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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:34 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:If I am correct the Russians use L-39C which wasn't really used for dedicated ground attack I think only the ZA and ZO and few more modern models had a decent capability and most are way past their life. The sole 2 reasons to field a few yak -130 is to combat test it and to show case it to potential buyers Russia won't be selling its L-39 it uses ones in not so good shape for target testing and unmanned aircraft tests. L-39 in Syrian airforce is being used out of necessity not because it's ideal it's used in strafing runs using gun pods and rocket pods it has no armour and a lot slower than other aircraft in service in Syria. At least yak -130 can attack targets out of enemy reach

    Syria is not new doing the modification.

    In the other side, until now it has not been produced a single unit of the Yak-130 for FGA role.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:51 am

    Sending 4-6 yak -130 is hardly going to cause much of a delay and the outcome of sending these aircraft to Syria for combat testing and show casing will yield long term benefits in export sales. And it makes more sense to upgrade yak -130 to attack version for Syria as they will have to produce armed versions at some point if there serious in exporting as light attack and it wouldn't take much to do it either makes sense to spent money on that than spend it upgrading aircraft which are on the verge of being retired (L-39) and just to produce an aircraft that's only capable of strafing runs while a yak -130 would be able to carry more munitions as well a much more different variety of munitions and thus be more effective and more useful
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    calm

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  calm on Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:12 pm

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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:42 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Sending 4-6 yak -130 is hardly going to cause much of a delay and the outcome of sending these aircraft to Syria for combat testing and show casing will yield long term benefits in export sales. And it makes more sense to upgrade yak -130 to attack version for Syria as they will have to produce armed versions at some point if there serious in exporting as light attack and it wouldn't take much to do it either makes sense to spent money on that than spend it upgrading aircraft which are on the verge of being retired (L-39) and just to produce an aircraft that's only capable of strafing runs while a yak -130 would be able to carry more munitions as well a much more different variety of munitions and thus be more effective and more useful

    The delay is assured. If I'm not wrong 4-6 Yak-130 means around 5-7 months of delay at the current rythm of production. To increase the rythm of production has also a cost. I do not think it will happen.

    In the case of the L-39, sending them to Syria means to avoid scrapping costs, and means not a significant decreasing of Russian military capabilities.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:34 pm

    But upgrading L-39 and then shipping then to Syria far out weight the use of aircraft that like I said only useful for strafing runs. I am sure Russia would sacrifice 5-7 months delay for potential sales or 10's maybe even into 100's of sales of yak - 130 to countries across the world. And like said before yak - 130 is better suited for Syria than L-39. You know this all makes perfect sense. But I understand that you have a passion for wanting to use really old outdated stuff going by your posts in the past. But I think Russia would rather invest in a newer aircraft like yak -130 than old nearly on scrap heap L-39. And I am sure pilots would feel much more comfortable and safer flying a yak - 130 than old and tired L-39 that has to get up close for an attack when yak - 130 can stay out of range and as for scrapping costs the Russian MOD would sell them to a scrappage company and actually make money not lose money and nothing sensitive to remove plus like I said in earlier post Russia uses them for flying targets and unmanned aircraft tests
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:16 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:But upgrading L-39 and then shipping then to Syria far out weight the use of aircraft that like I said only useful for strafing runs. I am sure Russia would sacrifice 5-7 months delay for potential sales or 10's maybe even into 100's of sales of yak - 130 to countries across the world. And like said before yak - 130 is better suited for Syria than L-39. You know this all makes perfect sense. But I understand that you have a passion for wanting to use really old outdated stuff going by your posts in the past. But I think Russia would rather invest in a newer aircraft like yak -130 than old nearly on scrap heap L-39. And I am sure pilots would feel much more comfortable and safer flying a yak - 130 than old and tired L-39 that has to get up close for an attack when yak - 130 can stay out of range and as for scrapping costs the Russian MOD would sell them to a scrappage company and actually make money not lose money and nothing sensitive to remove plus like I said in earlier post Russia uses them for flying targets and unmanned aircraft tests  

    Syria has experience in the modification of the L-39. They do the necessary (for them) at low cost. They are not official modifications (like the case of the M-46 on trucks). Is not something that Russia has to do or to pay for.

