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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

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    airstrike

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  airstrike on Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:17 pm

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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:45 am

    calm wrote:ZU-23-2 23mm autocannon with  Ammunition in Hmeymim AB ready to airdrop for SAA garrison in Deir-Ezzor.



    Putin Orders Sending Mobile Hospitals to Assist Residents of Syria's Aleppo

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201611291047967338-russia-syria-aleppo-field/


    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to Aleppo in order to provide immediate medical assistance, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to provide immediate medical assistance to residents of Syria's embattled city of Aleppo and its neighborhoods, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday. "The president has ordered the Defense ministry and the Emergencies Ministry to send mobile hospitals to provide medical assistance to residents of Aleppo and nearby settlements," Peskov told reporters. According to Peskov, the Defense Ministry will send a special medical unit equipped with a multipurpose hospital for 100 patients, which has a children ward, while the Emergencies Ministry will send a mobile field hospital for 50 patients, which can also provide ambulatory treatment for some 200 people per day.

    Very interesting news. The ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are likely to be finished in Russia by this war, and maybe in Novorussia too.
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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:20 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    calm wrote:ZU-23-2 23mm autocannon with  Ammunition in Hmeymim AB ready to airdrop for SAA garrison in Deir-Ezzor.



    Putin Orders Sending Mobile Hospitals to Assist Residents of Syria's Aleppo

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201611291047967338-russia-syria-aleppo-field/


    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to Aleppo in order to provide immediate medical assistance, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to provide immediate medical assistance to residents of Syria's embattled city of Aleppo and its neighborhoods, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday. "The president has ordered the Defense ministry and the Emergencies Ministry to send mobile hospitals to provide medical assistance to residents of Aleppo and nearby settlements," Peskov told reporters. According to Peskov, the Defense Ministry will send a special medical unit equipped with a multipurpose hospital for 100 patients, which has a children ward, while the Emergencies Ministry will send a mobile field hospital for 50 patients, which can also provide ambulatory treatment for some 200 people per day.

    Very interesting news. The ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are likely to be finished in Russia by this war, and maybe in Novorussia too.

    the ZU-23-2 will be around for long while its very useful and no replacement planned and its still being produced and Vasilek is very unique design so might hang around longer than you think and we have to ask how many is actually left in storage on both items
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:14 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    calm wrote:ZU-23-2 23mm autocannon with  Ammunition in Hmeymim AB ready to airdrop for SAA garrison in Deir-Ezzor.



    Putin Orders Sending Mobile Hospitals to Assist Residents of Syria's Aleppo

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201611291047967338-russia-syria-aleppo-field/


    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to Aleppo in order to provide immediate medical assistance, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to provide immediate medical assistance to residents of Syria's embattled city of Aleppo and its neighborhoods, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday. "The president has ordered the Defense ministry and the Emergencies Ministry to send mobile hospitals to provide medical assistance to residents of Aleppo and nearby settlements," Peskov told reporters. According to Peskov, the Defense Ministry will send a special medical unit equipped with a multipurpose hospital for 100 patients, which has a children ward, while the Emergencies Ministry will send a mobile field hospital for 50 patients, which can also provide ambulatory treatment for some 200 people per day.

    Very interesting news. The ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are likely to be finished in Russia by this war, and maybe in Novorussia too.

    the ZU-23-2 will be around for long while its very useful and no replacement planned and its still being produced and Vasilek is very unique design so might hang around longer than you think and we have to ask how many is actually left in storage on both items

    If the production of the ZU-23-2 continues is not for internal procurement. It is more for export.

    Russia has lots of self propelled "successors" of the ZU-23-2. All them more powerful than the ZU-23-2. The ZSU-23-4 can be considered the first "successor" (technologically) of the ZU-23-2.

    Neither Russia or Novorrussia need today to mount ZU-23-2 on trucks to cover the role of this weapon in the war of Syria.

    I tend to think that even South Ossetia and Abkhazia will send their oldest weapons to Syria, including this one.

    And for the 2B9 Vasilek of 82mm, its high weight makes them significantly more difficult to move than the current bench of lighter portable/man-portable mortars of 82mm (2B14, 2B24 and 2B25) and 120mm (2B11 2S12 Sani and 2B23). Again no reason to keep them having better options and with a need of procurement for Syria. Do you know when its production stopped? Late 1970s, early 1980s? I'm not sure.



    Last edited by eehnie on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:09 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    calm wrote:ZU-23-2 23mm autocannon with  Ammunition in Hmeymim AB ready to airdrop for SAA garrison in Deir-Ezzor.



