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    Isreali lobby in USA

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    ahmedfire

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:20 am

    Indeed... if a country gets US weapons yet can control its own policies then in many ways it is the US that is the Vassal. Israel is the best example of this... where the spoiled child controls the family...
    I've read many articles and see many videos about how israel contrlos US but i can't explain why US citizens and politicians accept that Exclamation 

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    GarryB

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:49 am

    I've read many articles and see many videos about how israel contrlos US but i can't explain why US citizens and politicians accept that
    Controls is a strong word... but the fact is that the Israelis can attack a US ship in international waters... kill men on board... only break off the attack when a nearby US carrier responds to their SOS.. and then claim they mistook it for an Egyptian ship... and yet the US does not condemn the actions of Israel.

    It seems in the eyes of the US that Israel can do no wrong... dangerous!

    I've read in some article about the simplifications of the Mi-28NE compared to Mi-28N domestic version, such as TOES-521 (without stabilisation) vs GOES-521 (gyrostabilized), Mi-28NE was also directly derived from the Mi-28A not from Mi-28N, simplifications in board avionic and so on. Someone know more about that?
    I would expect missile range would be missile export range (ie 6km for Ataka instead of more like 8km), Radar performance will be greatly downgraded, electronics will be simple and rather less up to date.


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    flamming_python

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    I've read many articles and see many videos about how israel contrlos US but i can't explain why US citizens and politicians accept that
    Controls is a strong word... but the fact is that the Israelis can attack a US ship in international waters... kill men on board... only break off the attack when a nearby US carrier responds to their SOS.. and then claim they mistook it for an Egyptian ship... and yet the US does not condemn the actions of Israel.

    It seems in the eyes of the US that Israel can do no wrong... dangerous!
    The US gave Israel a good dressing down when the Israelis sold military tech to China.

    I think it's quite clear that the US wears the trousers in the relationship when it comes to existential threats. You won't catch Israel doing anything with Russia or China; if the US decides to object.

    You also won't catch Israel attacking US allies such as Saudi Arabia. For all the bluster and talk; they are effectively in the same military alliance. Israel only attacks countries that the US either doesn't care about or are enemies of the US already; such as Lebanon or Syria.
    The Israelis bomb Hezbollah, Hamas, etc... yet I've never seen them regard Saudi or Turkish funded/supported jihadists as a threat.

    Israel is an instrument of US control in the Middle East; along with the Gulf Arab states. Erdogan's Turkey is an ally too but the Turks are rather more independent, and could always vote in a government that would act against US interests.
    America grants Israel a lot of leeway because it's interests are seen as the extension of America's own interests; it's bringing Western influence and territorial control to the Middle East.
    If one views Israel as the 51st state, or as a US dependency/colony - then the nature of their relations will make a lot more sense.

    Of course the US is going to forgive Israel for bombing its ship. What is it going to do - punish it's own military/territory?
    Of course the US is going to support Israel against any possible or perceived threat, or support its colonisation efforts, no matter what world opinion might be; just the same as any country will defend its own territory.
    And naturally the only limits really come into play if this territory wants to become too independent and get too close for comfort to powerful US rivals such as Russia or China. America will reign it in just the same as it would with any of its federal states.

    calripson

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    Not Great Mystery

    Post  calripson on Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:41 pm

    It is not a question of "control" it is a question of influence, and it is not a question of state vs. state influence, it is a question of the political influence within the US of pro-Israeli factions. It is an empirical fact that roughly 50% of all political donations to the Democratic party and roughly 25% of all political contributions originate from Jewish Americans. Nothing wrong with that - it is their money to do with what they want and presumably most have some interest in Israel's welfare. Additionally, it is no great secret that many powerful and influential people in media, Hollywood, finance, happen to be Jewish. The New York Times and Washington Post as an example have both had Jewish ownership for decades. Does that influence their "spin" on stories involving Israel ? Who knows, but it surely doesn't negatively impact their coverage. Pro -Israeli factions in the U.S. are not limited to Jews of course - one of the largest promoters of Israel are evangelical Christians. The net political effect is clear and has been demonstrated multiple times in recent history: It is not a recipe for political success or political viability in the U.S. to be seen as antithetical to Israeli interests.

    As Sa'iqa

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:16 pm

    If some country wants to be a real superpower, it MUST have its own sphere of influence - it's not antiquity or Middle Ages anymore, the world is globalized so if one country doesn't expand its influence, others surely will.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:24 pm

    calripson wrote:It is not a question of "control" it is a question of influence, and it is not a question of state vs. state influence, it is a question of the political influence within the US of pro-Israeli factions. It is an empirical fact that roughly 50% of all political donations to the Democratic party and roughly 25% of all political contributions originate from Jewish Americans. Nothing wrong with that - it is their money to do with what they want and presumably most have some interest in Israel's welfare. Additionally, it is no great secret that many powerful and influential people in media, Hollywood, finance,  happen to be Jewish. The New York Times and Washington Post as an example have both had Jewish ownership for decades. Does that influence their "spin" on stories involving Israel ? Who knows, but it surely doesn't negatively impact their coverage. Pro -Israeli factions in the U.S. are not limited to Jews of course - one of the largest promoters of Israel are evangelical Christians. The net political effect is clear and has been demonstrated  multiple times in recent history: It is not a recipe for political success or political viability in the U.S. to be seen as antithetical to Israeli interests.
    Actually i see a very big problem with that people finance politicians that is nothing else but corruption.
    The musician plays the music of the one who pays and not his own.
    Noone will ever spend money for politics without hoping for certain results, that is why in last 40 years more and more Laws were passed that are harmfull to the average citizen but bring billions over billions to companies. I just don't understand who are the pussies who are not doing anything against this high corruption, if i had a country i would prohibit it with imprisonment and no corrupt judicial like USA has were people can be "to big to fail" and just pay some bail out to get free.

