and antisubmarine weapons, more suitable for the cruiser. The newest corvettes will be able to inflict massive missile strikes on coastal targets, combat aircraft carriers, hunt for submarines, and provide fire support to the naval landing force. But the main advantage of the ship, the project of which was developed by the Krylov Scientific Research Center, is its low cost.

    The corvette will cost the military seamen a little more than a small rocket ship (MRK) of the "Buyan" type. Therefore, the project has already received an informal name "people's" and "budget." According to its characteristics, the novelty seriously exceeds the MRK. According to experts, a new corvette is needed for the Russian Navy. It is a good option to get for a relatively small amount of money a fleet of shock ships with great potential and unique characteristics.

    As "Izvestia" was told in the General Staff of the Navy, the draft of the new corvette has already been preliminarily studied and received positive reviews.

    "A new corvette is an attempt to create a small displacement ship, but with very powerful and multifunctional armament," Valentin Belonenko, representative of the Krylov Scientific Center, told Izvestia. - At the same time, he can operate in the far sea, coastal zones or even in the estuaries of large rivers. At high "sea" sides the ship has a very small draft. In its motion lead water jet engines, which increases maneuverability in small water areas.

    In appearance, the ship is similar to the atomic destroyer "Leader" project 23560. This ship should replace the heavy nuclear cruisers such as "Peter the Great". The chopped lines of the hull, the pyramidal hanging superstructure, the complete absence of antennas and the armament put into the below-deck space. All of these are elements of Stealth stealth technology. However, unlike the older brother, the corvette has an order of magnitude smaller displacement.

    At the same time on its board are 24 universal launchers 3S-14 for the launch of long-range cruise missiles Caliber and anti-ship Onyx. This is more than on ships with a similar displacement of the type "Buyan-M" or "Karakurt." And little less than the "Leader".

    The corvette also has a powerful air defense system. These are 16 long-range guided missiles and 32 are small ones. In addition, the newest universal 100 mm automatic artillery A-190 stands on board. Two 30 mm six-barrel rapid-fire cannons AK-630 and one twelve-barrel cannon "Duet". To combat enemy submarines installed torpedo tubes "Packet-NK" caliber 324 mm. Detection of submarines is carried out by means of a hydroacoustic complex with antennas in the nose bulb, under the keel and extended, towed behind the stern of the ship, and also with the help of the Ka-27 helicopter. For its basing in the stern superstructure there is a hangar.


    "Compared to the Buyans and the Karakurts, the new corvette has serious advantages," the military historian Dmitry Boltenkov told Izvestia. - He has a powerful air defense system, a large number of strike complexes. The ship is more universal. It is such a ship that is now required by the Russian Navy. In case of their construction on each fleet it is possible to create a strong numerous shock group from new corvettes.

    At present, five small missile ships of the project Buyan-M are part of the Russian Navy. Another seven are in varying degrees of readiness. Also, the Main Command of the Navy ordered a series of 18 more advanced "Karakurts".

    How they want it to navigate on rivers would e interesting. But if true then a great day for RN.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:40 am

    Already discussed this previously in http://www.russiadefence.net/t4811p275-russian-naval-shipbuilding-industry-news, starting at post 286 by Austin.

    This new pic does at least confirm the short-range AA is in two VLS on heli deck level.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:45 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Already discussed this previously in http://www.russiadefence.net/t4811p275-russian-naval-shipbuilding-industry-news, starting at post 286 by Austin.

    This new pic does at least confirm the short-range AA is in two VLS on heli deck level.

    check vid in in this link for details pls. Snd thanks for info!
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    Post  eehnie on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:03 pm

    The status of the ships of the Project UK-3 is the most difficult to follow in this group.

    If someone knows something, it would be interesting to read.
    George1
    George1

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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 6 Empty Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:15 pm

    eehnie wrote:The status of the ships of the Project UK-3 is the most difficult to follow in this group.

    If someone knows something, it would be interesting to read.

    these are training boats. All these ships are auxilliary vessels that already are being replaced by new Russian projects

    a page with some info is this:
    http://russianships.info/eng/support/project_uk3.htm

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    Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update - Page 6 Empty Re: Russian Naval Construction Plans and Statistics Update

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