    Putin Orders Sending Mobile Hospitals to Assist Residents of Syria's Aleppo

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201611291047967338-russia-syria-aleppo-field/


    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to Aleppo in order to provide immediate medical assistance, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to provide immediate medical assistance to residents of Syria's embattled city of Aleppo and its neighborhoods, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday. "The president has ordered the Defense ministry and the Emergencies Ministry to send mobile hospitals to provide medical assistance to residents of Aleppo and nearby settlements," Peskov told reporters. According to Peskov, the Defense Ministry will send a special medical unit equipped with a multipurpose hospital for 100 patients, which has a children ward, while the Emergencies Ministry will send a mobile field hospital for 50 patients, which can also provide ambulatory treatment for some 200 people per day.

    Very interesting news. The ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are likely to be finished in Russia by this war, and maybe in Novorussia too.

    the ZU-23-2 will be around for long while its very useful and no replacement planned and its still being produced and Vasilek is very unique design so might hang around longer than you think and we have to ask how many is actually left in storage on both items

    If the production of the ZU-23-2 continues is not for internal procurement. It is more for export.

    Russia has lots of self propelled "successors" of the ZU-23-2. All them more powerful than the ZU-23-2. The ZSU-23-4 can be considered the first "successor" (technologically) of the ZU-23-2.

    Neither Russia or Novorrussia need today to mount ZU-23-2 on trucks to cover the role of this weapon in the war of Syria.

    I tend to think that even South Ossetia and Abkhazia will send their oldest weapons to Syria, including this one.

    And for the 2B9 Vasilek, its high weight makes them significantly more difficult to move than the current bench of portable/man-portable mortars of calibers until 120mm (like the 2B12 or the 2B23) while the 2B9 is of 82mm. Again no reason to keep them having better options and with a need of procurement for Syria. Do you know when its production stopped? Late 1970s, early 1980s?

    not sure when the 2B9 stopped production but i do know it operates differently to a standard due to the fact its automatic and fires clips of 4x82mm which has its own advantages and when mounted on MT-LB the weight doesn't become an issue, Airborne forces still use it. As for the ZU-23-2 this is still popular due to recent upgrades such as ZU-23/ZOM1 and its various versionsthis makes for reasonable air defence that can be towed by small truck or 4x4, or even mounted on some other vehicle, it can be air dropped from small aircraft, where we actually see the reduction of the ZSU-23-4 in service, as the 23-4 is mounted on an older chassis of T-55/54 which makes it heavy, greater operating cost, it won't be air dropped, and the turrets protection is a problem, and the chassis is no longer prodcued, so if a country wants ZSU-23-4 it will be old stock were they can buy new 23-2 and mount it on what ever they want, its more versatile. Also the 23-2 is also mounted on the BTR-D which currently is still in use. Also Russia must have 1,000's of them as well as ammo for them. As for South Ossetia and Abkhazia they are not in a position to be giving anything away yet they need everything they have in till Russia starts donating or they are fully absorbed into Russia (officially part of Russia) then they will get better equipment. But anyway i think this is going off topic now, dont get me wrong i love talking about older equipment and future upgrades and uses as you well know from other topics i have posted.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:49 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    calm wrote:ZU-23-2 23mm autocannon with  Ammunition in Hmeymim AB ready to airdrop for SAA garrison in Deir-Ezzor.



    Putin Orders Sending Mobile Hospitals to Assist Residents of Syria's Aleppo

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201611291047967338-russia-syria-aleppo-field/


    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to Aleppo in order to provide immediate medical assistance, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to provide immediate medical assistance to residents of Syria's embattled city of Aleppo and its neighborhoods, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday. "The president has ordered the Defense ministry and the Emergencies Ministry to send mobile hospitals to provide medical assistance to residents of Aleppo and nearby settlements," Peskov told reporters. According to Peskov, the Defense Ministry will send a special medical unit equipped with a multipurpose hospital for 100 patients, which has a children ward, while the Emergencies Ministry will send a mobile field hospital for 50 patients, which can also provide ambulatory treatment for some 200 people per day.

    Very interesting news. The ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are likely to be finished in Russia by this war, and maybe in Novorussia too.

    the ZU-23-2 will be around for long while its very useful and no replacement planned and its still being produced and Vasilek is very unique design so might hang around longer than you think and we have to ask how many is actually left in storage on both items

    If the production of the ZU-23-2 continues is not for internal procurement. It is more for export.

    Russia has lots of self propelled "successors" of the ZU-23-2. All them more powerful than the ZU-23-2. The ZSU-23-4 can be considered the first "successor" (technologically) of the ZU-23-2.

    Neither Russia or Novorrussia need today to mount ZU-23-2 on trucks to cover the role of this weapon in the war of Syria.

    I tend to think that even South Ossetia and Abkhazia will send their oldest weapons to Syria, including this one.