    This is a big flaw for everyone where not the own countries policy is pursued but the one of an oligarch and their political goals.

    And yes jews are controlling USA, not just influencing. The FED is a jews mafia organisation and they are the one who rule over USA, they print their money, they rule their money meaning they rule the country!


    "give me the power of the money and it will not matter anymore who is commanding"
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    macedonian

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  macedonian on Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:03 pm

    flamming_python wrote:The US gave Israel a good dressing down when the Israelis sold military tech to China.

    I think it's quite clear that the US wears the trousers in the relationship when it comes to existential threats. You won't catch Israel doing anything with Russia or China; if the US decides to object.

    You also won't catch Israel attacking US allies such as Saudi Arabia. For all the bluster and talk; they are effectively in the same military alliance. Israel only attacks countries that the US either doesn't care about or are enemies of the US already; such as Lebanon or Syria.
    The Israelis bomb Hezbollah, Hamas, etc... yet I've never seen them regard Saudi or Turkish funded/supported jihadists as a threat.

    Israel is an instrument of US control in the Middle East; along with the Gulf Arab states. Erdogan's Turkey is an ally too but the Turks are rather more independent, and could always vote in a government that would act against US interests.
    America grants Israel a lot of leeway because it's interests are seen as the extension of America's own interests; it's bringing Western influence and territorial control to the Middle East.
    If one views Israel as the 51st state, or as a US dependency/colony - then the nature of their relations will make a lot more sense.

    Of course the US is going to forgive Israel for bombing its ship. What is it going to do - punish it's own military/territory?
    Of course the US is going to support Israel against any possible or perceived threat, or support its colonisation efforts, no matter what world opinion might be; just the same as any country will defend its own territory.
    And naturally the only limits really come into play if this territory wants to become too independent and get too close for comfort to powerful US rivals such as Russia or China. America will reign it in just the same as it would with any of its federal states.
    Interesting point of view FP.
    Very 'mainstream' if I may say so.

    One flaw with that opinion is that I just don't see the state of Texas, New Mexico, or Oregon actually attacking a US military ship to advance its own state interests against the federal government. This vis-a-vis the 51th state talk...

    I'm not too sure about who actually wears the pants in the said relationship either.

    You have financial aid going one way only, the recent Snowden leaks have shown that Israel gets access to raw NSA material (even on US citizens), while it sends back processed stuff...

    In all the wars that Israel has fought, it could always count on America's help in any way it saw fit, while it never fought alongside the Americans in neither of their wars...

    US' standing in the world (and especially among its allies) suffers a great deal because of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians done with American support, yet it keeps on blocking UNSC resolutions...

    Now, just who controls whom?
    Well the jury is still out on that one...
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:39 pm

    macedonian wrote:Interesting point of view FP.
    Very 'mainstream' if I may say so.
    I guess I'm just a skeptic.

    It's not the first time a certain Middle-Eastern origin diaspora community (that of course just happened to be the most alien in cultural and religious terms in Europe at the time) has been implicated in schemes of evil, ultimate control, been 'exposed' as pulling all the strings or controlling the economy, etc...

    And every time that's happened; it turns out that actually - other people like the Tsars, or Hitler, turned out to be far more powerful than this community after all. These guys managed to usurp all the power away from the Jews in time, and how easily! Man what a relief.

    So when someone comes along and says "they're at it again"; I just have to wonder if it's not simply serving as a distraction from the corrupt clique of people (of various origins and ethnicities, but mostly white Christians) that actually do run America - it's political and industrial elite.
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    TR1

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  TR1 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:51 pm

    It's pretty discoruaging when in the American political debates no one dares say anything to criticize Israel...its not our bloody 51st state.

    But the whole Israeli lobby is often really overstated.
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    macedonian

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  macedonian on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:59 pm

    TR1 wrote:It's pretty discoruaging when in the American political debates no one dares say anything to criticize Israel...its not our bloody 51st state.
    But the whole Israeli lobby is often really overstated.
    Care to explain?!
    This guy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRnJMScd0Tg

    doesn't seem to agree with you.
    And we're not talking some nutter here, he's an ex CIA operative, and currently a professor at Georgetown...
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    TR1

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    Re: Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  TR1 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:36 pm


    I agree with him regarding post-Cold War support for Israel, and some of his assertions regarding terrorism are pretty damn spot on.

    You get a whole segment of people clamming Israel borderline runs the US government...and that...is...well....

    Plus, I somehow doubt you guys share Scheuerer's views on Chechnya....
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    macedonian

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    Isreali lobby in USA

    Post  macedonian on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:35 am

    TR1 wrote:
    I agree with him regarding post-Cold War support for Israel, and some of his assertions regarding terrorism are pretty damn spot on.
    I agree with him too.

    TR1 wrote:You get a whole segment of people clamming Israel borderline runs the US government...and that...is...well....
    That is...what?!
    Doubtful?
    Why?
    Because politicians are known to be guided by high morals, ethics and sheer patriotism, right?
    No way they could be bought...Rolling Eyes 
    The Youtube link does offer some insights as to how eloquent (and rarely bought) politicos truly are...Laughing 

    TR1 wrote:Plus, I somehow doubt you guys share Scheuerer's views on Chechnya....
    Well, this might come as a shock, but I tend to believe all things supported by logic and evidence.
    No matter how hard the truth is to swallow, I never try to bend it to suit my agenda.
    I differ from the said politicians in that way.

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