    In the case of the Yak-130 it would require to follow all the procedure of investigation, development and testing of the Russian Armed Forces. And doing it, they would present the FGA variant of the Yak-130 other way, not sending them to the Syrian Armed Forces (less still if they want some commercial profit).
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:05 am

    Actually you are not using your imagination... think WWII bomber...

    Take a cheap simple post WWII bomber design like the straight winged Il-28 bomber.

    Fit that Gefest & T bomb aiming system and you have a very cheap light bomber that operates above enemy air defences.

    Obviously upgrade it with modern engines but there is no need to make it supersonic or anything... just increase its range a bit and use cheap dumb bombs to take out enemy positions.


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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:17 pm

    There is no way Syria has the money to pay for delivery of L-39 and then upgrade them. Yak-130 could be piloted by Russian pilots most of the work has already been done to make them effective combat aircraft
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    calm

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  calm on Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:07 pm

    Su25, Syria.

    Note S24 and S25 rockets.

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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:38 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:There is no way Syria has the money to pay for delivery of L-39 and then upgrade them. Yak-130 could be piloted by Russian pilots most of the work has already been done to make them effective combat aircraft  

    I do not expect Syria pays for the L-39 and the ammunition, but yes for the modification. Just like with the M-46.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:06 am

    So who will pay for delivery? And Syria doesn't have money for such modifications. I think in realistic terms it would be more likely that Yak -130 be senice than L-39 which are on the verge of being scrapped. Russia would gain absolutely nothing from sending them = fact. While yak-130 would gain sales and improvements if you go by current trend if Russia using military equipment in Syria they have gained orders and equipment has gain improvements and problems have been identified = fact
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    calm

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  calm on Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:48 pm

    Gift

    Another Syrian new Mi-24P "28*2" (probably 2862) - ex Russian "40" yellow

    Ru


    Now SAA

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  T-47 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:13 pm

    But RuAF should use Yak-130 in Syria for combat testing.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:39 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:So who will pay for delivery? And Syria doesn't have money for such modifications. I think in realistic terms it would be more likely that Yak -130 be senice than L-39 which are on the verge of being scrapped. Russia would gain absolutely nothing from sending them = fact. While yak-130 would gain sales and improvements if you go by current trend if Russia using military equipment in Syria they have gained orders and equipment has gain improvements and problems have been identified = fact

    The gain of Russia sending L-39 would be the same that sending M-46, T-55 or T-62. Just the same. The procedure would be also just the same. Pretty realistic. In fact being done with many material that Russia is retiring.

    I do not see a realistic point talking about a variant of the Yak-130 that does not exist today. Need to be created first.
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    calm

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  calm on Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:02 pm

    LOL

    Exclusive
    3 Yak-130 were deployed to #Khmemeim AB with no #RuAF marks
    Might be a #SyAAF asset.


    https://twitter.com/WaelHussaini/status/896037041468719106

    wait for satelite imgs
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:24 pm

    calm wrote:LOL

    Exclusive
    3 Yak-130 were deployed to #Khmemeim AB with no #RuAF marks
    Might be a #SyAAF asset.


    https://twitter.com/WaelHussaini/status/896037041468719106

    wait for satelite imgs


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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:45 pm

    eehnie you still haven't answered who will pay for transport and the three other equipment you mentioned doesn't require modifications.
    L-39C after the mod would still be not that effective strafing runs and guess work dropping dumb bombs. As for the pic of yak-130 I hope it's true but that could have been taken anywhere so I wait for further evidence
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:06 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:eehnie you still haven't answered who will pay for transport and the three other equipment you mentioned doesn't require modifications.
    L-39C after the mod would still be not that effective strafing runs and guess work dropping dumb bombs. As for the pic of yak-130 I hope it's true but that could have been taken anywhere so I wait for further evidence

    The other equipment need sometimes reparations. And in the case of the M-46, it is being mounted on trucks, to make them self propelled. It was not explicitly answered before but my impression is that Russia is paying the transport to Syria of the material like it is, including the ammunition. Syria later pays the modifications they want to do to them and the paint. Not a bad deal for Syria being an option of minimum cost for Russia.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:25 am

    But still costing Russia. And maybe people on can confirm or not but I am sure that the yak -130 is already capable of using various weapons and has some targeting systems. But I could be wrong. And at every arms show the is always shown to be armed something that is a clear sign that without much work it could easily be ready for such functions. I don't think Russian companies would want to advertise something and then oh sorry we don't actually do that or can you give us 1 or 2 yrs and we might be ready for such a model. I believe yak -130 is ready for such operations
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:58 am

    In my opinion sending Su-25s makes rather more sense, it carries a better payload, can carry a much larger number of rockets for much heavier salvos and can carry a variety of bombs and gun pods too.