    And for the 2B9 Vasilek, its high weight makes them significantly more difficult to move than the current bench of portable/man-portable mortars of calibers until 120mm (like the 2B12 or the 2B23) while the 2B9 is of 82mm. Again no reason to keep them having better options and with a need of procurement for Syria. Do you know when its production stopped? Late 1970s, early 1980s?

    not sure when the 2B9 stopped production but i do know it operates differently to a standard due to the fact its automatic and fires clips of 4x82mm which has its own advantages and when mounted on MT-LB the weight doesn't become an issue, Airborne forces still use it. As for the ZU-23-2 this is still popular due to recent upgrades such as ZU-23/ZOM1 and its various versionsthis makes for reasonable air defence that can be towed by small truck or 4x4, or even mounted on some other vehicle, it can be air dropped from small aircraft, where we actually see the reduction of the ZSU-23-4 in service, as the 23-4 is mounted on an older chassis of T-55/54 which makes it heavy, greater operating cost, it won't be air dropped, and the turrets protection is a problem, and the chassis is no longer prodcued, so if a country wants ZSU-23-4 it will be old stock were they can buy new 23-2 and mount it on what ever they want, its more versatile. Also the 23-2 is also mounted on the BTR-D which currently is still in use. Also Russia must have 1,000's of them as well as ammo for them. As for South Ossetia and Abkhazia they are not in a position to be giving anything away yet they need everything they have in till Russia starts donating or they are fully absorbed into Russia (officially part of Russia) then they will get better equipment. But anyway i think this is going off topic now, dont get me wrong i love talking about older equipment and future upgrades and uses as you well know from other topics i have posted.

    Of course the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are good weapons, they remained long for some reason. I'm not of those that despise old warfare, as you know (I like too these topics). It is necessary to read my comments in relative terms, comparing these weapons with the rest of heavy warfare present in the Russian armed forces.

    As example, while I like the MT-LB more than other veteran platforms, like the old BMD platform, surely between the MT-LB with 120mm 2B11 mounted, a 2S9 also of 120mm and a MT-LB with a 82mm 2B9 mounted, the last would be the weakest option. The clip also is interesting compared to light mortars, but every self propelled piece would be over this level and would be of heavier caliber.

    Today the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are the 2 weakest heavy weapons which use by the Russian armed forces has been documented since the begin of 2014. Then the procurement of the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 to Syria, and its replacement in Russia by stronger weapons, is a natural step for Russia. The presence and use of older artillery pieces like the M-30, D-20, D-1, M-46,... has not been documented since earlier, and also the procurement of these pieces to Syria would be a natural step if they are available still in Russia, something that I doubt.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:07 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    Today the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are the 2 weakest heavy weapons which use by the Russian armed forces has been documented since the begin of 2014. Then the procurement of the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 to Syria, and its replacement in Russia by stronger weapons, is a natural step for Russia. The presence and use of older artillery pieces like the M-30, D-20, D-1, M-46,... has not been documented since earlier, and also the procurement of these pieces to Syria would be a natural step if they are available still in Russia, something that I doubt.
    John's advanced English lesson number 17.

    I realise that you are not a native English speaker so could I respectively suggest that the use of 'procurement' in the above para is wrong. Procurement is a posh word for purchasing, in this context the words 'supply' or 'sale' would be more appropriate.
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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:33 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    calm wrote:ZU-23-2 23mm autocannon with  Ammunition in Hmeymim AB ready to airdrop for SAA garrison in Deir-Ezzor.



    Putin Orders Sending Mobile Hospitals to Assist Residents of Syria's Aleppo

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201611291047967338-russia-syria-aleppo-field/


    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to Aleppo in order to provide immediate medical assistance, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to provide immediate medical assistance to residents of Syria's embattled city of Aleppo and its neighborhoods, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday. "The president has ordered the Defense ministry and the Emergencies Ministry to send mobile hospitals to provide medical assistance to residents of Aleppo and nearby settlements," Peskov told reporters. According to Peskov, the Defense Ministry will send a special medical unit equipped with a multipurpose hospital for 100 patients, which has a children ward, while the Emergencies Ministry will send a mobile field hospital for 50 patients, which can also provide ambulatory treatment for some 200 people per day.

    Very interesting news. The ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are likely to be finished in Russia by this war, and maybe in Novorussia too.

    the ZU-23-2 will be around for long while its very useful and no replacement planned and its still being produced and Vasilek is very unique design so might hang around longer than you think and we have to ask how many is actually left in storage on both items

    If the production of the ZU-23-2 continues is not for internal procurement. It is more for export.

    Russia has lots of self propelled "successors" of the ZU-23-2. All them more powerful than the ZU-23-2. The ZSU-23-4 can be considered the first "successor" (technologically) of the ZU-23-2.

    Neither Russia or Novorrussia need today to mount ZU-23-2 on trucks to cover the role of this weapon in the war of Syria.

    I tend to think that even South Ossetia and Abkhazia will send their oldest weapons to Syria, including this one.

    And for the 2B9 Vasilek, its high weight makes them significantly more difficult to move than the current bench of portable/man-portable mortars of calibers until 120mm (like the 2B12 or the 2B23) while the 2B9 is of 82mm. Again no reason to keep them having better options and with a need of procurement for Syria. Do you know when its production stopped? Late 1970s, early 1980s?

    not sure when the 2B9 stopped production but i do know it operates differently to a standard due to the fact its automatic and fires clips of 4x82mm which has its own advantages and when mounted on MT-LB the weight doesn't become an issue, Airborne forces still use it. As for the ZU-23-2 this is still popular due to recent upgrades such as ZU-23/ZOM1 and its various versionsthis makes for reasonable air defence that can be towed by small truck or 4x4, or even mounted on some other vehicle, it can be air dropped from small aircraft, where we actually see the reduction of the ZSU-23-4 in service, as the 23-4 is mounted on an older chassis of T-55/54 which makes it heavy, greater operating cost, it won't be air dropped, and the turrets protection is a problem, and the chassis is no longer prodcued, so if a country wants ZSU-23-4 it will be old stock were they can buy new 23-2 and mount it on what ever they want, its more versatile. Also the 23-2 is also mounted on the BTR-D which currently is still in use. Also Russia must have 1,000's of them as well as ammo for them. As for South Ossetia and Abkhazia they are not in a position to be giving anything away yet they need everything they have in till Russia starts donating or they are fully absorbed into Russia (officially part of Russia) then they will get better equipment. But anyway i think this is going off topic now, dont get me wrong i love talking about older equipment and future upgrades and uses as you well know from other topics i have posted.

    Of course the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are good weapons, they remained long for some reason. I'm not of those that despise old warfare, as you know (I like too these topics). It is necessary to read my comments in relative terms, comparing these weapons with the rest of heavy warfare present in the Russian armed forces.

    As example, while I like the MT-LB more than other veteran platforms, like the old BMD platform, surely between the MT-LB with 120mm 2B11 mounted, a 2S9 also of 120mm and a MT-LB with a 82mm 2B9 mounted, the last would be the weakest option. The clip also is interesting compared to light mortars, but every self propelled piece would be over this level and would be of heavier caliber.

    Today the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are the 2 weakest heavy weapons which use by the Russian armed forces has been documented since the begin of 2014. Then the procurement of the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 to Syria, and its replacement in Russia by stronger weapons, is a natural step for Russia. The presence and use of older artillery pieces like the M-30, D-20, D-1, M-46,... has not been documented since earlier, and also the procurement of these pieces to Syria would be a natural step if they are available still in Russia, something that I doubt.

    well if your talking about power etc then we could say why not get rid of 120mm and have the 160mm and 240mm as both are in Russian storage/inventory?? certain rounds/shells are useful for certain types of warfare, and we have to remember the 82mm mortar round is still being used within the army, being used with the 2B14 Podnos which i believe is still in production (if Russia or any customer wants it). The advantage of the 2B9 is the fact you can fire off 4 rounds in about 2 seconds and the 2B9 has both indirect and direct fire capability which the 2B14 and other stand alone mortars don't have, hence there is an anti armour round available for it. There is a good article telling you about the use of artillery in Afghan, called "Artillery and Counterinsurgency: The Soviet Experience in Afghanistan"
    http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/arty/arty.htm

    also video of 2B9 in eastern Ukraine which i am sure you might have seen already.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwyFCWmpiUk

    and in syria
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZrTovgWqEc

    and training video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGtS0157_0

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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:46 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    calm wrote:ZU-23-2 23mm autocannon with  Ammunition in Hmeymim AB ready to airdrop for SAA garrison in Deir-Ezzor.



    Putin Orders Sending Mobile Hospitals to Assist Residents of Syria's Aleppo

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201611291047967338-russia-syria-aleppo-field/


    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to Aleppo in order to provide immediate medical assistance, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered sending mobile field hospitals to provide immediate medical assistance to residents of Syria's embattled city of Aleppo and its neighborhoods, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Tuesday. "The president has ordered the Defense ministry and the Emergencies Ministry to send mobile hospitals to provide medical assistance to residents of Aleppo and nearby settlements," Peskov told reporters. According to Peskov, the Defense Ministry will send a special medical unit equipped with a multipurpose hospital for 100 patients, which has a children ward, while the Emergencies Ministry will send a mobile field hospital for 50 patients, which can also provide ambulatory treatment for some 200 people per day.

    Very interesting news. The ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are likely to be finished in Russia by this war, and maybe in Novorussia too.

    the ZU-23-2 will be around for long while its very useful and no replacement planned and its still being produced and Vasilek is very unique design so might hang around longer than you think and we have to ask how many is actually left in storage on both items

    If the production of the ZU-23-2 continues is not for internal procurement. It is more for export.

    Russia has lots of self propelled "successors" of the ZU-23-2. All them more powerful than the ZU-23-2. The ZSU-23-4 can be considered the first "successor" (technologically) of the ZU-23-2.

    Neither Russia or Novorrussia need today to mount ZU-23-2 on trucks to cover the role of this weapon in the war of Syria.

    I tend to think that even South Ossetia and Abkhazia will send their oldest weapons to Syria, including this one.