    It is also better protected from ground fire and can operate from rough air strips.

    I would say send Yak-130s and L-29s for trainer aircraft and Su-25 for actual ground attack operations... the way they were designed.

    The only advantage of the trainers is that they can be used for training pilots for ground strikes...


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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:10 pm

    Of course Su-25 are good for ground attack and have done well in Syria the reason to send yak -130 would be to showcase for potential export sales and fault finding in combat conditions like they have done with other aircraft. I don't think Russia has any L-29 in stock. But I am a big fan of Su-25 though

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:17 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:Of course Su-25 are good for ground attack and have done well in Syria the reason to send yak -130 would be to showcase for potential export sales and fault finding in combat conditions like they have done with other aircraft. I don't think Russia has any L-29 in stock. But I am a big fan of Su-25 though
    Agree, this is probably a field testing and sales promo operation. Yak-130 is a much much bigger and probably more profitable sales opportunity worldwide than the Su-25.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:39 pm

    If it is about marketing and sales then don't worry about it... Russian companies can pay for products to be tested and provide sample examples and support and donate it to Russian forces in Syria to use... they can provide camera crews etc so that the effects can be documented and the results can be conveyed back to Russia regarding any necessary potential changes and any successes or problems that might need attention.

    The Russian troops get to test new stuff, Russian companies get real world testing and real world experience to further improve their products and the data and footage to sell stuff.


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:50 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:But still costing Russia. And maybe people on can confirm or not but I am sure that the yak -130 is already capable of using various weapons and has some targeting systems. But I could be wrong. And at every arms show the is always shown to be armed something that is a clear sign that without much work it could easily be ready for such functions. I don't think Russian companies would want to advertise something and then oh sorry we don't actually do that or can you give us 1 or 2 yrs  and we might be ready for such a model. I believe yak -130 is ready for such operations

    For Russia it is the cost of the transport vs the cost of scrapping, that is superior. Also with the ammunition, since obviously the ammunition that has been going to Syria is the ammunition closer to the data of ending its service, and the transport to Syria also means to avoid the cost of dismantling the oldest ammunition.

    In the refered to the comments about the L-29, I also do not think is still present in the Russian Armed Forces, even in the reserve.

    Russia is affording by the right way the model of attrition war. The plan is being developed with minimum costs for Russia and this is key for sustained long term efforts.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:18 am

    Firstly I wasn't talking ammo. Maybe you missed it in my post scrapping L-39 won't cost Russia any money so the superior cost is transport. Scrapping L-39 doesn't cost them money because scrappage companies buy them from them then strip and various metals have different scrap prices some more expensive than others if it's not worth stripping they just crush and sell. Also there are companies who buy surplus equipment including L-39 and they sell them on to museums and private buyers for display. There was a Mi-24 for sale for 15,000 euros but not capable of flying of course. When I was in the forces the Mod were selling gazelle helis in flying condition for £25k-50k depending on individual condition. I can't remember exact date but was around 8-12 months ago Russia too was selling off around 14,000 pieces of equipment a lot was old trucks. Even when scrapping more sensitive aircraft military technicians will strip out sensitive parts before going for sale. The only things that really costs Russia to get rid of is anything nuclear and biological and chemical weapons for obvious reasons.

    Garryb I agree and we just have to look at the increased interest in Russian military products because of Syria and Russian MOD have already stated that many things have been learned from combat use in Syria and allows them to modify to fix any problems found. Sending L-39C would lose Russia money Syrian airforce wouldn't gain anything great and no experience or sales gained. But yak -130 would be allow combat experience a chance to sort any problems Russia would gain sales Syria would gain something great. Already today I read that because of Syria Russia has amended pilot training.

    https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/article/combat-training-russian-pilots-changed-light-syrian-war-military-official/

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