    And for the 2B9 Vasilek, its high weight makes them significantly more difficult to move than the current bench of portable/man-portable mortars of calibers until 120mm (like the 2B12 or the 2B23) while the 2B9 is of 82mm. Again no reason to keep them having better options and with a need of procurement for Syria. Do you know when its production stopped? Late 1970s, early 1980s?

    not sure when the 2B9 stopped production but i do know it operates differently to a standard due to the fact its automatic and fires clips of 4x82mm which has its own advantages and when mounted on MT-LB the weight doesn't become an issue, Airborne forces still use it. As for the ZU-23-2 this is still popular due to recent upgrades such as ZU-23/ZOM1 and its various versionsthis makes for reasonable air defence that can be towed by small truck or 4x4, or even mounted on some other vehicle, it can be air dropped from small aircraft, where we actually see the reduction of the ZSU-23-4 in service, as the 23-4 is mounted on an older chassis of T-55/54 which makes it heavy, greater operating cost, it won't be air dropped, and the turrets protection is a problem, and the chassis is no longer prodcued, so if a country wants ZSU-23-4 it will be old stock were they can buy new 23-2 and mount it on what ever they want, its more versatile. Also the 23-2 is also mounted on the BTR-D which currently is still in use. Also Russia must have 1,000's of them as well as ammo for them. As for South Ossetia and Abkhazia they are not in a position to be giving anything away yet they need everything they have in till Russia starts donating or they are fully absorbed into Russia (officially part of Russia) then they will get better equipment. But anyway i think this is going off topic now, dont get me wrong i love talking about older equipment and future upgrades and uses as you well know from other topics i have posted.

    Of course the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are good weapons, they remained long for some reason. I'm not of those that despise old warfare, as you know (I like too these topics). It is necessary to read my comments in relative terms, comparing these weapons with the rest of heavy warfare present in the Russian armed forces.

    As example, while I like the MT-LB more than other veteran platforms, like the old BMD platform, surely between the MT-LB with 120mm 2B11 mounted, a 2S9 also of 120mm and a MT-LB with a 82mm 2B9 mounted, the last would be the weakest option. The clip also is interesting compared to light mortars, but every self propelled piece would be over this level and would be of heavier caliber.

    Today the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are the 2 weakest heavy weapons which use by the Russian armed forces has been documented since the begin of 2014. Then the procurement of the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 to Syria, and its replacement in Russia by stronger weapons, is a natural step for Russia. The presence and use of older artillery pieces like the M-30, D-20, D-1, M-46,... has not been documented since earlier, and also the procurement of these pieces to Syria would be a natural step if they are available still in Russia, something that I doubt.

    well if your talking about power etc then we could say why not get rid of 120mm and have the 160mm and 240mm as both are in Russian storage/inventory?? certain rounds/shells are useful for certain types of warfare, and we have to remember the 82mm mortar round is still being used within the army, being used with the 2B14 Podnos which i believe is still in production (if Russia or any customer wants it). The advantage of the 2B9 is the fact you can fire off 4 rounds in about 2 seconds and the 2B9 has both indirect and direct fire capability which the 2B14 and other stand alone mortars don't have, hence there is an anti armour round available for it. There is a good article telling you about the use of artillery in Afghan, called "Artillery and Counterinsurgency: The Soviet Experience in Afghanistan"
    http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/arty/arty.htm

    also video of 2B9 in eastern Ukraine which i am sure you might have seen already.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwyFCWmpiUk

    and in syria
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZrTovgWqEc

    and training video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geGtS0157_0


    This is not the point, while sometimes can be coincident I'm not talking about firepower, I'm talking more about power or weakess in terms of design. It is an overall view about every type of warfare mentioned.

    The process of adding new modern warfare and eliminating the weakest/less modern warfare is a natural process, is part of the continuous process of improvement.

    Doing the exercice of indentifying which are the weakest designs of warfare over portable/man-portable size, present today in the Russian armed forces, I come to the conclussion that are the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek. Their weaknesses compared to other warfare are basically:

    - A weight that makes them towed weapons, which means to have not own mobility and to be not portable/man-portable. To move them you need weapon+vehicle.
    - A lack of protection for their crews while are used.
    - A lower fire power compared to the weapons of (at least) their weight+role.

    If you try to see which are the weakest heavy weapons present in the Russian Armed Forces maybe you can reach to the same conclussion.

    If you reach not the same conclussion, it would be interesting to know which would be the heavy weight combat warfare in the Russian Armed Forces, that you see weaker than the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 (including not the non-combat vehicles for transport). Note that as commented, I do not think warfare like the M-30, D-20, D-1, M-46, M-160, ML-20, B-4M or the S-60 are at this point present if the Russian Armed Forces (if you say them we would agree).


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:12 am; edited 5 times in total
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    zorobabel

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  zorobabel on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:01 pm

    Aleppo, yesterday and today:



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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:27 am

    The ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 Vasilek are likely to be finished in Russia by this war, and maybe in Novorussia too.

    Really don't understand what you have against such weapons... both can still do the jobs they were designed to do...

    Russia has lots of self propelled "successors" of the ZU-23-2. All them more powerful than the ZU-23-2. The ZSU-23-4 can be considered the first "successor" (technologically) of the ZU-23-2.

    Wrong.

    The ZSU-23-4 are not even related to ZU-23-2. They entered service only a couple of years apart.... the ZSU-23-4 replaced the ZSU-57-2.

    The ZU-23-2 cannot be replaced with a ZSU-23-4 just like a Sprut can't be replaced by a T-90.

    And for the 2B9 Vasilek of 82mm, its high weight makes them significantly more difficult to move than the current bench of lighter portable/man-portable mortars of 82mm (2B14, 2B24 and 2B25) and 120mm (2B11 2S12 Sani and 2B23).

    The Vasilek has wheels and can move as quickly as the vehicle towing it... which is much faster than a man portable 82mm mortar...

    Then the procurement of the ZU-23-2 and the 2B9 to Syria, and its replacement in Russia by stronger weapons, is a natural step for Russia.

    To actually replace those two systems you would need a comparable system... ie for the ZU-23-2 the only replacement system I have ever seen would be the trailer mount for a single twin barrel 2A38M 30mm cannon that had four laser beam riding SOSNA-R missiles mounted on it.

    For the Vasilek the only viable replacement would be the new 57mm grenade launcher that has not yet entered service AFAIK.


    - A weight that makes them towed weapons, which means to have not own mobility and to be not portable/man-portable. To move them you need weapon+vehicle.

    The Russian military is fully mechanised... towing vehicles would not be a problem.

    - A lack of protection for their crews while are used.

    You are thinking of the ZU-23-2 as a weaker version of the ZSU-23-4. It is actually a rather more powerful HMG. That is how it is used these days.

    Most light mortars are crew served weapons that are small and light and portable in terms of protection the Vasilek is no less well protected than any western 82mm equivalents... but has enormous advantages in fire power.

    - A lower fire power compared to the weapons of (at least) their weight+role.

    Wrong. The western equivalent of the ZU-23 is a 50 cal HMG or a 40mm grenade launcher which are not more mobile than the ZU-23 and have rather less power and range.

    In terms of the Vasilek a Russian team can arrive to a firing position, set up and fire 32 rounds and leave before a western 82mm mortar has even gotten into position...

    The only comparable western system would be a 60mm french Brandt auto mortar mount.... and how often do you see those?

    The simple fact is that some weapons are useful for all sorts of purposes and some age quickly.

    A case in point is the anti tank rifle and towed light anti tank gun... the soviets had 14.5mm rifles and 45mm towed guns. Well after they were ineffective against enemy armour they continued in widespread use because for some targets a powerful high velocity round was useful. With the 45mm gun HE shells made them even more useful.

    The ZU-23-2 is just such a weapon... useful gate guard or for directing streams of heavy shells at a target that is being difficult. Recoilless Rifles can perform a similar role but the devastating effect of high velocity 23mm cannon shells coming through the front of your truck or light APC is not the same as anything else... remember the ZU-23 fires 23 x 152mm shells with high velocity and heavy projectiles for its calibre.

    where we actually see the reduction of the ZSU-23-4 in service, as the 23-4 is mounted on an older chassis of T-55/54 which makes it heavy, greater o

    The ZSU-57-2 had the T-55 chassis... the chassis for the ZSU-23-4 was based on the the same chassis the PT-76 was made from... a GM class chassis similar to the chassis for the 2S3 and Tunguska, and TOR...


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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  eehnie on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:35 am

    When someone fails to see the technological relation between the ZU-23-2 and the ZSU-23-4 and how a weapon and its selfpropelled variant can afford the same adversaries, we have the previous comment.

    Well even wikipedia explains very easily the technological relation between both, and why I used the word successor between "":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZU-23-2 wrote:The ZU-23-2 was developed in the late 1950s. It was designed to engage low-flying targets at a range of 2.5 km as well as armoured vehicles at a range of two kilometres (km) and for direct defense of troops and strategic locations against air assault usually conducted by helicopters and low-flying airplanes.[2] In 1955, KBP presented the single-barrel ZU-1 and the twin-barrel ZU-14. While the former was eventually dropped, the ZU-14 was selected and, after some modifications, entered series production.

    In the Soviet Union, some 140,000 units were produced. The ZU-23 has also been produced under license by Bulgaria,[3] Poland, Egypt[4] and the People's Republic of China.[5]

    Development of this weapon into a self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG) led to the ZSU-23-4 Shilka.

    Both fire exactly the same ammunition, and you say the ZSU-23-4 is weaker than the ZU-23-2, well let me laugh, please.

    Another important mistake of the previous comment:

    GarryB wrote:The Vasilek has wheels and can move as quickly as the vehicle towing it... which is much faster than a man portable 82mm mortar...

    This is not right. If fact the reality is just the contrary. The man-portable mortar reachs the same speed of the vehicle where the mortar and the man travel. Towed weapons affect strongly to the speed of the vehicle that carry them, and impose to the tractor vehicle their own (lower) speed limit. And not only affect to the speed, also affect strongly to the maneuverability.

    Finally a little comment:

    GarryB wrote:Wrong. The western equivalent of the ZU-23 is a 50 cal HMG or a 40mm grenade launcher which are not more mobile than the ZU-23 and have rather less power and range.

    In terms of the Vasilek a Russian team can arrive to a firing position, set up and fire 32 rounds and leave before a western 82mm mortar has even gotten into position...

    The only comparable western system would be a 60mm french Brandt auto mortar mount.... and how often do you see those?

    My comment was refered to the Russian warfare present in the Russian Armed Forces. Not wrong.

    Note that your last quote is not mine. I do not know if you are trying to intoxicate or what.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    AK-Rex

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  AK-Rex on Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:31 am

    Russian Su-33 crashed in the Mediterranean while attempting to land on Kuznetsov aircraft carrier

    Less than three weeks after losing a MiG-29, it looks like the Russian Navy has lost another aircraft during Admiral Kuznetsov operations: a Su-33 Flanker.

    Military sources close to The Aviationist report that a Russian Navy Su-33 Flanker carrier-based multirole aircraft has crashed during flight operations from Admiral Kuznetsov on Saturday, Dec. 3.

    According to the report, the combat plane crashed at its second attempt to land on the aircraft carrier in good weather conditions (visibility +10 kilometers, Sea State 4, wind at 12 knots): it seems that it missed the wires and failed to go around falling short of the bow of the warship.

    The pilot successfully ejected and was picked up by a Russian Navy search and rescue helicopter.

    Considered that on Nov. 14 a MiG-29K crashed while recovering to the aircraft carrier, if confirmed this would be the second loss for the air wing embarked on Admiral Kuznetsov in less than three weeks and a significant blow for the Russian Naval Aviation during its combat deployment off Syria.

    https://theaviationist.com/2016/12/05/russian-su-33-crashed-in-the-mediterranean-while-attempting-to-land-on-kuznetsov-aircraft-carrier/
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    calm

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  calm on Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:47 pm

    Russian military hospital set up 4 civilians from E #Aleppo attacked this morning. 1 Russian doc killed 2 nurses injured. due 2 open 2moro
    https://twitter.com/LizziePhelan/status/805750051200843776?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:52 pm



    Aftermath footage, NSFW.

    Also it should have been better edited as it airs delays for SA guidelines.

    There is talk of very accurate targeting facilitated by press reports on Twitter and some hints by the Russian command.
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    Khepesh

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  Khepesh on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:26 pm

    More than hints about this. Konashenkov made a very strong statement, and while saying the actual attack was by terrorists and saying that it is understood where the accurate information and co-ordinates came from, directly accused America, Britain and France saying that they are the patrons of terrorists and that the blood of our soldiers is on their hands.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:37 pm

    Khepesh wrote:More than hints about this. Konashenkov made a very strong statement, and while saying the actual attack was by terrorists and saying that it is understood where the accurate information and co-ordinates came from, directly accused America, Britain and France saying that they are the patrons of terrorists and that the blood of our soldiers is on their hands.

    Fact is that they should have never allowed "Western Press" nearby the actual facility. Rest in Peace to the Doctor. I hope this get some follow up because we're clearly going on a bad path right here.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:41 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Khepesh wrote:More than hints about this. Konashenkov made a very strong statement, and while saying the actual attack was by terrorists and saying that it is understood where the accurate information and co-ordinates came from, directly accused America, Britain and France saying that they are the patrons of terrorists and that the blood of our soldiers is on their hands.

    Fact is that they should have never allowed "Western Press" nearby the actual facility. Rest in Peace to the Doctor. I hope this get some follow up because we're clearly going on a bad path right here.

    I thought doctor was wounded and that nurse died.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:58 pm

    Thanks mainly to the Syrian Express

    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — "A unique logistical system encompassing all types of transport used by the armed forces and commercial organizations was devised by the army to effectively supply material resources to Russian service personnel… As of today, over 710,000 tonnes of missiles, ammunition, fuels, provision and other resources have been delivered," Bulgakov told the Izvestia newspaper.

    Throughout the year, Russia' Hmeymim airbase saw the opening of three cafeterias, a centralized refueling station, two saunas, three warehouses of various designations, a platform for military transport aircraft and a helicopter pad, according to the deputy minister. Additionally, a military town with the corresponding infrastructure was built in the Mediterranean city of Tartus to service the S-300 missile system recently delivered to Syria, he added.

    Russia has been involved in the Syrian conflict since September 2015, when it started an anti-terrorist aerial campaign at the request of Syrian President Bashar Assad. The Hmeymim airbase became central to the campaign, while the Tartus naval facility has been operated by Russia for decades.

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201612051048164573-russia-delivers-supplies/
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:02 pm

    Bastards.

    Militants shelled a mobile Russian hospital in Aleppo, killing a female paramedic and wounding two doctors, the Russian Defense Ministry's spokesman Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said Monday.

    "Today during an appointment of local residents, militants attacked with artillery the Defense Ministry medical facility's mobile hospital in Aleppo. As a result of a direct hit, one Russian military paramedic was killed and two staff workers were badly wounded. Locals rushed to help and were also hurt," he said.

    Noting that, as Western colleagues claim, all al-Nusra Front terrorists were cornered in Eastern Aleppo's southern part by the Syrian Army, Konashenkov said they were unable to deliver such precise fire. The spokesman underscored that militants of the Syrian "opposition" were "undoubtedly" behind the attack. "We know who provided the militants with information on the Russian hospital and its exact coordinates. Therefore it's not only the actual perpetrators who are responsible for murdering and wounding our medics who were administering aid to Aleppo children." "The hands of those who instigated this murder are also coated with the blood of our servicemen. Those who created, fed and armed those beats in human disguise, naming them 'opposition' for justification before their own conscience and voters. Yes, [this blood is on your hands], terrorists' patrons from the US, UK, France and their sympathizers," he said.

    Earlier in the day, RT said that Russian doctors were killed in rebel shelling of a hospital in Aleppo.

    Russian military medics have begun to consult the residents of Syrian Aleppo's eastern districts liberated from militants. They opened a clinic, a medical ward for children, a surgery department, an intensive care department, a laboratory and an x-ray room.


    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201612051048178821-shelling-kills-russian-medics-aleppo/
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:40 pm

    It gets worse, two now dead with the other really bad.

    One of the two Russian medics wounded by militants' shelling of a hospital in Aleppo has died, the Russian Defense Ministry's spokesman Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said on Monday. Doctors are fighting for the life of the second wounded medic, a pediatrician.

    "A [female] Russian military medic has died as a result of the injuries she sustained in 'opposition' militants' artillery shelling of the Defense Ministry's hospital in Aleppo," Konashenkov said. The doctors did their best to save her life but could not prevent her death. "But the severe wounds were fatal.

    At the moment the doctors are fighting for the life of their badly wounded colleague, a pediatrician" he said.


    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/world/201612051048187734-russian-medic-aleppo-dies/
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:54 pm

    I suspect that the Russian MoD is preparing a retaliatory strike.
    We may see Kalibrs, Kh-101s, Kh-55s and lots of activity from Hmeyim and Kuznetsov. Maybe even Iskander this time.

    par far

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  par far on Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:41 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:I suspect that the Russian MoD is preparing a retaliatory strike.
    We may see Kalibrs, Kh-101s, Kh-55s and lots of activity from Hmeyim and Kuznetsov. Maybe even Iskander this time.




    This should have been done before sending the mobile hospitals and medical crew.

    RIP to the nurses.
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    BKP

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  BKP on Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:46 pm

    AK-Rex wrote:Russian Su-33 crashed in the Mediterranean while attempting to land on Kuznetsov aircraft carrier

    Less than three weeks after losing a MiG-29, it looks like the Russian Navy has lost another aircraft during Admiral Kuznetsov operations: a Su-33 Flanker.

    Military sources close to The Aviationist report that a Russian Navy Su-33 Flanker carrier-based multirole aircraft has crashed during flight operations from Admiral Kuznetsov on Saturday, Dec. 3.

    According to the report, the combat plane crashed at its second attempt to land on the aircraft carrier in good weather conditions (visibility +10 kilometers, Sea State 4, wind at 12 knots): it seems that it missed the wires and failed to go around falling short of the bow of the warship.

    The pilot successfully ejected and was picked up by a Russian Navy search and rescue helicopter.

    Considered that on Nov. 14 a MiG-29K crashed while recovering to the aircraft carrier, if confirmed this would be the second loss for the air wing embarked on Admiral Kuznetsov in less than three weeks and a significant blow for the Russian Naval Aviation during its combat deployment off Syria.

    https://theaviationist.com/2016/12/05/russian-su-33-crashed-in-the-mediterranean-while-attempting-to-land-on-kuznetsov-aircraft-carrier/

    Anyone care to venture a guess as to what will become of the MiG and SU? Will they simply lay at the bottom of the sea intact or will they be targets of a demolition operation?
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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #11

    Post  OminousSpudd on Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:58 pm

    I'd wait for other sources or MoD to confirm first before jumping the gun on the Su-33. The Aviationist is usually full of it.

    RIP to the paramedics. If the US is involved in the intel for the strike, they better be held accountable. I hear they have some SOF operators in Northern Syria... With no air-cover...

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